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aus+uk / uk.current-events.terrorism / Re: Another day, another threat from Russia

SubjectAuthor
* Another day, another threat from RussiaJesse
`* Re: Another day, another threat from RussiaTWP
 +* Re: Another day, another threat from RussiaThe Happy Hippy
 |`- Re: Another day, another threat from RussiaThe Happy Hippy
 `* Re: Another day, another threat from RussiaJeSSe
  +- Re: Another day, another threat from RussiaThe Happy Hippy
  `- Re: Another day, another threat from RussiaThe Happy Hippy

1
Another day, another threat from Russia

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From: zo...@so.org (Jesse)
Subject: Another day, another threat from Russia
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:32:50 -0400
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 by: Jesse - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:32 UTC

These 2 nations have 2 choices:

* Become the next victims of Soviet brute expansion without backup
or
* Make it highly unlikely they will become victims because they have backup

Putin has made the choice very clear - He broke a 70+ year peace in
Europe, and now for the consequences.

Since Russia is quite obviously a paper tiger conventionally, these new
threats can only be nuclear. Really doesn't matter at this point,
everyone knows the commies are full of malice and lies, and that any
"guarantee" to leave them alone if they don't join NATO are meaningless.

The only guarantee they want and need comes from joining a bloc
dedicated to containing these unruly beasts - Yes, invasions do have
consequences.

I suspect even Moldova will be wanting to join as it may be their only
guarantee of long term sovereignty - And if Belarus wasn't led by a
puppet dictator, they'd be breaking down the door to get into NATO.

