As some of you may know from the other place, I've manage to mangle my
under-frame bracing gusset on the Harley. The underslung bolt-on
centrestand contacted a wobbly cattle grid with some enthusiasm.

In summary, it's been pushed back from the front edge, and torn at
least one of the two smaller welds that holds it the frame tube.

Imagine a plate, the width of the frame, secured by a 100mm weld at
the rear on each side, and a 15mm weld at the front. It's the 15mm
weld that's failed.

Now, I suspect it might struggle at MOT time with bits of frame
hanging loose, so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
with a bare frame.

That's quite a job, so I was wondering if I should get a cheap basic
welder of Ebay/Amazon/Toolstation, practice on some scrap for a few
days, then endeavour to tack this loose bit back together.

Plausible? Wise? Foolhardy? Alternatives?
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On 08/09/2021 12:59, Salad Dodger wrote:
>As some of you may know from the other place, I've manage to mangle my
>under-frame bracing gusset on the Harley. The underslung bolt-on
>centrestand contacted a wobbly cattle grid with some enthusiasm.
>
>In summary, it's been pushed back from the front edge, and torn at
>least one of the two smaller welds that holds it the frame tube.
>
>Imagine a plate, the width of the frame, secured by a 100mm weld at
>the rear on each side, and a 15mm weld at the front. It's the 15mm
>weld that's failed.
>
>Now, I suspect it might struggle at MOT time with bits of frame
>hanging loose, so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
>and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
>with a bare frame.
>
>That's quite a job, so I was wondering if I should get a cheap basic
>welder of Ebay/Amazon/Toolstation, practice on some scrap for a few
>days, then endeavour to tack this loose bit back together.
>
>Plausible? Wise? Foolhardy? Alternatives?

Welding is a useful skill. I have spent my whole life learning new skills.
I would go for it but ensure adequate ventilation, fire extinguishers, first
aid kit, easy access to phone with 999 keyed in
--
XV750SE & GS550T

On 9/8/2021 4:59 AM, Salad Dodger wrote:
> As some of you may know from the other place, I've manage to mangle my
> under-frame bracing gusset on the Harley. The underslung bolt-on
> centrestand contacted a wobbly cattle grid with some enthusiasm.
> ...
> Now, I suspect it might struggle at MOT time with bits of frame
> hanging loose, so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
> and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
> with a bare frame.
>
> That's quite a job, so I was wondering if I should get a cheap basic
> welder of Ebay/Amazon/Toolstation, practice on some scrap for a few
> days, then endeavour to tack this loose bit back together.
>
> Plausible? Wise? Foolhardy? Alternatives?
>
ICBW, but it looks like you'd need to pull the motor to do a good job. A
haphazard, sloppy one, OTOH...

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 05:43:13 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>ICBW, but it looks like you'd need to pull the motor to do a good job. A
>haphazard, sloppy one, OTOH...

I want a job where the tag is attached to the frame rail, covered in
shiny black paint, and dirt.
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On 8 Sep 2021 12:21:24 GMT, ChrisND <"chrisd@ukrm.net"> wrote:

>On 08/09/2021 12:59, Salad Dodger wrote:

>>That's quite a job, so I was wondering if I should get a cheap basic
>>welder of Ebay/Amazon/Toolstation, practice on some scrap for a few
>>days, then endeavour to tack this loose bit back together.

>Welding is a useful skill. I have spent my whole life learning new skills.
>I would go for it but ensure adequate ventilation, fire extinguishers, first
> aid kit, easy access to phone with 999 keyed in

I bought one such welder a few years ago for around 50 euros,
primarily to repair the exhaust on my ride-on mower (which stupid
design had it hanging from a welded on plate, guaranteed to rip under
the intense vibration, now welded up and also held in place with a
home-made bracket).

