https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60890199

<quote>

US President Joe Biden's comment that his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin "cannot remain in power" has prompted strong criticism from veteran US diplomat Richard Haass.

The comments "made a difficult situation more difficult and a dangerous situation more dangerous", tweeted Mr Haass, who is president of the US Council on Foreign Relations.

"That is obvious," he added. "Less obvious is how to undo the damage, but I suggest his chief aides reach their counterparts & make clear the US is prepared to deal with this Russian government."

"Putin will see it as confirmation of what he’s believed all along. Bad lapse in discipline that runs risk of extending the scope and duration of the war."

</quotes>

Putin already knew and understood what it was all about, what the plan was. Or he wouldn't have felt he had no option but to push into Ukraine to secure the security of Russia which NATO were threatening.

They still are and I doubt Biden spelling it out will help.

On 27/03/2022 10:24, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60890199
>
> <quote>
>
> US President Joe Biden's comment that his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin "cannot remain in power" has prompted strong criticism from veteran US diplomat Richard Haass.
>
> The comments "made a difficult situation more difficult and a dangerous situation more dangerous", tweeted Mr Haass, who is president of the US Council on Foreign Relations.
>
> "That is obvious," he added. "Less obvious is how to undo the damage, but I suggest his chief aides reach their counterparts & make clear the US is prepared to deal with this Russian government."
>
> "Putin will see it as confirmation of what he’s believed all along. Bad lapse in discipline that runs risk of extending the scope and duration of the war."
>
> </quotes>
>
> Putin already knew and understood what it was all about, what the plan was. Or he wouldn't have felt he had no option but to push into Ukraine to secure the security of Russia which NATO were threatening.
>
> They still are and I doubt Biden spelling it out will help.
>

Biden's comments were no more stupid that Putin's actions.

How exactly was invading Ukraine supposed to protect Russia from NATO?
It it was really NATO fighting this war and not civilians with anti-tank
rockets Putin would be looking on eBay for some new tanks.

Now all the NATO countries will be arming themselves for bear and we're
even closer to an accident that wipes us all out.

Russia would have been 100x better off with a leader that doesn't fear
the West - and what you're describing sounds like fear to me. Russia
could have fought back the crazy years and worked with us - we wanted
to. Pre WTC attacks everyone was adding up in their heads the 'peace
dividend' from not having to prepare for war with Russia constantly. I
was never really convinced but I didn't object to hoping. I would have
felt better if they'd painted out the red stars on their aircraft!

China has done very well playing us at a new game. Russia just wanted
to crawl back into the dark smelly cave of its Soviet 'glory days'. And
we're back there too aren't we? Decades of hope and slow progress gone
because Putin thought we'd understand tanks better than talk. He didn't
have to do any of this. If we'd been brighter Ukraine would be in NATO
now and I dare say the sun would still have risen over Moscow ever day.

TWP wrote:
> On 27/03/2022 10:24, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60890199
>>
>> <quote>
>>
>> US President Joe Biden's comment that his Russian counterpart Vladimir
>> Putin "cannot remain in power" has prompted strong criticism from
>> veteran US diplomat Richard Haass.
>>
>> The comments "made a difficult situation more difficult and a
>> dangerous situation more dangerous", tweeted Mr Haass, who is
>> president of the US Council on Foreign Relations.
>>
>> "That is obvious," he added. "Less obvious is how to undo the damage,
>> but I suggest his chief aides reach their counterparts & make clear
>> the US is prepared to deal with this Russian government."
>>
>> "Putin will see it as confirmation of what he’s believed all along.
>> Bad lapse in discipline that runs risk of extending the scope and
>> duration of the war."
>>
>> </quotes>
>>
>> Putin already knew and understood what it was all about, what the plan
>> was. Or he wouldn't have felt he had no option but to push into
>> Ukraine to secure the security of Russia which NATO were threatening.
>>
>> They still are and I doubt Biden spelling it out will help.
>>
>
> Biden's comments were no more stupid that Putin's actions.
>
> How exactly was invading Ukraine supposed to protect Russia from NATO?
> It it was really NATO fighting this war and not civilians with anti-tank
> rockets Putin would be looking on eBay for some new tanks.

