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aus+uk / uk.current-events.terrorism / Re: The myth of racist math

SubjectAuthor
* The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
`* Re: The myth of racist mathMohammed
 +* Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |+* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 ||`- Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |`* Re: The myth of racist mathMohammed
 | `* Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  +* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |`* Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  | `* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |  +- Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |  `* Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  |   `* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |    +* Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  |    |`* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |    | `* Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  |    |  `* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |    |   `* Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  |    |    `* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |    |     `* Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  |    |      `* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |    |       `- Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  |    `* Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy
 |  |     `- Re: The myth of racist mathLoose Cannon
 |  `- Re: The myth of racist mathMohammed
 `- Re: The myth of racist mathThe Happy Hippy

Pages:12
The myth of racist math

<20220513194652.00006e9c@ntlworld.invalid>

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: The myth of racist math
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 19:46:52 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Fri, 13 May 2022 18:46 UTC

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/racist-math-education/524199/

<quote>

Much of the discussion of race in math education has centered on the persistent underperformance of certain student groups, particularly black, Latino, and indigenous youth, and their disparate access to honors, gifted, and advanced mathematics courses.

Yet a new paper disrupts those narratives by examining an unaddressed element of the equation—namely, the ways in which "whiteness" in math education reproduces racial advantages for white students and disadvantages historically marginalized students of color.

</quote>

And there you have it - "whiteness" in math education

Which the racists, the rightwing and propagandists have spun as the 'woke' claiming "the science of math is racist" which they never did, and no one ever has, as no one ever could.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:47:10 +0100
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 by: Mohammed - Sat, 14 May 2022 10:47 UTC

On 13/05/2022 19:46, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/racist-math-education/524199/
>
> <quote>
>
> Much of the discussion of race in math education has centered on the persistent underperformance of certain student groups, particularly black, Latino, and indigenous youth, and their disparate access to honors, gifted, and advanced mathematics courses.
>
> Yet a new paper disrupts those narratives by examining an unaddressed element of the equation—namely, the ways in which "whiteness" in math education reproduces racial advantages for white students and disadvantages historically marginalized students of color.
>
> </quote>
>
> And there you have it - "whiteness" in math education
>
> Which the racists, the rightwing and propagandists have spun as the 'woke' claiming "the science of math is racist" which they never did, and no one ever has, as no one ever could.
>

In college, I recall everyone in the math class being baffled by some
equations, how and why some results were derived. The international
student (from the Indian Subcontinent) sat quietly, waited for the
lecturer to hush, called the lecturer over, presented his method. I
remember the lecturer being impressed, his method was far shorter and
simpler than what we were being taught. They had a quite little chat and
he didn't have to attend the class thereafter, just the exam at end of
term. Needless to say, we weren't taught the method that student used.

History is amazing once you look at it without prejudice. The western
civilisation is the latest empire, there's been empires before, IMO:
there has been a transfer of knowledge from the then existing empire to
the emerging, perhaps even throughout history from one empire to
another. In that transfer, there'll be a translation of knowledge, the
understanding of those tasked with or who've taken upon themselves. Some
elements in that transfer may fall through the cracks, the cracks being
the difference in culture, the difference in language and the difference
in the understanding of those that are transferring the knowledge.

Yes there's those that have successfully invaded zones of an empire, but
unless they have some knowledge, i.e. something that they can
contribute, a foundation, an identity which can be developed, that the
masses are willing to take-on. That invaders in the end get absorbed,
i.e. take on the identity of the empire they overtook. An example of
this is the Mongols in the ME.

The Arabs took on many elements of Greek knowledge and the other areas
they took, which they built upon and then developed the worlds leading
intellectual centres of their time. One couldn't recognise that of the
Arabs today, only in the timespan of about 200 years they've receded
from that out-looking approach to an insular one.

The early build-up of the modern Western civilisation has much Arab
contribution, which many in the west aren't willing to admit, nor
advertise - but the evidence is plentiful, that it can't be denied.