I've used it for a couple of other things since, but I must warn you -
it's really difficult to get a neat and tidy job. Maintaining the
correct distance for the arc in order to get a smooth finish is a
skill in itself, and not one I've managed to master to date. I'm sure
there are loads of folk who have, but don't just assume that if they
can do it, so can you... instead you should assume that you'll get
loads of weld all over the place and need to grind it bacl with an
angle grinder afterwards.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 08/09/2021 12:59, Salad Dodger wrote:
> As some of you may know from the other place, I've manage to mangle my
> under-frame bracing gusset on the Harley. The underslung bolt-on
> centrestand contacted a wobbly cattle grid with some enthusiasm.
>
> In summary, it's been pushed back from the front edge, and torn at
> least one of the two smaller welds that holds it the frame tube.
>
> Imagine a plate, the width of the frame, secured by a 100mm weld at
> the rear on each side, and a 15mm weld at the front. It's the 15mm
> weld that's failed.
>
> Now, I suspect it might struggle at MOT time with bits of frame
> hanging loose, so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
> and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
> with a bare frame.
>
> That's quite a job, so I was wondering if I should get a cheap basic
> welder of Ebay/Amazon/Toolstation, practice on some scrap for a few
> days, then endeavour to tack this loose bit back together.
>
> Plausible? Wise? Foolhardy? Alternatives?
>

Any close up pics? IMveryLE [1] it's easier to get a better finish with
a TIG welder than MIG or arc. How far over would the bike need to be to
get at it? I'm happy to give it a go if you fancy a ride out.

There are also rumours or ECUs etc. being damaged when welding on
vehicles but I've not experienced it.

[1] https://www.instagram.com/p/CN-29THBs8y is probably my best attempt
so far

--
/Simon

Salad Dodger <salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:
> As some of you may know from the other place, I've manage to mangle my
> under-frame bracing gusset on the Harley. The underslung bolt-on
> centrestand contacted a wobbly cattle grid with some enthusiasm.
>
> In summary, it's been pushed back from the front edge, and torn at
> least one of the two smaller welds that holds it the frame tube.

Just use a big hammer to whack it back into approximate shape
and ask you MOT guy if its a pass or fail.

--
http://www.netunix.com/

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:51:54 +0100, siwilson
<siwilson@nodamnspam.hotmail.com> wrote:

>Any close up pics? IMveryLE [1] it's easier to get a better finish with
>a TIG welder than MIG or arc. How far over would the bike need to be to
>get at it? I'm happy to give it a go if you fancy a ride out.

I always fancy a ride out - even if it's just for a "look see".
>
>There are also rumours or ECUs etc. being damaged when welding on
>vehicles but I've not experienced it.

The ECU would most definitely be unplugged for any such venture.
As would the main fuse, and possibly the battery.
>
>[1] https://www.instagram.com/p/CN-29THBs8y is probably my best attempt
>so far

Looks ideal! :-)
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On 08/09/2021 15:58, Salad Dodger wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:51:54 +0100, siwilson
> <siwilson@nodamnspam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Any close up pics? IMveryLE [1] it's easier to get a better finish with
>> a TIG welder than MIG or arc. How far over would the bike need to be to
>> get at it? I'm happy to give it a go if you fancy a ride out.
>
> I always fancy a ride out - even if it's just for a "look see".
>>

Ping me on whatever your favourite messaging app is or e-mail.

--
/Simon

On 9/8/2021 7:14 AM, crn@nospam.com wrote:
> Salad Dodger <salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:
>> As some of you may know from the other place, I've manage to mangle my
>> under-frame bracing gusset on the Harley. The underslung bolt-on
>> centrestand contacted a wobbly cattle grid with some enthusiasm.
>>
>> In summary, it's been pushed back from the front edge, and torn at
>> least one of the two smaller welds that holds it the frame tube.
>
> Just use a big hammer to whack it back into approximate shape
> and ask you MOT guy if its a pass or fail.
>
I'd think MC designers don't add extra metal just for the looks and
every bit has a function. The frame seems fairly important.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

Salad Dodger wrote:

> so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
> and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
> with a bare frame.

Find another welder. Try one of the "under the arches" type car places
or a light engineering, manufacturing workshop.

