On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
>> I opened the
>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all the
>> cables.  One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted angle.
>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it.  Unfortunately, this turned
>> out to be the cable for the primary drive.  I took it to a computer
>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18.  Maybe I
>> should get him to install the SSD?
>
> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x markup on
> the SATA cable
>
>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>
> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>

Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
<Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:

>On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> I opened the
>>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all the
>>> cables.  One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted angle.
>>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it.  Unfortunately, this turned
>>> out to be the cable for the primary drive.  I took it to a computer
>>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18.  Maybe I
>>> should get him to install the SSD?
>>
>> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x markup on
>> the SATA cable
>>
>>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>>
>> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>>
>Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
>tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.

I wondered this too and just ordered a steel mounting bracket to be
safe. .

On 4/18/2022 1:29 PM, Scott wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> I opened the
>>>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all the
>>>> cables.  One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted angle.
>>>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it.  Unfortunately, this turned
>>>> out to be the cable for the primary drive.  I took it to a computer
>>>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18.  Maybe I
>>>> should get him to install the SSD?
>>>
>>> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x markup on
>>> the SATA cable
>>>
>>>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>>>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>>>
>>> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>>>
>> Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
>> tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.
>
> I wondered this too and just ordered a steel mounting bracket to be
> safe. .
>

You could run a bad block scan (as a way to get continuous-reads
going), and hold a hand to the thing to see if it is getting
warm at all.

http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe

This is a result for an SSD drive here (2.5"). The graph is a bit
more curious looking than I expected.

[Picture] If the frame is blank, right-click and select "Reload"

https://i.postimg.cc/7L8kM1zH/Samsung-860-Pro-Temperature.gif

What the graph tells me, is there is no thermal tape inside
the drive, between the controller IC and the metal lid. It cools
down a bit slowly, as if it is isolated from the case thermally.
Some 2.5" drives have used a bit of thermal tape, but you
can see with the 10C temp rise, that there's really no reason
for tape particularly.

Where the drives do feel it, is in laptops where the 2.5" bay
has zero air circulation. Some laptops a decade ago, it would
say right in the instructions to "use 5900 RPM drives instead
of 7200 RPM drives" and this was because there was not a
lot of thermal headroom. The lack of cooling was that serious.
On a desktop, there should be plenty of air. While there is
one desktop case, which had very poor circulation, most
are OK for this.

My drive was pretending to run at SATA III rates. The web page
might quote 500MB/sec, but it doesn't run that fast, only
about 380MB/sec or so. Your SATA cable is SATA II, and
because of the cable limit, your drive will use even less
power than mine.

Now, you see that graph -- I can't even feel that heat. I
can tell from the drive casing, that the case temperature
is "driven". It does not feel entirely like "cold metal", but
the casing itself is not 35C. It's a lot closer to ambient.

If the graph had shot up to 70C, then, there would be a concern.
There's so much headroom there, I could easily use this on
a summers day (when the room is 38C and the drive is 50C inside).
And for this test, the drive was not "clamped down".

Paul

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in message
news:t3lcvn$1pop$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> On 4/18/2022 1:29 PM, Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
>> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> snip <<
>>
>
> You could run a bad block scan (as a way to get continuous-reads
> going), and hold a hand to the thing to see if it is getting
> warm at all.
>
> http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe
>

That link is for a direct download.

HD Tune homepage
- http://www.hdtune.com/

There is a free version on the downloads page
- http://www.hdtune.com/download.html

--
Regards
wasbit

On 19/04/2022 05:14, Paul wrote:
> On 4/18/2022 1:29 PM, Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
>> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I opened the
>>>>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all the
>>>>> cables.  One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted angle.
>>>>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it.  Unfortunately, this turned
>>>>> out to be the cable for the primary drive.  I took it to a computer
>>>>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18.  Maybe I
>>>>> should get him to install the SSD?
>>>>
>>>> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x markup on
>>>> the SATA cable
>>>>
>>>>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>>>>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>>>>
>>>> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>>>>
>>> Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
>>> tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.
>>
>> I wondered this too and just ordered a steel mounting bracket to be
>> safe. .
>>
>
> You could run a bad block scan (as a way to get continuous-reads
> going), and hold a hand to the thing to see if it is getting
> warm at all.

You can run software that reads the drive's temperature, allowing you
accurate readings, while the covers are on.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:14:46 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 4/18/2022 1:29 PM, Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
>> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I opened the
>>>>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all the
>>>>> cables.  One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted angle.
>>>>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it.  Unfortunately, this turned
>>>>> out to be the cable for the primary drive.  I took it to a computer
>>>>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18.  Maybe I
>>>>> should get him to install the SSD?
>>>>
>>>> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x markup on
>>>> the SATA cable
>>>>
>>>>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>>>>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>>>>
>>>> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>>>>
>>> Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
>>> tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.
>>
>> I wondered this too and just ordered a steel mounting bracket to be
>> safe. .
>>
>You could run a bad block scan (as a way to get continuous-reads
>going), and hold a hand to the thing to see if it is getting
>warm at all.
>
Are there any dangerous voltages inside a PC or is every part safe to
touch live?

