Any of you come across a smartphone without a camera?

I want phone/text/email/app store but I have 2 excellent cameras and don't
want another. I expect it's a bit like laptops where I'd like one with no
touch pad but seems I am the only person in the world who wants that!

Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or more
only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual memory?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they
will stop making it

>
> Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or
> more only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual memory?

Or filled up by Android ?

Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Any of you come across a smartphone without a camera?
>
> I want phone/text/email/app store but I have 2 excellent cameras and don't
> want another. I expect it's a bit like laptops where I'd like one with no
> touch pad but seems I am the only person in the world who wants that!
>
> Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or more
> only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual memory?
>

A modern smart phone would be expected to have a camera. I haven't
personally seen any without.

Honestly the android/iphone treadmill is something you would be better
to get off, if you can. I still use an old nokia s60 (e72), with real
buttons, and I plan to use it until either it or I expire.

With the imminent decomissioning of 3g everywhere, it's likely the phone
functionality will expire before my own. In which case, when GSM also
goes the same way, I will buy the cheapest 4G nokia feature phone I can
find.

I do have an android motorola g5 with 16gb memory, last one you could
remove the back and change the battery. I have practically no extra apps
installed (line, eurosport and strava), yet for almost a year it
frequently tells me that it is running out of storage. I don't use it as
a phone ...

You are not alone regarding touch pads, I hate them. You want a nice
quality retro thinkpad with trackpoint, I love my x61.

The problem I'm afraid is that we are getting old and technology is
becoming ever more user hostile. We are nolonger the owners of our
hardware, we pay for it but these devices are largely for the benefit of
their corporate masters and outside of our control.

Designed for the dustbin at ever increasing speed so we can purchase
another one ...

Have a nice day an good luck on your perilous purchasing journey! :D

--

IanJ

gopher://gopher.icu

>
> You are not alone regarding touch pads, I hate them. You want a nice
> quality retro thinkpad with trackpoint, I love my x61.

I hate those touchpad things as well, but the only thing I have
personally experienced which I found even worse ....

was a wobbly red button thing in the middle of the keyboard on an IBM
Thinkpad which an employer "blessed" me with some 25 years ago. After a
while I got a REALLY sore finger, and I believe that at the time there
may have been no USM mouse option :-\
>

On 17/11/2023 20:57, Abandoned Trolley wrote:
>>
>> You are not alone regarding touch pads, I hate them. You want a nice
>> quality retro thinkpad with trackpoint, I love my x61.
>
> I hate those touchpad things as well, but the only thing I have
> personally experienced which I found even worse ....
>
> was a wobbly red button thing in the middle of the keyboard on an IBM
> Thinkpad which an employer "blessed" me with some 25 years ago. After a
> while I got a REALLY sore finger, and I believe that at the time there
> may have been no USM mouse option :-\
>>

I remember that red button in the middle of the KB... i could not get on
with this or with touchpads either.

Only solution I found was to carry a spare USB mouse with me to use with
any laptop.

I also use an Apple Mac and I can't get on with their touchpad either so
its back to a pukka optical mouse with the Apple Mac.

Abandoned Trolley <fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
>>
> I hate those touchpad things as well, but the only thing I have
> personally experienced which I found even worse ....
>
> was a wobbly red button thing in the middle of the keyboard on an IBM
> Thinkpad which an employer "blessed" me with some 25 years ago. After a
> while I got a REALLY sore finger, and I believe that at the time there
> may have been no USM mouse option :-\
>>

I think they must have given you a broken one. I've never had a wobbly
trackpoint, even the ones I've used for years with worn down caps have
never wobbled and I've owned a few:

760ED
560
R31
x61
and two USB trackpoint keybords that I've used on desktops (including
the one I'm now typing this on!).

Though of course, YMMV. :)

Best wishes,

Ian

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 13:47:25 +0000, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> Any of you come across a smartphone without a camera?
>
> I want phone/text/email/app store but I have 2 excellent cameras and
> don't want another. I expect it's a bit like laptops where I'd like one
> with no touch pad but seems I am the only person in the world who wants
> that!
>
> Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or
> more only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual memory?