Years ago I had some centre stand welding on the Guzzi - the chap just
lay underneath it and fizzed away.

--
Simon

On 8 Sep 2021 15:55:20 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>Salad Dodger wrote:
>
>> so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
>> and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
>> with a bare frame.
>
>Find another welder. Try one of the "under the arches" type car places
>or a light engineering, manufacturing workshop.
>
>Years ago I had some centre stand welding on the Guzzi - the chap just
>lay underneath it and fizzed away.

I was told "you can't weld upside down" which I took to be
welder-speak for "I don't want to do it".

--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 12:59:37 +0100, Salad Dodger wrote:

> Now, I suspect it might struggle at MOT time with bits of frame hanging
> loose, so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
> and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them with
> a bare frame.

They don't want the liability. It's hard running a business now with the
safety culture in place, so, they want to do the job properly. You want a
basic repair.
Another more basic workshop may well be happy to do the small bit of
welding required. From what I recall, if it was raised on a stand, it
needs hammering back a bit, and then will need an inch or so of weld on
each side. Simple stuff really, but, the electrics should be
disconnected, there may be a fire risk, and the repair will never be as
good as the original.
I'd be trying another person who does welding, but, understands that they
could easily fry the electronics, so they need to take precautions.

> That's quite a job, so I was wondering if I should get a cheap basic
> welder of Ebay/Amazon/Toolstation, practice on some scrap for a few
> days, then endeavour to tack this loose bit back together.
>
> Plausible? Wise? Foolhardy? Alternatives?

Foolhardy. Welding is very difficult to start 'doing'. Especially when
upside down trying to get into the bottom of a bike frame with the engine
still in. The cheap welders are either arc, or the very cheap type of
MIG, both are not very good for such a repair.You need a good MIG, or,
better still, a TIG welder.
A good welder should be able to do it pretty cheaply, but, they need some
sort of lift. or a pit, to be able to comfortably reach the damaged area.
I doubt the original weld was very strong, if it was, it wouldnt have
pulled off, so it shouldnt take much to give the piece a bit of rigidity
to hold the frame tubes together, which I presume it is what it is for.

Salad Dodger <salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote in
news:209hjg115gdv19e4qca1ldcq92tigeti1u@4ax.com:

> As some of you may know from the other place, I've manage to mangle my
> under-frame bracing gusset on the Harley. The underslung bolt-on
> centrestand contacted a wobbly cattle grid with some enthusiasm.
>
> In summary, it's been pushed back from the front edge, and torn at
> least one of the two smaller welds that holds it the frame tube.
>
> Imagine a plate, the width of the frame, secured by a 100mm weld at
> the rear on each side, and a 15mm weld at the front. It's the 15mm
> weld that's failed.
>
> Now, I suspect it might struggle at MOT time with bits of frame
> hanging loose, so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
> and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
> with a bare frame.
>
> That's quite a job, so I was wondering if I should get a cheap basic
> welder of Ebay/Amazon/Toolstation, practice on some scrap for a few
> days, then endeavour to tack this loose bit back together.
>
> Plausible? Wise? Foolhardy? Alternatives?

you should have arranged a call to Bonwick's new workshop in the northern
provinces on your recent travails. If he can bodge a submarine or swing
bridge...

On 08/09/2021 16:57, Salad Dodger wrote:
> On 8 Sep 2021 15:55:20 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Salad Dodger wrote:
>>
>>> so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
>>> and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
>>> with a bare frame.
>>
>> Find another welder. Try one of the "under the arches" type car places
>> or a light engineering, manufacturing workshop.
>>
>> Years ago I had some centre stand welding on the Guzzi - the chap just
>> lay underneath it and fizzed away.
>
> I was told "you can't weld upside down" which I took to be
> welder-speak for "I don't want to do it".

you need a certain degree of nouse. upside down means spray transfer
otherwise all you get is blobs running down your sleeves.
Of course welding upside down CAN be done, otherwise how would all those
pipelines, ships, and submarines happen?

drain the fluids, tip it on its side and weld from the bottom up.
easy peasey
I welded my swingarm myself, but then that's not seen an MOT yet.

