I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.

Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>

Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
pointing upwards?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 16/07/2021 19:55, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>
>
> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
> pointing upwards?
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

The signal is about 200 yds away from Bilbrook Station. I'll have a look
next Friday, when I'm coming back from my aunt's.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 18:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>pointing upwards?

There are definitely three aspect distant signals on the Wolves to
Shrewsbury line. One example on the signaling diagram I have is MJ359R
(between Oakengates and Wellington).
Would the MJ signals have been renumbered when control of the line
moved to Saltley?

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>
>
> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
> pointing upwards?

Wouldn’t a signal show its most restrictive aspect when a train passed it?
Going to double yellow from green suggests that it can only show those two
aspects. Is that possible?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>> pointing upwards?
>
> Wouldn’t a signal show its most restrictive aspect when a train passed it?
> Going to double yellow from green suggests that it can only show those two
> aspects. Is that possible?
>

Yes, depending on the local quirks of the signalling system that's entirely
possible. Thinking about it more, that means the signal plate should have
RR after the number, not just R.

Incidentally I was reading recently about a signal somewhere which had
first-wheel replacement from green to yellow and last-wheel replacement
from yellow to red!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>>> pointing upwards?
>>
>> Wouldn’t a signal show its most restrictive aspect when a train passed it?
>> Going to double yellow from green suggests that it can only show those two
>> aspects. Is that possible?
>>
>
> Yes, depending on the local quirks of the signalling system that's entirely
> possible. Thinking about it more, that means the signal plate should have
> RR after the number, not just R.
>
> Incidentally I was reading recently about a signal somewhere which had
> first-wheel replacement from green to yellow and last-wheel replacement
> from yellow to red!

So, apart from the philosophical and computational issues about detecting
the last wheel, it’s (remotely) possible that if the OP hadn’t been
watching closely the signal may have reverted to a more restrictive aspect
after the train had passed. Fascinating. Signalling is a remarkably
complicated discipline.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>>>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>>>> pointing upwards?
>>>
>>> Wouldn’t a signal show its most restrictive aspect when a train passed it?
>>> Going to double yellow from green suggests that it can only show those two
>>> aspects. Is that possible?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, depending on the local quirks of the signalling system that's entirely
>> possible. Thinking about it more, that means the signal plate should have
>> RR after the number, not just R.
>>
>> Incidentally I was reading recently about a signal somewhere which had
>> first-wheel replacement from green to yellow and last-wheel replacement
>> from yellow to red!
>
> So, apart from the philosophical and computational issues about detecting
> the last wheel,

Clearance of the track circuit behind the train.

> it’s (remotely) possible that if the OP hadn’t been
> watching closely the signal may have reverted to a more restrictive aspect
> after the train had passed. Fascinating. Signalling is a remarkably
> complicated discipline.
>

Unlikely in a modern resignalling, though; in the discussion it was cited
as very much one of life's anomalies! (Signalling would be no fun without
anomalies ;) )

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>>>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>>>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>>>>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>>>>> pointing upwards?
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn’t a signal show its most restrictive aspect when a train passed it?
>>>> Going to double yellow from green suggests that it can only show those two
>>>> aspects. Is that possible?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, depending on the local quirks of the signalling system that's entirely
>>> possible. Thinking about it more, that means the signal plate should have
>>> RR after the number, not just R.
>>>
>>> Incidentally I was reading recently about a signal somewhere which had
>>> first-wheel replacement from green to yellow and last-wheel replacement
>>> from yellow to red!
>>
>> So, apart from the philosophical and computational issues about detecting
>> the last wheel,
>
> Clearance of the track circuit behind the train.

Pragmatist!

>> it’s (remotely) possible that if the OP hadn’t been
>> watching closely the signal may have reverted to a more restrictive aspect
>> after the train had passed. Fascinating. Signalling is a remarkably
>> complicated discipline.
>>
>
> Unlikely in a modern resignalling, though; in the discussion it was cited
> as very much one of life's anomalies! (Signalling would be no fun without
> anomalies ;) )

:-) and thanks for the insight.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 18/07/2021 09:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>>> pointing upwards?
>>
>> Wouldn’t a signal show its most restrictive aspect when a train passed it?
>> Going to double yellow from green suggests that it can only show those two
>> aspects. Is that possible?
>>
>
> Yes, depending on the local quirks of the signalling system that's entirely
> possible. Thinking about it more, that means the signal plate should have
> RR after the number, not just R.
>
> Incidentally I was reading recently about a signal somewhere which had
> first-wheel replacement from green to yellow and last-wheel replacement
> from yellow to red!
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

I've also noticed on the NLL that signals in the opposite direction on a
track show advanced caution, instead of danger, and only drop to the
latter as a train approaches.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/07/2021 09:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>>>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>>>> pointing upwards?
>>>
>>> Wouldn’t a signal show its most restrictive aspect when a train passed it?
>>> Going to double yellow from green suggests that it can only show those two
>>> aspects. Is that possible?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, depending on the local quirks of the signalling system that's entirely
>> possible. Thinking about it more, that means the signal plate should have
>> RR after the number, not just R.
>>
>> Incidentally I was reading recently about a signal somewhere which had
>> first-wheel replacement from green to yellow and last-wheel replacement
>> from yellow to red!
>>
>
> I've also noticed on the NLL that signals in the opposite direction on a
> track show advanced caution, instead of danger, and only drop to the
> latter as a train approaches.
>

The signals for bidirectional running, you mean?