I think this is a bit like saying "I never listen to the radio. Why can't
I buy a new car without one?".

So much is integrated these days that it is probably most cost efficient
in manufacturing to just put everything on the phone.

You aren't obliged to use the camera, and I doubt it would save you money
if you managed to buy one without a camera.

Cheers

Dave R

P.S. I almost always use a USB mouse with laptops.

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

David wrote:

> I think this is a bit like saying "I never listen to the radio. Why
> can't I buy a new car without one?". So much is integrated these days
> that it is probably most cost efficient in manufacturing to just put
> everything on the [...]

But if it's a BMW you'll probably have to pay a monthly fee to use the
radio ...

On 17/11/2023 13:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> Any of you come across a smartphone without a camera?

A quick web search suggests that there are one or two phones from brands
I've never heard of that don't have cameras. I don't know anything about
them.

> I want phone/text/email/app store but I have 2 excellent cameras and don't want another.

I resisted camera phones for many years ... but nowadays the phone can
use the camera for so much more than taking pictures that it doesn't
really make sense to leave it out. You can carry a decent camera for
photography as well, of course.

I was amazed at the utility of being able to point my phone's camera at
some text in Korean and have a translation app replace it with English
text that seemed to be a half-decent translation. I wouldn't have known
where to start looking the Korean up in a dictionary.

> I expect it's a bit like laptops where I'd like one with no touch pad
> but seems I am the only person in the world who wants that!

Laptop scratch-n-sniff panels have been getting better, There was a time
when I couldn't make them work at all, but the one in my Thinkpad works
almost as well as the trackpoint ... and better for scrolling. It's nice
that one can disable the pad when typing so that resting the side of a
thumb on it doesn't teleport the pointer to another part of the
galaxy^Wscreen mid-sentence, though.

> Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or
> more only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual
> memory?
No ... what models do that? Do tell!

--
Cheers,
Daniel.

On 19/11/2023 15:00, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> David wrote:
>
>> I think this is a bit like saying "I never listen to the radio. Why
>> can't I buy a new car without one?". So much is integrated these days
>> that it is probably most cost efficient in manufacturing to just put
>> everything on the [...]
>
> But if it's a BMW you'll probably have to pay a monthly fee to use the
> radio ...
>

LOL.... So True!

(remembers the press reporting arounf a heated steering wheel only being
enabled and available once you pay a month subscription!)

On 19/11/2023 in message <ujdob7$3u94v$1@dont-email.me> Daniel James wrote:

>>Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or
>>more only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual
>>memory?

>No ... what models do that? Do tell!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/OUKITEL-C33-Expandable-Smartphone-Fingerprint-grey/dp/B0CF9P73VN/ref=sr_1_21?crid=2EEEC6OLIOPCO&keywords=smartphone&qid=1700233575&sprefix=smartphone%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-21&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.23648568-4ba5-49f2-9aa6-31ae75f1e9cd&th=1

and

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blackview-Tab60-Tablet-Bluetooth-Headphone/dp/B0CHML4ZDJ/?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=dlx_deals_sc_dcl_img_dt_dealz_ic&pd_rd_w=l8G17&content-id=amzn1.sym.a2d9d1cf-9afa-45a5-89d6-0379ea7f5e04&pf_rd_p=a2d9d1cf-9afa-45a5-89d6-0379ea7f5e04&pf_rd_r=F7HNA65141KFHY7PCYXV&pd_rd_wg=G3eo9&pd_rd_r=fa69dd73-fcce-424e-a133-a551d07b1b81&th=1

I've just bought the latter and been setting it up, it's very good so far
and a tenth the price of an iPhone!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
George Washington was a British subject until well after his 40th birthday.
(Margaret Thatcher, speech at the White House 17 December 1979)

On 19/11/2023 20:21, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or
>>> more only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual
>>> memory?
>
>> No ... what models do that? Do tell!

[snip two Amazon links]

I don't know why those product descriptions lead you to understand that
those two phones use virtual memory?

