While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully not
only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently making
good progress.

> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market

It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.

> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/

As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.

How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric looks
like a bad choice :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:36:39 +1000, Noddy wrote:

> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully not
> only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently making
> good progress.
>
>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>
> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>
>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>
> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>
> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric looks
> like a bad choice :)

When normal people;
a) refer to an "IC engine" they're referring to a petrol engine.
b) declare that "new car prices have fallen", it is understood by other
normal people to mean the *relative* price.
c) claim that they did something it is usually true.

And then there's Darren...

alvey
“My old man was a returned serviceman Ron (he fought in Korea) and *hated*
Asians with a passion…”. Fraudster, 09Oct08
https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/

On 3/09/2021 12:28 pm, alvey wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:36:39 +1000, Noddy wrote:
>
>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully not
>> only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently making
>> good progress.
>>
>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>
>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>
>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric looks
>> like a bad choice :)
> When normal people;
> a) refer to an "IC engine" they're referring to a petrol engine.

isn't a hydrogen engine an IC (Internal Combusion) engine? I believe so.

> b) declare that "new car prices have fallen", it is understood by other
> normal people to mean the *relative* price.

yep

> c) claim that they did something it is usually true.
>
> And then there's Darren...

yep

>
>
> alvey
> “My old man was a returned serviceman Ron (he fought in Korea) and *hated*
> Asians with a passion…”. Fraudster, 09Oct08
> https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/
>

so easy to disprove that false claim, and insult to all who did serve in
that conflict

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 3/9/21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully not
> only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently making
> good progress.
>
>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>
>
> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>
>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>
>
> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>
> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric looks
> like a bad choice :)
>
>
Looks like hydrogen is best suited to engines that started life burning
diesel because they are already built stronger to suit higher compression.
No reason they couldn't be adapted for use in cars.
Certainly a better option for those who don't have access to fast
charging or need to travel longer distances and don't want to waste time
waiting for batteries to charge.
My guess is we will have a mixture of both technologies.

--
Daryl

On 3/09/2021 1:09 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 3/9/21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>> making good progress.
>>
>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>
>>
>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>
>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>
>>
>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>
>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>
>>
> Looks like hydrogen is best suited to engines that started life
> burning diesel because they are already built stronger to suit higher
> compression.
> No reason they couldn't be adapted for use in cars.
> Certainly a better option for those who don't have access to fast
> charging or need to travel longer distances and don't want to waste
> time waiting for batteries to charge.
> My guess is we will have a mixture of both technologies.
>
>

more likely that electric/petrol hybrids will become the norm, at least
in the near future. EV's won't become popular until replaceable/swapable
batteries become standard imo

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 3/9/21 1:17 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 3/09/2021 1:09 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 3/9/21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>>> making good progress.
>>>
>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>>
>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>>
>>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>>
>>>
>> Looks like hydrogen is best suited to engines that started life
>> burning diesel because they are already built stronger to suit higher
>> compression.
>> No reason they couldn't be adapted for use in cars.
>> Certainly a better option for those who don't have access to fast
>> charging or need to travel longer distances and don't want to waste
>> time waiting for batteries to charge.
>> My guess is we will have a mixture of both technologies.
>>
>>
>
> more likely that electric/petrol hybrids will become the norm, at least

Yes, Toyota is putting their efforts into hybrids, PHEVs and not as much
into BEVs. That said, development strategies in hybrids and the like
flow directly into BEVs. What they are looking into is development into
hydrogen fuel cell hybrids. That should be interesting.

