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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Plumbing Job

SubjectAuthor
* Plumbing JobJeff Gaines
+* Re: Plumbing Jobalan_m
|`* Re: Plumbing JobJeff Gaines
| `- Re: Plumbing JobAndrew
+* Re: Plumbing JobFredxx
|`* Re: Plumbing JobJohn Rumm
| `- Re: Plumbing JobFredxx
`* Re: Plumbing JobRoger Mills
 `* Re: Plumbing JobJeff Gaines
  `* Re: Plumbing Jobalan_m
   `* Re: Plumbing JobJeff Gaines
    +* Re: Plumbing Jobalan_m
    |`* Re: Plumbing JobJeff Gaines
    | `- Re: Plumbing JobBev
    +* Re: Plumbing JobRoger Mills
    |+* Re: Plumbing JobJeff Gaines
    ||+- Re: Plumbing Jobalan_m
    ||`* Re: Plumbing JobVir Campestris
    || `* Re: Plumbing Jobalan_m
    ||  `- Re: Plumbing JobVir Campestris
    |`- Re: Plumbing JobJeff Gaines
    `- Re: Plumbing JobJohn Rumm

1
Plumbing Job

<xn0nh1qcxnra29000@news.individual.net>

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From: jgaines_...@yahoo.co.uk (Jeff Gaines)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Plumbing Job
Date: 25 Apr 2022 20:05:36 GMT
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 by: Jeff Gaines - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 20:05 UTC

I have an unbalanced heating system in this 2 bed bungalow. I have a quote
to help me sort it which consist of putting a new 2 metre (appx) radiator
in the lounge with thermostatic valves, replacing the lockshield on the 9
other rads with thermostatic valves and replacing the copper cylinder with
an insulated one.

I have been told it's 3-4 days and been quoted £1,375 plus VAT (£1,650).

I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does that
seem a reasonable price do you think?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
All things being equal, fat people use more soap

Re: Plumbing Job

<jcofm2Fe4rtU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:46:59 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 20:46 UTC

On 25/04/2022 21:05, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> I have an unbalanced heating system in this 2 bed bungalow. I have a
> quote to help me sort it which consist of putting a new 2 metre (appx)
> radiator in the lounge with thermostatic valves, replacing the
> lockshield on the 9 other rads with thermostatic valves and replacing
> the copper cylinder with an insulated one.
>
> I have been told it's 3-4 days and been quoted £1,375 plus VAT (£1,650).
>
> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does that
> seem a reasonable price do you think?
>

10 off TVRs+lockshield = £120 to £250 depending on brand.
1 off radiator = £150 (depends on heat output/type)
1 off tank = £200
Replacement pipe work = ?

Say, £550 for materials + markup. (including VAT)
That leaves around £1000 for maybe 25 hours of labour (£40/hour incl
vat)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: jgaines_...@yahoo.co.uk (Jeff Gaines)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: 26 Apr 2022 11:12:25 GMT
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 by: Jeff Gaines - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 11:12 UTC

On 25/04/2022 in message <jcofm2Fe4rtU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m wrote:

>On 25/04/2022 21:05, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>>I have an unbalanced heating system in this 2 bed bungalow. I have a
>>quote to help me sort it which consist of putting a new 2 metre (appx)
>>radiator in the lounge with thermostatic valves, replacing the lockshield
>>on the 9 other rads with thermostatic valves and replacing the copper
>>cylinder with an insulated one.
>>
>>I have been told it's 3-4 days and been quoted £1,375 plus VAT (£1,650).
>>
>>I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does that
>>seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>
>
>
>10 off TVRs+lockshield = £120 to £250 depending on brand.
>1 off radiator = £150 (depends on heat output/type)
>1 off tank = £200
>Replacement pipe work = ?
>
>Say, £550 for materials + markup. (including VAT)
>That leaves around £1000 for maybe 25 hours of labour (£40/hour incl vat)

Many thanks alan_m :-)

Looks like it's about right then.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Though no-one can go back and make a new start, everyone can start from
now and make a new ending.