Android can support in-memory compression, effectively giving extra RAM
capacity at the cost of a computation overhead compressing and
uncompressing memory contents (which is likely to be more noticeable in
increased power drain than any slowness) ... and a comment on at least
the second of those phones does seem to suggest that that is going on here.

Using virtual memory to increase effective RAM would mean that program
data was being copied out of RAM to 'disk' (flash memory, in a phone) so
that the RAM could be used for something else. Android uses the Linux
kernel, and Linux certainly can support swapping ... but I doubt it's
enabled on phones as flash memory supports a limited number of write
cycles (i.e. it will 'wear out' and become useless after a large number
of writes). (Android does use virtual memory management techniques, but
that doesn't imply that it uses swapping.)

I don't really see the point ... even 6GB is a huge amount for a phone.

--
Cheers,
Daniel.

Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 19/11/2023 in message <ujdob7$3u94v$1@dont-email.me> Daniel James wrote:
>
>>> Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or
>>> more only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual
>>> memory?
>
>> No ... what models do that? Do tell!
>
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/OUKITEL-C33-Expandable-Smartphone-Fingerprint-grey/dp/B0CF9P73VN/ref=sr_1_21?crid=2EEEC6OLIOPCO&keywords=smartphone&qid=1700233575&sprefix=smartphone%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-21&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.23648568-4ba5-49f2-9aa6-31ae75f1e9cd&th=1
>
> and
>
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blackview-Tab60-Tablet-Bluetooth-Headphone/dp/B0CHML4ZDJ/?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=dlx_deals_sc_dcl_img_dt_dealz_ic&pd_rd_w=l8G17&content-id=amzn1.sym.a2d9d1cf-9afa-45a5-89d6-0379ea7f5e04&pf_rd_p=a2d9d1cf-9afa-45a5-89d6-0379ea7f5e04&pf_rd_r=F7HNA65141KFHY7PCYXV&pd_rd_wg=G3eo9&pd_rd_r=fa69dd73-fcce-424e-a133-a551d07b1b81&th=1
>
> I've just bought the latter and been setting it up, it's very good so far
> and a tenth the price of an iPhone!

No idea why you're comparing a tablet to an iphone? It's certainly cheaper
than a base ipad and I'd expect so given the specs are so bad. Particularly
the screen.

SH <i.love@spam.com> wrote:
> On 19/11/2023 15:00, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>> David wrote:
>>
>>> I think this is a bit like saying "I never listen to the radio. Why
>>> can't I buy a new car without one?". So much is integrated these days
>>> that it is probably most cost efficient in manufacturing to just put
>>> everything on the [...]
>>
>> But if it's a BMW you'll probably have to pay a monthly fee to use the
>> radio ...
>>
>
> LOL.... So True!
>
> (remembers the press reporting arounf a heated steering wheel only being
> enabled and available once you pay a month subscription!)

More like a Tesla where any upgrades paid for by an owner are removed when
sold second hand only for the next owner to pay full whack for them again.

Daniel James wrote:

> Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>> Have you noticed how many smartphones now advertise with 12 GB RAM or
>> more only to discover in the small print half of it is virtual
>> memory?
>
> No ... what models do that? Do tell!
>
> [snip two Amazon links]
>
> I don't know why those product descriptions lead you to understand that
> those two phones use virtual memory?

The first one says ...

"15GB RAM (8GB RAM + 7GB Extra Virtual Memory)"

The second one says

"New memory expansion technology can expand the 6GB memory to 12GB RAM"

Chris wrote:

> SH wrote:
>
>> (remembers the press reporting arounf a heated steering wheel only being
>> enabled and available once you pay a month subscription!)
>
> More like a Tesla where any upgrades paid for by an owner are removed when
> sold second hand only for the next owner to pay full whack for them again.

Ouch, hadn't heard about that practice.

On 20/11/2023 in message <ujf5k0$8av6$1@dont-email.me> Chris wrote:

>>I've just bought the latter and been setting it up, it's very good so far
>>and a tenth the price of an iPhone!
>
>No idea why you're comparing a tablet to an iphone? It's certainly cheaper
>than a base ipad and I'd expect so given the specs are so bad. Particularly
>the screen.

