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aus+uk / uk.current-events.terrorism / Re: International Law

SubjectAuthor
* International LawMohammed
+* Re: International LawLoose Cannon
|`* Re: International LawMohammed
| +- Re: International LawMohammed
| `* Re: International LawLoose Cannon
|  `* Re: International LawMohammed
|   `- Re: International LawLoose Cannon
`* Re: International LawJeSSe
 `- Re: International LawMohammed

1
International Law

<t4pepe$9jd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: International Law
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 21:26:23 +0100
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 by: Mohammed - Mon, 2 May 2022 20:26 UTC

I feel as though I must condemn Russia before I highlight the real
issues I’d like to raise. I certainly do condemn Russia, it is an unjust
war, it’s a barbaric act; I hope the people making the decisions see
sense and cease. I could provide reasons as to why Russia did as they
did, but that isn’t a justification.

The horrific bombing of a maternity hospital in Mariupol, Ukraine was
immediately by a spectrum of western media sources and political elite
described in terms like “war crimes”. SWIFTLY (yes, in capitals) actions
were taken in order to gather evidence and build a narrative. This
including the international criminal court being persuaded into opening
a case, in view of charging the Russian leadership, Mr. Putin himself.
The bombing without doubt was deplorable, there needs to be justice,
but, I don’t know what that justice is.

In Feb 1991, a shelter in Al-A’amiriya, Baghdad, Iraq, was bombed by the
USA, killing just over 400 civilians. The shelter was known to be and
was marked as a civilian shelter, it was used throughout the war by many
civilians. Some of the families of the dead in Europe started a campaign
to charge USA political leadership for war crimes, but the case was
dismissed within the European state it was submitted. The spectrum of
western media neither did major political leaders call this a war crime.
The list of USA killings of innocent civilians as “mistakes”,
“collateral damage”, including explaining away clear torture etc is
endless.

The chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Fatou
Bensouda, opened a paper about war crimes in Afghanistan. Her findings
were clear, that war crimes had been committed by all sides, including
NATO, the USA, the Taliban, the Afghan army (and whomever else was part
of ‘the coalition of the willing’). For this, the USA applied sanctions
on Ms Bensouda, grouping her in the same category as terrorists,
traffickers, blocking her assets and prohibiting her and her family of
US citizenship and travel. Huge pressure is/was put on the ICC to shut
down the investigation. In fact the USA has an act, called the ‘American
Service-Members Protection Act’, enacted in 2002, also known as the ‘The
Hague Invasion Act’. This acts allows the use of military force to
liberate any American citizen or a citizen of an allied country being
held in court, which is located in The Hague.

Libya, where western backed armed forces and NATO ruthlessly bombed the
country for the removal and subsequent murder of Gaddafi. The HRC
Commission of Inquiry released a report of civilian casualties as a
result of NATO bombing in Libya, this was backed by a Human Right Watch
report. NATO refused to cooperate with the UN commission on the matter.
NATO’s legal advisor Peter Olson in effect stated NATO couldn’t commit
war crimes; because when we kill them it is a mistake. Although when the
opposition kills innocent civilians, it’s usually reported as calculated
deliberate acts of aggression.

In May 2021, Israel carried out an airstrike on a hospital in Gaza,
among the dead were two doctors. The spectrum of western media nor
political elite, non-waved the banner of international law being broken.
There was no encouragement of ‘fact finding’ finding investigations of
criminal activity. In 2014, Israel shelled not one but seven recognised
and known UNRWA shelters in Gaza, all children’s school facilities.
Israel also has a long list of killing civilians, bombing shelter areas,
people’s homes, tactical forms of demolition, displacement of people,
giving deceptive warning etc. No major calls of clear violation of
international law, no major calls for the political elite of Israel
having to face the consequences etc from the spectrum of western media
or political elite. In fact, despite some outrage, any significant
action to bring Israel to account are curtailed by the USA. When the
Palestinian Authority tried to get some sort of outcome of such
investigations, the USA threatened to cut off funding, and Israel
threatened to acceleration occupation activity in the west bank. Israeli
occupation is acceptable, it is humanised in the western sphere, but not
the Russian occupation of Ukraine. In 2009, Israel refused a HRC team
led by Richard Goldstone into the Palestinian areas it occupies. No
international calls of ill-game from the Israeli’s, no chastisement, no
calls of ‘if you’ve got nothing to hide’. Instead the US ambassador to
the UN assured the Israeli foreign minister that the US has organised a
“block coalition” to prevent action on any findings Goldstone’s report
may bring forth.

