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aus+uk / uk.current-events.terrorism / Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms

SubjectAuthor
* Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
`* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy
 `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
  `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy
   `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
    `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy
     `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      +* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsLoose Cannon
      |+* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      ||+* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsLoose Cannon
      |||+* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      ||||`* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsLoose Cannon
      |||| `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      ||||  `- Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsLoose Cannon
      |||`* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      ||| `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsLoose Cannon
      |||  `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      |||   `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsLoose Cannon
      |||    `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      |||     `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsLoose Cannon
      |||      `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      |||       `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsLoose Cannon
      |||        `- Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy
      ||`- Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy
      |`* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy
      | `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      |  `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy
      |   `- Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
      `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy
       `* Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsJeSSe
        `- Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote loomsThe Happy Hippy

Pages:12
Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms

<t44cug$nm0$1@pcls7.std.com>

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 20:46:08 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 20:46 UTC

In article <chf9K.109436$Kdf.30791@fx96.iad>, JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

[JOO discussion deleted]

>> "If the war is lost, the nation will also perish. This fate
>> is inevitable. There is no necessity to take into consideration the
>> basis for which the people will need to continue a most primitive
>> existence. On the contrary, it will be better to destroy these things
>> ourselves because this nation will have proved to be the weaker one
>> and the future will belong solely to the stronger eastern nation
>> Besides, those who will remain after the battle are only the inferior
>> ones, for the good ones have been killed."
>>
>> "If the German people are no longer so strong and ready
>> for sacrifice that that they will stake their own blood on their
>> existence, they deserve to pass away and be annihilated by another,
>> stronger power".

> So you really thought Hitler should have said Ok, thats enough, I give
> up. Come in and occupy my country, destroy my party, hang me and all my
> associates, occupy my land for years maybe decades, and all that without
> a fight ! ??

Exactly. He knew that it was over. But again, that's not the major point;
see the quotes above (preceded by ">>"), and there are more in Fest's book.
Hitler WANTED the Germans to die, he WANTED Germany destroyed. He REALLY
believed that those who lose, who are weak, should be exterminated. And
to that one should add his personal feeling of betrayal by the German
people.

It's no coincidence that so many high-ranking German officers, smart
and brave people, tried to kill the crazy POS.

> Ok, UN is a long established operative power of sorts in these
> situations, so is there a different definition of genocide that you
> adhere to, or you just make up your own as you go ?
>
> I quoted it because it is widely accepted by most and it actually makes
> some sense. You don't have to slaughter a particular group down to the
> last man, woman and child to be guilty of genocide [though I suppose it
> more accurately could be called "attempted genocide"] - And thus hippys
> musing that "There are still many alive, Russians let them escape" is
> not any more valid than "lots of jews under German control survived the war"
> They are either both right or both wrong.

Well, again, it's a question of absolute numbers, percentages, and intent.

Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms

<Rxk9K.28548$JaS8.2891@fx47.iad>

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Subject: Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
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From: zo...@so.org (JeSSe)
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 by: JeSSe - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 22:53 UTC

Loose Cannon wrote:
> In article <chf9K.109436$Kdf.30791@fx96.iad>, JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:
>
> [JOO discussion deleted]
>
>>> "If the war is lost, the nation will also perish. This fate
>>> is inevitable. There is no necessity to take into consideration the
>>> basis for which the people will need to continue a most primitive
>>> existence. On the contrary, it will be better to destroy these things
>>> ourselves because this nation will have proved to be the weaker one
>>> and the future will belong solely to the stronger eastern nation
>>> Besides, those who will remain after the battle are only the inferior
>>> ones, for the good ones have been killed."
>>>
>>> "If the German people are no longer so strong and ready
>>> for sacrifice that that they will stake their own blood on their
>>> existence, they deserve to pass away and be annihilated by another,
>>> stronger power".
>
>> So you really thought Hitler should have said Ok, thats enough, I give
>> up. Come in and occupy my country, destroy my party, hang me and all my
>> associates, occupy my land for years maybe decades, and all that without
>> a fight ! ??
>
> Exactly. He knew that it was over. But again, that's not the major point;
> see the quotes above (preceded by ">>"), and there are more in Fest's book.
> Hitler WANTED the Germans to die, he WANTED Germany destroyed. He REALLY
> believed that those who lose, who are weak, should be exterminated. And
> to that one should add his personal feeling of betrayal by the German
> people.
>
> It's no coincidence that so many high-ranking German officers, smart
> and brave people, tried to kill the crazy POS.
>
>> Ok, UN is a long established operative power of sorts in these
>> situations, so is there a different definition of genocide that you
>> adhere to, or you just make up your own as you go ?
>>
>> I quoted it because it is widely accepted by most and it actually makes
>> some sense. You don't have to slaughter a particular group down to the
>> last man, woman and child to be guilty of genocide [though I suppose it
>> more accurately could be called "attempted genocide"] - And thus hippys
>> musing that "There are still many alive, Russians let them escape" is
>> not any more valid than "lots of jews under German control survived the war"
>> They are either both right or both wrong.
>
> Well, again, it's a question of absolute numbers, percentages, and intent.
>
oh ok, so you have a minimum body count to consider the G word Ok.
Intent well, I think he intended to invade, and I think he doesn't care
about the 10,000's of innocent deaths [so far] his adventure in Ukraine
has caused.

I see why both you guys are soft on putin.

As a holocaust promoter, you don't want to see anything even remotely
competing with that, and want to reserve the G word for the JOOS unless
maybe putin is verified to have slain 2.5 million Ukrainians or so.

For dippys part, he is so smitten with putin that he couldn't tolerate
him being slandered with the G word, and be put aside certain bad company.

But lets let it rest, the situation obviously is still evolving, putin
is already an international pariah and labels won't do a whole lot of
good either way.
He has denied Ukraine is even a legit country, he has labeled those who
oppose him as Nazis, it is clear that he had laid the ground for the
mass culling that contrived deominzations like this have historically
led to.

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms

<t44lnd$f54$1@pcls7.std.com>

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 23:15:57 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 23:15 UTC

In article <Rxk9K.28548$JaS8.2891@fx47.iad>, JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> Loose Cannon wrote:

[...]

>> Well, again, it's a question of absolute numbers, percentages, and intent.
> oh ok, so you have a minimum body count to consider the G word Ok.

It's one criterion, but really, I don't care much for such definitions.
I can follow math definitions; nearly everything else is vague. Even in
physics, which is the second most accurate scientific discipline, the
definitions are images, projections of something which we cannot fully
grasp. Now, like all people, I use words that everybody uses, and that
are thrown around, incl. "genocide", but I don't assign them any great
importance. From following your posts over a few years, I fail to
understand why you find it important to put a label on what Putin
is doing.

> Intent well, I think he intended to invade, and I think he doesn't care
> about the 10,000's of innocent deaths [so far] his adventure in Ukraine
> has caused.
>
> I see why both you guys are soft on putin.

I don't see how "brutal murderer", "guilty of major war crimes", "filthy
lying propagandist" etc. is "soft"(?)

> As a holocaust promoter, you don't want to see anything even remotely
> competing with that, and want to reserve the G word for the JOOS unless
> maybe putin is verified to have slain 2.5 million Ukrainians or so.

I'm not a Holocaust promoter nor defender of the JOOS. But the genocide
(or call it by any other name) they suffered in Europe *was* unique in
all the criteria I listed (intent/absolute number killed/percentage
killed). It's simply a fact.

And I pray we won't see anything like that in the Ukraine. I believe
we won't.

Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms

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Subject: Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
References: <OAX7K.286779$4JN7.246121@fx05.iad>
<chf9K.109436$Kdf.30791@fx96.iad> <t44cug$nm0$1@pcls7.std.com>
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From: zo...@so.org (JeSSe)
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 by: JeSSe - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 01:03 UTC

Loose Cannon wrote:
> In article <Rxk9K.28548$JaS8.2891@fx47.iad>, JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:
>
>> Loose Cannon wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Well, again, it's a question of absolute numbers, percentages, and intent.
>
>> oh ok, so you have a minimum body count to consider the G word Ok.
>
> It's one criterion, but really, I don't care much for such definitions.
> I can follow math definitions; nearly everything else is vague. Even in
> physics, which is the second most accurate scientific discipline, the
> definitions are images, projections of something which we cannot fully
> grasp. Now, like all people, I use words that everybody uses, and that
> are thrown around, incl. "genocide", but I don't assign them any great
> importance. From following your posts over a few years, I fail to
> understand why you find it important to put a label on what Putin
> is doing.

Well, this is the first time that I have been confronted with a nuclear
armed, genocidal maniac, so theres that, I hardly think my posts of
years past would be helpful.
I and many others really do get the feeling that we are witnessing a
throwback to the 1930's/40's here ,, And I suppose people danced on
eggshells then too, afraid to call out Nazis/Russians on the basis that
leaders would be upset and tensions would rise, there were no doubt many
business interests then as now arguing for one course or the other.

And people ask now "Why didn't people do something, why didn't people
say something, how could they just let this happen ??" Well, now we are
seeing why, with the added threat of destruction at the press of a
button thrown into the sordid mix.

We are about to get into another mix with the planet poisoners over
Taiwan, so I also think its important to set an example for cross eyed
Xi what can happen to war mongering nation wreckers, for what little
good that might do.

You get the gist of it, for some reason I can't quite express exactly
what I think and feel, which is crystal clear.
Not that I am under the delusion that I personally can do anything about
it, we are all more or less farting in the wind and let the breeze blow
it where it may.