> in the near future. EV's won't become popular until replaceable/swapable
> batteries become standard imo
>
I'm more concerned, at this stage, at the requirements of raw materials
for batteries and electric motors - the rare earths, for instance, like
lithium. Is there sufficient capacity for total replacement of *all*
petrol and diesel fueled IC engined vehicles? I doubt it, they aren't
called rare earths for nothing.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 3/09/2021 1:27 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 3/9/21 1:17 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>> On 3/09/2021 1:09 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 3/9/21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>>>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets
>>>> for them to become your only new car choice, some people are
>>>> thankfully not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities
>>>> and apparently making good progress.
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking
>>>> at the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their
>>>> lineup.
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and
>>>> strewn with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential
>>>> for the Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero
>>>> emissions world.
>>>>
>>>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>>>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Looks like hydrogen is best suited to engines that started life
>>> burning diesel because they are already built stronger to suit
>>> higher compression.
>>> No reason they couldn't be adapted for use in cars.
>>> Certainly a better option for those who don't have access to fast
>>> charging or need to travel longer distances and don't want to waste
>>> time waiting for batteries to charge.
>>> My guess is we will have a mixture of both technologies.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> more likely that electric/petrol hybrids will become the norm, at least
>
> Yes, Toyota is putting their efforts into hybrids, PHEVs and not as
> much into BEVs. That said, development strategies in hybrids and the
> like flow directly into BEVs. What they are looking into is
> development into hydrogen fuel cell hybrids. That should be interesting.
>
>> in the near future. EV's won't become popular until
>> replaceable/swapable batteries become standard imo
>>
> I'm more concerned, at this stage, at the requirements of raw
> materials for batteries and electric motors - the rare earths, for
> instance, like lithium. Is there sufficient capacity for total
> replacement of *all* petrol and diesel fueled IC engined vehicles? I
> doubt it, they aren't called rare earths for nothing.
>

the stupid ideologically driven governments we have today ignore such
practical considerations

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 3/09/2021 11:07 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 3/09/2021 12:28 pm, alvey wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:36:39 +1000, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully not
>>> only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently making
>>> good progress.
>>>
>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>>
>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>>
>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>>
>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>>
>>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric looks
>>> like a bad choice :)
>> When normal people;
>> a) refer to an "IC engine" they're referring to a petrol engine.
>
>
> isn't a hydrogen engine an IC (Internal Combusion) engine? I believe so.
>
>
>> b) declare that "new car prices have fallen", it is understood by other
>> normal people to mean the *relative* price.
>
>
> yep
>
>
>> c) claim that they did something it is usually true.
>>
>> And then there's Darren...
>
>
> yep
>
>
>>
>>
>> alvey
>> “My old man was a returned serviceman Ron (he fought in Korea) and
>> *hated*
>> Asians with a passion…”. Fraudster, 09Oct08
>> https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/
>
>
> so easy to disprove that false claim, and insult to all who did serve in
> that conflict
>
>

Indeed, but as he has proven many times he has no morals, so that won't
bother him in the slightest.

That his mates don't question or comment on his claim and evidently are
happy to enable such a lowlife speaks volumes of the kind of people they
are too.

On 3/09/2021 1:50 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 3/09/2021 11:07 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>> On 3/09/2021 12:28 pm, alvey wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:36:39 +1000, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>>>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>>>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>>>> not
>>>> only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>>>> making
>>>> good progress.
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>>>
>>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>>>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>>>
>>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>>>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>>>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>>>
>>>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>>>> looks
>>>> like a bad choice :)
>>> When normal people;
>>> a) refer to an "IC engine" they're referring to a petrol engine.
>>
>>
>> isn't a hydrogen engine an IC (Internal Combusion) engine? I believe so.
>>
>>
>>> b) declare that "new car prices have fallen", it is understood by other
>>> normal people to mean the *relative* price.
>>
>>
>> yep
>>
>>
>>> c) claim that they did something it is usually true.
>>>
>>> And then there's Darren...
>>
>>
>> yep
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> alvey
>>> “My old man was a returned serviceman Ron (he fought in Korea) and
>>> *hated*
>>> Asians with a passion…”. Fraudster, 09Oct08
>>> https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/
>>
>>
>> so easy to disprove that false claim, and insult to all who did serve
>> in that conflict
>>
>>
>
> Indeed, but as he has proven many times he has no morals, so that
> won't bother him in the slightest.
>
> That his mates don't question or comment on his claim and evidently
> are happy to enable such a lowlife speaks volumes of the kind of
> people they are too.
>

yes indeed. he can say anything and and not a peep out of them

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 3/09/2021 1:09 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 3/9/21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:

>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>
>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>
>>
> Looks like hydrogen is best suited to engines that started life burning
> diesel because they are already built stronger to suit higher compression.

