I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.

Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?

I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
cause for further concern?

Pics at:

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz

--
Cheers, Rob

On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 23:24:48 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.
>
> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>
> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
> cause for further concern?
>
> Pics at:
>
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz

Hot metals are bound to oxidise. Just clean up any electrical contacts. A basic safety check is always advisable on bar fires, many are hopelessly unsafe.

On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:08:36 +1000, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 23:24:48 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2
>> bar
>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching
>> off.
>>
>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars'
>> securing
>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>
>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have
>> corroded
>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is
>> this
>> cause for further concern?
>>
>> Pics at:
>>
>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>
> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.

Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.

> Just clean up any electrical contacts. A basic safety check is always
> advisable on bar fires, many are hopelessly unsafe.

On 4/25/2022 6:24 PM, RJH wrote:
> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.
>
> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>
> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
> cause for further concern?
>
> Pics at:
>
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz

Once surfaces are degraded, "clean-up" does not last long.
The two metallic items intended for low-resistance connection
must be replaced. That stops the degradation from picking up
where it left off.

I had a piece of lab equipment which cost around 5000-6000 or so,
and the power supply in it had a burned connector. I cleaned it up
the first time, and it lasted about 3 months before the same
thing happened again. After a couple more "fixes", I made a
permanent connection between the items, giving the shitty surfaces
no chance to make more trouble.

*******

In modern toaster ovens, they changed from socket and rod heating,
to "spot-welded connections everywhere". This stops the kind of
problem in your picture, but at the price that typical DIY
cannot repair common problems any more. You'd need a spot-welder
that can re-make connections to new elements, for example. And
it's a cold spot weld, rather than welding two frame components
on your car. That allows working on thinnish materials without
burning them.

Some kind of "dissimilar metals" or electrochemical cell seems
to have formed on your item. It looks like a good effort was put into
making contacts in this case, but something from underneath
that area seems to have chemically attacked.

But all I can tell you, from experience, is using sandpaper
on the contact areas, will not help. When metal connectors "cook",
the composition of the metal changes, which is part of the
reason it remains ohmic, runs hotter than normal, and
accelerates any degradation process.

And for obvious reasons, you cannot use solder on heating
elements. The insurance company hates paying out on fire
claims, and finding somebody has tried to use solder
(which melts and flows away, causing potential havoc and
tripped protection devices and so on).

In the modern toaster ovens, all the electrical runs are
stiff wires, they're spot welded to one another, and guides
hold them in place. Because the metal to metal connections
are permanent, there are no longer connectors to go ohmic.
And to the manufacturer, that is the perceived advantage.
The item is "disposable", but up to the point you're forced
to throw it away, it is "safe".

Paul

On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 05:47:17 UTC+1, Paul wrote:
> On 4/25/2022 6:24 PM, RJH wrote:

> > I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
> > electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
> > recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.
> >
> > Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
> > bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
> > intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
> > cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
> >
> > I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
> > nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
> > cause for further concern?
> >
> > Pics at:
> >
> > https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
> Once surfaces are degraded, "clean-up" does not last long.
> The two metallic items intended for low-resistance connection
> must be replaced. That stops the degradation from picking up
> where it left off.
>
> I had a piece of lab equipment which cost around 5000-6000 or so,
> and the power supply in it had a burned connector. I cleaned it up
> the first time, and it lasted about 3 months before the same
> thing happened again. After a couple more "fixes", I made a
> permanent connection between the items, giving the shitty surfaces
> no chance to make more trouble.
>
> *******
>
> In modern toaster ovens, they changed from socket and rod heating,
> to "spot-welded connections everywhere". This stops the kind of
> problem in your picture, but at the price that typical DIY
> cannot repair common problems any more. You'd need a spot-welder
> that can re-make connections to new elements, for example. And
> it's a cold spot weld, rather than welding two frame components
> on your car. That allows working on thinnish materials without
> burning them.
>
> Some kind of "dissimilar metals" or electrochemical cell seems
> to have formed on your item. It looks like a good effort was put into
> making contacts in this case, but something from underneath
> that area seems to have chemically attacked.
>
> But all I can tell you, from experience, is using sandpaper
> on the contact areas, will not help. When metal connectors "cook",
> the composition of the metal changes, which is part of the
> reason it remains ohmic, runs hotter than normal, and
> accelerates any degradation process.
>
> And for obvious reasons, you cannot use solder on heating
> elements. The insurance company hates paying out on fire
> claims, and finding somebody has tried to use solder
> (which melts and flows away, causing potential havoc and
> tripped protection devices and so on).
>
> In the modern toaster ovens, all the electrical runs are
> stiff wires, they're spot welded to one another, and guides
> hold them in place. Because the metal to metal connections
> are permanent, there are no longer connectors to go ohmic.
> And to the manufacturer, that is the perceived advantage.
> The item is "disposable", but up to the point you're forced
> to throw it away, it is "safe".
>
> Paul