Re: Plumbing Job

<t48lgi$ebr$1@dont-email.me>

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From: fre...@spam.uk (Fredxx)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:36:51 +0100
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 by: Fredxx - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 11:36 UTC

On 25/04/2022 21:05, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> I have an unbalanced heating system in this 2 bed bungalow. I have a
> quote to help me sort it which consist of putting a new 2 metre (appx)
> radiator in the lounge with thermostatic valves, replacing the
> lockshield on the 9 other rads with thermostatic valves and replacing
> the copper cylinder with an insulated one.
>
> I have been told it's 3-4 days and been quoted £1,375 plus VAT (£1,650).
>
> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does that
> seem a reasonable price do you think?

I have found a cheap IR thermometer good for setting the lockshields by
checking return temperatures and adjusting accordingly.

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 20:11:12 +0100
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 by: John Rumm - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 19:11 UTC

On 26/04/2022 12:36, Fredxx wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 21:05, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> I have an unbalanced heating system in this 2 bed bungalow. I have a
>> quote to help me sort it which consist of putting a new 2 metre (appx)
>> radiator in the lounge with thermostatic valves, replacing the
>> lockshield on the 9 other rads with thermostatic valves and replacing
>> the copper cylinder with an insulated one.
>>
>> I have been told it's 3-4 days and been quoted £1,375 plus VAT (£1,650).
>>
>> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does
>> that seem a reasonable price do you think?
>
> I have found a cheap IR thermometer good for setting the lockshields by
> checking return temperatures and adjusting accordingly.

IME you need to take a reading from the painted surface of the rad near
the tail, or stick some tape on the pipe itself and read from that. (an
unpainted metal pipe itself will have the wrong emissivity and confuse
the thermometer)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: fre...@spam.uk (Fredxx)
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Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 21:59:41 +0100
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 by: Fredxx - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 20:59 UTC

On 26/04/2022 20:11, John Rumm wrote:
> On 26/04/2022 12:36, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 25/04/2022 21:05, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an unbalanced heating system in this 2 bed bungalow. I have a
>>> quote to help me sort it which consist of putting a new 2 metre
>>> (appx) radiator in the lounge with thermostatic valves, replacing the
>>> lockshield on the 9 other rads with thermostatic valves and replacing
>>> the copper cylinder with an insulated one.
>>>
>>> I have been told it's 3-4 days and been quoted £1,375 plus VAT (£1,650).
>>>
>>> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does
>>> that seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>
>> I have found a cheap IR thermometer good for setting the lockshields
>> by checking return temperatures and adjusting accordingly.
>
> IME you need to take a reading from the painted surface of the rad near
> the tail, or stick some tape on the pipe itself and read from that. (an
> unpainted metal pipe itself will have the wrong emissivity and confuse
> the thermometer)

I've found the bottom of a painted radiator to be pretty good at
indicating temperature. But yes, some knowledge of IR emissivity helps.

YMMV

Re: Plumbing Job

<jctu3cFfj7vU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: mills37....@gmail.com (Roger Mills)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 23:23:39 +0100
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 by: Roger Mills - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 22:23 UTC

On 25/04/2022 21:05, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> I have an unbalanced heating system in this 2 bed bungalow. I have a
> quote to help me sort it which consist of putting a new 2 metre (appx)
> radiator in the lounge with thermostatic valves, replacing the
> lockshield on the 9 other rads with thermostatic valves and replacing
> the copper cylinder with an insulated one.
>
> I have been told it's 3-4 days and been quoted £1,375 plus VAT (£1,650).
>
> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does that
> seem a reasonable price do you think?
>

Doesn't sound unreasonable. Does the price include balancing? Installing
TRVs doesn't remove the need for balancing if you want the house to warm
up more or less evenly.

Are you sufficiently uncreaky to do that part yourself?

--
Cheers,
Roger

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: jgaines_...@yahoo.co.uk (Jeff Gaines)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: 28 Apr 2022 07:49:20 GMT
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 by: Jeff Gaines - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:49 UTC

On 27/04/2022 in message <jctu3cFfj7vU1@mid.individual.net> Roger Mills
wrote:

>>I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does that
>>seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>
>
>Doesn't sound unreasonable. Does the price include balancing? Installing
>TRVs doesn't remove the need for balancing if you want the house to warm
>up more or less evenly.
>
>Are you sufficiently uncreaky to do that part yourself?