It's probably the easiest starting point, sure.

> No reason they couldn't be adapted for use in cars.

Not at all.

> Certainly a better option for those who don't have access to fast
> charging or need to travel longer distances and don't want to waste time
> waiting for batteries to charge.
> My guess is we will have a mixture of both technologies.

I think so too, but in any case *both* will need some significant
improvements if they're going to be employed with the same level of
convenience that petrol & diesel affords us now.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

Noddy <me@home.com> wrote:
>
>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>
> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>
>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>
> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.

It was early days in the mid-80s, here in Australia:
https://csiropedia.csiro.au/hydrogen-power-1984/

Looked quite promising, I don't suppose anyone knows what the fate
of that hydrogen-powered car project was? Seems like the sort of
thing that the Australian car industry might have been wiser to
focus on.

Some solar hydrogen generation research is still going on here at
least:
https://arena.gov.au/projects/solar-thermochemical-hydrogen-research-and-development/
https://arena.gov.au/projects/efficient-solar-hydrogen-generation/

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 3/9/21 3:21 pm, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Noddy <me@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>
>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>
>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>
>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>
> It was early days in the mid-80s, here in Australia:
> https://csiropedia.csiro.au/hydrogen-power-1984/

The same problems that existed with burning hydrogen instead of petrol
in IC engines way back then still exist now. The two most notable being
where you source the hydrogen and its storage.
>
> Looked quite promising, I don't suppose anyone knows what the fate
> of that hydrogen-powered car project was? Seems like the sort of
> thing that the Australian car industry might have been wiser to
> focus on.
>
> Some solar hydrogen generation research is still going on here at
> least:
> https://arena.gov.au/projects/solar-thermochemical-hydrogen-research-and-development/
> https://arena.gov.au/projects/efficient-solar-hydrogen-generation/
>
Hydrogen fuel cells will the the most likely use in cars, if it is used
at all.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully not
> only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently making
> good progress.
>
>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>
>
> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>
>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>
>
> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>
> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric looks
> like a bad choice :)
>

Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and is
difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen will
also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).

Sylvia.

On 3/09/2021 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>> making good progress.
>>
>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>
>>
>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>
>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>
>>
>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>
>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>
>
>
> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
> inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and is
> difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen will
> also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).
>
> Sylvia.
>

**You won't win that argument. Nods likes noisy, grossly inefficient
vehicles. Quiet, fast, fuel efficient vehicles are no use to him. H2
makes some sense for a fuel cell vehicle, but no sense for an IC engined
one. As you say, it will be grossly inefficient on many levels. BTW:
Don't get too hung up on the NOx thing. NOx emissions are MUCH lower on
an H2 engined vehicle, than they are on an ICE vehicle.

On 3/9/21 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>> making good progress.
>>
>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>
>>
>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>
>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>
>>
>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>
>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>
>
>
> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
> inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and is
> difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen will
> also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).
>
> Sylvia.
>
He isn't bright enough to understand those simple facts. Hydrogen as a
fuel cell has a lot more promise but, even then, only if the hydrogen
comes from a sustainable resource.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 3/9/21 4:27 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 3/09/2021 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>>> making good progress.
>>>
>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>>
>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>>
>>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
>> inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and
>> is difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen
>> will also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).
>>
>> Sylvia.
>>
>
> **You won't win that argument. Nods likes noisy, grossly inefficient
> vehicles. Quiet, fast, fuel efficient vehicles are no use to him. H2
> makes some sense for a fuel cell vehicle, but no sense for an IC engined
> one. As you say, it will be grossly inefficient on many levels. BTW:
> Don't get too hung up on the NOx thing. NOx emissions are MUCH lower on
> an H2 engined vehicle, than they are on an ICE vehicle.

Correction, they are lower *only* if you promote further inefficiency
from the hydrogen IC engine.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 3/9/21 3:21 pm, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Noddy <me@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>
>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>>
>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>
>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>
>> It was early days in the mid-80s, here in Australia:
>> https://csiropedia.csiro.au/hydrogen-power-1984/
>
> The same problems that existed with burning hydrogen instead of petrol
> in IC engines way back then still exist now. The two most notable being
> where you source the hydrogen and its storage.