Well, that contradicts an awful lot of my experience, but there ya go.

On 4/26/2022 4:18 AM, Animal wrote:

>
> Well, that contradicts an awful lot of my experience, but there ya go.
>

Well, give an example. What have you buffed up
with sandpaper, that lasted forever, carried a couple of
kilowatts and likely idled at 100C or over ?

There are no guarantees when you do stuff like that.

There is a big difference between "there was a little oxide
on the outside and no thermal damage" and "that baby was burned
to a crisp, but I took a file and filed it down until I found metal".
The items I've worked on, it's apparent when you file or sand them,
the metallic composition is no longer the same. They're just not
good conductors any longer. The damage is thru and thru.

You can touch up a flame sensor, and those seem to work OK
afterwards. But they're also designed to sit in a low temp
flame forever, so the materials are no stranger to the conditions.

Paul

On 25/04/2022 23:24, RJH wrote:
> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.
>
> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>
> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
> cause for further concern?

Personally I try not to mess with mains voltage stuff. It would need a
closer inspection to really arrive at a risk/cost/benefit analysis of this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Warmlite-WL42008N-Portable-Radiant-Heater/dp/B07HHMV54F

suggests a £35 replacement is available.
In todayss inflated times that's not a lot.

>
> Pics at:
>
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>
>

--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

On 26 Apr 2022 at 09:18:40 BST, "Animal" <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 05:47:17 UTC+1, Paul wrote:
>> On 4/25/2022 6:24 PM, RJH wrote:
>
>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
>>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
>>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
>>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
>>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>>
>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
>>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
>>> cause for further concern?
>>>
>>> Pics at:
>>>
>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>> Once surfaces are degraded, "clean-up" does not last long.
>> The two metallic items intended for low-resistance connection
>> must be replaced. That stops the degradation from picking up
>> where it left off.
>>
>> I had a piece of lab equipment which cost around 5000-6000 or so,
>> and the power supply in it had a burned connector. I cleaned it up
>> the first time, and it lasted about 3 months before the same
>> thing happened again. After a couple more "fixes", I made a
>> permanent connection between the items, giving the shitty surfaces
>> no chance to make more trouble.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> In modern toaster ovens, they changed from socket and rod heating,
>> to "spot-welded connections everywhere". This stops the kind of
>> problem in your picture, but at the price that typical DIY
>> cannot repair common problems any more. You'd need a spot-welder
>> that can re-make connections to new elements, for example. And
>> it's a cold spot weld, rather than welding two frame components
>> on your car. That allows working on thinnish materials without
>> burning them.
>>
>> Some kind of "dissimilar metals" or electrochemical cell seems
>> to have formed on your item. It looks like a good effort was put into
>> making contacts in this case, but something from underneath
>> that area seems to have chemically attacked.
>>
>> But all I can tell you, from experience, is using sandpaper
>> on the contact areas, will not help. When metal connectors "cook",
>> the composition of the metal changes, which is part of the
>> reason it remains ohmic, runs hotter than normal, and
>> accelerates any degradation process.
>>
>> And for obvious reasons, you cannot use solder on heating
>> elements. The insurance company hates paying out on fire
>> claims, and finding somebody has tried to use solder
>> (which melts and flows away, causing potential havoc and
>> tripped protection devices and so on).
>>
>> In the modern toaster ovens, all the electrical runs are
>> stiff wires, they're spot welded to one another, and guides
>> hold them in place. Because the metal to metal connections
>> are permanent, there are no longer connectors to go ohmic.
>> And to the manufacturer, that is the perceived advantage.
>> The item is "disposable", but up to the point you're forced
>> to throw it away, it is "safe".
>>
>> Paul

Many thanks.

