Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

C++ is the best example of second-system effect since OS/360.


aus+uk / uk.current-events.terrorism / Re: GOTCHA

SubjectAuthor
* GOTCHAThe Happy Hippy
`* Re: GOTCHATWP
 `- Re: GOTCHAThe Happy Hippy

1
GOTCHA

<20220502193710.00003706@ntlworld.invalid>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=4614&group=uk.current-events.terrorism#4614

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!news.freedyn.de!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: GOTCHA
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 19:37:10 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <20220502193710.00003706@ntlworld.invalid>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="167bc4aa13714ed2f0bdba32633a2158";
logging-data="6396"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19yaWrRabH+OPhr8ajOn41ClTYWStIfcdU="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:ekGHIbapl88fJ7uEjSCkelWB6zY=
X-Newsreader: Claws Mail 3.18.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 by: The Happy Hippy - Mon, 2 May 2022 18:37 UTC

Hardly a mention that today is the anniversary of the sinking of the Belgrano, outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone, outside the Total Exclusion Zone, sailing away from both, with the loss of 323 lives.

Of course we weren't told the truth and the lie that she was heading towards the exclusion zone, the pretence was an immediate and active threat, was continued until Clive Ponting leaked the truth and was prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act for revealing that truth.

Whatever the merits of the sinking; lying about the circumstances was official government policy. Thatcher and others decided to lie, and continued to lie when they said the actual truth was a lie.

In fact, it's hard to name a Tory PM who wasn't a liar.

Re: GOTCHA

<Gq3cK.1281720$dS2.1043752@fx11.ams4>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=4625&group=uk.current-events.terrorism#4625

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!ecngs!feeder2.ecngs.de!178.20.174.213.MISMATCH!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx11.ams4.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.8.1
Subject: Re: GOTCHA
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
References: <20220502193710.00003706@ntlworld.invalid>
From: ngspamme...@yahoo.co.uk (TWP)
In-Reply-To: <20220502193710.00003706@ntlworld.invalid>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <Gq3cK.1281720$dS2.1043752@fx11.ams4>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@blocknews.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 05:52:38 UTC
Organization: blocknews - www.blocknews.net
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 06:52:38 +0100
X-Received-Bytes: 2608
 by: TWP - Tue, 3 May 2022 05:52 UTC

On 02/05/2022 19:37, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> Hardly a mention that today is the anniversary of the sinking of the Belgrano, outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone, outside the Total Exclusion Zone, sailing away from both, with the loss of 323 lives.
>
> Of course we weren't told the truth and the lie that she was heading towards the exclusion zone, the pretence was an immediate and active threat, was continued until Clive Ponting leaked the truth and was prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act for revealing that truth.
>
> Whatever the merits of the sinking; lying about the circumstances was official government policy. Thatcher and others decided to lie, and continued to lie when they said the actual truth was a lie.
>
> In fact, it's hard to name a Tory PM who wasn't a liar.
>

I'm not sure what difference it made either way, we were at war with
Argentina and the Belgrano was a military vessel. Being outside the
exclusion zone didn't affect that, it just meant they weren't certain to
be attacked. Argentina had no problem attacking Atlantic Conveyor or
the Sheffield or any of the others and those ships were only there
because Argentina had made war on us.

I sort of accepted that it was a 'bad thing' at the time because of the
tone of the news etc and that it was outside the exclusion zone but I'm
not sure what I'd have thought about it now. It would have been better
if the whole conflict hadn't happened. It had no need to.