Which leads one to wonder ,,,, Hmmm, why does everyone hate and fear
Russia ?

```````````````````````````

Russia issues new warning to Sweden and Finland over joining NATO as
poll shows 57 per cent of Swedes now want to sign up and Finland today
begins debating whether to join

57% of Sweden now favours joining NATO, up from slim majority of
51% in March
Finnish MPs have today begun debate on whether to apply to join the
alliance
Comes after leaders of both states said membership being seriously
considered
Pair forced to re-think security arrangements after Russia attacked
Ukraine

Russia has issued a fresh warning to Finland and Sweden over joining
NATO, as the two countries draw closer to becoming part of the military
alliance.

Maria Zakharova, spokesman for Russia's foreign ministry, said today
that both countries have been informed 'what it will lead to' if they
abandon decades-old neutrality agreements and become NATO members.

'We have issued all our warnings both publicly and through bilateral
channels,' she told the Rossiya 24 state media channel. 'They know about
it, they will have nothing to be surprised about, they were informed
about everything.'

She spoke after a new poll in Sweden showed support for joining the
alliance has risen to 57 per cent, up from 51 per cent in March, after
Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson said the time was right to debate the
merits of membership.

Meanwhile politicians in Finland have today begun debating their own
ties with NATO, after Prime Minister Sanna Marin said she expected a
decision on membership to be made 'within weeks'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10734429/Growing-majority-Swedes-joining-NATO-opinion-poll-shows.html
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may
deride it, but in the end - There it is !

Re: Another day, another threat from Russia

<xrv8K.2691537$u91.872480@fx02.ams4>

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 by: TWP - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 10:28 UTC

On 21/04/2022 20:32, Jesse wrote:
> These 2 nations have 2 choices:
>
> * Become the next victims of Soviet brute expansion without backup
> or
> * Make it highly unlikely they will become victims because they have backup
>
> Putin has made the choice very clear - He broke a 70+ year peace in
> Europe, and now for the consequences.
>
> Since Russia is quite obviously a paper tiger conventionally, these new
> threats can only be nuclear. Really doesn't matter at this point,
> everyone knows the commies are full of malice and lies, and that any
> "guarantee" to leave them alone if they don't join NATO are meaningless.
>
> The only guarantee they want and need comes from joining a bloc
> dedicated to containing these unruly beasts - Yes, invasions do have
> consequences.
>
> I suspect even Moldova will be wanting to join as it may be their only
> guarantee of long term sovereignty - And if Belarus wasn't led by a
> puppet dictator, they'd be breaking down the door to get into NATO.
>
> Which leads one to wonder ,,,, Hmmm, why does everyone hate and fear
> Russia ?
>
> ```````````````````````````
>

Making a deal with Putin is like making a deal with Hitler. It is like
we're back in the old Soviet days - the same paranoia, the same threats
to end the human species if Russia is thwarted militarily or
politically... for what? For Ukraine? To halt "NATO expansion" when a
peaceful Russia would have been the best weapon for that. People were
starting to get the idea that we had that but I never did. Maybe if
they'd painted out the red stars on their aircraft I might have been
more encouraged!

>
> Russia issues new warning to Sweden and Finland over joining NATO as
> poll shows 57 per cent of Swedes now want to sign up and Finland today
> begins debating whether to join
>
>     57% of Sweden now favours joining NATO, up from slim majority of
> 51% in March
>     Finnish MPs have today begun debate on whether to apply to join the
> alliance
>     Comes after leaders of both states said membership being seriously
> considered
>     Pair forced to re-think security arrangements after Russia attacked
> Ukraine
>
>
> Russia has issued a fresh warning to Finland and Sweden over joining
> NATO, as the two countries draw closer to becoming part of the military
> alliance.
>
> Maria Zakharova, spokesman for Russia's foreign ministry, said today
> that both countries have been informed 'what it will lead to' if they
> abandon decades-old neutrality agreements and become NATO members.
>
> 'We have issued all our warnings both publicly and through bilateral
> channels,' she told the Rossiya 24 state media channel. 'They know about
> it, they will have nothing to be surprised about, they were informed
> about everything.'
>
> She spoke after a new poll in Sweden showed support for joining the
> alliance has risen to 57 per cent, up from 51 per cent in March, after
> Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson said the time was right to debate the
> merits of membership.
>
> Meanwhile politicians in Finland have today begun debating their own
> ties with NATO, after Prime Minister Sanna Marin said she expected a
> decision on membership to be made 'within weeks'.
>
>
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10734429/Growing-majority-Swedes-joining-NATO-opinion-poll-shows.html
>

Re: Another day, another threat from Russia

<20220422144844.0000675c@ntlworld.invalid>

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: Another day, another threat from Russia
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:48:44 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:48 UTC

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 11:28:43 +0100
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Making a deal with Putin is like making a deal with Hitler.

It seems to me that making a deal with NATO is more like making a deal with Hitler.

NATO promised Russia they would not expand, would not push towards the East, put themselves on Russia's borders, and they broke all those promises.