I can go-on to list the hypocrisies and the double standards of western
powers, who’ve carried out direct and indirect warfare, coups and
instigated murderous campaigns in numerous parts around the world. It’ll
make little difference, the reality on the ground and history shows,
organisations from financial institutes to international laws and their
faculties are designed to empower western nations and their allies above
others, in ensuring the status-quo remains. In those structures are fail
safes, as mentioned above, should someone like Ms Bensouda try to apply
the rules without prejudice, they’ll will be held accountable and
pressured by the entities that in fact exert a level influence and
control over those institutions.

Re: International Law

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: International Law
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 20:48:12 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989
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 by: Loose Cannon - Mon, 2 May 2022 20:48 UTC

In article <t4pepe$9jd$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:

> In May 2021, Israel carried out an airstrike on a hospital in Gaza,

Was this the same case in which an Arab reporter was broadcasting live,
and stated that Hamas was firing rockets at Israeli cities, from the
hospital's parking lot?

Israel certainly fucked up here and there, but you can't just ignore
what the Hamas and Hezbollah are doing.

Re: International Law

<mjZbK.7825$IQK.7310@fx02.iad>

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Subject: Re: International Law
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
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From: zo...@so.org (JeSSe)
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 by: JeSSe - Mon, 2 May 2022 22:55 UTC

Mohammed wrote:

> In Feb 1991, a shelter in Al-A’amiriya, Baghdad, Iraq, was bombed by the
> USA, killing just over 400 civilians. The shelter was known to be and
> was marked as a civilian shelter, it was used throughout the war by many
> civilians.
Camouflaged roof, barbed wire and banks of antennas do not fit the
typical profile of an innocent civilian shelter, sorry.
Saddam packed people in there knowing it would be bombed, knowing that
dead bodies make for good publicity.
--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Re: International Law

<t4r6ni$kmt$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: International Law
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 13:21:07 +0100
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 by: Mohammed - Tue, 3 May 2022 12:21 UTC

On 02/05/2022 23:55, JeSSe wrote:
> Mohammed wrote:
>
>> In Feb 1991, a shelter in Al-A’amiriya, Baghdad, Iraq, was bombed by
>> the USA, killing just over 400 civilians. The shelter was known to be
>> and was marked as a civilian shelter, it was used throughout the war
>> by many civilians.
> Camouflaged roof, barbed wire and banks of antennas do not fit the
> typical profile of an innocent civilian shelter, sorry.
> Saddam packed people in there knowing it would be bombed, knowing that
> dead bodies make for good publicity.

It was recorded as, was widely used throughout the war as such,
according to interviews conducted on the ground. No mentioned as why the
USA put sanctions on a ICC prosecutor, as usual you'll pick out
something to muddy waters and they act as though the wider context is
the same.

Re: International Law

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: International Law
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 14:01:32 +0100
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 by: Mohammed - Tue, 3 May 2022 13:01 UTC

On 02/05/2022 21:48, Loose Cannon wrote:
> In article <t4pepe$9jd$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In May 2021, Israel carried out an airstrike on a hospital in Gaza,
>
> Was this the same case in which an Arab reporter was broadcasting live,
> and stated that Hamas was firing rockets at Israeli cities, from the
> hospital's parking lot?
>

I don't agree with Hamas firing rockets and their tactics. Now that's
out the way, so no pathetic loony can claim I'm in support.