The storage tanks that they were developing seemed convincing. As
for sourcing the hydrogen it's not dissimilar to the problem of
sourcing electricity, only the technology for generating hydrogen
efficiently from solar energy isn't as advanced.

>> Looked quite promising, I don't suppose anyone knows what the fate
>> of that hydrogen-powered car project was? Seems like the sort of
>> thing that the Australian car industry might have been wiser to
>> focus on.
>>
>> Some solar hydrogen generation research is still going on here at
>> least:
>> https://arena.gov.au/projects/solar-thermochemical-hydrogen-research-and-development/
>> https://arena.gov.au/projects/efficient-solar-hydrogen-generation/
>>
> Hydrogen fuel cells will the the most likely use in cars, if it is used
> at all.

It's not clear if hydrogen fuel cells can be made to last as long
as many common IC engines (I mean it isn't clear when you try to
research the topic, there are differing claims all over the
place). But that aside, hydrogen fuel cells do seem more promising
these days, but it's interesting to see the IC approach isn't dead.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 3/9/21 4:27 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 3/09/2021 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>>> making good progress.
>>>
>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>>
>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>>
>>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
>> inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and
>> is difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen
>> will also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).
>>
>> Sylvia.
>>
>
> **You won't win that argument. Nods likes noisy, grossly inefficient
> vehicles. Quiet, fast, fuel efficient vehicles are no use to him. H2
> makes some sense for a fuel cell vehicle, but no sense for an IC engined
> one. As you say, it will be grossly inefficient on many levels. BTW:
> Don't get too hung up on the NOx thing. NOx emissions are MUCH lower on
> an H2 engined vehicle, than they are on an ICE vehicle.

You seems to be obsessed with efficiency yet how "efficient" is an EV
that takes hours to fully charge?
Rather depends on you definition of efficient.
Any vehicle that can be refueled in minutes rather than hours is more
efficient, maybe not "fuel efficient" but still more efficient than an EV.

--
Daryl

On 3/9/21 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>> making good progress.
>>
>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>
>>
>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>
>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>
>>
>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>
>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>
>
>
> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
> inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and is
> difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen will
> also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).
>

I haven't seen any number regarding fuel efficiency for hydrogen engines
but current ICE's aren't all that efficient yet they have been doing a
good job of moving people and goods for more than a century.
Hydrogen engines aren't a new idea but the current crop are still in
development so its a bit early to be dismissing the idea.
EV's can fill some of our transportation needs but they are a long way
from being a complete solution especially for people outside of cities
and so far they aren't very good for heavy vehicles or machinery.

--
Daryl

On 3/09/2021 4:50 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 3/9/21 4:27 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 3/09/2021 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>>>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>>>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>>>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>>>> making good progress.
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking
>>>> at the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their
>>>> lineup.
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and
>>>> strewn with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential
>>>> for the Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero
>>>> emissions world.
>>>>
>>>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>>>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
>>> inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and
>>> is difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen
>>> will also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>>
>>
>> **You won't win that argument. Nods likes noisy, grossly inefficient
>> vehicles. Quiet, fast, fuel efficient vehicles are no use to him. H2
>> makes some sense for a fuel cell vehicle, but no sense for an IC
>> engined one. As you say, it will be grossly inefficient on many
>> levels. BTW: Don't get too hung up on the NOx thing. NOx emissions are
>> MUCH lower on an H2 engined vehicle, than they are on an ICE vehicle.
>
> You seems to be obsessed with efficiency yet how "efficient" is an EV
> that takes hours to fully charge?

**You seem to be of the impression that you will have a choice in how
your new car will be powered in a few years.

Hint: You won't.

And, here's the rub: Fossil fuels will be taxed so high in a few years,
that only the truly dedicated and/or very wealthy, will be able to
afford fuel for their fossil fueled vehicles.

> Rather depends on you definition of efficient.