Would you happen to know why each end experienced a different issue? One end
of each element the nuts had loosened and caused the poor contact/tarnishing.
The other the nuts tight/clean, but the mounting screws for the ceramic
element holder severely corroded. Just curious.

>
> Well, that contradicts an awful lot of my experience, but there ya go.

I've not got any experience of this situation - so I think best to bin it. It
was one of these, 4 years old:

https://www.warmlite-products.co.uk/wl42008n-radiant-2-bar-heater.html

--
Cheers, Rob

On 26 Apr 2022 at 10:03:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 25/04/2022 23:24, RJH wrote:
>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.
>>
>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>
>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
>> cause for further concern?
>
> Personally I try not to mess with mains voltage stuff. It would need a
> closer inspection to really arrive at a risk/cost/benefit analysis of this.
>

Thanks - I'll bin it.

> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Warmlite-WL42008N-Portable-Radiant-Heater/dp/B07HHMV54F
>
> suggests a £35 replacement is available.
> In todayss inflated times that's not a lot.
>

Yes - that's the exact model. And fine for my purposes - but I don't fancy
investing again if it's just going to fail so quickly.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 26/04/2022 09:18, Animal wrote:

>
> Well, that contradicts an awful lot of my experience, but there ya go.

+1

Clean it up and away you go for years more use. Not recommended for an
electric fire element but a little smear of grease also helps stop
further problems, especially on something used outside.

If something is burnt then possibly replacement is a better option
unless you can fully cut out carbonised insulating material.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 26/04/2022 10:14, RJH wrote:
> On 26 Apr 2022 at 10:03:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 25/04/2022 23:24, RJH wrote:
>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
>>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
>>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
>>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
>>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>>
>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
>>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
>>> cause for further concern?
>>
>> Personally I try not to mess with mains voltage stuff. It would need a
>> closer inspection to really arrive at a risk/cost/benefit analysis of this.
>>
>
> Thanks - I'll bin it.
>
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Warmlite-WL42008N-Portable-Radiant-Heater/dp/B07HHMV54F
>>
>> suggests a £35 replacement is available.
>> In todayss inflated times that's not a lot.
>>
>
> Yes - that's the exact model. And fine for my purposes - but I don't fancy
> investing again if it's just going to fail so quickly.
>
>
Well silicone grease on the terminals would be good. I suspect that
somehow its been stored near something that put corrosive fumes onto one
end of it.

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 26/04/2022 03:42, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:08:36 +1000, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 23:24:48 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours)
>>> 2 bar
>>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
>>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching
>>> off.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars'
>>> securing
>>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
>>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>>
>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have
>>> corroded
>>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but
>>> is this
>>> cause for further concern?
>>>
>>> Pics at:
>>>
>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>>
>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
>
> Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.

Something an ignorant art student would say.

They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of oxide
that prevents any further corrosion.

I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen. Gold is the
only one I can think of.

Any schoolboy chemist would know this.

>> Just clean up any electrical contacts. A basic safety check is always
>> advisable on bar fires, many are hopelessly unsafe.

On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 11:04:02 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
> >> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
> >
> > Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.
> Something an ignorant art student would say.
>
> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of oxide
> that prevents any further corrosion.
>
> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen. Gold is the
> only one I can think of.
>
Even gold has an oxide which is stable at room temperature but which
decomposes at higher temperatures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold(III)_oxide
John

On 10:14 26 Apr 2022, RJH said:

> On 26 Apr 2022 at 10:03:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 25/04/2022 23:24, RJH wrote:
>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50
>>> hours) 2 bar electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few
>>> months back, and recently started playing up, with half a bar lit,
>>> and then switching off.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars'
>>> securing bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The
>>> one with the intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd
>>> assume that's a case of cleaning up the connecting pins and
>>> retightening the nuts?
>>>
>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have
>>> corroded nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one
>>> end, but is this cause for further concern?
>>
>> Personally I try not to mess with mains voltage stuff. It would need
>> a closer inspection to really arrive at a risk/cost/benefit analysis
>> of this.
>>
>
> Thanks - I'll bin it.
>
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Warmlite-WL42008N-Portable-Radiant-
>> Heater/dp/B07HHMV54F
>>
>> suggests a �35 replacement is available.
>> In todayss inflated times that's not a lot.
>
> Yes - that's the exact model. And fine for my purposes - but I don't
> fancy investing again if it's just going to fail so quickly.

