https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61359228

<quotes>

Any peace deal with Russia would depend on Russian forces pulling back to their pre-invasion positions, Ukraine's president says.

"I was elected by the people of Ukraine as president of Ukraine, not as president of a mini Ukraine of some kind. This is a very important point"

Ukraine may not insist on retaking Crimea before making peace with Russia.

</quotes>

Putin may agree to withdraw if East Ukraine is guaranteed independence or autonomy but I can't see him giving up the east if it isn't.

And Putin will be reluctant to give up the occupied southern coast now he has taken that.

If Ukraine had granted her eastern peoples independence they could have avoided invasion to protect them but Ukrainian fascists refused to entertain that, chose to hold East Ukraine by killing and oppressing pro-Russian civilians and driving them out of the country.

Zelensky may not be a Nazi fascist himself but he has allowed fascist murder in the east, has fascist government ministers publicly cheering for the brutal execution of pro-Russia Ukrainians.

Zelensky being beholden to fascists and Nazi ideology is what provoked the invasion. One can't entirely blame him. If he had condemned Ukrainian fascism as he should have, those Nazis and fascists would have turned on him, overthrown democracy.

He's not so much "servant of the people" as "servant of the fascists". He will likely be delighted the Azov battalion has offed-itself in Mariupol.

On 07/05/2022 13:28, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61359228
>
> <quotes>
>
> Any peace deal with Russia would depend on Russian forces pulling back to their pre-invasion positions, Ukraine's president says.
>
> "I was elected by the people of Ukraine as president of Ukraine, not as president of a mini Ukraine of some kind. This is a very important point"
>
> Ukraine may not insist on retaking Crimea before making peace with Russia.
>
> </quotes>
>
> Putin may agree to withdraw if East Ukraine is guaranteed independence or autonomy but I can't see him giving up the east if it isn't.
>
> And Putin will be reluctant to give up the occupied southern coast now he has taken that.
>
> If Ukraine had granted her eastern peoples independence they could have avoided invasion to protect them but Ukrainian fascists refused to entertain that, chose to hold East Ukraine by killing and oppressing pro-Russian civilians and driving them out of the country.

You seem very sure of that HH. As far as I've seen so far Putin's deals
and assurances aren't worth squat. I think Ukraine's only safety is
going to be in giving up and being anexxed or fighting Russia to a some
kind of a defeat that they don't want to risk repeating. Maybe Russia
will reduce Ukraine to rubble in the process but that might just make it
all the more shocking for Russia that they wouldn't give in whatever
suffering Russia inflicted.

>
> Zelensky may not be a Nazi fascist himself but he has allowed fascist murder in the east, has fascist government ministers publicly cheering for the brutal execution of pro-Russia Ukrainians.
>
> Zelensky being beholden to fascists and Nazi ideology is what provoked the invasion. One can't entirely blame him. If he had condemned Ukrainian fascism as he should have, those Nazis and fascists would have turned on him, overthrown democracy.
>
> He's not so much "servant of the people" as "servant of the fascists". He will likely be delighted the Azov battalion has offed-itself in Mariupol.
>

I think the Russian angle is the important one for us. The world isn't
going to change very much if Ukraine has quasi-Neo Nazis in the army.
It is going to change if all Russia has to do to take a country is drive
their tanks in.

TWP wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 13:28, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61359228
>>
>> <quotes>
>>
>> Any peace deal with Russia would depend on Russian forces pulling back
>> to their pre-invasion positions, Ukraine's president says.
>>
>> "I was elected by the people of Ukraine as president of Ukraine, not
>> as president of a mini Ukraine of some kind. This is a very important
>> point"
>>
>> Ukraine may not insist on retaking Crimea before making peace with
>> Russia.
>>
>> </quotes>
>>
>> Putin may agree to withdraw if East Ukraine is guaranteed independence
>> or autonomy but I can't see him giving up the east if it isn't.
>>
>> And Putin will be reluctant to give up the occupied southern coast now
>> he has taken that.
>>
>> If Ukraine had granted her eastern peoples independence they could
>> have avoided invasion to protect them but Ukrainian fascists refused
>> to entertain that, chose to hold East Ukraine by killing and
>> oppressing pro-Russian civilians and driving them out of the country.
>
> You seem very sure of that HH.  As far as I've seen so far Putin's deals
> and assurances aren't worth squat.  I think Ukraine's only safety is
> going to be in giving up and being anexxed or fighting Russia to a some
> kind of a defeat that they don't want to risk repeating.  Maybe Russia
> will reduce Ukraine to rubble in the process but that might just make it
> all the more shocking for Russia that they wouldn't give in whatever
> suffering Russia inflicted.