There's no real evidence that I know of, however there is some belief
that the Greeks took on knowledge from the Egyptians, then developed it
further.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 13:05:34 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:05 UTC

In article <t5o1be$l36$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:

> In college, I recall everyone in the math class being baffled by some
> equations, how and why some results were derived. The international
> student (from the Indian Subcontinent) sat quietly, waited for the
> lecturer to hush, called the lecturer over, presented his method. I
> remember the lecturer being impressed, his method was far shorter and
> simpler than what we were being taught. They had a quite little chat and
> he didn't have to attend the class thereafter, just the exam at end of
> term. Needless to say, we weren't taught the method that student used.

Shades of Ramanujan... what was the course about?

[...]

> The early build-up of the modern Western civilisation has much Arab
> contribution, which many in the west aren't willing to admit, nor
> advertise - but the evidence is plentiful, that it can't be denied.

I assume that's generally correct; but in math and physics it's
different. Basically, hardly anything of real value was done
(anywhere in the world) for a very long period, and then a huge
leap forward took place. Newton is the key figure of course, he
created science as we know it; and then a whole gang of super-
geniuses followed. There *were* very clever people before,
naturally, but Newton/Gauss/Euler/Lagrange/Cauchy/... created, say
during a span of 200 years, about a 1000 times more math and physics
than humanity had accumulated until then. It is a truly amazing human
achievement, which reached a peak of sorts in the early 20th century,
but continues strong to this day -- although the last really great
discoveries are about a 100 years old.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 14:26:34 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:26 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 11:47:10 +0100
Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:

> In college, I recall everyone in the math class being baffled by some
> equations, how and why some results were derived. The international
> student (from the Indian Subcontinent) sat quietly, waited for the
> lecturer to hush, called the lecturer over, presented his method. I
> remember the lecturer being impressed, his method was far shorter and
> simpler than what we were being taught. They had a quite little chat
> and he didn't have to attend the class thereafter, just the exam at
> end of term. Needless to say, we weren't taught the method that
> student used.

The way some maths is taught today can be very different to how I was taught many decades ago. It has caused quite a bit of outrage from parents who can't comprehend the way their kids are being taught, won't take the time to understand it.

It seemed bizarre to me until I looked into the "Why?" and it clicked that it was just teaching the subconscious tricks I use, had laid them out, codified them, explained them, rather than leaving everyone to figure them out for themselves.

What I have always hated is "what's the next number in this sequemce?" where there are multiple answers, but only 'the most obvious' is deemed correct, the others being considered wrong even when they aren't. Smart kids are punished for being smart, they have to dumb-down in order to not be labelled as stupid and failures.

And culture too. If a kid insists the year is 1443 when it's 2022 it doesn't deserve ridicule or worse.

When non-white kids are deemed more stupid than whites when actually brighter it is clear to see how that amounts to pro-white racism.

Raw racism in education was most clearly demonstrated to me by the mnemonic used to teach resistor colour codes - Black, Brown, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet, Green, White. Beyond that first "Black" there is "Rape" and "Bastards" and it's a demonisation which racists hold dear today.

I would posit that all of my generation who were taught that can't ever forget it, can't help but think it when needing to recall the colours. It was racism imprinted upon us.

Does that mean "physics is racist" ? Of course not. No one is saying "the science of physics is racist", just that some of the ways things are taught can be racist in promoting racist memes and the like.

The only people who oppose taking racism out of any subject field, would call wanting or doing that "insane", are the racists who want to perpetuate racism. Most notable in America - and in this group - is the lie that those wanting to take racism out of math teaching are claiming "the science of math is racist" when they really aren't, never have, never would. It would indeed be insane to claim that, but they haven't.

It's a classic srawman attack upomn the messenger to ensure their legitimate message is not heard.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 14:29:01 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:29 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 13:05:34 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> It is a truly amazing human achievement

By which you mean "white achievement".

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sat, 14 May 2022 21:22 UTC

In article <20220514142901.00007285@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

>> It is a truly amazing human achievement

> By which you mean "white achievement".