Thanks Roger :-)

I can set the TRVs and then use my couple of max-min thermometers to get
temperatures about right. Not very scientific bit it'll do the job!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
All things being equal, fat people use more soap

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:10:28 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:10 UTC

On 28/04/2022 08:49, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 in message <jctu3cFfj7vU1@mid.individual.net> Roger Mills
> wrote:
>
>>> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does
>>> that seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>>
>>
>> Doesn't sound unreasonable. Does the price include balancing?
>> Installing TRVs doesn't remove the need for balancing if you want the
>> house to warm up more or less evenly.
>>
>> Are you sufficiently uncreaky to do that part yourself?
>
> Thanks Roger :-)
>
> I can set the TRVs and then use my couple of max-min thermometers to get
> temperatures about right. Not very scientific bit it'll do the job!
>

The balancing is performed with all the TRV fully open and the water
flow through the radiators adjusted with the lock shield valves. Water
always takes the easiest path and if you don't throttle the flow, say,
to a radiator nearest to the pump a distant radiator may not get any
flow of hot water. A TVR on its own doesn't cure this. Once the system
is balanced you can use the TRVs to shut off the radiators once the TVR
has detected the set temperature

An explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbxccVDpc
Other youtube videos my give a better explanation.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: jgaines_...@yahoo.co.uk (Jeff Gaines)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: 28 Apr 2022 10:04:36 GMT
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 by: Jeff Gaines - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 10:04 UTC

On 28/04/2022 in message <jcv0fkFllcbU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m wrote:

>On 28/04/2022 08:49, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>On 27/04/2022 in message <jctu3cFfj7vU1@mid.individual.net> Roger Mills
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does that
>>>>seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Doesn't sound unreasonable. Does the price include balancing? Installing
>>>TRVs doesn't remove the need for balancing if you want the house to warm
>>>up more or less evenly.
>>>
>>>Are you sufficiently uncreaky to do that part yourself?
>>
>>Thanks Roger :-)
>>
>>I can set the TRVs and then use my couple of max-min thermometers to get
>>temperatures about right. Not very scientific bit it'll do the job!
>>
>
>The balancing is performed with all the TRV fully open and the water flow
>through the radiators adjusted with the lock shield valves. Water always
>takes the easiest path and if you don't throttle the flow, say, to a
>radiator nearest to the pump a distant radiator may not get any flow of
>hot water. A TVR on its own doesn't cure this. Once the system is balanced
>you can use the TRVs to shut off the radiators once the TVR has detected
>the set temperature
>
>An explanation.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbxccVDpc
>Other youtube videos my give a better explanation.

I was planning to let the TRVs do that for me, what is the point of
crawling round playing with the lockshields AND fitting TRVs?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it

Re: Plumbing Job

<jcvaolFnjssU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:05:57 +0100
Organization: At Home
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 by: alan_m - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:05 UTC

On 28/04/2022 11:04, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 in message <jcv0fkFllcbU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m wrote:
>
>> On 28/04/2022 08:49, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 in message <jctu3cFfj7vU1@mid.individual.net> Roger
>>> Mills wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more,
>>>>> does  that seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't sound unreasonable. Does the price include balancing?
>>>> Installing TRVs doesn't remove the need for balancing if you want
>>>> the  house to warm up more or less evenly.
>>>>
>>>> Are you sufficiently uncreaky to do that part yourself?
>>>
>>> Thanks Roger :-)
>>>
>>> I can set the TRVs and then use my couple of max-min thermometers to
>>> get temperatures about right. Not very scientific bit it'll do the job!
>>>
>>
>> The balancing is performed with all the TRV fully open and the water
>> flow through the radiators adjusted with the lock shield valves.
>> Water always takes the easiest path and if you don't throttle the
>> flow, say, to a radiator nearest to the pump a distant radiator may
>> not get any flow of hot water. A TVR on its own doesn't cure this.
>> Once the system is balanced you can use the TRVs to shut off the
>> radiators once the TVR has detected the set temperature
>>
>> An explanation.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbxccVDpc
>> Other youtube videos my give a better explanation.
>
> I was planning to let the TRVs do that for me, what is the point of
> crawling round playing with the lockshields AND fitting TRVs?
>

If the system isn't balanced when you turn your heating on from cold one
or more radiators may not get hot at all UNTIL maybe one or more of the
TRV elsewhere in the system starts closing down. BUT, then your room
stat may/will stop calling for heat and the boiler closes down resulting
in zero heat to the room where the radiator stays cold because of
incorrect balancing. You balance the system first and them use the TRVs
to control the temperature in each room.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: jgaines_...@yahoo.co.uk (Jeff Gaines)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: 28 Apr 2022 13:26:49 GMT
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 by: Jeff Gaines - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:26 UTC

