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aus+uk / uk.current-events.terrorism / Re: The other side of the story

SubjectAuthor
* The other side of the storyThe Happy Hippy
+* Re: The other side of the storyTWP
|`* Re: The other side of the storyThe Happy Hippy
| +* Re: The other side of the storyTWP
| |+* Re: The other side of the storyTWP
| ||`* Re: The other side of the storyTWP
| || `- Re: The other side of the storyMohammed
| |`- Re: The other side of the storyThe Happy Hippy
| `- Re: The other side of the storyTWP
`- Re: The other side of the storyTWP

1
The other side of the story

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
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Subject: The other side of the story
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 12:23:55 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:23 UTC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61272203

<quote>

After Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine on 24 February, the UN held an emergency vote - 141 nations out of 193 UN member states voted a week later to condemn it. But a number of major countries chose to abstain, including China, India and South Africa. So it would be delusional for Western leaders to believe that the entire world shares Nato's view - that Russia is entirely to blame for this catastrophic war - because it doesn't.

</quote>

What is odd is the article completely failing to mention NATO breaking their promise not to expand eastward, breaking their promise not to put troops on Russia's borders, nor does it mention sanctions intended to destroy Russia being imposed before the invasion occurred.

The BBC are as afraid to step beyond the official narrative, afraid of suggesting that NATO provoked the conflict and looming World War, as most media outlets are.

It is perhaps understandable when the government threatens to cancel the BBC if it exercises Free Speech, tells the truth.

Re: The other side of the story

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 by: TWP - Sun, 1 May 2022 12:25 UTC

On 30/04/2022 12:23, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61272203
>
> <quote>
>
> After Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine on 24 February, the UN held an emergency vote - 141 nations out of 193 UN member states voted a week later to condemn it. But a number of major countries chose to abstain, including China, India and South Africa. So it would be delusional for Western leaders to believe that the entire world shares Nato's view - that Russia is entirely to blame for this catastrophic war - because it doesn't.
>
> </quote>
>
> What is odd is the article completely failing to mention NATO breaking their promise not to expand eastward, breaking their promise not to put troops on Russia's borders, nor does it mention sanctions intended to destroy Russia being imposed before the invasion occurred.
>
> The BBC are as afraid to step beyond the official narrative, afraid of suggesting that NATO provoked the conflict and looming World War, as most media outlets are.
>
> It is perhaps understandable when the government threatens to cancel the BBC if it exercises Free Speech, tells the truth.
>

NATO expanding Eastwards meant nothing for Russian military security.
If we placed a missile 10 miles from the Russian border Russia could
have placed one five miles from the border.

Putin isn't doing this because of NATO expansion he's doing it because
he sensed a moment of Weakness and indecisive leadership from the US and
thought he could get in and have Ukraine locked down before anyone knew
what was happening. I didn't think NATO would just let that happen.
It's all to much moving around of Russian military too close to NATO
members.

Re: The other side of the story

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
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Subject: Re: The other side of the story
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 1 May 2022 13:11 UTC

On Sun, 1 May 2022 13:25:50 +0100
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> NATO expanding Eastwards meant nothing for Russian military security.
> If we placed a missile 10 miles from the Russian border Russia could
> have placed one five miles from the border.

That seems to be a u-turn on your previously expressed view that the only solution would be a DMZ between Russia and the West.

Which is what we had before NATO broke their promise and expanded eastwards.

Re: The other side of the story

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 by: TWP - Sun, 1 May 2022 13:39 UTC

On 01/05/2022 14:11, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> On Sun, 1 May 2022 13:25:50 +0100
> TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> NATO expanding Eastwards meant nothing for Russian military security.
>> If we placed a missile 10 miles from the Russian border Russia could
>> have placed one five miles from the border.
>
> That seems to be a u-turn on your previously expressed view that the only solution would be a DMZ between Russia and the West.
>
> Which is what we had before NATO broke their promise and expanded eastwards.
>

No, I'm saying that NATO 'expansion' isn't a true threat to Russia. If
Russia insisted that it was to the point of fighting a war on the
subject then (and I think this is what I suggested) an area of the
Ukraine - and a corresponding area of Russia to be fair - could just
agree not to host a military force. Another way was for Ukraine to be a
part-member of NATO where it could claim mutual defence but wouldn't
host NATO forces or equipment.

It doesn't look like that's what we're playing for now though.