**Efficient is how much energy content of the 'fuel' is converted into
motive energy. The BEST conversion efficiency of a petrol car is 35%
(more with hybrid technology) and around 45% with Diesel. Less
transmission losses, of course. But wait: It gets worse. Those figures
are the BEST efficiency attainable with an ICE vehicle. It is always
much worse. A BEV operates at around 90% (or better) efficiency at all
times. Some operate without any transmission. Less battery charging
losses (around 30% loss).

Why am I concerned about efficiency?

A: Because EVERY SINGLE human on this planet will have to cut emissions
to reduce the impact of global warming. Now I realise that you don't
care, but that is irrelevant, as Australia, as a whole, will be
penalised by the international community for failing to cut CO2 emissions.

> Any vehicle that can be refueled in minutes rather than hours is more
> efficient, maybe not "fuel efficient" but still more efficient than an EV.

**You have a weird, unscientific, way of measuring efficiency.

On 3/09/2021 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully not
> only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently making
> good progress.
>
>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>
>
> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>
>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>
>
> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>
> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric looks
> like a bad choice :)

It probably has its uses but compared to fuel cell/ electric motor
setups it is less efficient and much more complex.

A hydrogen/air fuel cell is about 75% efficient, and electric motors
95+%, the most efficient IC motors to my knowledge are at about 45%, and
they would need a gearbox and transmission. Using hub motors the
electric route need no transmission of any kind, even using chassis
mounted motors, it would only need drive shafts. The IC setup would also
need far more maintenance than the fuel cell one.

Fuel cell setups are being tested in extreme conditions, we'll see how
they perform.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/massive-mine-truck-and-a-baja-off-road-racer-both-find-use-for-fuel-cells/

On 3/09/2021 2:27 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 3/09/2021 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> While a lot of people are getting excited about EV development and
>>> governments around the world pushing ridiculous deadline targets for
>>> them to become your only new car choice, some people are thankfully
>>> not only exploring other zero emissions possibilities and apparently
>>> making good progress.
>>>
>>>> https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-hydrogen-engine-ready-for-the-market
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's early days, but Deutz is doing well. Cummins are also looking at
>>> the possibility of using Hydrogen combustion engines in their lineup.
>>>
>>>> https://www.h2-view.com/story/cummins-to-test-new-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-engine/
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>>
>>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
>> inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and
>> is difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen
>> will also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).
>>
>> Sylvia.
>>
>
> **You won't win that argument. Nods likes noisy, grossly inefficient
> vehicles. Quiet, fast, fuel efficient vehicles are no use to him. H2
> makes some sense for a fuel cell vehicle, but no sense for an IC engined
> one. As you say, it will be grossly inefficient on many levels. BTW:
> Don't get too hung up on the NOx thing. NOx emissions are MUCH lower on
> an H2 engined vehicle, than they are on an ICE vehicle.

The problem is that the fraud only has a lose grip on understanding IC
engines. He denies that which he doesn't understand... and given he
couldn't pass year 9 that is pretty much everything else.

He also can't understand that hydrogen brings with it it's own complexities.

On 3/09/2021 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 03-Sep-21 11:36 am, Noddy wrote:

>> As I said, it's early days and the road ahead will be long and strewn
>> with technological potholes, but clearly there is potential for the
>> Internal Combustion Engine to exist in today's zero emissions world.
>>
>> How knows? Development could progress to the point where Electric
>> looks like a bad choice :)
>>
>
>
> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly.

Why? :)

> It's inefficient at every level,

As far as the average motorist is concerned, "efficiency" is measured in
cost per Kilometer. Not the energy value of the fuel itself. The average
punter most likely couldn't give a crap about the efficiency of the
fuel. If it allowed them to do what they needed to do and it cost less
than petrol would to do it, they'll take it on.

> and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and is difficult to store.

Hydrogen takes up no more space and is no more difficult to store than
any other gaseous fuel.

> An internal combustion engine using hydrogen will
> also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).

In very, very, very, very small numbers. Tests have shown that Hydrogen
burning ICE's which employ catalytic converters and an Exhaust Gas
Recirculation system have NOx outputs of less than 1 part per million.