Personally I much prefer halogen heaters to those old-style ones. I
didn't think they still make them. Admittedly the max power from a
halogen heater is often lower but for short bursts of use the way heat
is projected makes up for that.

On 26/04/2022 11:40, John Walliker wrote:
> On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 11:04:02 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
>
>>>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
>>>
>>> Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.
>> Something an ignorant art student would say.
>>
>> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of oxide
>> that prevents any further corrosion.
>>
>> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen. Gold is the
>> only one I can think of.
>>
> Even gold has an oxide which is stable at room temperature but which
> decomposes at higher temperatures.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold(III)_oxide
> John

Thanks, I live and learn.

Without wishing to sound ungracious, I don't believe gold oxidises in
air/oxygen.

In article <t48ksp$9q4$1@dont-email.me>,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> On 26/04/2022 11:40, John Walliker wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 11:04:02 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
> >
> >>>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
> >>>
> >>> Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.
> >> Something an ignorant art student would say.
> >>
> >> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of oxide
> >> that prevents any further corrosion.
> >>
> >> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen. Gold is the
> >> only one I can think of.
> >>
> > Even gold has an oxide which is stable at room temperature but which
> > decomposes at higher temperatures.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold(III)_oxide
> > John

> Thanks, I live and learn.

> Without wishing to sound ungracious, I don't believe gold oxidises in
> air/oxygen.

you need OXygen to get an OXide

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 10:02:12 UTC+1, Paul wrote:
> On 4/26/2022 4:18 AM, Animal wrote:

> > Well, that contradicts an awful lot of my experience, but there ya go.
> >
> Well, give an example. What have you buffed up
> with sandpaper, that lasted forever, carried a couple of
> kilowatts and likely idled at 100C or over ?

What bad contacts have I fixed? It's a very long list, and includes the occasional electric fire fwiw. Sandpaper is the last resort, better to leave a smooth finish. IME a small nut & bolt worked well on electric heaters. Whatever you do, a hot connection needs to be and remain gas tight. If it's not, it will fail soon.

> There are no guarantees when you do stuff like that.

not much in life is guaranteed. That is not a reason to do nothing.

> There is a big difference between "there was a little oxide
> on the outside and no thermal damage" and "that baby was burned
> to a crisp, but I took a file and filed it down until I found metal".
> The items I've worked on, it's apparent when you file or sand them,
> the metallic composition is no longer the same. They're just not
> good conductors any longer. The damage is thru and thru.

Electric fires are simple devices. It's hard to imagine how you'd be unable to repair one due to a burnt out bit. Even the resistance wire bars can be repaired with nut & bolt and last decades.

> You can touch up a flame sensor, and those seem to work OK
> afterwards. But they're also designed to sit in a low temp
> flame forever, so the materials are no stranger to the conditions.
>
> Paul

On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 10:14:31 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
> On 26 Apr 2022 at 10:03:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 25/04/2022 23:24, RJH wrote:
> >> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours) 2 bar
> >> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back, and
> >> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching off.
> >>
> >> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars' securing
> >> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
> >> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case of
> >> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
> >>
> >> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have corroded
> >> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but is this
> >> cause for further concern?
> >
> > Personally I try not to mess with mains voltage stuff. It would need a
> > closer inspection to really arrive at a risk/cost/benefit analysis of this.
> >
> Thanks - I'll bin it.
> > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Warmlite-WL42008N-Portable-Radiant-Heater/dp/B07HHMV54F
> >
> > suggests a £35 replacement is available.
> > In todayss inflated times that's not a lot.
> >
> Yes - that's the exact model. And fine for my purposes - but I don't fancy
> investing again if it's just going to fail so quickly.

Fix it then :) I usually suggest getting old appliances, far more reliable than new junk today, but with bar heaters, oldies are typically unsafe.