On 28/04/2022 in message <jcvaolFnjssU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m wrote:

>On 28/04/2022 11:04, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>On 28/04/2022 in message <jcv0fkFllcbU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m wrote:
>>
>>>On 28/04/2022 08:49, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>>On 27/04/2022 in message <jctu3cFfj7vU1@mid.individual.net> Roger Mills
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does 
>>>>>>that seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Doesn't sound unreasonable. Does the price include balancing? Installing
>>>>>TRVs doesn't remove the need for balancing if you want the  house to
>>>>>warm up more or less evenly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Are you sufficiently uncreaky to do that part yourself?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks Roger :-)
>>>>
>>>>I can set the TRVs and then use my couple of max-min thermometers to get
>>>>temperatures about right. Not very scientific bit it'll do the job!
>>>>
>>>
>>>The balancing is performed with all the TRV fully open and the water flow
>>>through the radiators adjusted with the lock shield valves. Water always
>>>takes the easiest path and if you don't throttle the flow, say, to a
>>>radiator nearest to the pump a distant radiator may not get any flow of
>>>hot water. A TVR on its own doesn't cure this. Once the system is
>>>balanced you can use the TRVs to shut off the radiators once the TVR has
>>>detected the set temperature
>>>
>>>An explanation.
>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbxccVDpc
>>>Other youtube videos my give a better explanation.
>>
>>I was planning to let the TRVs do that for me, what is the point of
>>crawling round playing with the lockshields AND fitting TRVs?
>>
>
>If the system isn't balanced when you turn your heating on from cold one
>or more radiators may not get hot at all UNTIL maybe one or more of the
>TRV elsewhere in the system starts closing down. BUT, then your room stat
>may/will stop calling for heat and the boiler closes down resulting in
>zero heat to the room where the radiator stays cold because of incorrect
>balancing. You balance the system first and them use the TRVs to control
>the temperature in each room.

In that case I wonder whether to save the money on the TRV's and just
balance it on the lockshields? I am not after precise temperatures, I just
want the bedrooms lower than the lounge/study whereas at the moment I have
the opposite.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There is absolutely no substitute for a genuine lack of preparation

Re: Plumbing Job

<jcvmavFps8dU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: mills37....@gmail.com (Roger Mills)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:23:27 +0100
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 by: Roger Mills - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:23 UTC

On 28/04/2022 11:04, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 in message <jcv0fkFllcbU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m wrote:
>
>> On 28/04/2022 08:49, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 in message <jctu3cFfj7vU1@mid.individual.net> Roger
>>> Mills wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more,
>>>>> does  that seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't sound unreasonable. Does the price include balancing?
>>>> Installing TRVs doesn't remove the need for balancing if you want
>>>> the  house to warm up more or less evenly.
>>>>
>>>> Are you sufficiently uncreaky to do that part yourself?
>>>
>>> Thanks Roger :-)
>>>
>>> I can set the TRVs and then use my couple of max-min thermometers to
>>> get temperatures about right. Not very scientific bit it'll do the job!
>>>
>>
>> The balancing is performed with all the TRV fully open and the water
>> flow through the radiators adjusted with the lock shield valves.
>> Water always takes the easiest path and if you don't throttle the
>> flow, say, to a radiator nearest to the pump a distant radiator may
>> not get any flow of hot water. A TVR on its own doesn't cure this.
>> Once the system is balanced you can use the TRVs to shut off the
>> radiators once the TVR has detected the set temperature
>>
>> An explanation.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbxccVDpc
>> Other youtube videos my give a better explanation.
>
> I was planning to let the TRVs do that for me, what is the point of
> crawling round playing with the lockshields AND fitting TRVs?
>

The point is that they don't do the same job! I explained in an earlier
post that fitting TRVs doesn't remove the need to balance.

Balancing by using the lockshields to throttle the flow through the
hottest radiators ensures that all radiators heat up at the same time
with more or less the same temperature drop across each of them.

TRVs then save energy by turning off each rad as its room reaches the
required temperature. The room with the roomstat shouldn't have a TRV,
and should be set to warm up slightly more slowly than the other rooms.
The room stat will then turn off the whole system when *that* room is up
to temperature.