It's a "phablet", i.e. a mobile 'phone with an 8" screen.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Indecision is the key to flexibility

On 20/11/2023 08:35, Andy Burns wrote:
> Daniel James wrote:
[snip]
>> I don't know why those product descriptions lead you to understand
>> that those two phones use virtual memory?
>
> The first one says ...
>
> "15GB RAM (8GB RAM + 7GB Extra Virtual Memory)"

Oops! I missed that.

> The second one says
>
> "New memory expansion technology can expand the 6GB memory to 12GB RAM"

Yes, I saw that ... but it looks to me more like in-memory compression
than virtual memory (in the usual sense of a swapfile).

My current phone (as of about five years ago) has 4GB. It it certainly
more capable than my previous phone that had only 1GB ... I'm not sure
that 6GB or 8GB would offer any improvement, and I don't see any
advantage in doubling it. Android tells me that on average I use only
61% of the available RAM.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

--
Cheers,
Daniel.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
>> SH wrote:
>>
>>> (remembers the press reporting arounf a heated steering wheel only being
>>> enabled and available once you pay a month subscription!)
>>
>> More like a Tesla where any upgrades paid for by an owner are removed when
>> sold second hand only for the next owner to pay full whack for them again.
>
> Ouch, hadn't heard about that practice.

That's the "advantage" of having everything controlled by software, it can
be controlled remotely. All Teslas have the same hardware.

Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 20/11/2023 in message <ujf5k0$8av6$1@dont-email.me> Chris wrote:
>
>>> I've just bought the latter and been setting it up, it's very good so far
>>> and a tenth the price of an iPhone!
>>
>> No idea why you're comparing a tablet to an iphone? It's certainly cheaper
>> than a base ipad and I'd expect so given the specs are so bad. Particularly
>> the screen.
>
> It's a "phablet", i.e. a mobile 'phone with an 8" screen.

Are you sure it can make actual phone calls? Most tablets with SIM cards
can only make internet calls via a separate service e.g. WhatsApp. So you
can't use it to ring the GP, for example.

On 21/11/2023 in message <ujhp0e$oj1i$1@dont-email.me> Chris wrote:

>Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>On 20/11/2023 in message <ujf5k0$8av6$1@dont-email.me> Chris wrote:
>>
>>>>I've just bought the latter and been setting it up, it's very good so
>>>>far
>>>>and a tenth the price of an iPhone!
>>>
>>>No idea why you're comparing a tablet to an iphone? It's certainly
>>>cheaper
>>>than a base ipad and I'd expect so given the specs are so bad.
>>>Particularly
>>>the screen.
>>
>>It's a "phablet", i.e. a mobile 'phone with an 8" screen.
>
>Are you sure it can make actual phone calls? Most tablets with SIM cards
>can only make internet calls via a separate service e.g. WhatsApp. So you
>can't use it to ring the GP, for example.

Yes I am!

I always buy these cheap Chinese 'phones, they are very popular in Asia
but eventually make their way here. Low quality cameras so lower cost (not
a problem for me as I said up thread) but a good sized screen so I can
read texts/emails etc. I don't live on my 'phone, I use my laptop for most
things, with Pushbullet I can even use it for texts and copying and
pasting 2FA codes into a browser.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Every day is a good day for chicken, unless you're a chicken.

Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 21/11/2023 in message <ujhp0e$oj1i$1@dont-email.me> Chris wrote:
>
>> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> On 20/11/2023 in message <ujf5k0$8av6$1@dont-email.me> Chris wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I've just bought the latter and been setting it up, it's very good so
>>>>> far
>>>>> and a tenth the price of an iPhone!
>>>>
>>>> No idea why you're comparing a tablet to an iphone? It's certainly
>>>> cheaper
>>>> than a base ipad and I'd expect so given the specs are so bad.
>>>> Particularly
>>>> the screen.
>>>
>>> It's a "phablet", i.e. a mobile 'phone with an 8" screen.
>>
>> Are you sure it can make actual phone calls? Most tablets with SIM cards
>> can only make internet calls via a separate service e.g. WhatsApp. So you
>> can't use it to ring the GP, for example.
>
> Yes I am!
>
> I always buy these cheap Chinese 'phones, they are very popular in Asia
> but eventually make their way here. Low quality cameras so lower cost (not
> a problem for me as I said up thread) but a good sized screen so I can
> read texts/emails etc. I don't live on my 'phone, I use my laptop for most
> things, with Pushbullet I can even use it for texts and copying and
> pasting 2FA codes into a browser.

