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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Fitting new SSD - the day has come

SubjectAuthor
* Fitting new SSD - the day has comeScott
+- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeMike Clarke
+* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeMartin Brown
|`* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeAndy Burns
| `* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comenewshound
|  +- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeAndy Burns
|  `* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeTheo
|   `- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeJohn Walliker
+- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeJohn Rumm
+* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comePaul
|`- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeScott
+- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comePeterC
`* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comePeterC
 `* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeScott
  `* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeAndy Burns
   +* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeScott
   |+* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeJohn Walliker
   ||`- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeMartin Brown
   |`- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeSteve Walker
   +- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeJohn Walliker
   `* Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comeThe Natural Philosopher
    `- Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has comePaul

1
Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:55:55 +0100
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 by: Scott - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 08:55 UTC

Thanks for all the advice about the SSD. I am starting a new thread
as the old one is getting quite lengthy.

I now have my SSD (Samsung 870 Evo) and mounting bracket. I plan to
leave the OS and programs on the existing SSD (also Samsung) and use
the new one for data.

Would the following method be competent?

1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
of space)
2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables
3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
4. Copy entire contents back from external drive

I have no interest in retaing the existing hard drive as I prefer
external back-up.

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: ucebl...@milibyte.co.uk (Mike Clarke)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:17:57 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mike Clarke - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:17 UTC

On 20/04/2022 09:55, Scott wrote:
> Would the following method be competent?
>
> 1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
> of space)
> 2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables
> 3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
> 4. Copy entire contents back from external drive

If you have a SATA CD/DVD drive installed you can temporarily disconnect
that and use the cables as a temporary connection for the new SSD to
bypass the need for the intermediate copy to an external drive. When the
SSD has been formatted and populated you can use it to replace the hard
drive and reconnect the CD/DVD drive

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:54:21 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Martin Brown - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:54 UTC

On 20/04/2022 09:55, Scott wrote:
> Thanks for all the advice about the SSD. I am starting a new thread
> as the old one is getting quite lengthy.
>
> I now have my SSD (Samsung 870 Evo) and mounting bracket. I plan to
> leave the OS and programs on the existing SSD (also Samsung) and use
> the new one for data.

You might want to review the relative performance of new and old drives.

You will get optimum performance with the OS and its swap file on the
fastest drive and with it on the fastest SATA connection your PC has.
(that may need a new SATA-3 capable cable)
>
> Would the following method be competent?
>
> 1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
> of space)

Yes, but if you can verify the copy is a faithful reproduction.
Trust nothing unless you can verify it.

> 2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables

That may not be good enough if the old drive wasn't SATA-3. It will work
OK but it will be operating at a half or one quarter of its rated speed.
They are backwards compatible but no point in buying a very fast drive
and running it on a B road when motorways are available.

> 3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
> 4. Copy entire contents back from external drive

> I have no interest in retaing the existing hard drive as I prefer
> external back-up.

Personally I would always put the OS onto the fastest drive and only the
most frequently or awkward bulk data onto an SSD. My endgame tablebases
for chess are on a fast SSD since they require insane numbers of short
records to be accessed quickly and spinning rust can't hack it. The seek
time being near zero on SSD's makes them incredibly good for this task.

Bulk data that you hardly ever access is a waste on a super fast SSD.
YMMV

FWIW my spinning rust disk is still online inside my PC but only ever
gets accessed now for seldom used legacy data that is still on it and no
longer on the much faster (and smaller) SSD.

When you have finished you should run a speed benchmark to prove that
the thing is properly installed and operating at full speed. Just don't
do it too often - speed tests contribute to wear on the drive.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:03:14 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <t3ol8e$11q6$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:03 UTC

Martin Brown wrote:

> may need a new SATA-3 capable cable

Note that there's no such thing as specific SATA1/SATA2/SATA3 cables, they're
all just SATA cables, there are of course decent SATA cables and shitty SATA
cables ...

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: sradclif...@gmail.com (newshound)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:18:29 +0100
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 by: newshound - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:18 UTC

On 20/04/2022 11:03, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> may need a new SATA-3 capable cable
>
> Note that there's no such thing as specific SATA1/SATA2/SATA3 cables,
> they're all just SATA cables, there are of course decent SATA cables and
> shitty SATA cables ...
>
Any makes/suppliers preferred or to be avoided? IIRC it's been suggested
that fake "brands" occur on Amazon as well as eBay.