At the end of the day its mighty easy for someone in a basement 1,500
miles away to opine that Ukraine should have given up chunks of its
country for peace in our time ,, But obviously, Ukrainians [and anyone
with a brain]would have realized that agreed partition would only be the
first temporary step to total subjugation. - And the only question then
would be who next is presented with a set of demands ?
Appeasement does not work with commie brutes and thankfully, Ukrainians
have found what does work, counter force.
>
>
>
>>
>> Zelensky may not be a Nazi fascist himself but he has allowed fascist
>> murder in the east, has fascist government ministers publicly cheering
>> for the brutal execution of pro-Russia Ukrainians.
>>
>> Zelensky being beholden to fascists and Nazi ideology is what provoked
>> the invasion. One can't entirely blame him. If he had condemned
>> Ukrainian fascism as he should have, those Nazis and fascists would
>> have turned on him, overthrown democracy.
>>
>> He's not so much "servant of the people" as "servant of the fascists".
>> He will likely be delighted the Azov battalion has offed-itself in
>> Mariupol.
>>
>
> I think the Russian angle is the important one for us.  The world isn't
> going to change very much if Ukraine has quasi-Neo Nazis in the army. It
> is going to change if all Russia has to do to take a country is drive
> their tanks in.

A little embarrassing I must admit to see an alleged Brit spouting tired
Putinist propaganda that even a majority of Putins own population know
it total bullshit.
Like blacks with "racist !" I guess all putin has to fall back on is the
Nazi card, early on he tied it to his ankle like a cannonball and has no
choice but to stick to it.

Mere projection, which Bolsheviks excel at - Plain as day who the actual
fascist aggressors are, those would be the ones methodically terrorizing
populations and destroying cities [and also fixated on squiggly,
esoteric symbols]

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

On Sat, 7 May 2022 18:29:51 +0100
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 07/05/2022 13:28, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61359228
> >
> > <quotes>
> >
> > Any peace deal with Russia would depend on Russian forces pulling
> > back to their pre-invasion positions, Ukraine's president says.
> >
> > "I was elected by the people of Ukraine as president of Ukraine,
> > not as president of a mini Ukraine of some kind. This is a very
> > important point"
> >
> > Ukraine may not insist on retaking Crimea before making peace with
> > Russia.
> >
> > </quotes>
> >
> > Putin may agree to withdraw if East Ukraine is guaranteed
> > independence or autonomy but I can't see him giving up the east if
> > it isn't.
> >
> > And Putin will be reluctant to give up the occupied southern coast
> > now he has taken that.
> >
> > If Ukraine had granted her eastern peoples independence they could
> > have avoided invasion to protect them but Ukrainian fascists
> > refused to entertain that, chose to hold East Ukraine by killing
> > and oppressing pro-Russian civilians and driving them out of the
> > country.
>
> You seem very sure of that HH. As far as I've seen so far Putin's
> deals and assurances aren't worth squat.

No less worthless than NATO's false promises.

> I think Ukraine's only
> safety is going to be in giving up and being anexxed or fighting
> Russia to a some kind of a defeat that they don't want to risk
> repeating. Maybe Russia will reduce Ukraine to rubble in the process
> but that might just make it all the more shocking for Russia that
> they wouldn't give in whatever suffering Russia inflicted.

Maybe. It's their choice.

> > Zelensky may not be a Nazi fascist himself but he has allowed
> > fascist murder in the east, has fascist government ministers
> > publicly cheering for the brutal execution of pro-Russia Ukrainians.
> >
> > Zelensky being beholden to fascists and Nazi ideology is what
> > provoked the invasion. One can't entirely blame him. If he had
> > condemned Ukrainian fascism as he should have, those Nazis and
> > fascists would have turned on him, overthrown democracy.
> >
> > He's not so much "servant of the people" as "servant of the
> > fascists". He will likely be delighted the Azov battalion has
> > offed-itself in Mariupol.
>
> I think the Russian angle is the important one for us. The world
> isn't going to change very much if Ukraine has quasi-Neo Nazis in the
> army.

It changed quite a lot when Obama's insurgency came to fruition, when they were taken out of Russia's hands and Ukrainian fascists gained power. The entire civil war between west and east Ukraine was instigated by Ukrainian fascists.
By rights there should be quite a shift now those fascists have lost a lot of their power. I guess it depends how fascistic Ukrainians actually are at heart.

> It is going to change if all Russia has to do to take a country
> is drive their tanks in.

Which is why Putin quite reasonably doesn't want NATO tanks on his borders.

On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:04:01 -0400
JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> At the end of the day its mighty easy for someone in a basement 1,500
> miles away to opine that Ukraine should have given up chunks of its
> country for peace in our time

Very easy as it's a fundamental principle I believe in, applies anywhere and everywhere.

As a Brit - though I consider myself "European" when asked - I think they should, just as I believe we should let the United Kingdom break up if Northern Ireland wishes to reunify, if Scotland chooses independence.

Borders, nations and counties are entirely arbitrary, always change and shift over time.

Let the people of East Ukraine hold a referendum to decide whether they want to be part of Ukraine or part of Russia. It's only fascists who would deny them the democratic right to self-determination.