Re: The other side of the story

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 by: TWP - Sun, 1 May 2022 13:43 UTC

On 01/05/2022 14:39, TWP wrote:
> On 01/05/2022 14:11, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 13:25:50 +0100
>> TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> NATO expanding Eastwards meant nothing for Russian military security.
>>> If we placed a missile 10 miles from the Russian border Russia could
>>> have placed one five miles from the border.
>>
>> That seems to be a u-turn on your previously expressed view that the
>> only solution would be a DMZ between Russia and the West.
>>
>> Which is what we had before NATO broke their promise and expanded
>> eastwards.
>>
>
> No, I'm saying that NATO 'expansion' isn't a true threat to Russia.  If
> Russia insisted that it was to the point of fighting a war on the
> subject then (and I think this is what I suggested) an area of the
> Ukraine - and a corresponding area of Russia to be fair - could just
> agree not to host a military force.  Another way was for Ukraine to be a
> part-member of NATO where it could claim mutual defence but wouldn't
> host NATO forces or equipment.
>

One possible down-side to that idea is that Ukraine had agreed to disarm
once before in exchange for a promise that Russia wouldn't invade them.
They may not have felt all that confident that we'd risk a war with
Russia - a real one, not a proxy - to save Ukraine.

Re: The other side of the story

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 by: TWP - Sun, 1 May 2022 13:53 UTC

On 01/05/2022 14:11, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> On Sun, 1 May 2022 13:25:50 +0100
> TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> NATO expanding Eastwards meant nothing for Russian military security.
>> If we placed a missile 10 miles from the Russian border Russia could
>> have placed one five miles from the border.
>
> That seems to be a u-turn on your previously expressed view that the only solution would be a DMZ between Russia and the West.
>
> Which is what we had before NATO broke their promise and expanded eastwards.
>

I think this is what you were talking about. This is from about three
months ago, although I might have talked about it since then:

TWP
3 months ago

Discussion:
NATO/Ukraine preparing to attack Russia
(too old to reply)
JeSSe
3 months ago
Permalink