It's breaking those promises, trying to destroy the Russian sphere of influence, promoting regime change in Russia, which has brought this all about.

Biden's been the only one pushing for regime change.

> It is
> like we're back in the old Soviet days - the same paranoia

Except that "paranoia" is entirely justified. Russia wanted security, NATO said okay, then broke all their promises on that.

> the same
> threats to end the human species if Russia is thwarted militarily or
> politically...

That's no difference to the "better dead than red" doctrine of the USA. Mutually Assured Destruction works both ways.

It usually remains unspoken. And would have remained that way if NATO weren't threatening the very existence of Russia.

> for what? For Ukraine? To halt "NATO expansion"

Indeed; to secure Russian security.

> when
> a peaceful Russia would have been the best weapon for that.

They tried that. America wouldn't tolerate it, rejected that. NATO driven by America simply pushed on with their plot to crush Russia.

> People
> were starting to get the idea that we had that but I never did

We got close. It seemed that way. But few realised America opposed that, would seek to turn that around.

..
> Maybe if they'd painted out the red stars on their aircraft I might
> have been more encouraged!

They might have if Russia had been allowed to join the EU, if they had been allowed to join NATO.

Dmitry Medvedev attempted to turn Russia around during his term. He wanted to bring Russia out of the cold, embraced reform, capitalism and western ways, and was warmly welcomed in America and Europe. It looked like change was on the horizon, that Russia would soon become an integral part of Europe.

But Russia joining the EU was considered an existential threat to the supremacy of America which led to Obama deciding to instigate an uprising within Ukraine, to send in Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland to turn the EU and Russia against each other. "Best money America ever spent" as Obama put it.

It was. The $5 billion Obama spent was chicken feed, a real bargain. In terms of ensuring there could be no peace in Europe. In terms of containing the supremacy of the EU. In terms of securing the supremacy of America.

There was that chance of peace. Obama was determined not to allow it, and there's no doubt Biden was also in on that.

Democrats were hoping to push on with their plan to destroy Russia with NATO and western help, but Trump getting elected put paid to that.

Biden getting elected put the plan back on track.

Re: Another day, another threat from Russia

<20220422161903.00005695@ntlworld.invalid>

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
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Subject: Re: Another day, another threat from Russia
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 16:19:03 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 15:19 UTC

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:48:44 +0100
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> But Russia joining the EU was considered an existential threat to the
> supremacy of America

One of America's credible fears was that Russia adopting the euro would boost its status on the global stage, would diminish the standing of the dollar, end petro-dollar supremacy.

Saddam's progress towards replacing the dollar with euros is said by some to have been what made a war on Iraq a necessity.

There was a double-whammy win in ending the increasingly cosy relationship between the EU and Russia - it stalled the rise of the euro, stopped the huge expansion of the EU there would have been.

America has always understood expansion of the EU and wider adoption of the euro was a threat to American supremacy. That's why they have been so ideologically opposed to the EU, have been so adamant the euro won't succeed, have been determined to have it fail.

The idea of the EU uniting with China and Russia, the prospect of the entire bloc adopting the euro, handing everyone else the option to move from the dollar, sent real shivers down American spines.

America has always been anti-Russia, anti-China; they need to ensure the EU is as well. It's one of the reasons they are stoking anti-China sentiment around the world.

Conspiracy theorists believe America instigated a pandemic in China simply to do that.

Re: Another day, another threat from Russia

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From: zo...@so.org (JeSSe)
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 by: JeSSe - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 18:31 UTC

TWP wrote:
> On 21/04/2022 20:32, Jesse wrote:
>> These 2 nations have 2 choices:
>>
>> * Become the next victims of Soviet brute expansion without backup
>> or
>> * Make it highly unlikely they will become victims because they have
>> backup
>>
>> Putin has made the choice very clear - He broke a 70+ year peace in
>> Europe, and now for the consequences.
>>
>> Since Russia is quite obviously a paper tiger conventionally, these
>> new threats can only be nuclear. Really doesn't matter at this point,
>> everyone knows the commies are full of malice and lies, and that any
>> "guarantee" to leave them alone if they don't join NATO are meaningless.
>>
>> The only guarantee they want and need comes from joining a bloc
>> dedicated to containing these unruly beasts - Yes, invasions do have
>> consequences.
>>
>> I suspect even Moldova will be wanting to join as it may be their only
>> guarantee of long term sovereignty - And if Belarus wasn't led by a
>> puppet dictator, they'd be breaking down the door to get into NATO.
>>
>> Which leads one to wonder ,,,, Hmmm, why does everyone hate and fear
>> Russia ?
>>
>> ```````````````````````````
>>
>
> Making a deal with Putin is like making a deal with Hitler.  It is like
> we're back in the old Soviet days - the same paranoia, the same threats
> to end the human species if Russia is thwarted militarily or