Sorry, but I can't help you here.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 11:14:39 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mohammed - Sun, 15 May 2022 10:14 UTC

On 14/05/2022 14:05, Loose Cannon wrote:
> In article <t5o1be$l36$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In college, I recall everyone in the math class being baffled by some
>> equations, how and why some results were derived. The international
>> student (from the Indian Subcontinent) sat quietly, waited for the
>> lecturer to hush, called the lecturer over, presented his method. I
>> remember the lecturer being impressed, his method was far shorter and
>> simpler than what we were being taught. They had a quite little chat and
>> he didn't have to attend the class thereafter, just the exam at end of
>> term. Needless to say, we weren't taught the method that student used.
>
> Shades of Ramanujan... what was the course about?
>

Just hard Math, but we also did Physics.

> [...]
>
>> The early build-up of the modern Western civilisation has much Arab
>> contribution, which many in the west aren't willing to admit, nor
>> advertise - but the evidence is plentiful, that it can't be denied.
>
> I assume that's generally correct; but in math and physics it's
> different. Basically, hardly anything of real value was done
> (anywhere in the world) for a very long period, and then a huge
> leap forward took place.

That is not entirely true. It depends what shade of glasses you look at
it from (and historians one consults). From my reading I see progression
from one to another, although I would agree in general there's been a
far greater distance covered in development through the western
civilisation. However, if we're to look at it cynically, it also a fact
that due to the methods used in development. Western civilisation has
caused the planet we all live on, to the brink of catastrophe for all
human life.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 11:10:12 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 15 May 2022 11:10 UTC

In article <t5qjqe$oti$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> That is not entirely true. It depends what shade of glasses you look at
> it from (and historians one consults). From my reading I see progression
> from one to another, although I would agree in general there's been a
> far greater distance covered in development through the western
> civilisation.

These guys just tore everything down and started from scratch. Even
the natural numbers were redefined.

Newton's definitions of the limit/derivative had to be completely
re-hauled, as they were not rigorous enough, causing huge problems.

Not to mention the old

1-1+1-1+1-1 ... = ?

(1-1)+(1-1)+(1-1)... = 0??

But then

1+(-1+1)+(-1+1) ... = 1??

These things appear trivial today, but they drove people insane,
until limits etc. were defined.

(the answer to the above, BTW, is that it cannot be defined in
any consistent manner)

Fascinating stuff!

> However, if we're to look at it cynically, it also a fact
> that due to the methods used in development. Western civilisation has
> caused the planet we all live on, to the brink of catastrophe for all
> human life.

Sadly, that is correct, although it appears to be a basic human problem,
common to all races/cultures.

I should one day finish this book...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_in_the_Machine

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 14:27:37 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:27 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 11:10:12 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> Newton's definitions of the limit/derivative had to be completely
> re-hauled, as they were not rigorous enough, causing huge problems.
>
> Not to mention the old
>
> 1-1+1-1+1-1 ... = ?
>
> (1-1)+(1-1)+(1-1)... = 0??
>
> But then
>
> 1+(-1+1)+(-1+1) ... = 1??
>
> These things appear trivial today, but they drove people insane,
> until limits etc. were defined.
>
> (the answer to the above, BTW, is that it cannot be defined in
> any consistent manner)

It can. In fact it's absolutely easy to define as you know.

But most will fail to notice such charlatan trickery by not spotting the number of '1' and '-1' differ in each. They are clearly not the same thing. It's impressive parlour deceit but nothing more.

I am not convinced that drove anyone insane but perhaps you could provide evidence it did.

And I cannot see where Newtonian limits and derivatives come into any of this.

I think it's bullshit. In fact all of it is bullshit. Which is the usual game for propagandists who like to con people by distorting things to present what they want them to see.

That always relies - as here, upon cheating then obfuscation and distraction, hoping the audience isn't smart enough to spot it or see through it, are incapable of proving a deception, incapable of disproving the deception. It's reliant on the old 'if you can't prove it is false you have to accept it is true' deceit.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: tose...@gmail.com (Mohammed)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 14:47:24 +0100
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 by: Mohammed - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:47 UTC