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:53:04 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:53 UTC

newshound wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Note that there's no such thing as specific SATA1/SATA2/SATA3 cables, they're
>> all just SATA cables, there are of course decent SATA cables and shitty SATA
>> cables ...
>>
> Any makes/suppliers preferred or to be avoided? IIRC it's been suggested that
> fake "brands" occur on Amazon as well as eBay.

I've normally got plenty of spares that came with motherboards, if I was buying
and wanted a "good" brand, I'd probably go with startech ...

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:04:33 +0100
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 by: John Rumm - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:04 UTC

On 20/04/2022 09:55, Scott wrote:
> Thanks for all the advice about the SSD. I am starting a new thread
> as the old one is getting quite lengthy.
>
> I now have my SSD (Samsung 870 Evo) and mounting bracket. I plan to
> leave the OS and programs on the existing SSD (also Samsung) and use
> the new one for data.
>
> Would the following method be competent?
>
> 1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
> of space)
> 2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables
> 3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
> 4. Copy entire contents back from external drive

Well that will work, but somewhat more complicated than it needs be. You
could

1. Install the Samsung cloning software I linked to in the other thread.
2. Clone exiting hard drive to SSD
3. Swap drives.

> I have no interest in retaing the existing hard drive as I prefer
> external back-up.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:51:26 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Paul - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:51 UTC

On 4/20/2022 4:55 AM, Scott wrote:
> Thanks for all the advice about the SSD. I am starting a new thread
> as the old one is getting quite lengthy.
>
> I now have my SSD (Samsung 870 Evo) and mounting bracket. I plan to
> leave the OS and programs on the existing SSD (also Samsung) and use
> the new one for data.
>
> Would the following method be competent?
>
> 1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
> of space)
> 2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables
> 3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
> 4. Copy entire contents back from external drive
>
> I have no interest in retaing the existing hard drive as I prefer
> external back-up.
>

Your procedure causes minimal disturbance to the dust inside the PC :-)

Approved.

*******

Seriously though, if a machine has only USB2 on the back, I
try to encourage people to buy an add-on USB3 card. As the
rates are a bit better that way, and people are more likely
to make backups to their USB3 enclosure, if the backups
don't take too long.

But you're not expecting miracles from this stuff.

My 500MB/sec SSD drive, does about 380MB/sec.

My 500MB/sec USB3 port on the back, does about 200MB/sec with the enclosure.
That's the median performance level. There are enclosure chips that go a bit
faster, but it takes additional research when buying an enclosure,
to get a good chip.

When I see 200MB/sec rates, well, at least it's pretty close
to the HDD rate. USB2 is limited to 30-35MB/sec by comparison.

The USB3 card, can't go faster than the PCI Express slot revision
it is plugged into. That's one reason the card may not live up
to its full potential. You might see 180MB/sec if the motherboard sucks.

I've also seen PCI Express Rev2 x1 lane slots, switch down to
Rev1.1 at boot time. Which is very annoying. And a second reboot
may result in the usage of Rev2. You only notice stuff like that,
if you do a lot of benchmarking.

If you're running WinXP, then you want a USB3 card with a
NEC chip on it. The NEC product is one of the few, with
a WinXP driver. The NEC company, was in the process of
changing the company name to Renesas, the day the USB3 chip came out.

Paul

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:52:38 +0100
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 by: Scott - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 15:52 UTC

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:51:26 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 4/20/2022 4:55 AM, Scott wrote:
>> Thanks for all the advice about the SSD. I am starting a new thread
>> as the old one is getting quite lengthy.
>>
>> I now have my SSD (Samsung 870 Evo) and mounting bracket. I plan to
>> leave the OS and programs on the existing SSD (also Samsung) and use
>> the new one for data.
>>
>> Would the following method be competent?
>>
>> 1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
>> of space)
>> 2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables
>> 3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
>> 4. Copy entire contents back from external drive
>>
>> I have no interest in retaing the existing hard drive as I prefer
>> external back-up.
>>
>Your procedure causes minimal disturbance to the dust inside the PC :-)
>
>Approved.

Thanks. My idea also was to minimise unplugging and plugging cables
in case I break something (as I have done already).
>
>*******
>Seriously though, if a machine has only USB2 on the back, I
>try to encourage people to buy an add-on USB3 card. As the
>rates are a bit better that way, and people are more likely
>to make backups to their USB3 enclosure, if the backups
>don't take too long.

I do have USB3 on the back and a compatible external drive that I use
for backups.
>
>But you're not expecting miracles from this stuff.
>
I'm not. It is primarily a like for like replacement and any improved
performance is a bonus.