On 08/09/2021 17:43, Alan wrote:

> I doubt the original weld was very strong, if it was, it wouldnt have
> pulled off,

This is a good point, welds are generally harder than the parent
material, did the weld fail, or did the frame tear out next to the weld?

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:58:43 +0100, Salad Dodger
<salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:51:54 +0100, siwilson
><siwilson@nodamnspam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Any close up pics? IMveryLE [1] it's easier to get a better finish with
>>a TIG welder than MIG or arc. How far over would the bike need to be to
>>get at it? I'm happy to give it a go if you fancy a ride out.
>
>I always fancy a ride out - even if it's just for a "look see".
>>
>>There are also rumours or ECUs etc. being damaged when welding on
>>vehicles but I've not experienced it.
>
>The ECU would most definitely be unplugged for any such venture.
>As would the main fuse, and possibly the battery.

Also, connect the earth clamp near the weld site and route the cables
away from the frame - reduces stray inductance which might help. Watch
things like ABS as well: having watched Long Way Round recently, they
seemed to pop the ABS system doing a frame weld in one episode.

I'd go for MIG, actually: not as pretty as TIG perhaps, but a lot
cheaper - CO2 instead of Argon for steel, and provided the weld area
is spotlessly clean (which applies to all kinds of welding, really)
might be easier. They can be a bugger when the wire jams, though. In
theory, once set up, "just" point and squirt.

--

-Pip

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:53:39 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>you should have arranged a call to Bonwick's new workshop in the northern
>provinces on your recent travails. If he can bodge a submarine or swing
>bridge...

No, we're talking heavy engineering here.

--

-Pip

Salad Dodger wrote:

> I was told "you can't weld upside down" which I took to be
> welder-speak for "I don't want to do it".

How did all the MOT plates get welded to the underside of the POS cars
I've had over the years...

--
Simon

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 20:24:12 +0100, cat <cat@where.here> wrote:

>> I was told "you can't weld upside down" which I took to be
>> welder-speak for "I don't want to do it".
>
>you need a certain degree of nouse. upside down means spray transfer
>otherwise all you get is blobs running down your sleeves.
>Of course welding upside down CAN be done, otherwise how would all those
>pipelines, ships, and submarines happen?

Where's Bonwick when you need him?
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:38:48 PM UTC+1, Turby wrote:

> I'd think MC designers don't add extra metal just for the looks and
> every bit has a function.

It's a Harley. HTH, HAND, etc.

--
WUN

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:denjjgtvlt05e920eovj7bddvhoquuf50d@
4ax.com:

> On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 20:24:12 +0100, cat <cat@where.here> wrote:
>
>>> I was told "you can't weld upside down" which I took to be
>>> welder-speak for "I don't want to do it".
>>
>>you need a certain degree of nouse. upside down means spray transfer
>>otherwise all you get is blobs running down your sleeves.
>>Of course welding upside down CAN be done, otherwise how would all those
>>pipelines, ships, and submarines happen?
>
> Where's Bonwick when you need him?

ginge...

On 9 Sep 2021 07:30:11 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>Salad Dodger wrote:
>
>> I was told "you can't weld upside down" which I took to be
>> welder-speak for "I don't want to do it".
>
>How did all the MOT plates get welded to the underside of the POS cars
>I've had over the years...

Exactly. I didn't want to press the issue, in case I needed to go
back.
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On 8 Sep 2021 15:55:20 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>Salad Dodger wrote:
>
>> so I enquired at a local "motorcycle engineering shop",
>> and they'd be delighted to weld it back together: if I present them
>> with a bare frame.
>
>Find another welder. Try one of the "under the arches" type car places
>or a light engineering, manufacturing workshop.
>
>Years ago I had some centre stand welding on the Guzzi - the chap just
>lay underneath it and fizzed away.

I know a couple of lads in Morocco who will sort it for you :)
--
Mark Roberts