--
Cheers,
Roger

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: jgaines_...@yahoo.co.uk (Jeff Gaines)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: 28 Apr 2022 15:23:47 GMT
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 by: Jeff Gaines - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:23 UTC

On 28/04/2022 in message <jcvmavFps8dU1@mid.individual.net> Roger Mills
wrote:

>>I was planning to let the TRVs do that for me, what is the point of
>>crawling round playing with the lockshields AND fitting TRVs?
>>
>
>The point is that they don't do the same job! I explained in an earlier
>post that fitting TRVs doesn't remove the need to balance.
>
>Balancing by using the lockshields to throttle the flow through the
>hottest radiators ensures that all radiators heat up at the same time with
>more or less the same temperature drop across each of them.
>
>TRVs then save energy by turning off each rad as its room reaches the
>required temperature. The room with the roomstat shouldn't have a TRV, and
>should be set to warm up slightly more slowly than the other rooms. The
>room stat will then turn off the whole system when that room is up to
>temperature.

Sorry but I don't see the difference. I want the rooms to reach a certain
temperature so surely I can achieve relative temperatures by adjusting the
lockshield between barely open and a quarter and then the whole system
with the hall stat or water temperature?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Though no-one can go back and make a new start, everyone can start from
now and make a new ending.

Re: Plumbing Job

<t4ecik$b1h$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Bev...@invalid.com (Bev)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:41:08 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Bev - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:41 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:26:49 +0000, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> On 28/04/2022 in message <jcvaolFnjssU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m
> wrote:

>>>>The balancing is performed with all the TRV fully open and the water
>>>>flow through the radiators adjusted with the lock shield valves.
>>>>Water always takes the easiest path and if you don't throttle the
>>>>flow, say, to a radiator nearest to the pump a distant radiator may
>>>>not get any flow of hot water. A TVR on its own doesn't cure this.
>>>>Once the system is balanced you can use the TRVs to shut off the
>>>>radiators once the TVR has detected the set temperature
>>>>
>>>>An explanation.
>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbxccVDpc Other youtube videos my
>>>>give a better explanation.
>>>
>>>I was planning to let the TRVs do that for me, what is the point of
>>>crawling round playing with the lockshields AND fitting TRVs?
>>>
>>>
>>If the system isn't balanced when you turn your heating on from cold one
>>or more radiators may not get hot at all UNTIL maybe one or more of the
>>TRV elsewhere in the system starts closing down. BUT, then your room
>>stat may/will stop calling for heat and the boiler closes down resulting
>>in zero heat to the room where the radiator stays cold because of
>>incorrect balancing. You balance the system first and them use the TRVs
>>to control the temperature in each room.
>
> In that case I wonder whether to save the money on the TRV's and just
> balance it on the lockshields? I am not after precise temperatures, I
> just want the bedrooms lower than the lounge/study whereas at the moment
> I have the opposite.

I think you are confusing balancing a system with controlling the heat.

Balancing is done by adjusting the flow through a particualr radiator(s)
to ensure that all in the system heat up at approximately the same rate.
Once the system is balanced then you would use a TRV to control the
temperature in a particular room.

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 17:44:04 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 16:44 UTC

On 28/04/2022 16:23, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 in message <jcvmavFps8dU1@mid.individual.net> Roger Mills
> wrote:
>
>>> I was planning to let the TRVs do that for me, what is the point of
>>> crawling round playing with the lockshields AND fitting TRVs?
>>>
>>
>> The point is that they don't do the same job! I explained in an
>> earlier post that fitting TRVs doesn't remove the need to balance.
>>
>> Balancing by using the lockshields to throttle the flow through the
>> hottest radiators ensures that all radiators heat up at the same time
>> with more or less the same temperature drop across each of them.
>>
>> TRVs then save energy by turning off each rad as its room reaches the
>> required temperature. The room with the roomstat shouldn't have a TRV,
>> and should be set to warm up slightly more slowly than the other
>> rooms. The room stat will then turn off the whole system when that
>> room is up to temperature.
>
> Sorry but I don't see the difference. I want the rooms to reach a
> certain temperature so surely I can achieve relative temperatures by
> adjusting the lockshield between barely open and a quarter and then the
> whole system with the hall stat or water temperature?
>

You only balance the system once, or once per change of the system - a
change of radiator size, adding radiator or perhaps changing the hot
water tank). You do this by leaving one radiator valve on each radiator
fully open and go around each radiator and check that they are all
reaching temperature. You adjust the second (lock shield) valve on all
the radiators to achieve this condition - this is balancing the system.