>
>> Intent well, I think he intended to invade, and I think he doesn't care
>> about the 10,000's of innocent deaths [so far] his adventure in Ukraine
>> has caused.
>>
>> I see why both you guys are soft on putin.
>
> I don't see how "brutal murderer", "guilty of major war crimes", "filthy
> lying propagandist" etc. is "soft"(?)

True, I thought of that - "belly licker" even.
You shrink from calling his brute action genocidal, and I grant that is
debatable to no ones satisfaction.

>
>> As a holocaust promoter, you don't want to see anything even remotely
>> competing with that, and want to reserve the G word for the JOOS unless
>> maybe putin is verified to have slain 2.5 million Ukrainians or so.
>
> I'm not a Holocaust promoter nor defender of the JOOS. But the genocide
> (or call it by any other name) they suffered in Europe *was* unique in
> all the criteria I listed (intent/absolute number killed/percentage
> killed). It's simply a fact.
>
> And I pray we won't see anything like that in the Ukraine. I believe
> we won't.
>

I believe we are, as we speak. Sheer numbers no, obviously not unless
vlad goes nuke.

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 09:41:03 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 09:41 UTC

In article <srm9K.3498$HLy4.3270@fx38.iad>, JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> Well, this is the first time that I have been confronted with a nuclear
> armed, genocidal maniac, so theres that, I hardly think my posts of
> years past would be helpful.
> I and many others really do get the feeling that we are witnessing a
> throwback to the 1930's/40's here ,, And I suppose people danced on
> eggshells then too, afraid to call out Nazis/Russians on the basis that
> leaders would be upset and tensions would rise, there were no doubt many
> business interests then as now arguing for one course or the other.

You're correct, it *is* a scary and new situation.

Well there was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

perhaps there is some similarity? Although there it was limited in
area, they did not attack Vietnam's capital and major cities.

One question is -- suppose he starts killing civilians on a really
huge scale, I mean thousands daily. What will the West do? I guess
we will have WW3. Probably our initial reaction will be to hit his
army real hard, followed by attacks on the Kremlin etc., and then,
well, God help us.

> And people ask now "Why didn't people do something, why didn't people
> say something, how could they just let this happen ??" Well, now we are
> seeing why, with the added threat of destruction at the press of a
> button thrown into the sordid mix.

Well we are doing something(s) -- giving the Ukraine weapons, accepting
refugees.

> We are about to get into another mix with the planet poisoners over
> Taiwan, so I also think its important to set an example for cross eyed
> Xi what can happen to war mongering nation wreckers, for what little
> good that might do.

Agreed.

> You get the gist of it, for some reason I can't quite express exactly
> what I think and feel, which is crystal clear.
> Not that I am under the delusion that I personally can do anything about
> it, we are all more or less farting in the wind and let the breeze blow
> it where it may.

We all have too much spare time! :)

But seriously, while I cannot explain *why* I post here and there, still I
just want to do it.

[...]

>> And I pray we won't see anything like that in the Ukraine. I believe
>> we won't.

> I believe we are, as we speak. Sheer numbers no, obviously not unless
> vlad goes nuke.

I still pray and hope it will end soon. If not, God help them -- and
everyone else.

Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: Macron, Le Pen square off for decisive debate as vote looms
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 17:10:20 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:10 UTC

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 09:41:03 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> One question is -- suppose he starts killing civilians on a really
> huge scale, I mean thousands daily. What will the West do? I guess
> we will have WW3. Probably our initial reaction will be to hit his
> army real hard, followed by attacks on the Kremlin etc., and then,
> well, God help us.

That is the big questions. I read an article in which ex foreign ministers, generals and the like, agreed NATO and the west not getting involved in WW3 was paramount.

Their collective belief was that not even a strategic nuke dropped on Kiev would provoke an aggressive military response, and I suspect genocide would be the same.

They felt it would take multiple nukes, multiple chemical weapons attacks, to elicit a military response, and even then only if deliberately targeting civilians.

They believed the NATO and western response would be, and should be, ever tougher and debilitating sanctions.

But they did note an attack on a NATO member should by rote trigger a military response.

Which is what hands Putin the upper-hand. He can force us onto the battlefield against our will or laugh as we pretend his attacks on NATO aren't.

NATO and the west have never had a strategy for going up against an opponent where any win will also be a defeat, for everyone.

I don't know what NATO were thinking when they decided to go after Russia. It's not as if their recent ventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria have been successful in any way.

It seems to me they jumped aboard the Cancel Culture Bus without any though for the inevitable consequences of what they were doing, what they were hoping for.

Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine was meant to discourage such things, but it seems to me NATO doesn't care if they destroy the world, are determined to bring it about. And that's a view shared from the far left with Jeremy Corbyn to the far right with Nigel Farage.

As to the bottom line on genocide, I would say the lack of willingness to call what has been seen as genocide shows the reluctance of NATO to act even if it were actual genocide. Only those wanting to plunge us into WW3 are demanding it be called genocide. Last man standing wins has never been a great strategy nor intelligent goal.

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