On 15/05/2022 12:10, Loose Cannon wrote:
> In article <t5qjqe$oti$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Mohammed <toseeb1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> That is not entirely true. It depends what shade of glasses you look at
>> it from (and historians one consults). From my reading I see progression
>> from one to another, although I would agree in general there's been a
>> far greater distance covered in development through the western
>> civilisation.
>
> These guys just tore everything down and started from scratch. Even
> the natural numbers were redefined.
>
> Newton's definitions of the limit/derivative had to be completely
> re-hauled, as they were not rigorous enough, causing huge problems.
>
> Not to mention the old
>
> 1-1+1-1+1-1 ... = ?
>
> (1-1)+(1-1)+(1-1)... = 0??
>
> But then
>
> 1+(-1+1)+(-1+1) ... = 1??
>
> These things appear trivial today, but they drove people insane,
> until limits etc. were defined.
>
> (the answer to the above, BTW, is that it cannot be defined in
> any consistent manner)
>
> Fascinating stuff!
>

Oh, I wasn't referring to anything specific. Yes, as I mentioned there
is development, not just a simple translation. What I mean by
development isn't simply adding another chapter, it also includes the
completely new.

An example: the word "camera" has Arabic origins, so does "algebra",
"algorithm", "arithmetic" etc, and we use Arabic numerals - imagine
western civilisation stuck with Roman numerals, most modern advances
wouldn't be possible.

The completely new is for example the digital camera, even though it
provides the same function the old camera did, it is essentially a new
technology; as is the method above as you mentioned.

IMO, should there be another empire after the USA, I have no doubt
they'll translate or derive names from English to their language.
Chinese is difficult language to learn, so, I guess people from our side
of world will continue to pronounce those words as we do today :)

If I were to give an historical example, I think China currently is on
the edge of a renaissance period like Europe was in about the early 14th
century. In that period of history there was plenty of knowledge
transfer (and thereafter), including plagiarism. The Chinese perhaps
still are plagiarising, I know they were relatively keen on that sort of
thing - there's plenty of American military tech' they've made near
enough direct copies of.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 13:59:06 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:59 UTC

In article <20220515142737.00002696@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

>> Newton's definitions of the limit/derivative had to be completely
>> re-hauled, as they were not rigorous enough, causing huge problems.
>>
>> Not to mention the old
>>
>> 1-1+1-1+1-1 ... = ?
>>
>> (1-1)+(1-1)+(1-1)... = 0??
>>
>> But then
>>
>> 1+(-1+1)+(-1+1) ... = 1??
>>
>> These things appear trivial today, but they drove people insane,
>> until limits etc. were defined.
>>
>> (the answer to the above, BTW, is that it cannot be defined in
>> any consistent manner)

> It can.

No, it cannot.

> In fact it's absolutely easy to define as you know.

No.

> But most will fail to notice such charlatan trickery by not spotting
> the number of '1' and '-1' differ in each.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Both appear an infinitely countable number of times.

Read this before you continue to embarrass yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandi%27s_series

"In modern mathematics, the sum of an infinite series is defined to be the limit
of the sequence of its partial sums, if it exists. The sequence of partial sums
of Grandi's series is 1, 0, 1, 0, ..., which clearly does not approach any number
(although it does have two accumulation points at 0 and 1). Therefore, Grandi's
series is divergent."

Next, learn what the concepts of "series", "limit", "convergent", "divergent"
etc. mean. I'm here to help.

> And I cannot see where Newtonian limits and derivatives come into any of this.

As great a genius as Newton was, he did not define the concept of
limit (for functions) rigorously enough. It was correctly defined
much later. Wiki it, and then read about how derivatives are defined
using limits.

> I think it's bullshit.

To quote, "who gives a fuck?"

You have no clue what math is. Who cares what you "think" about it?

> Which is the usual game for propagandists who like to con
> people by distorting things to present what they want them to see.
> That always relies - as here, upon cheating then obfuscation and
> distraction, hoping the audience isn't smart enough to spot it or
> see through it, are incapable of proving a deception, incapable of
> disproving the deception. It's reliant on the old 'if you can't prove
> it is false you have to accept it is true' deceit.

You were obviously greatly traumatized by your math studies. Sorry
bud, I can't help you with that; I will be happy, though, to answer
sensible and polite questions about mathematics.

The ball's in your court.

But then, you can just shout that math is "evil", having been invented
by White European men, and claim yourself a winner. Who gives a fuck?