Whether or not Hydrogen becomes the saviour of the internal combustion
engine is something that remains to be seen, but there is absolutely
*no* reason whatsoever why the idea should not to be explored.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 3/09/2021 4:27 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 3/09/2021 4:23 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:

>> Using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is just silly. It's
>> inefficient at every level, and hydrogen takes up a lot of space and
>> is difficult to store. An internal combustion engine using hydrogen
>> will also still release oxides of nitrogen (NOx).
>>
>> Sylvia.
>>
>
> **You won't win that argument. Nods likes noisy, grossly inefficient
> vehicles. Quiet, fast, fuel efficient vehicles are no use to him.

Jesus you can talk some utter shit at times Trevor.

I like *lots* of different vehicles and for lots of different reasons. I
don't go out of my way to like a vehicle just because it's horribly
inefficient any more than I do to hate a vehicle that is as efficient as
it can possibly be. Efficiency has never been a major concern of mine as
far as vehicles go, but just to counter your bullshit with some reality
I actually own vehicles that are good examples of *both* ends of the
spectrum.

> H2 makes some sense for a fuel cell vehicle, but no sense for an IC engined
> one. As you say, it will be grossly inefficient on many levels.

And yet here are companies like Deutz, Cummins and Toyota putting money
into the idea. Maybe they should have just asked you to begin with and
saved all that coin.

> BTW: Don't get too hung up on the NOx thing. NOx emissions are MUCH lower on
> an H2 engined vehicle, than they are on an ICE vehicle.

Ridiculously so.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 3/09/2021 5:17 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 3/09/2021 4:50 pm, Daryl wrote:

>> You seems to be obsessed with efficiency yet how "efficient" is an EV
>> that takes hours to fully charge?
>
> **You seem to be of the impression that you will have a choice in how
> your new car will be powered in a few years.
>
> Hint: You won't.

Here's Trev with his crystal ball again :)

> And, here's the rub: Fossil fuels will be taxed so high in a few years,
> that only the truly dedicated and/or very wealthy, will be able to
> afford fuel for their fossil fueled vehicles.

I'll be right then :)

>> Rather depends on you definition of efficient.
>
> **Efficient is how much energy content of the 'fuel' is converted into
> motive energy. The BEST conversion efficiency of a petrol car is 35%
> (more with hybrid technology) and around 45% with Diesel. Less
> transmission losses, of course. But wait: It gets worse. Those figures
> are the BEST efficiency attainable with an ICE vehicle. It is always
> much worse. A BEV operates at around 90% (or better) efficiency at all
> times. Some operate without any transmission. Less battery charging
> losses (around 30% loss).

All lovey, and totally insignificant detail.

You seem to be completely ignorant of one tiny, but incredibly important
fact, and that is that as far as "efficiency" is concerned in relation
to vehicles, the average person couldn't give a kilogram of pigshit
about the efficiency rating of the *fuel* they use. All they're
interested in is how much it costs them to run their car per week, and
the effiency of the fuel itself has little bearing on that.

Think LPG Trevor. Compared to petrol it's calorific value is completely
shithouse, but people use it because even though it provides less
"bang", it costs way less bucks.

> Why am I concerned about efficiency?

Because you're a whackjob :)

> A: Because EVERY SINGLE human on this planet will have to cut emissions
> to reduce the impact of global warming. Now I realise that you don't
> care, but that is irrelevant, as Australia, as a whole, will be
> penalised by the international community for failing to cut CO2 emissions.

Really? What are they going to do? Send us a strongly worded letter?

Are you seriously suggesting that countries like the US, Russia, China
and India who produce more climate destroying emissions in a week than
we do in a *year* are going to get up in our face about the 1% of global
output that *we're* responsible for?

>> Any vehicle that can be refueled in minutes rather than hours is more
>> efficient, maybe not "fuel efficient" but still more efficient than an
>> EV.
>
> **You have a weird, unscientific, way of measuring efficiency.

From the bloke who talks about the efficiency of different fuels as if
it actually *means* something to the average guy in the street.

He's here all week Folks, otherwise he's not.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.