It isn't like Gaza is the size of Texas. Gaza is the most densely
populated place on earth, it is an open air prison. It goes against
logic that Hamas will be able to find a clear zone to fire from, that is
for many reasons. Even the occupying forces, the IDF don't come out into
the open when they carry out their campaigns, despite them having
state-of-the-art weaponry. They only send in foot-soldiers at times
following days of airstrikes (but all those bombs are peaceful). Even in
the night raids, when they terrorise mainly women and children, the
overwhelming vast majority of the time un-armed people, Israeli forces
go in with sound numbers and are well equipped, breaking into people
homes. Then, let's say Hamas fired rockets from the parking lot, why was
the hospital itself bombed, the type of weaponry Hamas has, it relies on
firing, then moving from that area. With all the state-of-the-art tech'
the Israeli's they can easily ascertain the zone was no longer a threat,
but they don't. It is systematic destruction, in such times, of schools,
homes and hospitals. Israeli forces regularly break international law,
including heinous acts of detaining minors. The arrogance of these
people is that, they'll walk armed into places, that are internationally
recognised as not belonging to them, then detain children that aren't
their citizens. The list goes on, there's simply no defending it.

> Israel certainly fucked up here and there, but you can't just ignore
> what the Hamas and Hezbollah are doing.
>

There's an element of truth in that, however that is the type of shallow
and narrow reasoning that has been purported by the western mindset,
allowing the occupier to continue what it does. We're calling the
occupied and the occupier equal, when they're clearly not. It's not like
we don't recognise or understand the concept, we certainly do when it
comes to Ukraine. There's a difference between the two, we all know
that. The occupying force supported by the current world superpower is
superior in every aspect. That occupying force in elements imposes total
control over the people it occupies, yet will lie continuously of the
threat posed by people it occupies, in reality in order to continues a
steady campaign of expanding its territory, using overt and covert tactics.

The Israel in essence slaps the Palestinian people on the face daily,
then should a Palestinian ask them to stop, they'll simply ignore and
continue, should a Palestinian try to retaliate, that Palestinian will
be labelled as a terrorist, thus can be killed on site. If an outside
party shows the Israeli's are hitting the Palestinians daily, that
outside party will be labelled as an anti-Semite. All the while Israel
will be claiming of themselves as peace loving etc.

The idea, that that's how nations are made, is just silly, as that isn't
the case according to the very institutions Israel and the USA use to
gather support. If it was true, and Israel believed it to be true, it
wouldn't be calling those that are fighting to regain their land, as
terrorists. It isn't justifiable in Ukraine, why so in Palestine.

Re: International Law

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: International Law
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 14:22:32 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mohammed - Tue, 3 May 2022 13:22 UTC

On 03/05/2022 14:01, Mohammed wrote:
> On 02/05/2022 21:48, Loose Cannon wrote:
>> In article <t4pepe$9jd$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed
>> <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In May 2021, Israel carried out an airstrike on a hospital in Gaza,
>>
>> Was this the same case in which an Arab reporter was broadcasting live,
>> and stated that Hamas was firing rockets at Israeli cities, from the
>> hospital's parking lot?
>>
>
> I don't agree with Hamas firing rockets and their tactics. Now that's
> out the way, so no pathetic loony can claim I'm in support.
>
> It isn't like Gaza is the size of Texas. Gaza is the most densely
> populated place on earth, it is an open air prison. It goes against
> logic that Hamas will be able to find a clear zone to fire from, that is
> for many reasons. Even the occupying forces, the IDF don't come out into
> the open when they carry out their campaigns, despite them having
> state-of-the-art weaponry. They only send in foot-soldiers at times
> following days of airstrikes (but all those bombs are peaceful). Even in
> the night raids, when they terrorise mainly women and children, the
> overwhelming vast majority of the time un-armed people, Israeli forces
> go in with sound numbers and are well equipped, breaking into people
> homes. Then, let's say Hamas fired rockets from the parking lot, why was
> the hospital itself bombed, the type of weaponry Hamas has, it relies on
> firing, then moving from that area. With all the state-of-the-art tech'
> the Israeli's they can easily ascertain the zone was no longer a threat,
> but they don't. It is systematic destruction, in such times, of schools,
> homes and hospitals. Israeli forces regularly break international law,
> including heinous acts of detaining minors. The arrogance of these
> people is that, they'll walk armed into places, that are internationally
> recognised as not belonging to them, then detain children that aren't
> their citizens. The list goes on, there's simply no defending it.
>

(edit) I can't recall if the hospital itself was bombed.