On 19/04/2022 05:14, Paul wrote:
> On 4/18/2022 1:29 PM, Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
>> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I opened the
>>>>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all the
>>>>> cables.  One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted angle.
>>>>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it.  Unfortunately, this turned
>>>>> out to be the cable for the primary drive.  I took it to a computer
>>>>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18.  Maybe I
>>>>> should get him to install the SSD?
>>>>
>>>> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x markup on
>>>> the SATA cable
>>>>
>>>>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>>>>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>>>>
>>>> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>>>>
>>> Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
>>> tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.
>>
>> I wondered this too and just ordered a steel mounting bracket to be
>> safe. .
>>
>
> You could run a bad block scan (as a way to get continuous-reads
> going), and hold a hand to the thing to see if it is getting
> warm at all.
>
>    http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe
>
> This is a result for an SSD drive here (2.5"). The graph is a bit
> more curious looking than I expected.
>
>    [Picture]  If the frame is blank, right-click and select "Reload"
>
>    https://i.postimg.cc/7L8kM1zH/Samsung-860-Pro-Temperature.gif
>
> What the graph tells me, is there is no thermal tape inside
> the drive, between the controller IC and the metal lid. It cools
> down a bit slowly, as if it is isolated from the case thermally.
> Some 2.5" drives have used a bit of thermal tape, but you
> can see with the 10C temp rise, that there's really no reason
> for tape particularly.
>
> Where the drives do feel it, is in laptops where the 2.5" bay
> has zero air circulation. Some laptops a decade ago, it would
> say right in the instructions to "use 5900 RPM drives instead
> of 7200 RPM drives" and this was because there was not a
> lot of thermal headroom. The lack of cooling was that serious.
> On a desktop, there should be plenty of air. While there is
> one desktop case, which had very poor circulation, most
> are OK for this.
>
> My drive was pretending to run at SATA III rates. The web page
> might quote 500MB/sec, but it doesn't run that fast, only
> about 380MB/sec or so. Your SATA cable is SATA II, and
> because of the cable limit, your drive will use even less
> power than mine.
>
> Now, you see that graph -- I can't even feel that heat. I
> can tell from the drive casing, that the case temperature
> is "driven". It does not feel entirely like "cold metal", but
> the casing itself is not 35C. It's a lot closer to ambient.
>
> If the graph had shot up to 70C, then, there would be a concern.
> There's so much headroom there, I could easily use this on
> a summers day (when the room is 38C and the drive is 50C inside).
> And for this test, the drive was not "clamped down".

I have not noticed the enclosure of a SATA drive getting that warm - the
limiting influence of the SATA interface probably goes a fair way to
prevent you really pushing the drive. NVMe drives however can run quite
HOT IME, and benefit from some heatsinking.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 19/04/2022 14:35, Scott wrote:
> Are there any dangerous voltages inside a PC or is every part safe to
> touch live?

Unless you've opened up the cover of the PSU there's no danger to you
apart from putting your fingers in the fan blades.

But there is a risk of harming the PC if you dislodge connections or
short anything out while running - avoid wearing a metal watch strap.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:35:31 +1000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:14:46 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/18/2022 1:29 PM, Scott wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
>>> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I opened the
>>>>>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> cables. One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted
>>>>>> angle.
>>>>>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it. Unfortunately, this turned
>>>>>> out to be the cable for the primary drive. I took it to a computer
>>>>>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18. Maybe I
>>>>>> should get him to install the SSD?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x markup
>>>>> on
>>>>> the SATA cable
>>>>>
>>>>>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>>>>>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>>>>>
>>>> Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
>>>> tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.
>>>
>>> I wondered this too and just ordered a steel mounting bracket to be
>>> safe. .
>>>
>> You could run a bad block scan (as a way to get continuous-reads
>> going), and hold a hand to the thing to see if it is getting
>> warm at all.
>>
> Are there any dangerous voltages inside a PC

Only inside the power supply and its got a metal box around it.

> or is every part safe to
> touch live?

Yep.

On 19/04/2022 14:35, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:14:46 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/18/2022 1:29 PM, Scott wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
>>> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I opened the
>>>>>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all the
>>>>>> cables.  One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted angle.
>>>>>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it.  Unfortunately, this turned
>>>>>> out to be the cable for the primary drive.  I took it to a computer
>>>>>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18.  Maybe I
>>>>>> should get him to install the SSD?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x markup on
>>>>> the SATA cable
>>>>>
>>>>>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>>>>>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>>>>>
>>>> Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
>>>> tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.
>>>
>>> I wondered this too and just ordered a steel mounting bracket to be
>>> safe. .
>>>
>> You could run a bad block scan (as a way to get continuous-reads
>> going), and hold a hand to the thing to see if it is getting
>> warm at all.
>>
> Are there any dangerous voltages inside a PC or is every part safe to
> touch live?