OK, fair enough.

It's not at all what anyone would have thought to suggest given your
request in the OP, but glad you've found something suitable.

On 21/11/2023 in message <ujiitb$sn8q$1@dont-email.me> Chris wrote:

>>I always buy these cheap Chinese 'phones, they are very popular in Asia
>>but eventually make their way here. Low quality cameras so lower cost (not
>>a problem for me as I said up thread) but a good sized screen so I can
>>read texts/emails etc. I don't live on my 'phone, I use my laptop for most
>>things, with Pushbullet I can even use it for texts and copying and
>>pasting 2FA codes into a browser.
>
>OK, fair enough.
>
>It's not at all what anyone would have thought to suggest given your
>request in the OP, but glad you've found something suitable.

I'd be interested to know why you feel it doesn't meet my original spec?
It does have a camera but a cheap, low resolution one, otherwise it's what
I was looking for.

It's just taken me half an hour to transfer my banking app to it, as
usual I had the laptop on my lap setting out instructions and picking up
one code by email and the 'phone balanced on top with a code coming in by
text and switching back & forth between apps and machine. Needles to say
the instructions bore no relationship to what the screen actually looked
like.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his friends for his
life.
(Jeremy Thorpe, 1962)

Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 21/11/2023 in message <ujiitb$sn8q$1@dont-email.me> Chris wrote:
>
>>> I always buy these cheap Chinese 'phones, they are very popular in Asia
>>> but eventually make their way here. Low quality cameras so lower cost (not
>>> a problem for me as I said up thread) but a good sized screen so I can
>>> read texts/emails etc. I don't live on my 'phone, I use my laptop for most
>>> things, with Pushbullet I can even use it for texts and copying and
>>> pasting 2FA codes into a browser.
>>
>> OK, fair enough.
>>
>> It's not at all what anyone would have thought to suggest given your
>> request in the OP, but glad you've found something suitable.
>
> I'd be interested to know why you feel it doesn't meet my original spec?
> It does have a camera but a cheap, low resolution one, otherwise it's what
> I was looking for.

As you say it's a phablet. If someone is looking for a "mobile phone" a
phablet is not something that would come to my mind as a suggestion. The
same for many I suspect. Especially where you're not wanting a camera. Has
there ever been a tablet without a camera? Certainly the original ipad had
one.

On 21/11/2023 08:16, Chris wrote:
> Most tablets with SIM cards
> can only make internet calls via a separate service e.g. WhatsApp. So you
> can't use it to ring the GP, for example.

That's certainly true of all iPads, but most Android tablets I've come
across do support phone calls -- especially Samsungs. My (2012 model)
Galaxy Note did, and my newish Galaxy S8 does too.

A problem I originally (in 2013) had with Three was that phone SIMs
could detect that your tablet wasn't what Three considered to be a phone
and they wouldn't let you use the internet (except Three's own site),
and their data SIMs didn't allow calls. This kind of contractual
jiggery-pokery may lead some people to think that their tablet doesn't
'do' voice telephony, when it could with a different SIM.

I didn't find the same problem with other providers but back then the
Three 1-2-3 SIMs were a good deal for occasional use -- not any more,
sadly. Some time later the rules changed and I could use a 1-2-3 SIM in
the Galaxy Note, but then (before I got the S8) the pricing structure
became unreasonable for occasional use.

.... and, of course, the 1-2-3 SIM I had didn't get even occasional use
during the Covid lockdowns, and expired.

--
Cheers,
Daniel.