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: giraffen...@homecall.co.uk (PeterC)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:10:22 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: PeterC - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:10 UTC

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:55:55 +0100, Scott wrote:

> Thanks for all the advice about the SSD. I am starting a new thread
> as the old one is getting quite lengthy.
>
> I now have my SSD (Samsung 870 Evo) and mounting bracket. I plan to
> leave the OS and programs on the existing SSD (also Samsung) and use
> the new one for data.
>
> Would the following method be competent?
>
> 1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
> of space)
> 2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables
> 3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
> 4. Copy entire contents back from external drive
>
> I have no interest in retaing the existing hard drive as I prefer
> external back-up.

When I fitted an SSD I backed up the HDD then cloned the HDD to the SSD
using Macrium Reflect.
Shut down, off at the mains, removed HDD and put in SSD (SATA-type, so in
the bay easily), booted, 35s later there was everything as it had been.
Made sure that there was no defrag on and checked it was OK with Samsung
Magician and away.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: 20 Apr 2022 19:26:46 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:26 UTC

newshound <sradcliffe544@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 11:03, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Martin Brown wrote:
> >
> >> may need a new SATA-3 capable cable
> >
> > Note that there's no such thing as specific SATA1/SATA2/SATA3 cables,
> > they're all just SATA cables, there are of course decent SATA cables and
> > shitty SATA cables ...
> >
> Any makes/suppliers preferred or to be avoided? IIRC it's been suggested
> that fake "brands" occur on Amazon as well as eBay.

I used SATA cables to connect FPGAs, where I got bit error stats. It was
completely pot luck as to what was good quality - there was no correlation
between price/brand and bit error rate. More of an issue was fit in the
sockets - even a slight bend can make a big difference. You don't notice
this in a PC because the error detection/retransmission on SATA is good
enough to compensate.

Although an honourable mention should go to the Maplin cable was had
sufficient crosstalk between the pairs that the receiver could detect a
signal even though the other end was dangling in the breeze. That type did
not get used in the final build.

Theo

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Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
From: jrwalli...@gmail.com (John Walliker)
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 by: John Walliker - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 20:12 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 19:26:53 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
> newshound <sradcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 20/04/2022 11:03, Andy Burns wrote:
> > > Martin Brown wrote:
> > >
> > >> may need a new SATA-3 capable cable
> > >
> > > Note that there's no such thing as specific SATA1/SATA2/SATA3 cables,
> > > they're all just SATA cables, there are of course decent SATA cables and
> > > shitty SATA cables ...
> > >
> > Any makes/suppliers preferred or to be avoided? IIRC it's been suggested
> > that fake "brands" occur on Amazon as well as eBay.
> I used SATA cables to connect FPGAs, where I got bit error stats. It was
> completely pot luck as to what was good quality - there was no correlation
> between price/brand and bit error rate. More of an issue was fit in the
> sockets - even a slight bend can make a big difference. You don't notice
> this in a PC because the error detection/retransmission on SATA is good
> enough to compensate.
>
> Although an honourable mention should go to the Maplin cable was had
> sufficient crosstalk between the pairs that the receiver could detect a
> signal even though the other end was dangling in the breeze. That type did
> not get used in the final build.
>
> Theo
I came across an incompatibility where there were occasional ( a few per Tbyte
of data transfer) SATA errors with a 1Tbyte Samsung 860 Pro in a Microserver Gen 7.
Using 850 Pros there were never any errors. The errors caused the SATA link
speed to halve, after which the errors would stop. The same drive was fine in
a variety of other machines. Updating the drive firmware didn't help.
John

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: giraffen...@homecall.co.uk (PeterC)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 10:35:38 +0100
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 by: PeterC - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 09:35 UTC

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:55:55 +0100, Scott wrote:

> Thanks for all the advice about the SSD. I am starting a new thread
> as the old one is getting quite lengthy.
>
> I now have my SSD (Samsung 870 Evo) and mounting bracket. I plan to
> leave the OS and programs on the existing SSD (also Samsung) and use
> the new one for data.
>
> Would the following method be competent?
>
> 1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
> of space)
> 2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables
> 3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
> 4. Copy entire contents back from external drive
>
> I have no interest in retaing the existing hard drive as I prefer
> external back-up.