Re: International Law

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: International Law
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 14:32:53 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Tue, 3 May 2022 14:32 UTC

In article <t4r93b$1oo4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

Apologies for the total snip and for the simplicity (shallowness?) of
my comments. I'm not too interested in the Israeli-Arab conflict, and
one just despairs from that sad affair, which never ends, the religious
insanity (on both sides) making matters worse.

You seem to be very emotionally involved, maybe you have family there,
but I have to say that it seems to affect your judgment.

The current sorry-ass situation is the result mostly of:

1) The colossal Arab stupidity in initiating the 1948 war.

2) The colossal Israeli stupidity in trying to keep the densely
populated areas they took in the 1967 war.

Now, Israel left Gaza, and as I understand, some of the West Bank.
WTF is the Hamas firing, then? Further, why do they refuse to back
down from their demand that ALL of Israel should be "released"?

Suppose Israel just leaves the West Bank, or most of it. What will
happen? Can anyone guarantee that thousands of rockets will not
be fired on all their cities, from a very wide area, in the next
conflict?

It's utterly stupid to -- as some people do -- compare the situation
to bad old colonialism, i.e nations occupying weaker nations thousands
of miles away.

Re the original discussion, well, Israel often retaliated too harshly,
but then again, you can't fire thousands of rockets at one's cities,
in one case causing IIRC 500,000 people to flee their homes, and not
expect a very, very harsh retaliation. Compare to Hamburg and
Hiroshima...

One can only hope for a dose of sanity over there.

Re: International Law

<t4rimp$ft9$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: International Law
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 16:45:29 +0100
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 by: Mohammed - Tue, 3 May 2022 15:45 UTC

On 03/05/2022 15:32, Loose Cannon wrote:
> In article <t4r93b$1oo4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Apologies for the total snip and for the simplicity (shallowness?) of
> my comments. I'm not too interested in the Israeli-Arab conflict, and
> one just despairs from that sad affair, which never ends, the religious
> insanity (on both sides) making matters worse.
>

That is very true. I don't keep up with much news these days, some odd
searching of several sources when I'm bored. It got to the point, I saw
lies, cover-ups and even when true, it was usually just bad news. It was
depressing, and was very hard to accept, the places I and two of
grandparents sided with, I as a consultant and my grandparents being in
the "trenches", that side in fact is a major part of the problem.

So when I write or even talk on these topics, one aspect triggers
another in my mind, usually frustration creeps in, how can one human
being do as such to another human being...

> You seem to be very emotionally involved, maybe you have family there,
> but I have to say that it seems to affect your judgment.
>
> The current sorry-ass situation is the result mostly of:
>
> 1) The colossal Arab stupidity in initiating the 1948 war.
>
> 2) The colossal Israeli stupidity in trying to keep the densely
> populated areas they took in the 1967 war.
>

Agreed.

> Now, Israel left Gaza, and as I understand, some of the West Bank.
> WTF is the Hamas firing, then? Further, why do they refuse to back
> down from their demand that ALL of Israel should be "released"?
>

It's only officially reported as Gaza being left alone, in actual fact
it isn't. Israel controls everything that comes in and out of Gaza, and
maintains sea and air control - these controls are extensive with
constant delays and refusal at times of medication, equipment and goods,
that are to rebuild the very destruction Israel heaps upon the Gazan's
from time to time and not being able carry out simple tasks like fishing
to earn a living or put food on the able. Israel will also from time
send in drone cameras, to intimidate and see how the prisoners are
living. Israel maintains the right enter Gaza with its military and
create a buffer zone within Gaza. Israel will also should it see fit,
carry out "targeted strikes" on places or simply assassinate people it
deems a threat; Israel doesn't let so called truce agreements get in the
way of such activities. On the Egyptian side, Egypt that is second to
Israel in receiving US aid, Egypt has an agreement with Israel that no
goods or personnel may enter or leave without coordination with Israel.
The blockade of Gaza is well known to be illegal, in fact it is an act
of war that is perpetrated on the people of Gaza on a daily basis.