On 26/04/2022 13:27, charles wrote:
> In article <t48ksp$9q4$1@dont-email.me>,
> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/04/2022 11:40, John Walliker wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 11:04:02 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.
>>>> Something an ignorant art student would say.
>>>>
>>>> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of oxide
>>>> that prevents any further corrosion.
>>>>
>>>> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen. Gold is the
>>>> only one I can think of.
>>>>
>>> Even gold has an oxide which is stable at room temperature but which
>>> decomposes at higher temperatures.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold(III)_oxide
>>> John
>
>> Thanks, I live and learn.
>
>> Without wishing to sound ungracious, I don't believe gold oxidises in
>> air/oxygen.
>
>
> you need OXygen to get an OXide

Gold needs a bit more help than just plain oxygen to form an oxide.

I would suggest that "perchloric acid and an alkali metal perchlorate in
a sealed quartz tube at a temperature of around 250 °C and a pressure of
around 30 MPa" is beyond a natural process.

This is about some fool saying regarding oxidisation, "Stainless steel
and nichrome doesn't".

On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 13:59:38 UTC+1, Animal wrote:
> On Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 10:02:12 UTC+1, Paul wrote:
> > On 4/26/2022 4:18 AM, Animal wrote:
>
> > > Well, that contradicts an awful lot of my experience, but there ya go..
> > >
> > Well, give an example. What have you buffed up
> > with sandpaper, that lasted forever, carried a couple of
> > kilowatts and likely idled at 100C or over ?
> What bad contacts have I fixed? It's a very long list, and includes the occasional electric fire fwiw. Sandpaper is the last resort, better to leave a smooth finish. IME a small nut & bolt worked well on electric heaters. Whatever you do, a hot connection needs to be and remain gas tight. If it's not, it will fail soon.
> > There are no guarantees when you do stuff like that.
> not much in life is guaranteed. That is not a reason to do nothing.
> > There is a big difference between "there was a little oxide
> > on the outside and no thermal damage" and "that baby was burned
> > to a crisp, but I took a file and filed it down until I found metal".
> > The items I've worked on, it's apparent when you file or sand them,
> > the metallic composition is no longer the same. They're just not
> > good conductors any longer. The damage is thru and thru.
> Electric fires are simple devices. It's hard to imagine how you'd be unable to repair one due to a burnt out bit. Even the resistance wire bars can be repaired with nut & bolt and last decades.
> > You can touch up a flame sensor, and those seem to work OK
> > afterwards. But they're also designed to sit in a low temp
> > flame forever, so the materials are no stranger to the conditions.
> >
> > Paul
Oh for the halcyon days when replacement spiral elements were sold at the electrical counter in Woolworths. (Every light bulb sold used to be tested before handing over to the purchaser)

On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 20:03:59 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 26/04/2022 03:42, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:08:36 +1000, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 23:24:48 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
>>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50 hours)
>>>> 2 bar
>>>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back,
>>>> and
>>>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then switching
>>>> off.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars'
>>>> securing
>>>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>>>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a case
>>>> of
>>>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>>>
>>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have
>>>> corroded
>>>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but
>>>> is this
>>>> cause for further concern?
>>>>
>>>> Pics at:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>>>
>>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.

>> Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.

> Something an ignorant art student would say.

We'll see...

> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of oxide
> that prevents any further corrosion.

Mindless hair splitting.

> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen.

That isn't CORROSION, fuckwit.

> Gold is the only one I can think of.
>
> Any schoolboy chemist would know this.

Only a terminal fuckwit would try claiming that
what we see with stainless steel and nichrome
wire is CORROSION.

And that initial protective oxidisation doesnt require heat anyway,
fuckwit.

>>> Just clean up any electrical contacts. A basic safety check is always
>>> advisable on bar fires, many are hopelessly unsafe.

On 26/04/2022 18:18, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 20:03:59 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 26/04/2022 03:42, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:08:36 +1000, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 23:24:48 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
>>>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50
>>>>> hours) 2 bar
>>>>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back,
>>>>> and
>>>>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then
>>>>> switching off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars'
>>>>> securing
>>>>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>>>>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a
>>>>> case of
>>>>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have
>>>>> corroded
>>>>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but
>>>>> is this
>>>>> cause for further concern?
>>>>>
>>>>> Pics at:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>>>>
>>>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
>
>>>  Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.
>
>> Something an ignorant art student would say.
>
> We'll see...
>
>> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of
>> oxide that prevents any further corrosion.
>
> Mindless hair splitting.
>
>> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen.
>
> That isn't CORROSION, fuckwit.