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 15:40:21 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:40 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 13:59:06 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> In article <20220515142737.00002696@ntlworld.invalid>,
> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:
>
> >> Newton's definitions of the limit/derivative had to be completely
> >> re-hauled, as they were not rigorous enough, causing huge problems.
> >>
> >> Not to mention the old
> >>
> >> 1-1+1-1+1-1 ... = ?
> >>
> >> (1-1)+(1-1)+(1-1)... = 0??
> >>
> >> But then
> >>
> >> 1+(-1+1)+(-1+1) ... = 1??
> >>
> >> These things appear trivial today, but they drove people insane,
> >> until limits etc. were defined.
> >>
> >> (the answer to the above, BTW, is that it cannot be defined in
> >> any consistent manner)
>
> > It can.
>
> No, it cannot.
>
> > In fact it's absolutely easy to define as you know.
>
> No.
>
> > But most will fail to notice such charlatan trickery by not
> > spotting the number of '1' and '-1' differ in each.
>
> You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
>
> Both appear an infinitely countable number of times.

Except what you have shown doesn't, you have shown two different sequences. The third is lacking a '-1'.

Your third expression evaluates to the second with an extra one added at the start but you try to pretend that zero plus one resulting in one is somehow surprising, some sort of paradox.

What you actually have is -

0 + 0 + ((1-1) x infinity) = 0 + 0 + 0 = 0
0 + 1 + ((1-1) x infinity) = 0 + 1 + 0 = 1

I am not sure how or why you are confused by that. I can't imagine anyone else is.

Even a simple indigenous native playing Macala would be able to figure out that when there are an equal infinity of white and black stones, where a pair of each cancel each other out, the result will be zero.

And, if an extra white or black stone is added, it's no longer an equal infinity, and the result will reflect that, be non-zero, will be one in favour of the colour added.

But carry on - I suspect you are about to prove "math is racist".

Re: The myth of racist math

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Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 15:48:56 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:48 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 15:40:21 +0100
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> What you actually have is -
>
> 0 + 0 + ((1-1) x infinity) = 0 + 0 + 0 = 0
> 0 + 1 + ((1-1) x infinity) = 0 + 1 + 0 = 1

Reading that back I realised my 'x infinity' should have been 'infinite times'.

But it doesn't matter either way as both give a zero result.

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 15:15:42 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 15 May 2022 15:15 UTC

In article <20220515154021.00004c36@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> Except what you have shown doesn't, you have shown two different sequences.
> The third is lacking a '-1'.

These are infinite sequences. See more below.

Again, I suggest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandi%27s_series

> Even a simple indigenous native playing Macala would be able to figure out that
> when there are an equal infinity of white and black stones, where a pair of each
> cancel each other out, the result will be zero.

No, it's not like that when the quantities are infinite.

Here's a riddle: are there less even numbers than all numbers? That is,
is the set {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,...} larger in magnitude than {2,4,6,8,...}?

Hint 1: trick question.

Hint 2: the answer is NO, they are of the same magnitude.

The basic idea goes way back!

"The ideas were not new with Galileo, but his name has come to be associated
with them. In particular, Duns Scotus, around 1302, compared even numbers to
the whole of numbers.[1]"

A nice explanation is provided in

Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo%27s_paradox

"Galileo concluded that the ideas of less, equal, and greater apply to (what we
would now call) finite sets, but not to infinite sets. In the nineteenth century
Cantor found a framework in which this restriction is not necessary; it is
possible to define comparisons amongst infinite sets in a meaningful way (by which
definition the two sets, integers and squares, have 'the same size'), and that by
this definition some infinite sets are strictly larger than others."

> And, if an extra white or black stone is added, it's no longer an equal infinity,

Yes it is. You don't change an infinite magnitude by adding a finite
one to it. There's plenty of good online material about set theory
and the early work of the great Georg Cantor.

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 16:58:38 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 15:58 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 15:15:42 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> You don't change an infinite magnitude by adding a finite
> one to it.

So you are saying "N+1" is not equal to "N+1".

And yet you have argued that the rules of math are fixed, that one cannot change the rules, that it would be insanity to imagine one could.