Remember you may have a large radiator rated at 3kW in your main living
room but smaller radiators rated at 1kW for the bedrooms. The
difference in physical sizes, or number of panels/fins, takes into
account that the system may have been designed in the first place for
lower bedroom temperatures.

The temperature of each room can be controlled by setting the TVRs. Not
all days require the same radiator control settings

For instance, on a cold winters day the sun is shining through the
bedroom window and solar heating brings the bedroom temperature up to
18C but your main living room is on the other side of the building and
doesn't get the sun. Ideally when you have the heating on you want the
bedroom radiator to be fully off and the living room radiator to be on.

On another winters day the sun isn't shining and the bedroom gets no
solar heating, now with the heating on you want both the radiator in the
bedroom and the one in your living room to be on.

A TRV in the bedroom will detect on the sunny day that the room is
already at 18C and turn the radiator off but on the day without sun the
TVR will detect the bedroom is at a lower temperature and leave the
radiator on until 18C is reached. If you didn't have a TVR you would
have to manually adjust each day to achieve the same result.

A simplistic example because there are other factors resulting in high
bedroom temperatures. If you leave all doors open hot air will rise from
downstairs and heat the bedrooms.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 23:47:01 +0100
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 by: John Rumm - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 22:47 UTC

On 28/04/2022 11:04, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 in message <jcv0fkFllcbU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m wrote:
>
>> On 28/04/2022 08:49, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 in message <jctu3cFfj7vU1@mid.individual.net> Roger
>>> Mills wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more,
>>>>> does  that seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't sound unreasonable. Does the price include balancing?
>>>> Installing TRVs doesn't remove the need for balancing if you want
>>>> the  house to warm up more or less evenly.
>>>>
>>>> Are you sufficiently uncreaky to do that part yourself?
>>>
>>> Thanks Roger :-)
>>>
>>> I can set the TRVs and then use my couple of max-min thermometers to
>>> get temperatures about right. Not very scientific bit it'll do the job!
>>>
>>
>> The balancing is performed with all the TRV fully open and the water
>> flow through the radiators adjusted with the lock shield valves.
>> Water always takes the easiest path and if you don't throttle the
>> flow, say, to a radiator nearest to the pump a distant radiator may
>> not get any flow of hot water. A TVR on its own doesn't cure this.
>> Once the system is balanced you can use the TRVs to shut off the
>> radiators once the TVR has detected the set temperature
>>
>> An explanation.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbxccVDpc
>> Other youtube videos my give a better explanation.
>
> I was planning to let the TRVs do that for me, what is the point of
> crawling round playing with the lockshields AND fitting TRVs?

Because one will result is a properly balanced system and the other will
not.

Any "balancing" that relies on TRVs will result in rooms that heat
unevenly, since you will get some rooms getting practically no heat at
all until other rooms fully reach set temperature. So you get hot and
cold areas around the place. You also run the heating on part load for
longer as it tries to get the last few rooms up to temp. If this is
below the minimum modulation output of the boiler, then it will have to
cycle to control the heat input. Thus extra fuel use and expense.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Balancing_central_heating_radiators

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: vir.camp...@invalid.invalid (Vir Campestris)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:03:25 +0100
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 by: Vir Campestris - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 21:03 UTC

On 28/04/2022 16:23, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> Sorry but I don't see the difference. I want the rooms to reach a
> certain temperature so surely I can achieve relative temperatures by
> adjusting the lockshield between barely open and a quarter and then the
> whole system with the hall stat or water temperature?

When you balance the system manually you'll have it set up correctly for
that particular day, with the sun, wind and temperature.

The TRVs will give you weather compensation on a per room basis.

You're describing the way a system was before TRVs were possible, and
you had to fiddle with radiators at different times of year.