Quite, and I said they didn't corrode any further.

>> Gold is the only one I can think of.
>>
>> Any schoolboy chemist would know this.
>
> Only a terminal fuckwit would try claiming that
> what we see with stainless steel and nichrome
> wire is CORROSION.

Only an idiot would read that from my post. I said quite the opposite
that a literate schoolboy chemist would have known. That stainless steel
and nichrome oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer
of oxide that prevents any further corrosion.

> And that initial protective oxidisation doesnt require heat anyway,
> fuckwit.

Only an illiterate would read from my post that you have to apply heat
for a metal to oxidise.

>>>> Just clean up any electrical contacts. A basic safety check is
>>>> always advisable on bar fires, many are hopelessly unsafe.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:14:01 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 26/04/2022 18:18, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 20:03:59 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 26/04/2022 03:42, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:08:36 +1000, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 23:24:48 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
>>>>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50
>>>>>> hours) 2 bar
>>>>>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months back,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then
>>>>>> switching off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars'
>>>>>> securing
>>>>>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>>>>>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a
>>>>>> case of
>>>>>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders have
>>>>>> corroded
>>>>>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end, but
>>>>>> is this
>>>>>> cause for further concern?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pics at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>>>>>
>>>>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
>>
>>>> Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.
>>
>>> Something an ignorant art student would say.
>> We'll see...
>>
>>> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of
>>> oxide that prevents any further corrosion.
>> Mindless hair splitting.
>>
>>> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen.
>> That isn't CORROSION, fuckwit.
>
> Quite, and I said they didn't corrode any further.
>
>>> Gold is the only one I can think of.
>>>
>>> Any schoolboy chemist would know this.
>> Only a terminal fuckwit would try claiming that
>> what we see with stainless steel and nichrome
>> wire is CORROSION.
>
> Only an idiot would read that from my post.

Your post is irrelevant and so is your mindless bullshit.

> I said quite the opposite that a literate schoolboy chemist would have
> known. That stainless steel and nichrome oxidise very quickly in air to
> provide an insulating layer of oxide that prevents any further corrosion.

Pity what was being discussed was the VISIBLE CORROSION
in that electric fire.

>> And that initial protective oxidisation doesnt require heat anyway,
>> fuckwit.
>
> Only an illiterate would read from my post

Your post is irrelevant and so is your mindless bullshit.

> that you have to apply heat for a metal to oxidise.

We aren't discussing oxidisation, we were discussing
the VISIBLE CORROSION before you showed up and
made a complete fool of yourself, as always.

>>>>> Just clean up any electrical contacts. A basic safety check is
>>>>> always advisable on bar fires, many are hopelessly unsafe.

On 26/04/2022 22:48, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:14:01 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 26/04/2022 18:18, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 20:03:59 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 26/04/2022 03:42, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:08:36 +1000, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 23:24:48 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
>>>>>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50
>>>>>>> hours) 2 bar
>>>>>>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months
>>>>>>> back, and
>>>>>>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then
>>>>>>> switching off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars'
>>>>>>> securing
>>>>>>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with the
>>>>>>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a
>>>>>>> case of
>>>>>>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders
>>>>>>> have corroded
>>>>>>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end,
>>>>>>> but is this
>>>>>>> cause for further concern?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pics at:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
>>>
>>>>>  Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.
>>>
>>>> Something an ignorant art student would say.
>>>  We'll see...
>>>
>>>> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of
>>>> oxide that prevents any further corrosion.
>>>  Mindless hair splitting.
>>>
>>>> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen.
>>>  That isn't CORROSION, fuckwit.
>>
>> Quite, and I said they didn't corrode any further.
>>
>>>> Gold is the only one I can think of.
>>>>
>>>> Any schoolboy chemist would know this.
>>>  Only a terminal fuckwit would try claiming that
>>> what we see with stainless steel and nichrome
>>> wire is CORROSION.
>>
>> Only an idiot would read that from my post.
>
> Your post is irrelevant and so is your mindless bullshit.
>
>> I said quite the opposite that a literate schoolboy chemist would have
>> known. That stainless steel and nichrome oxidise very quickly in air
>> to provide an insulating layer of oxide that prevents any further
>> corrosion.
>
> Pity what was being discussed was the VISIBLE CORROSION
> in that electric fire.
>
>>> And that initial protective oxidisation doesnt require heat anyway,
>>> fuckwit.
>>
>> Only an illiterate would read from my post
>
> Your post is irrelevant and so is your mindless bullshit.