> politically... for what?  For Ukraine?  To halt "NATO expansion" when a
> peaceful Russia would have been the best weapon for that.  People were
> starting to get the idea that we had that but I never did.  Maybe if
> they'd painted out the red stars on their aircraft I might have been
> more encouraged!

Probably worse than Soviet days [though most of my recollections are 2nd
hand !]
Seems to me the original Soviets didn't use nuclear threats at the drop
of a hat, though it was always implied. I also think previous Soviet
dictators were a study in stability compared to unhinged putin.

The arguments that propagandists like hippy make that Russia was facing
a dire, existential threat from NATO is sheer straw man - Though I have
always thought and still think that overtures to Ukraine are not a good
idea, no one is threatening Russia. - And the only fears Russians have
are of loss of pride and influence.
Countries joined NATO specifically to avoid the scenario Ukraine is
going through right now. I can easily see why countries chose to do so,
I can also see how Russia sees this as a threat, if only to putins ego.

Look at Finn/Russian history, look at the Finn/Russian border, Finn
membership in NATO will be a heavy blow to Russian pride - And Russia
has amateur strategist putin to thank for that, and putin only.

But to brutally invade Ukraine like Hitler and with even less regard for
civilians than Hitler is obviously not the way to go about balancing the
situation.
Putin could have declared the Ukraine a Soviet red line, and that he
would attack if Ukraine made a move to join NATO, while deploying Soviet
forces on much needed training, such as he did. I think this would have
been effective on both Ukraine and NATO. After all, we shrunk form
giving Ukraine jets on the threat of nuclear war, we certainly would
have shrunk from pursuing NATO overtures.
He had the goose laying golden eggs, NORD2 was about to go online [with
puppet Xidens blessings, in contrast to Trump who opposed it] and would
have quickly made Europe near completely dependent on Russian fuel, even
more so than they in fact are now.
He could have maintained and even increased the civil war in Ukraine, it
was very apparent that no one was going to step in and do anything about
it, any more than Crimea.

But his vanity got the best of him and he figured his legacy has got to
be that of Vlad the Invader, the hero that forced Ukraine back into the
Soviet fold and expanded Russian borders right up to Poland and the
Baltics ,, And the price he is paying for that vain fallacy is incalculable.

Now he is reduced to doing what I predicted he would do weeks ago, try
to salvage some rump territory in the east and maintain an even larger
civil war, with a newly energized cold war with the west threatening to
go hot at any moment.

>>
>> Russia issues new warning to Sweden and Finland over joining NATO as
>> poll shows 57 per cent of Swedes now want to sign up and Finland today
>> begins debating whether to join
>>
>>      57% of Sweden now favours joining NATO, up from slim majority of
>> 51% in March
>>      Finnish MPs have today begun debate on whether to apply to join
>> the alliance
>>      Comes after leaders of both states said membership being
>> seriously considered
>>      Pair forced to re-think security arrangements after Russia
>> attacked Ukraine
>>
>>
>> Russia has issued a fresh warning to Finland and Sweden over joining
>> NATO, as the two countries draw closer to becoming part of the
>> military alliance.
>>
>> Maria Zakharova, spokesman for Russia's foreign ministry, said today
>> that both countries have been informed 'what it will lead to' if they
>> abandon decades-old neutrality agreements and become NATO members.
>>
>> 'We have issued all our warnings both publicly and through bilateral
>> channels,' she told the Rossiya 24 state media channel. 'They know
>> about it, they will have nothing to be surprised about, they were
>> informed about everything.'
>>
>> She spoke after a new poll in Sweden showed support for joining the
>> alliance has risen to 57 per cent, up from 51 per cent in March, after
>> Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson said the time was right to debate
>> the merits of membership.
>>
>> Meanwhile politicians in Finland have today begun debating their own
>> ties with NATO, after Prime Minister Sanna Marin said she expected a
>> decision on membership to be made 'within weeks'.
>>
>>
>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10734429/Growing-majority-Swedes-joining-NATO-opinion-poll-shows.html
>>
>

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Re: Another day, another threat from Russia

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: Another day, another threat from Russia
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:24:50 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:24 UTC

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:31:31 -0400
JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> The arguments that propagandists like hippy make that Russia was
> facing a dire, existential threat from NATO is sheer straw man

Sure. It's nothing like the Cuban Missile Crisis when your mortal enemy rocks-up on your border armed to the teeth, breaking promises never to do that.

Give us a break.

Re: Another day, another threat from Russia

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: Another day, another threat from Russia
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:50:43 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:50 UTC

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:31:31 -0400
JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> Putin could have declared the Ukraine a Soviet red line, and that he
> would attack if Ukraine made a move to join NATO, while deploying
> Soviet forces on much needed training, such as he did. I think this
> would have been effective on both Ukraine and NATO.

He did and it wasn't.

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