Yes, it is clear now that Russian conventional forces would be near
completely obliterated by the far stronger NATO forces.

To me, its clear why a Stalin fanboy like Putin would want Ukraine by
just looking at a map. It would present a menacing bulwark to Poland and
southern Europe, together with Belarus would menace the northern flank,
and put many more miles between NATO and Moscow.
You may think miles don't matter in the age of atomic missiles, but for
any strategist pouring over maps, they certainly do matter, and they
have to think about conventional wars as well.
>
> Now all the NATO countries will be arming themselves for bear and we're
> even closer to an accident that wipes us all out.
>
> Russia would have been 100x better off with a leader that doesn't fear
> the West - and what you're describing sounds like fear to me.  Russia
> could have fought back the crazy years and worked with us - we wanted
> to.  Pre WTC attacks everyone was adding up in their heads the 'peace
> dividend' from not having to prepare for war with Russia constantly.  I
> was never really convinced but I didn't object to hoping.  I would have
> felt better if they'd painted out the red stars on their aircraft!

They had McDonalds along with a whole slew of western companies.
They benefited greatly from our technology, they had Europe eating out
of their hands for fuel ,,, And all we got in return was the Russian
Mafia and luxury yacht sales.
So yes it is clear to see, Russians would be much better off if Vlad had
not invaded.

>
> China has done very well playing us at a new game.  Russia just wanted
> to crawl back into the dark smelly cave of its Soviet 'glory days'.  And
> we're back there too aren't we?  Decades of hope and slow progress gone
> because Putin thought we'd understand tanks better than talk.  He didn't
> have to do any of this.  If we'd been brighter Ukraine would be in NATO
> now and I dare say the sun would still have risen over Moscow ever day.

I think that a large part of the problem with Russia, and why they can
never truly join peaceful, productive nations or really be trusted no
matter who they call leader is that they still idolize their founding
tyrannical mass murdering founders.
Germans were quick to throw Hitlerism overboard, Japanese were quick to
forget about Tojo, and they have both prospered greatly every since.

Still would not consider it advisable to over reach and put the decision
of WW3 or not with Ukraine. You seem to assume that Russia would be
forced to accept this and adapt to the new status quo, I see no cause
for such optimism.
Europe may have but the USA has no true national security interests in
that large patch of ground, never has and never will. But since we have
been bound up defending Europe for the last 70 years, I suppose we have
got ourselves into the position where we must take on anything that
Europe feels threatened by, even if it is no threat to us.

And what do we get out of all of this ? Still trying to figure that part
out.

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:34:14 +0100
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> How exactly was invading Ukraine supposed to protect Russia from
> NATO?

It was intended to creates the bargaining chip such that NATO would accept a DMZ between Russia and NATO in exchange for ending their occupation.

It is what you, Jesse, myself and others in the west, have been saying is the only solution, the only way to guarantee peace and security between Russia and the west. Unsurprisingly Putin sees it the same way.

That DMZ had been in place. The only reason Putin believed it was disappearing was because NATO said it would be. Our lies caused this war.

> If we'd been brighter
> Ukraine would be in NATO now and I dare say the sun would still have
> risen over Moscow ever day.

If NATO had allowed Ukraine to join the only bright things in the sky would have been nuclear detonations.

It's why NATO doesn't want Ukraine as a member. They need that DMZ as much as Russia does.

This is why it was so utterly stupid, reckless and dangerous to lie about that, convincing Putin he was losing that DMZ, that NATO were going to take it away.

If NATO had not lied about letting Ukraine join, lied about taking away the DMZ, this invasion and war would never have happened. It was provoked by our lying.

If NATO hadn't lied about not expanding to the east, lied about not pushing up against Russia's borders, Putin might have less reason to be worried for his country's future. To tell him "we are coming for you" is pretty provocative; enough to kick-start a war. As it has.