When I fitted an SSD I backed up the HDD then cloned the HDD to the SSD
using Macrium Reflect.
Shut down, off at the mains, removed HDD and put in SSD (SATA-type, so in
the bay easily), booted, 35s later there was everything as it had been.
Made sure that there was no defrag on and checked it was OK with Samsung
Magician and away.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 12:51:05 +0100
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 by: Scott - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 11:51 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 10:35:38 +0100, PeterC
<giraffenos.pam@homecall.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:55:55 +0100, Scott wrote:
>
>> Thanks for all the advice about the SSD. I am starting a new thread
>> as the old one is getting quite lengthy.
>>
>> I now have my SSD (Samsung 870 Evo) and mounting bracket. I plan to
>> leave the OS and programs on the existing SSD (also Samsung) and use
>> the new one for data.
>>
>> Would the following method be competent?
>>
>> 1. Copy entire contents of D drive to external drive (there is plenty
>> of space)
>> 2. Remove existing mechanical drive and install SSD using same cables
>> 3. Format SSD using Windows 10 (as NTFS)
>> 4. Copy entire contents back from external drive
>>
>> I have no interest in retaing the existing hard drive as I prefer
>> external back-up.
>
>When I fitted an SSD I backed up the HDD then cloned the HDD to the SSD
>using Macrium Reflect.
>Shut down, off at the mains, removed HDD and put in SSD (SATA-type, so in
>the bay easily), booted, 35s later there was everything as it had been.
>Made sure that there was no defrag on and checked it was OK with Samsung
>Magician and away.

If you clone does this mean any defragmentation or errors are
perpetuated?

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:52:51 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:52 UTC

Scott wrote:

> If you clone does this mean any defragmentation or errors are
> perpetuated?

whatever level of fragmentation you have on the HDD would be cloned onto the
SSD, but it would no longer really matter.

Any recoverable errors would be fixed by being read, but any unrecoverable ones,
mean you're buggered for those particular files anyway.

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:06:42 +0100
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 by: Scott - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:06 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:52:51 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
>> If you clone does this mean any defragmentation or errors are
>> perpetuated?
>
>whatever level of fragmentation you have on the HDD would be cloned onto the
>SSD, but it would no longer really matter.
>
>Any recoverable errors would be fixed by being read, but any unrecoverable ones,
>mean you're buggered for those particular files anyway.

Thanks. Given it is data that is to be transferred, I think I would
rather use Windows to sort out any fragmentation and make me aware of
any corrupted files.

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
From: jrwalli...@gmail.com (John Walliker)
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 by: John Walliker - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:10 UTC

On Thursday, 21 April 2022 at 14:52:58 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
> > If you clone does this mean any defragmentation or errors are
> > perpetuated?
> whatever level of fragmentation you have on the HDD would be cloned onto the
> SSD, but it would no longer really matter.
>
> Any recoverable errors would be fixed by being read, but any unrecoverable ones,
> mean you're buggered for those particular files anyway.

If there are errors, then the GNU version of ddrescue
https://www.gnu.org/software/ddrescue/
can be very effective at getting as much data off the disc as possible in a
way that minimises the risk of completely trashing the drive with repeated
re-reading of bad blocks.

John

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
From: jrwalli...@gmail.com (John Walliker)
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 by: John Walliker - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:16 UTC

On Thursday, 21 April 2022 at 15:06:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:52:51 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
> >Scott wrote:
> >
> >> If you clone does this mean any defragmentation or errors are
> >> perpetuated?
> >
> >whatever level of fragmentation you have on the HDD would be cloned onto the
> >SSD, but it would no longer really matter.
> >
> >Any recoverable errors would be fixed by being read, but any unrecoverable ones,
> >mean you're buggered for those particular files anyway.
> Thanks. Given it is data that is to be transferred, I think I would
> rather use Windows to sort out any fragmentation and make me aware of
> any corrupted files.
Letting Windows anywhere near a damaged disc is the last thing you want to do.
It will try and fix problems without asking, often making them worse in the
process. I made that mistake enough times that I did finally learn.
John

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 16:44:02 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:44 UTC

On 21/04/2022 14:52, Andy Burns wrote:
> whatever level of fragmentation you have on the HDD would be cloned onto
> the SSD, but it would no longer really matter.
Totally correct. what your PC sees is no longer anything but a *model&
of a hard drive. The actual ram, blocks can be mapped to in anyway the
SSD pleases. And will change with time as the wear levelling kicks in.