If you keep your fingers out of the insides of the main PSU, then the
highest voltage you are likely to find is 12V

(there is an exception on older laptops with CCL backlit displays - they
may have an inverter producing > 600V to power the backlight tubes)

Sticking you finger into a rotating fan can hurt as well :-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 19/04/2022 14:38, John Rumm wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 05:14, Paul wrote:
>> On 4/18/2022 1:29 PM, Scott wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:07:24 +0100, Andrew
>>> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14/04/2022 16:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I opened the
>>>>>> machine and worked out how to remove the cradle and looked at all the
>>>>>> cables.  One of the cables seemed to be loose and at a twisted angle.
>>>>>> When I tried to adjust this, I broke it.  Unfortunately, this turned
>>>>>> out to be the cable for the primary drive.  I took it to a computer
>>>>>> shop nearby and he helpfully fixed the problem for £18.  Maybe I
>>>>>> should get him to install the SSD?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be scared how much he'd charge you, that's at least a 20x
>>>>> markup on
>>>>> the SATA cable
>>>>>
>>>>>> As I now understand it, I only need a cradle or similar to hold the
>>>>>> new SSD and the existing cables will fit.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Theo said, a double-sided sticky pad is usually good enough.
>>>>>
>>>> Might this make the drive run hotter though ?, unless it is
>>>> tape intended for providing a thermal path ?.
>>>
>>> I wondered this too and just ordered a steel mounting bracket to be
>>> safe. .
>>>
>>
>> You could run a bad block scan (as a way to get continuous-reads
>> going), and hold a hand to the thing to see if it is getting
>> warm at all.
>>
>>     http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe
>>
>> This is a result for an SSD drive here (2.5"). The graph is a bit
>> more curious looking than I expected.
>>
>>     [Picture]  If the frame is blank, right-click and select "Reload"
>>
>>     https://i.postimg.cc/7L8kM1zH/Samsung-860-Pro-Temperature.gif
>>
>> What the graph tells me, is there is no thermal tape inside
>> the drive, between the controller IC and the metal lid. It cools
>> down a bit slowly, as if it is isolated from the case thermally.
>> Some 2.5" drives have used a bit of thermal tape, but you
>> can see with the 10C temp rise, that there's really no reason
>> for tape particularly.
>>
>> Where the drives do feel it, is in laptops where the 2.5" bay
>> has zero air circulation. Some laptops a decade ago, it would
>> say right in the instructions to "use 5900 RPM drives instead
>> of 7200 RPM drives" and this was because there was not a
>> lot of thermal headroom. The lack of cooling was that serious.
>> On a desktop, there should be plenty of air. While there is
>> one desktop case, which had very poor circulation, most
>> are OK for this.
>>
>> My drive was pretending to run at SATA III rates. The web page
>> might quote 500MB/sec, but it doesn't run that fast, only
>> about 380MB/sec or so. Your SATA cable is SATA II, and
>> because of the cable limit, your drive will use even less
>> power than mine.
>>
>> Now, you see that graph -- I can't even feel that heat. I
>> can tell from the drive casing, that the case temperature
>> is "driven". It does not feel entirely like "cold metal", but
>> the casing itself is not 35C. It's a lot closer to ambient.
>>
>> If the graph had shot up to 70C, then, there would be a concern.
>> There's so much headroom there, I could easily use this on
>> a summers day (when the room is 38C and the drive is 50C inside).
>> And for this test, the drive was not "clamped down".
>
> I have not noticed the enclosure of a SATA drive getting that warm - the
> limiting influence of the SATA interface probably goes a fair way to
> prevent you really pushing the drive. NVMe drives however can run quite
> HOT IME, and benefit from some heatsinking.

Yes. My eldest son has fairly high performance laptop that we got him
for university. He found that both NVMe drives (one in particular) got
hot. Adding a good thermal transfer compound and milled down heatsinks
dropped the temperatures dramatically (from mid 70s to low 40s).

Steve Walker <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Yes. My eldest son has fairly high performance laptop that we got him
> for university. He found that both NVMe drives (one in particular) got
> hot. Adding a good thermal transfer compound and milled down heatsinks
> dropped the temperatures dramatically (from mid 70s to low 40s).

NVMe drives are fairly compact, so there's nowhere for the heat to go unless
you heatsink them. SATA drives are mostly fresh air, with a small PCB next
to the connector, and a nice metal chassis to heatsink it against. Result
is they don't tend to get warm, especially in desktop applications.

Theo

On 4/20/2022 11:03 AM, Theo wrote:
> Steve Walker <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> Yes. My eldest son has fairly high performance laptop that we got him
>> for university. He found that both NVMe drives (one in particular) got
>> hot. Adding a good thermal transfer compound and milled down heatsinks
>> dropped the temperatures dramatically (from mid 70s to low 40s).
>
> NVMe drives are fairly compact, so there's nowhere for the heat to go unless
> you heatsink them. SATA drives are mostly fresh air, with a small PCB next
> to the connector, and a nice metal chassis to heatsink it against. Result
> is they don't tend to get warm, especially in desktop applications.
>
> Theo
>

This NVMe cooler is for the future. It's a bit too much cooling
for the current commodity designs.

https://www.hwcooling.net/en/two-heatsinks-a-heatpipe-and-a-fan-the-new-elecgear-ssd-cooler/

It used to be, a copper strip and some thermal tape was
enough for cooling. But the drives keep on getting faster.

Paul