"Britain WAS right to sink the Belgrano: Newly released intelligence
proves the Argentine ship had been ordered to attack our Task Force"

Updated: 23:59, 30 December 2011

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2080490/Belgrano-Britain-WAS-right-sink-ship-attacked-Task-Force.html

Re: GOTCHA

<20220503115525.0000464b@ntlworld.invalid>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=4628&group=uk.current-events.terrorism#4628

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: GOTCHA
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 11:55:25 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <20220503115525.0000464b@ntlworld.invalid>
References: <20220502193710.00003706@ntlworld.invalid>
<Gq3cK.1281720$dS2.1043752@fx11.ams4>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="87748ecce6a736fa504726f5548173c3";
logging-data="2156"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19sQ5nFygKUXx+paUNBjTeB6/XrDFyyfPI="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:oKCYiTSiWqTZ4ZsICiFo4cVZPSo=
X-Newsreader: Claws Mail 3.18.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 by: The Happy Hippy - Tue, 3 May 2022 10:55 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 06:52:38 +0100
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 02/05/2022 19:37, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> > Hardly a mention that today is the anniversary of the sinking of
> > the Belgrano, outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone, outside the
> > Total Exclusion Zone, sailing away from both, with the loss of 323
> > lives.
> >
> > Of course we weren't told the truth and the lie that she was
> > heading towards the exclusion zone, the pretence was an immediate
> > and active threat, was continued until Clive Ponting leaked the
> > truth and was prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act for
> > revealing that truth.
> >
> > Whatever the merits of the sinking; lying about the circumstances
> > was official government policy. Thatcher and others decided to lie,
> > and continued to lie when they said the actual truth was a lie.
> >
> > In fact, it's hard to name a Tory PM who wasn't a liar.
> >
>
>
> I'm not sure what difference it made either way, we were at war with
> Argentina and the Belgrano was a military vessel.

Because, Geneva Convention, Law of Armed Combat, etc.

The government knew they were on dodgy ground, that declaring all vessels and aircraft, civilian or military, as legitimate targets if Britain decided they were, was a unilateral decision which was not necessarily legal.

The government knew it was on dodgy ground when they ordered the attack, which is why they lied about the circumstances, tried to keep that lie secret. They needed to make it appear more legitimate than even they thought it was.

It is the lying and the cover-up of that lying more than the sinking which I have a problem with.

Also the lie that we hadn't seen the peace proposal, which we later accepted in principle, before launching the attack.

It has all the hallmarks of 'we need to sink something, legitimate or not, before we start negotiating the peace'. It was a strategic decision not a necessary one.

> Being outside the
> exclusion zone didn't affect that, it just meant they weren't certain
> to be attacked.

Again, Geneva Convention, Law of Armed Combat, etc.

If we deem it legal and thus acceptable to attack opponents when not on the battlefield that legitimises and legalises terrorist attacks in Britain in revenge for the wars we are engaged in abroad.

Of course, being grand master hypocrites it's okay when we do it, not when others do.

> Argentina had no problem attacking Atlantic Conveyor
> or the Sheffield or any of the others and those ships were only there
> because Argentina had made war on us.

Those ships were only sunk after we had sunk the Belgrano, they were on the battlefield, were actively engaged in the non-war at the time of sinking.

That's why Argentina had no reason to lie about what they had done but we had to lie about sinking the Belgrano.


> I sort of accepted that it was a 'bad thing' at the time because of
> the tone of the news etc and that it was outside the exclusion zone
> but I'm not sure what I'd have thought about it now. It would have
> been better if the whole conflict hadn't happened. It had no need to.

Especially since the Foreign Office had spent the previous decade trying to off-load the Falklands onto Argentina.

We had spent a decade telling Argentina "we don't want it, we want you to have it". It's not surprising they thought they could stage an invasion for domestic political gain, claim they'd taken it back, and we would do no more than criticise that being done.

> "Britain WAS right to sink the Belgrano: Newly released intelligence
> proves the Argentine ship had been ordered to attack our Task Force"
>
> Updated: 23:59, 30 December 2011
>
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2080490/Belgrano-Britain-WAS-right-sink-ship-attacked-Task-Force.html

I wouldn't trust the Daily Mail to be objective nor tell the truth. They frequently lie and make themselves a willing tool of propaganda. They famously supported Hitler after all.

Relying on the captain saying he accepted being attacked was a risk to define the legality of the sinking is like saying a woman who knows there is a risk of rape when they venture out makes raping her legal.

But again, it's not so much the sinking, the loss of lives; it's about the lies and the cover-up of those lies.

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor