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aus+uk / aus.legal / Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

SubjectAuthor
* OT: Michigan school shootingVRX380
+* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed
|`* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingPhil Allison
| `- Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed
+* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingSylvia Else
|+- Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed
|`* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingPhil Allison
| +* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingSylvia Else
| |+- Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed
| |`* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingPhil Allison
| | `* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingSylvia Else
| |  +- Re: OT: Michigan school shootingPhil Allison
| |  `* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingMax
| |   `* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed
| |    `* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingPeter Jason
| |     `- Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed
| `- Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed
`* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingMax
 +- Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed
 `* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingPhil Allison
  `* Re: OT: Michigan school shootingMax
   `- Re: OT: Michigan school shootingRod Speed

1
OT: Michigan school shooting

<soeso9$tls$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: vrx...@boxmail.net (VRX380)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 13:01:58 +0800
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 by: VRX380 - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 05:01 UTC

Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it
up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child. The pistol
holds 12 bullets, but can do 15 with extended magazine. Dunno how many
shots the little shit fired.
One good thing John Howard did was gun control.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 19:03:14 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 08:03 UTC

VRX380 <vrx380@boxmail.net> wrote

> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
> done a runner.

That didn’t last long.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59530279

> Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it up, when the boy
> appears to be an anti-social problem child. The pistol holds 12 bullets,
> but can do 15 with extended magazine. Dunno how many shots the little shit
> fired.

> One good thing John Howard did was gun control.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 08:44 UTC

Rod Speed wrote:
-------------------------------
> VRX380 <vrx...@boxmail.net> wrote
>
> > Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
> > done a runner.
>
> That didn’t last long.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59530279
>

** Jennifer is a " realtor " plus part time psychopath.

What Yanks like to call " white trash ".

She and hubby are safer in jail than elsewhere or on the run.

...... Phil

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 20:42:22 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 09:42 UTC

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> VRX380 <vrx...@boxmail.net> wrote

>>> Police charged the parents with involuntary
>>> manslaughter, but they have done a runner.

>> That didn’t last long.
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59530279

> Jennifer is a " realtor " plus part time psychopath.

Rather obvious when Elthan got the problem from.

> What Yanks like to call " white trash ".

> She and hubby are safer in jail than elsewhere or on the run.

Bit late for that now.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 22:32:49 +1100
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 by: Sylvia Else - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 11:32 UTC

On 04-Dec-21 4:01 pm, VRX380 wrote:
> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it
> up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child. The pistol
> holds 12 bullets, but can do 15 with extended magazine. Dunno how many
> shots the little shit fired.
> One good thing John Howard did was gun control.

Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.

Sylvia.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 02:38:10 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 15:38 UTC

Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
> VRX380 wrote

>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they
>> have done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't
>> lock it up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.
>> The pistol holds 12 bullets, but can do 15 with extended magazine.
>> Dunno how many shots the little shit fired.

>> One good thing John Howard did was gun control.
> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.

The US legal system has been broken for centurys now.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 20:28 UTC

Sylvia Else wrote:
=================
> > Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
> > done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it
> > up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.
>
> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.
>

** Why not?

A prima face case exists and a US jury would likely convict them in a heartbeat.

....... Phil

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:11:48 +1100
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 by: Sylvia Else - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 22:11 UTC

On 05-Dec-21 7:28 am, Phil Allison wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> =================
>>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
>>> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it
>>> up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.
>>
>> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.
>>
>
> ** Why not?
>
> A prima face case exists and a US jury would likely convict them in a heartbeat.
>
>
>
> ...... Phil
>

The issue will be whether there's a close enough link between their
actions and the shooting.

Sylvia.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:26:37 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 22:26 UTC

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
> Sylvia Else wrote

>>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they
>>> have done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't
>>> lock it up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.

>> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.

> Why not?

https://jonathanturley.org/2021/12/04/the-crumbleys-captured-in-detroit-but-will-the-involuntary-manslaughter-charges-succeed/

> A prima face case exists

You don’t know that.

> and a US jury would likely convict them in a heartbeat.

That remains to be seen.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:31:26 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 22:31 UTC

Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
> Phil Allison wrote
>> Sylvia Else wrote

>>>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
>>>> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock
>>>> it up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.

>>> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.

>> Why not?

>> A prima face case exists and a US jury would likely convict them in a
>> heartbeat.

> The issue will be whether there's a close enough link between their
> actions and the shooting.

Nope, its actually whether what they did is a crime under state law.
https://jonathanturley.org/2021/12/04/the-crumbleys-captured-in-detroit-but-will-the-involuntary-manslaughter-charges-succeed/

If all they did was not comply with state law as far as
Ethan using the handgun under parental supervision
when he shot people at the school, it is far from clear
that they committed any crime if Ethan chose to take
the handgun to school contrary to their parents wishes.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: max...@val.morgan (Max)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:39:01 +1100
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 by: Max - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 22:39 UTC

On 4/12/2021 4:01 pm, VRX380 wrote:
> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it
> up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child. The pistol
> holds 12 bullets, but can do 15 with extended magazine. Dunno how many
> shots the little shit fired.
> One good thing John Howard did was gun control.

Will the 15 year old be given a life sentence if found guilty and will
he be sent to an adult jail?

Does it make sense to give a 15 year old a life sentence for a crime
committed at that age?

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:50:58 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 22:50 UTC

Max <max@val.morgan> wrote
> VRX380 wrote

>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
>> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it
>> up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child. The pistol
>> holds 12 bullets, but can do 15 with extended magazine. Dunno how many
>> shots the little shit fired.
>> One good thing John Howard did was gun control.

> Will the 15 year old be given a life sentence if found guilty

Michigan doesn’t do sentencing that way.

> and will he be sent to an adult jail?

Unlikely.

> Does it make sense to give a 15 year old a life sentence for a crime
> committed at that age?

Depends on the crime. It does make sense to
give Venables, the murderer of James Bulger,
when Venables was aged 10 should have been
kept in jail until he died there.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

<ab03582e-c0ed-4860-b47f-0f07ebe7e219n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 00:38 UTC

Max wrote:
=============
> Will the 15 year old be given a life sentence if found guilty and will
> he be sent to an adult jail?
>

** He might be committed to a secure institution.

No time limit on that.

..... Phil

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

<97a2698c-2312-4771-8cc6-efb7c09acb96n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 00:47 UTC

Sylvia Else wrote:
=================
> >>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
> >>> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it
> >>> up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.
> >>
> >> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.
> >>
> >
> > ** Why not?
> >
> > A prima face case exists and a US jury would likely convict them in a heartbeat.
> >
> >
> The issue will be whether there's a close enough link between their
> actions and the shooting.
>

** That a is a matter of fact to be proven, rather than some " legal issue " .

It will be fun to hear the defense they try on.

BTW:

Following the Jesse Smollett trial ?
Bout a hoax lynching of a black TV star.

....... Phil

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

<j12ji7Fdk56U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 12:39:17 +1100
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 by: Sylvia Else - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 01:39 UTC

On 05-Dec-21 11:47 am, Phil Allison wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> =================
>>>>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they have
>>>>> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't lock it
>>>>> up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.
>>>>
>>>> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ** Why not?
>>>
>>> A prima face case exists and a US jury would likely convict them in a heartbeat.
>>>
>>>
>> The issue will be whether there's a close enough link between their
>> actions and the shooting.
>>
>
> ** That a is a matter of fact to be proven, rather than some " legal issue " .
>
> It will be fun to hear the defense they try on.
>
> BTW:
>
> Following the Jesse Smollett trial ?
> Bout a hoax lynching of a black TV star.
>
>
> ...... Phil
>

The primary issue is whether the criminal act committed by the parents
caused the deaths.

If I drink-drive and run someone over, killing them, then I can expect a
manslaughter charge.

If I drink-drive and hit an ambulance that was on its way to save
someone's life, and they die as a result, it's not so clear that I'm
guilty of manslaughter, even though one could argue that had I remained
sober, the ambulance would have arrived soon enough, and the person
wouldn't have died.

I think the subject case lies somewhere between those two scenarios.

Sylvia.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

<b3f2d6b4-9e11-41d4-8181-3624483bedbfn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 02:03 UTC

Stupider than Anyone Else wrote:
============================
>
> >> The issue will be whether there's a close enough link between their
> >> actions and the shooting.
> >>
> >
> > ** That a is a matter of fact to be proven, rather than some " legal issue " .
> > It will be fun to hear the defense they try on.
> >
>
> The primary issue is whether the criminal act committed by the parents
> caused the deaths.

** That would only be needed for murder.

> If I drink-drive and run someone over, killing them, then I can expect a
> manslaughter charge.

** Another wild red herring.
You have no legal point at all.

Same as with all your other insane shit.

....... Phil

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: max...@val.morgan (Max)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 13:35:11 +1100
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 by: Max - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 02:35 UTC

On 5/12/2021 12:39 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 05-Dec-21 11:47 am, Phil Allison wrote:
>>   Sylvia Else wrote:
>>   =================
>>>>>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't
>>>>>> lock it
>>>>>> up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.
>>>>>
>>>>> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ** Why not?
>>>>
>>>> A prima face case exists and a US jury would likely convict them in
>>>> a heartbeat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The issue will be whether there's a close enough link between their
>>> actions and the shooting.
>>>
>>
>> **  That a is a matter of fact to be proven, rather than some " legal
>> issue " .
>>
>>      It will be fun to hear the defense they try on.
>>
>> BTW:
>>
>>   Following the Jesse Smollett trial ?
>>   Bout a hoax lynching of a black TV star.
>>
>>
>> ......  Phil
>>
>
> The primary issue is whether the criminal act committed by the parents
> caused the deaths.
>
> If I drink-drive and run someone over, killing them, then I can expect a
> manslaughter charge.
>
> If I drink-drive and hit an ambulance that was on its way to save
> someone's life, and they die as a result, it's not so clear that I'm
> guilty of manslaughter, even though one could argue that had I remained
> sober, the ambulance would have arrived soon enough, and the person
> wouldn't have died.
>

In this example, the driver would be not be aware of a "substantial
risk" that the death would occur due them drink-driving.

> I think the subject case lies somewhere between those two scenarios.
>

Were the parents aware of a substantial risk that the murders would have
occurred when they allowed their son access to the gun?

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

<soh8qc$1uqq$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 13:40:09 +1100
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 by: Max - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 02:40 UTC

On 5/12/2021 11:38 am, Phil Allison wrote:
> Max wrote:
> =============
>> Will the 15 year old be given a life sentence if found guilty and will
>> he be sent to an adult jail?
>>
>
> ** He might be committed to a secure institution.
>
> No time limit on that.
>

The prosecutors are charging the accused as an adult.

This doesn't seem fair when in Japan, Portugal, Spain, Belgium &
Luxembourg, a 15 year old does not even have any criminal responsibility
at all.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

<j12plqFelqtU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 14:23:34 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 03:23 UTC

"Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message news:soh8h2$1sf5$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> On 5/12/2021 12:39 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 05-Dec-21 11:47 am, Phil Allison wrote:
>>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> =================
>>>>>>> Police charged the parents with involuntary manslaughter, but they
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> done a runner. Bought a handgun at Black Friday sale, and didn't
>>>>>>> lock it
>>>>>>> up, when the boy appears to be an anti-social problem child.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Be interesting to see whether the charges stand up legally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** Why not?
>>>>>
>>>>> A prima face case exists and a US jury would likely convict them in a
>>>>> heartbeat.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The issue will be whether there's a close enough link between their
>>>> actions and the shooting.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ** That a is a matter of fact to be proven, rather than some " legal
>>> issue " .
>>>
>>> It will be fun to hear the defense they try on.
>>>
>>> BTW:
>>>
>>> Following the Jesse Smollett trial ?
>>> Bout a hoax lynching of a black TV star.
>>>
>>>
>>> ...... Phil
>>>
>>
>> The primary issue is whether the criminal act committed by the parents
>> caused the deaths.
>>
>> If I drink-drive and run someone over, killing them, then I can expect a
>> manslaughter charge.
>>
>> If I drink-drive and hit an ambulance that was on its way to save
>> someone's life, and they die as a result, it's not so clear that I'm
>> guilty of manslaughter, even though one could argue that had I remained
>> sober, the ambulance would have arrived soon enough, and the person
>> wouldn't have died.
>>
>
> In this example, the driver would be not be aware of a "substantial risk"
> that the death would occur due them drink-driving.
>
>
>> I think the subject case lies somewhere between those two scenarios.
>>
>
> Were the parents aware of a substantial risk that the murders would have
> occurred when they allowed their son access to the gun?

It isn't at all clear that they did deliberately allow access to the gun.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

<j12pthFen1kU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 14:27:41 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 03:27 UTC

Max <max@val.morgan> wrote
> Phil Allison wrote
>> Max wrote

>>> Will the 15 year old be given a life sentence if found guilty and will
>>> he be sent to an adult jail?

>> He might be committed to a secure institution.

>> No time limit on that.

> The prosecutors are charging the accused as an adult.

And so they should.

> This doesn't seem fair when in Japan, Portugal, Spain, Belgium &
> Luxembourg, a 15 year old does not even have any criminal responsibility
> at all.

Japan, Portugal, Spain, Belgium & Luxembourg are just plain stupid.

Even the UK wasn't that stupid with the 10 year old murderers of James
Bulger.

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

<aocqqghhnd76vvuar5mr829mahldls8qem@4ax.com>

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From: pj...@jostle.com (Peter Jason)
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Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 08:47:09 +1100
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 by: Peter Jason - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 21:47 UTC

Christ! This is why there's too many lawyers. All this verbal
refluxing to no end.
It's like arguing over the divinity of Jesus!
>

Re: OT: Michigan school shooting

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
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Subject: Re: OT: Michigan school shooting
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:14:57 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 22:14 UTC

Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote

> Christ! This is why there's too many lawyers.
> All this verbal refluxing to no end.

Sure, but its not surprising given it's the lawyers that write the laws.

> It's like arguing over the divinity of Jesus!

There is lots of that with engineers too, specially with standards etc.

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