Then why reply to it? Nothing better to do?

>> that you have to apply heat for a metal to oxidise.
>
> We aren't discussing oxidisation, we were discussing
> the VISIBLE CORROSION before you showed up and
> made a complete fool of yourself, as always.

Let us remind ourselves, Animal said, "Hot metals are bound to oxidise"
and some schoolboy self-styled chemist said "Stainless steel and
nichrome doesn't".

You might not be discussing oxidation but everyone else is.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 08:53:28 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 26/04/2022 22:48, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 07:14:01 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 26/04/2022 18:18, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 20:03:59 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 26/04/2022 03:42, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:08:36 +1000, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 23:24:48 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
>>>>>>>> I've an old school (but fairly new and lightly used, maybe 50
>>>>>>>> hours) 2 bar
>>>>>>>> electric fire. One of the bars failed to come on a few months
>>>>>>>> back, and
>>>>>>>> recently started playing up, with half a bar lit, and then
>>>>>>>> switching off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, the problem appears to be a loose connection - both bars'
>>>>>>>> securing
>>>>>>>> bolt had come loose at the same end of the element. The one with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> intermittent fault unwound a good few turns. I'd assume that's a
>>>>>>>> case of
>>>>>>>> cleaning up the connecting pins and retightening the nuts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also noticed, at the other end of the elements, both holders
>>>>>>>> have corroded
>>>>>>>> nuts/bolts. It seems a bit odd to me that it's only at one end,
>>>>>>>> but is this
>>>>>>>> cause for further concern?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pics at:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hot metals are bound to oxidise.
>>>>
>>>>>> Stainless steel and nichrome doesn't.
>>>>
>>>>> Something an ignorant art student would say.
>>>> We'll see...
>>>>
>>>>> They oxidise very quickly in air to provide an insulating layer of
>>>>> oxide that prevents any further corrosion.
>>>> Mindless hair splitting.
>>>>
>>>>> I can assure you very few metals don't oxidise in oxygen.
>>>> That isn't CORROSION, fuckwit.
>>>
>>> Quite, and I said they didn't corrode any further.
>>>
>>>>> Gold is the only one I can think of.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any schoolboy chemist would know this.
>>>> Only a terminal fuckwit would try claiming that
>>>> what we see with stainless steel and nichrome
>>>> wire is CORROSION.
>>>
>>> Only an idiot would read that from my post.
>> Your post is irrelevant and so is your mindless bullshit.
>>
>>> I said quite the opposite that a literate schoolboy chemist would have
>>> known. That stainless steel and nichrome oxidise very quickly in air
>>> to provide an insulating layer of oxide that prevents any further
>>> corrosion.
>> Pity what was being discussed was the VISIBLE CORROSION
>> in that electric fire.
>>
>>>> And that initial protective oxidisation doesnt require heat anyway,
>>>> fuckwit.
>>>
>>> Only an illiterate would read from my post
>> Your post is irrelevant and so is your mindless bullshit.
>
> Then why reply to it?

To rub your nose in that fact.

> Nothing better to do?

Some of us can managed to do more than one thing for hours.

>>> that you have to apply heat for a metal to oxidise.
>> We aren't discussing oxidisation, we were discussing
>> the VISIBLE CORROSION before you showed up and
>> made a complete fool of yourself, as always.

> Let us remind ourselves,

Just how many of you are there between those ears ?

> Animal said, "Hot metals are bound to oxidise"

When what was being discussed was visible
corrosion at one end of an electric fire element.

<reams of your stupid shit flushed where it belongs>

> You might not be discussing oxidation but everyone else is.

Obvious lie with that last.