That was a common set-up in BR cost-cutting installations; the signals
within such a section may act as automatic signals and literally just
reflect the situation of the track circuits ahead of them.

On the GWML this used to be able to be observed on the SIMBIDS (SIMplified
BIDirectionals Signalling) sections between Thingley Jn and Bristol; when
running on the wrong line at night, if the right-direction signal aspects
were visible shining onto trees or structures, an observant driver of a
wrong-direction train could observe the signal step from yellow to red as
their train reached the end of the overlap track circuit (around 200yds
beyond the signal in the right direction). Presumably the signal would then
change to green after the wrong-line train passed the signal! SIMBIDS in
this area has now been replaced with proper bidirectional signalling;
presumably all right-direction signals show their most restrictive aspect
when a wrong-direction route is set.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 16/07/2021 19:55, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>
>
> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
> pointing upwards?
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

A bit of luck I've found a route training guide for the WVH to SHR line
at https://www.trackaccessproductions.com/route-learning/ The signal I
could see only show double amber and green, its signal plate number is
OS3724, the OS is code for Oxley which the West Midlands signalling
centre uses.

Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16/07/2021 19:55, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>> pointing upwards?
>>
>
> A bit of luck I've found a route training guide for the WVH to SHR line
> at https://www.trackaccessproductions.com/route-learning/ The signal I
> could see only show double amber and green, its signal plate number is
> OS3724, the OS is code for Oxley which the West Midlands signalling
> centre uses.
>

Some interesting links there, thanks! Incidentally these are great examples
of the route briefing materials recently discussed in another thread :)

I'm confused why MJ322R and MJ327R are shown as being able to show double
yellow, when they are 'distants' for signals which only show red/green. I
presume it's a mistake on the map.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 18/07/2021 21:25, Weather or Not wrote:
> On 16/07/2021 19:55, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white
>> triangle
>> pointing upwards?
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> A bit of luck I've found a route training guide for the WVH to SHR line
> at https://www.trackaccessproductions.com/route-learning/  The signal I
> could see only show double amber and green, its signal plate number is
> OS3724, the OS is code for Oxley which the West Midlands signalling
> centre uses.

Interesting. Think for the link. I'm surprised that Golborne Junction
with that single lead junction has the capacity for the four lines beyond.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 18/07/2021 21:25, Weather or Not wrote:
>> On 16/07/2021 19:55, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white
>>> triangle
>>> pointing upwards?
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>
>> A bit of luck I've found a route training guide for the WVH to SHR line
>> at https://www.trackaccessproductions.com/route-learning/  The signal I
>> could see only show double amber and green, its signal plate number is
>> OS3724, the OS is code for Oxley which the West Midlands signalling
>> centre uses.
>
> Interesting. Think for the link. I'm surprised that Golborne Junction
> with that single lead junction has the capacity for the four lines beyond.
>

BR's cost-cutting era ;)

There's fairly little traffic over the junction from the direction the
video comes from (though substantially more than there used to be!), 1tph
each way
<https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:LOWTONJ/2021-07-19/0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt>.

The single lead to the slow lines is rather more unusual, but I guess it's
sufficient for the traffic.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16/07/2021 19:55, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Weather or Not <weather@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I saw a train go through Bilbrook near Wolverhampton, when it went past
>>>> a signal, the signal turned to double amber, I always thought the signal
>>>> should turn to Red, to stop another train entering the same section.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's a signal which can't show red? Can you see the signal number
>>> plate? Does it have the letter R after the number, and/or a white triangle
>>> pointing upwards?
>>>
>>
>> A bit of luck I've found a route training guide for the WVH to SHR line
>> at https://www.trackaccessproductions.com/route-learning/ The signal I
>> could see only show double amber and green, its signal plate number is
>> OS3724, the OS is code for Oxley which the West Midlands signalling
>> centre uses.
>>
>
> Some interesting links there, thanks! Incidentally these are great examples
> of the route briefing materials recently discussed in another thread :)
>

…Particularly those on this page
<https://www.trackaccessproductions.com/driver-briefing/>

The first one is a great example, up to 2:00 it's cab video with the new
gantries photoshopped in and the old ones, blurred out, then a seamless
*rotfl* cut to CGI of the new routes.

Anna Noyd-Dryver