I am inclined to stand with those who say mathematicians have created an imaginary universe where the rules they tell us apply don't apply when they need to solve some problem which has no relevance to anyone else but themselves.

I guess it's this insistence that people must agree with the mathematicians that it is how mathematicians say it is, and it's those who do and those who don't or won't which creates the "us and them" polarisation, which leads to math being seen as divisive, supremacist, even racist.

The people I know consider those calling themselves mathematicians so far up their own backsides that they are on a different plane of existence to the rest of us, permanently infuriated that we won't bow down to them like the gods they'd like us to think they are.

Pretty much the same for how they view other supremacism and racism when I exclude the supremacists and racists I know from that.

After all, if a mathematician won't agree that N plus one gives a result one more than N then why would anyone believe anything they say ?

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 16:34:18 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 15 May 2022 16:34 UTC

In article <20220515165838.00007ada@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

>> You don't change an infinite magnitude by adding a finite
>> one to it.

> So you are saying "N+1" is not equal to "N+1".

I'm saying "You don't change an infinite magnitude by adding a finite
one to it". Again, I suggest you read some nice intro to Cantor's
work. Plenty of that available. Replace "N" with "Aleph_0": and
yes, 1 + Aleph_0 = Aleph_0. The law you're talking about refers
only to finite numbers, just like the law "x times y equals y times
x" applies to real and complex numbers, but not to e.g. matrices.

You may Google

"If any number is added to infinity, the sum is also equal to infinity",
that will take you to an elementary explanation.

I've been patient and polite, I gave you nice references to read,
relating to the laws of addition when infinities are involved; yet
you persist with your nonsensical rants. It's a pity that you
choose to enter a silly fight, w/o trying to actually LEARN
something.

> And yet you have argued that the rules of math are fixed,

Of course they are.

Look, bud, no offense intended, but you simply don't have a clue.

You're like a 90-pound weakling with two broken arms stepping into
the ring with the 20 years old Mike Tyson.

> I am inclined to stand with those who say mathematicians have
> created an imaginary universe

Who cares?

> The people I know consider those calling themselves mathematicians
> so far up their own backsides

Who cares?

Math is the foundation on which all the natural science, as well
as computer science, rests. How an angry bunch of math flunkies
consider it does not really matter.

Do yourself a favor, and just drop it. Really, it's sad and pathetic
to watch.

If OTOH you'll make an effort to learn math, I'll answer your
questions, as time permits.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 17:48:09 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 16:48 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 16:58:38 +0100
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 May 2022 15:15:42 +0000 (UTC)
> Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:
>
> > You don't change an infinite magnitude by adding a finite
> > one to it.
>
> So you are saying "N+1" is not equal to "N+1".

And what about subtraction ?

If I have a container that holds an infinite number of items then every item I remove leaves me with another one plus an infinity of items.

If I remove an infinity of items the original infinity remains plus the new infinity I pulled out of the first, but somehow I don't have two infinities. Even though both are there I have just one infinity.

It seems to me that if one did create an infinity of something it would be impossible to remove it or even reduce it. One could keep adding things and create an infinity, and then pull those things out of infinity and you would have an infinity created from nothing.

Maybe that's the solution to inequality. No matter how many infinities one has one still has no more than anyone else. Those with infinity could create infinities for everyone else and we would all be equal with an infinity each, while all sharing one infinity.

It's as entertaining as flat earth theories, perpetual motion and energy from nothing.

Luckily infinity is a construct invented purely to solve problems which can only be solved by inventing a construct which enables some sort of solution to be found. Having no utility greater than that means those of us living in the real world don't have to worry about it.

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Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 18:00:49 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 17:00 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 16:34:18 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> I've been patient and polite, I gave you nice references to read,
> relating to the laws of addition when infinities are involved; yet
> you persist with your nonsensical rants.

You are the one saying that if I add one more to a pile it won't then have one more on that pile.

But it's me "with your nonsensical rants" ?

We can all bring forward our Shaman and insist they are right in what they say, can prove it by inventing constructs and rules which do indeed make it appear that way. All good propagandists are experts in producing made up shit which is self-consistent. Doesn't mean it's not made up shit though.