--
“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.”
– H. L. Mencken

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: ste...@walker-family.me.uk (Steve Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 23:55:27 +0100
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 by: Steve Walker - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:55 UTC

On 21/04/2022 15:06, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:52:51 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> If you clone does this mean any defragmentation or errors are
>>> perpetuated?
>>
>> whatever level of fragmentation you have on the HDD would be cloned onto the
>> SSD, but it would no longer really matter.
>>
>> Any recoverable errors would be fixed by being read, but any unrecoverable ones,
>> mean you're buggered for those particular files anyway.
>
> Thanks. Given it is data that is to be transferred, I think I would
> rather use Windows to sort out any fragmentation and make me aware of
> any corrupted files.

You don't want Windows (or anything else) to defragment the data on an SSD.

The purpose of defragmenting is to bring different parts of the same
file together, so that the disk heads don't have to spend time moving
between cylinders and waiting for the next sector to come around. It
also means that gaps are not split all over the place and files don't
therefore end up fragmented when they are saved.

An SSD has effectively 0 seek time, therefore there is no point in
defragmenting, as jumping from one sector to another elsewhere does not
involve any head movement.

Defragmenting an SSD simply creates extra chances to introduce errors
and causes extra wear to the memory cells, decreasing lifetime.

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 09:01:44 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 08:01 UTC

On 21/04/2022 16:16, John Walliker wrote:
> On Thursday, 21 April 2022 at 15:06:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:52:51 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you clone does this mean any defragmentation or errors are
>>>> perpetuated?
>>>
>>> whatever level of fragmentation you have on the HDD would be cloned onto the
>>> SSD, but it would no longer really matter.
>>>
>>> Any recoverable errors would be fixed by being read, but any unrecoverable ones,
>>> mean you're buggered for those particular files anyway.
>> Thanks. Given it is data that is to be transferred, I think I would
>> rather use Windows to sort out any fragmentation and make me aware of
>> any corrupted files.

Not worth defragmenting the original disk at this stage. The files will
be turned into contiguous ones on the new driver during the copy phase.

Incidentally defragmentation of an SSD does nothing useful at all and
shortens its working life. Certain OS settings should be reconfigured
when an SSD is fitted. I think the utilities that come with them these
days will do it for you. Things that make sense on spinning rust make no
sense at all on solid state drives where seek time is near zero.

> Letting Windows anywhere near a damaged disc is the last thing you want to do.
> It will try and fix problems without asking, often making them worse in the
> process. I made that mistake enough times that I did finally learn.
> John

+1

Running windows to try and rescue a bad disk will almost invariably make
things worse. Especially if the damage is on the same drive as the
system swap file. It can do additional damage due to making simple
minded "repairs" that will turn the problem from mostly repairable with
a few minor losses using the right disk recovery tools to mostly wrecked
with a few lucky files that can still be recovered.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Fitting new SSD - the day has come
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 08:40:59 -0400
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 by: Paul - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 12:40 UTC

On 4/21/2022 11:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 21/04/2022 14:52, Andy Burns wrote:
>> whatever level of fragmentation you have on the HDD would be cloned onto the SSD, but it would no longer really matter.
> Totally correct. what your PC sees is no longer anything but a *model& of a hard drive. The actual ram, blocks can be mapped to in anyway the SSD pleases. And will change with time as the wear levelling kicks in.
>

Depends on the software.

If you use Macrium, and you "clone with resize",
the act of resizing changes how the clone happens,
and fragmentation (such as it is) is much reduced.

You might start with a 1TB HDD partially filled with
files and not full. Then transfer that to a 512GB SSD.
When you do the clone in that case, the partition is
resized to fit, and the transfer operation is closer
to being file-by-file.

[Picture] If the frame is blank, right-click and select "Reload"

https://i.postimg.cc/wBgch8Yc/Macrium-Clone.gif

As visuals go, it's hard to tell from the colours, what
is going on, but yellow is fragmentation, and in that prepared
example, the fragmentation is all directory fragmentation,
as the files themselves are too small to fragment. It took
1.5 hours to clone a "drive" with 6 million files. If
the transfer had not required a resize, it would not
take 1.5 hours to process. As it's a synthetic test
case and not a real drive. It took a lot more hours
to create the collection programmatically (file system
*hates* file creation).

That view is as seen at the outside of the SSD.

The Flash Translation Layer is a separate issue, and the
order of storage inside the SSD is not linear. That's
storage fragmentation we cannot view/visualize from the outside.

If you pull a flash chip from a modern SSD, and naively
read out the contents, the contents are virtually unrecognizable.
There is more than one reason for this (crypto!).

Paul

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