Andy

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 08:02:04 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:02 UTC

On 29/04/2022 22:03, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 16:23, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> Sorry but I don't see the difference. I want the rooms to reach a
>> certain temperature so surely I can achieve relative temperatures by
>> adjusting the lockshield between barely open and a quarter and then
>> the whole system with the hall stat or water temperature?
>
> When you balance the system manually you'll have it set up correctly for
> that particular day, with the sun, wind and temperature.
>
> The TRVs will give you weather compensation on a per room basis.
>
> You're describing the way a system was before TRVs were possible, and
> you had to fiddle with radiators at different times of year.
>
> Andy

Adding TVRs don't balance the system and are not a substitute for not
doing so.
Once a system is properly balanced the TVRs automatically make the
adjustments for rooms being heated by the sun shining through windows etc.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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From: jgaines_...@yahoo.co.uk (Jeff Gaines)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: 30 Apr 2022 07:35:30 GMT
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 by: Jeff Gaines - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:35 UTC

On 28/04/2022 in message <jcvmavFps8dU1@mid.individual.net> Roger Mills
wrote:

>The point is that they don't do the same job! I explained in an earlier
>post that fitting TRVs doesn't remove the need to balance.
>
>Balancing by using the lockshields to throttle the flow through the
>hottest radiators ensures that all radiators heat up at the same time with
>more or less the same temperature drop across each of them.
>
>TRVs then save energy by turning off each rad as its room reaches the
>required temperature. The room with the roomstat shouldn't have a TRV, and
>should be set to warm up slightly more slowly than the other rooms. The
>room stat will then turn off the whole system when that room is up to
>temperature.

OK, many thanks to Roger and others for the explanation :-)

I will go the whole hog. Once the new radiator is in I will balance the
system (sounds like a good excuse for buying an IR thermometer) and then
use the TRVs to maintain room temperatures at a level I like, pretty low
for the spared bedroom (used to store old computers), higher in the lounge
where I sit and try to find something worth watching on TV to the bedroom
- somewhere in the middle!

Thank you all for your patience.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
640k ought to be enough for anyone.
(Bill Gates, 1981)

Re: Plumbing Job

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 18:05:57 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Sun, 1 May 2022 17:05 UTC

On 26/04/2022 12:12, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 in message <jcofm2Fe4rtU1@mid.individual.net> alan_m wrote:
>
>> On 25/04/2022 21:05, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an unbalanced heating system in this 2 bed bungalow. I have a
>>> quote to help me sort it which consist of putting a new 2 metre
>>> (appx) radiator in the lounge with thermostatic valves, replacing
>>> the  lockshield on the 9 other rads with thermostatic valves and
>>> replacing  the copper cylinder with an insulated one.
>>>
>>> I have been told it's 3-4 days and been quoted £1,375 plus VAT (£1,650).
>>>
>>> I am too old and creaky to do stuff like this myself any more, does
>>> that seem a reasonable price do you think?
>>>
>>
>>
>> 10 off TVRs+lockshield = £120 to £250 depending on brand.
>> 1 off radiator  = £150 (depends on heat output/type)
>> 1 off tank = £200
>> Replacement pipe work = ?
>>
>> Say, £550 for materials + markup. (including VAT)
>> That leaves around £1000 for maybe 25 hours of labour (£40/hour incl vat)
>
> Many thanks alan_m :-)
>
> Looks like it's about right then.
>

A good time to have the whole system flushed and don't forget
fresh inhibitor too (has he actually quoted for this ?).

Re: Plumbing Job

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From: vir.camp...@invalid.invalid (Vir Campestris)
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Subject: Re: Plumbing Job
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 by: Vir Campestris - Tue, 3 May 2022 20:39 UTC

On 30/04/2022 08:02, alan_m wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 22:03, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 28/04/2022 16:23, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> Sorry but I don't see the difference. I want the rooms to reach a
>>> certain temperature so surely I can achieve relative temperatures by
>>> adjusting the lockshield between barely open and a quarter and then
>>> the whole system with the hall stat or water temperature?
>>
>> When you balance the system manually you'll have it set up correctly
>> for that particular day, with the sun, wind and temperature.
>>
>> The TRVs will give you weather compensation on a per room basis.
>>
>> You're describing the way a system was before TRVs were possible, and
>> you had to fiddle with radiators at different times of year.
>>
>> Andy
>
> Adding TVRs don't balance the system and are not a substitute for not
> doing so.
> Once a system is properly balanced the TVRs automatically make the
> adjustments for rooms being heated by the sun shining through windows etc.
>

TVRs... yes... On my mind at the moment, the rear tyres on my car are a
funny size and the only other thing that uses them is a TVR :P

But I think I'm agreeing with you.

Andy

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