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Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 15 May 2022 17:09 UTC

In article <20220515174809.00005052@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> And what about subtraction ?

That's trickier.

infinite - finite = infinite: that's always correct.

infinite(1) - infinite(2): depends on what infinite(1) and
infinite(2) are.

To give a simple analogy:

positive + positive is always positive. General rule.

But positive - positive can be positive or negative. No
General rule.

It's unclear what you meant in the rest of your post. There's a
hierarchy of infinities, yes, but that's very complicated. I
suggest to start with the smallest one, infinite but countable,
like "all natural numbers" (called Aleph_0).

[flame given the snip]

Re: The myth of racist math

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Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 17:33:07 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 15 May 2022 17:33 UTC

In article <20220515180049.00001e17@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> You are the one saying that if I add one more to a pile it won't
> then have one more on that pile.

The size of an infinite pile does not change when you add one item to it.

I agree, it's confusing. Math is not easy.

Have you checked these sources?

<quote>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo%27s_paradox

You may Google

"If any number is added to infinity, the sum is also equal to infinity",
that will take you to an elementary explanation.

</quote>

[flame given the snip]

Do you STILL hate your math teacher? Get over it, man.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 19:45:36 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 18:45 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 17:33:07 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> Do you STILL hate your math teacher? Get over it, man.

I never hated my math teachers.

Do you really think such nonsense will get you anywhere ?

If this is the kind of shit American students of math have to put up with it's not surprising there are complaints about it, demands for change.

I lean towards finitism and the notion that "Infinity as a concept should not be given the same epistemic status as other mathematical ideas. The concept fundamentally cannot be defended in an empirical manner".

If you want to believe in something else that's fine by me.

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 19:31:28 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 15 May 2022 19:31 UTC

In article <20220515194536.00005bed@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> I lean towards finitism

Good. Stay in your comfort zone. I suggest sets of size <= 3.

[boring flames snipped]

[sigh]

[I tried]

[I really tried]

Re: The myth of racist math

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From: the.happ...@ntlworld.invalid (The Happy Hippy)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 21:11:24 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 20:11 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 19:31:28 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> In article <20220515194536.00005bed@ntlworld.invalid>,
> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
>
> > I lean towards finitism
>
> Good. Stay in your comfort zone. I suggest sets of size <= 3.
>
> [boring flames snipped]
>
> [sigh]
>
> [I tried]
>
> [I really tried]

Maybe you shouldn't. And not in the way you do. As you said "Who cares?".

Infinity is an abstract hypothetical concept. If I ever encounter an infinity or have a need of the concept I'll let you know.

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From: efbre...@gmx-x.comm (Loose Cannon)
Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
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 by: Loose Cannon - Sun, 15 May 2022 20:43 UTC

In article <20220515211124.00001b3b@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> Infinity is an abstract hypothetical concept.

Not so.

Without infinity, there is no calculus, and w/o calculus,
there is basically nothing, as far as modern science is
concerned.

But here's a simple way to realize that infinities are
all around us.

Ask yourself how many paths there are between any two
points in the plane.

One? Two? A trillion? Or more?

Then, look at one of the most fundamental concepts of physics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation

And search for "infinite", "infinity", "infinitesimal".

Also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSFRN-ymfgE

Re: The myth of racist math

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Newsgroups: uk.current-events.terrorism
Subject: Re: The myth of racist math
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 00:00:36 +0100
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 by: The Happy Hippy - Sun, 15 May 2022 23:00 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 20:43:23 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbreg73@gmx-x.comm> wrote:

> Ask yourself how many paths there are between any two
> points in the plane.
>
> One? Two? A trillion? Or more?

Whatever the answer it's utterly irrelevant except for engaging in intellectual masturbation.

I won't ask Pan-Am or TWA.

But I would ask what the constraints are. If there are none, and we are dealing with an imaginary plane and an imaginary object which can travel between two points with nothing which could prevent that travel then, that's there's more than zero, is enough to know. There will be some optimal route and the rest can be ignored.

If there are obstacles which prevent some paths being taken you will have to remind me what an infinite number less a finite or infinite number of obstacles would be.

Or is the answer simply "the same number of angels who can dance on a pin head" ?

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