> Suppose Israel just leaves the West Bank, or most of it. What will
> happen? Can anyone guarantee that thousands of rockets will not
> be fired on all their cities, from a very wide area, in the next
> conflict?
>

Israel will not leave the West Bank, many high level Rabbis and the
Jewish alt right, see any taking of territory as an expansion of Israel.
Israel does not have defined borders, there's a reason why. Should
Israel leave the West Bank and do what it has done with Gaza, I would
imagine there'll be a greater escalation of conflict. However, if Israel
leave the West Bank and allows the Palestinians their freedom, without
overtly or covertly looking to control, subdue, and restrict access for
them to the holy sights, I seriously think peace has a chance*.

It not like the Arabs didn't want Jews to be in Palestine, it was the
Arabs that opened Jerusalem for the Jews in history after they were
evicted and restricted by former empires. I've spoken with Jews who've
lived in the ME as far as Yemen, they report, having lived with the
Arabs as brothers and sisters, having ate from the same dish, baby sat
each others children etc; but, as soon as Israel was announced, things
changed. Jews from many places outside of Israel fled, some due to the
fear created by media and political elite, in order to gather Jews to
create a purely Jewish state (no people, no state), and perhaps in
greater part due to the real threat of Arabs seeking vengeance. However
there are Jews in very small minorities still living outside of Israel
mainly in Morocco.

> It's utterly stupid to -- as some people do -- compare the situation
> to bad old colonialism, i.e nations occupying weaker nations thousands
> of miles away.
>
> Re the original discussion, well, Israel often retaliated too harshly,
> but then again, you can't fire thousands of rockets at one's cities,
> in one case causing IIRC 500,000 people to flee their homes, and not
> expect a very, very harsh retaliation. Compare to Hamburg and
> Hiroshima...
>
> One can only hope for a dose of sanity over there.
>
>

I always hope, but reality and now what seems to be a pessimistic
inclination gets in the way.

*for example, there's a strong Christian lobby, self confessed
Evangelicals, aka Christian Zionists, that has long called for war in
the ME between Arabs and Jews (they're not a representation of true
Christians). This Christian group mainly operating in the USA, reports
to have many millions of followers. It has a powerful lobby that courts
politicians on all sides. An affiliate group in the UK, some years back
was able to through politicians they had lobbied, book a meeting in
government office (I believe in the Houses of Parliament, if I recall
correctly), where about just over a dozen or so MP's attended in person,
many others had already pledged support and others were headhunted to
for support (that wasn't there first such meeting). The representation
was across the spectrum of British political parties, Conservatories,
Labour, Lib' Dems', Green etc. This Christian group encourages
occupation in the West Bank, it looks to facilitate the seeking out of
land to taken, where they'll help financially fund a Jewish family to
move into. Knowing that, the infamous quote from a the Jewish
settler/occupier "If If I don't steal your home, someone else will steal
it" makes more sense.

The goal of this so called Christian group is to create a situation of
war in the ME between the Jews and Arabs, and they'll side with the
Jews, as the Jews are "God's people". The result they're expecting is,
that it'll facilitate the return of Jesus' return to earth, who'll lead
them all.

The Jewish alt right has a similar notion, to establish the temple and
and bring about the coming of the Messiah, who'll militarily lead them,
defeating enemies and establishing a world rule.

Minority Muslim groups have a similar notion too, much of it culminating
from and supported by western political elite in the early stages purely
for greed, in what is now known as the KSA. In stages this minority
groups ideology has been watered down, but at times, seemingly when much
needed, usually in times of desperation, it's strands like ISIS take
hold and gain support, at least for a while.

Re: International Law

<t4rq4e$91p$1@pcls7.std.com>

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: International Law
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 17:52:14 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:52 UTC

In article <t4rimp$ft9$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:

[much good stuff deleted for brevity]

I agree with most of what you wrote.

As a non-expert, to me it appears reasonable that Egypt
takes control of Gaza and Jordan of the West Bank, but
it does not seem that's going to happen.

And yes, as you point out the religious issue goes even
deeper (in the negative sense, unfortunately).

How can people assign so much importance to stones? Sigh.

A *shoe*, I would understand!

(shame on all Britons who don't get the reference!)

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