Post by JeSSe
Yes I realize that this cheap propaganda is for Soviet public
consumption but they are not that stupid, Putin takes a risk putting out
childish propaganda like this, obviously everyone knows no one is
planning to attack Russia and in fact, the only one planning to attack
is Russia.
```````````````
Absolutely. I just replied pretty much the same thing to HH.

This is about Russian expansion not NATO. If NATO expands it'll be
largely political and peaceful, if Russia expands it'll be boots on the
ground in someone else's country. Lots of boots probably. Russia has
been creating buffer zones out of other peoples' countries for the last
70 years. I love how NATO is now the bad guy.

Ukraine should be made a NATO member then create a DMZ. We've seen that
it works in NK then the political sphere of influence argument can be
settled and the pushing and shoving can be over the DMZ instead of the
whole country.

We really don't want force and fear to become successful tools of
statecraft whether or not its actually fake. I don't like the idea of
lots of pushing and shoving between nuclear powers but if one side gets
the idea that the other side will always back down at the brink then
we'll get pushed to the brink all the time. We'll always have bombers
flying over us and 'troops on the border'.

Re: The other side of the story

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 by: TWP - Sun, 1 May 2022 14:07 UTC

>> Another way was for Ukraine to be
a part-member of NATO where it could claim mutual defence but wouldn't
host NATO forces or equipment.
>>
>

>
To be clear I'm saying not host foreign force NATO equipment not total
Ukranian disarmament.

Re: The other side of the story

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 by: TWP - Sun, 1 May 2022 14:39 UTC

On 30/04/2022 12:23, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61272203
>
> <quote>
>
> After Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine on 24 February, the UN held an emergency vote - 141 nations out of 193 UN member states voted a week later to condemn it. But a number of major countries chose to abstain, including China, India and South Africa. So it would be delusional for Western leaders to believe that the entire world shares Nato's view - that Russia is entirely to blame for this catastrophic war - because it doesn't.
>
> </quote>
>
> What is odd is the article completely failing to mention NATO breaking their promise not to expand eastward, breaking their promise not to put troops on Russia's borders, nor does it mention sanctions intended to destroy Russia being imposed before the invasion occurred.
>
> The BBC are as afraid to step beyond the official narrative, afraid of suggesting that NATO provoked the conflict and looming World War, as most media outlets are.
>
> It is perhaps understandable when the government threatens to cancel the BBC if it exercises Free Speech, tells the truth.
>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkJ9Q7TKrBE around 33:00
Scott Adams

Talks about a suggestion that NATO is scrapped and a new mutual-defence
organisation that anyone can join be formed.

I can't see that working as long as Russia says they object to foreign
weapons on their border, which you could end up with, NATO or not,
whoever the weapons were there for.

Re: The other side of the story

<t4mbfn$1d2g$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
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Subject: Re: The other side of the story
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 by: Mohammed - Sun, 1 May 2022 16:11 UTC

On 01/05/2022 15:07, TWP wrote:
>>> Another way was for Ukraine to be
> a part-member of NATO where it could claim mutual defence but wouldn't
> host NATO forces or equipment.
>>>
>>
>
>>
> To be clear I'm saying not host foreign force NATO equipment not total
> Ukranian disarmament.

You're quite wrong, IMO. I think you're reiterating some of the western
media narrative on the subject; it has been repeated long enough. A
media which has numerous sources, nations and avenues, but yet somehow
seems to be singing from the same hymn sheet. I'm not saying is it
planned, but it does tend to happen all too often in such cases.

Ukraine was targetted by NATO and the USA, in 2014 there was an western
backed coup, to bring Ukraine under the western political wing. To cut
it short, Ukraine has been signalling that it will follow western
nations and adopt an "anti-Moscow" stance in some elements. Look at some
of the deals that were made between Ukraine and America only late last
year. I don't blame Ukraine, the west can offer it more financially, as
it controls the worlds economy in essence. To say Russia doesn't see
NATO expansion towards its border, military drills and provocative
military parades that are conducted in that region as a threat isn't
correct.

The USA would not accept and would certainly see it as a serious threat
if friendly military parades were being carried out in Mexico or Canada
near the border with the USA, involving Russian troops.

Re: The other side of the story

<20220501212242.00002ae4@ntlworld.invalid>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=4590&group=uk.current-events.terrorism#4590

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The other side of the story
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 21:22:42 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 1 May 2022 20:22 UTC

On Sun, 1 May 2022 14:39:01 +0100
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 01/05/2022 14:11, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> > On Sun, 1 May 2022 13:25:50 +0100
> > TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> NATO expanding Eastwards meant nothing for Russian military
> >> security. If we placed a missile 10 miles from the Russian border
> >> Russia could have placed one five miles from the border.
> >
> > That seems to be a u-turn on your previously expressed view that
> > the only solution would be a DMZ between Russia and the West.
> >
> > Which is what we had before NATO broke their promise and expanded
> > eastwards.
>
> No, I'm saying that NATO 'expansion' isn't a true threat to Russia.

Russia thinks it is. Just as America thought putting missiles on Cuba was. Just as we would think it was if Scotland gained independence and invited Russia to install a military airbase there.

> If Russia insisted that it was to the point of fighting a war on the
> subject then (and I think this is what I suggested) an area of the
> Ukraine - and a corresponding area of Russia to be fair - could just
> agree not to host a military force. Another way was for Ukraine to
> be a part-member of NATO where it could claim mutual defence but
> wouldn't host NATO forces or equipment.
>
> It doesn't look like that's what we're playing for now though.

No. During German reunification NATO promised not to expand eastwards, promised not to put troops on Russia's borders, promised a DMZ, a neutral zone, to ensure Russia would feel secure and not threatened. We get East Germany, you get guaranteed security.

But then NATO reneged on that, have done exactly what Russia said would be considered as threatening their security.

Russia's actual goal was to take the east of Ukraine and make that the DMZ as you are suggesting. But Ukraine is saying no, NATO is saying no. They aren't open to a peaceful settlement. Biden and Johnson have been saying Russia must be crushed, left impotent.

I don't believe NATO is an actual threat to Russia at present because we are too scared of World War III and getting nuked. But there are those who say don't worry about that. Nutters in the west who would consider killing us all a victory if it destroys Russia.

Russia has a not unreasonable fear of NATO and the west going nutso, just as we fear some Middle Eastern Mullah going nutso.

NATO is trying to have its cake and eat it in moving more and more troops towards Russia while saying we aren't threatening Russia. Russia gets to decide what it looks like.

As to Ukraine joining NATO, even becoming some kind of associated member - Not going to happen.

At best they'll get what they've got now. Promises from the west that we'll aid them but that's all.

I reckon we have another couple of months before we get bored of it, start objecting to the costs and start asking why Ukraine doesn't relinquish the east of Ukraine which hasn't considered itself a part of Ukraine since 2014 into Russian hands.

The problem is that Ukraine is a proxy war. The true conflict is not going to be over until the west stops trying to destroy Russia, trying to bring about regime change. We are right on their red lines.

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