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* Question about energy costScott
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+* Re: Question about energy costalan_m
|+* Re: Question about energy costScott
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||  `- Re: Question about energy costKIDS PLAY
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|| `* Re: Question about energy costScott
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||  +* Re: Question about energy costcharles
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||  |  |||`* Re: Question about energy costHarry Bloomfield Esq
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||  |  |   `- Re: Question about energy costKIDS PLAY
||  |  +* Re: Question about energy costAndrew
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||  |   `- Re: Question about energy costThe Natural Philosopher
||  `- Re: Question about energy costBob Eager
|+* Re: Question about energy costJeff Layman
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|+* Re: Question about energy costJohn Rumm
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|`* Re: Question about energy costHarry Bloomfield Esq
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| |+* Re: Question about energy costHarry Bloomfield Esq
| ||+- Re: Question about energy costalan_m
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| `* Re: Question about energy costRoland Perry
|  +- Re: Question about energy costThe Natural Philosopher
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+* Re: Question about energy costDave Plowman (News)
|+* Re: Question about energy costBrian D
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|+- Re: Question about energy costTim Lamb
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| +* Re: Question about energy costalan_m
| |`* Re: Question about energy costJock
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| |    `* Re: Question about energy costalan_m
| |     `* Re: Question about energy costKIDS PLAY
| |      `- Re: Question about energy costHarry Bloomfield Esq
| `* Re: Question about energy costHarry Bloomfield Esq
|  +* Re: Question about energy costalan_m
|  |+- Re: Question about energy costJeff Layman
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|  | `- Re: Question about energy costMark
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`- Re: Question about energy costKIDS PLAY

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Question about energy cost

<cv8n6ht1nuprfee9crr2bth5ri14f2q062@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=50612&group=uk.d-i-y#50612

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:42:12 +0100
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 by: Scott - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:42 UTC

I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
breakfast. This got me thinking.

I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?

Re: Question about energy cost

<t4g98q$fmj$1@dont-email.me>

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From: jon...@nospam.cn (jon)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:56:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: jon - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:56 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:42:12 +0100, Scott wrote:

> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>
> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the summer.
> Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to arrive
> wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more efficient
> to boil a kettle for the washing up?

Yes, I do similar.

Re: Question about energy cost

<jd1pk4F7l4cU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100
Organization: At Home
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 by: alan_m - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:31 UTC

On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>
> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?

Gas or electric to heat the kettle?

As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
standing charge even if you are not using any gas

A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
gas kettle then the electric kettle.

I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
Microwave = 5p
Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
Electric kettle = 5.4p

Notes:
My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
so an extra cost for the fan.

The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
be reflected in it's accuracy.

The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
(reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
decimal places for cubic metres.

The electric kettle automatically switches off once the water is boiling
whereas gas requires intervention so if you are not standing over it you
may incur extra costs.

I came to the conclusion not worth the hassle trying to save a penny a
day making cups of coffee or tea so I've stuck with the electric kettle.

Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
light comes on.

For washing up you may be able to use cold water and detergent for items
that are not greasy.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Question about energy cost

<6icn6hd099j4679aqhiv4iipi60r8koon0@4ax.com>

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:42:04 +0100
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 by: Scott - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:42 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>>
>> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
>> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>
>
>Gas or electric to heat the kettle?

Electricity, but I could use gas.
>
>As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
>standing charge even if you are not using any gas

This is true, but the same applies to electricity.
>
>A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>
>I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>Microwave = 5p
>Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>Electric kettle = 5.4p

This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
asking about.
>
>Notes:
>My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
>microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
>so an extra cost for the fan.
>
>The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
>display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
>be reflected in it's accuracy.
>
>The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
>(reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
>decimal places for cubic metres.
>
>The electric kettle automatically switches off once the water is boiling
>whereas gas requires intervention so if you are not standing over it you
>may incur extra costs.
>
>I came to the conclusion not worth the hassle trying to save a penny a
>day making cups of coffee or tea so I've stuck with the electric kettle.
>
>Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
>should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
>shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
>light comes on.
>
>For washing up you may be able to use cold water and detergent for items
>that are not greasy.

Re: Question about energy cost

<t4gdbc$ft8$1@dont-email.me>

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:06:36 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:06 UTC

On 29 Apr 2022 at 10:42:04 BST, "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> snip
>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>
> This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
> tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
> reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
> asking about.

If you're on a water meter, the c.1p litre will soon start to add up if you're
drawing say 5 litres of water several times a day just to get to the hot water
and wash your hands . . .

I tend to use the electric shower over the bath for a quick wash. I've a combi
boiler and small amounts of hot water - even with the preheat - is the single
worst part of it. Baths and showers are great though.

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Question about energy cost

<vlen6h1albl4t9baho92tp55o4b9asj84e@4ax.com>

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:17:14 +0100
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 by: Scott - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:17 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:06:36 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
wrote:

>On 29 Apr 2022 at 10:42:04 BST, "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> snip
>>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>>
>>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>>> Microwave = 5p
>>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>
>> This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
>> tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
>> reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
>> asking about.
>
>If you're on a water meter, the c.1p litre will soon start to add up if you're
>drawing say 5 litres of water several times a day just to get to the hot water
>and wash your hands . . .

We are not on a water meter (Scotland). My question was about the
cost of heating the water, not the cost of the water.
>
>I tend to use the electric shower over the bath for a quick wash. I've a combi
>boiler and small amounts of hot water - even with the preheat - is the single
>worst part of it. Baths and showers are great though.

Re: Question about energy cost

<t4gm6v$l12$1@dont-email.me>

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:37:51 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:37 UTC

On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:17:14 BST, "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:06:36 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 10:42:04 BST, "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> snip
>>>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>>>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>>>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>>>
>>>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>>>> Microwave = 5p
>>>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>>>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>>
>>> This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
>>> tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
>>> reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
>>> asking about.
>>
>> If you're on a water meter, the c.1p litre will soon start to add up if you're
>> drawing say 5 litres of water several times a day just to get to the hot water
>> and wash your hands . . .
>
> We are not on a water meter (Scotland). My question was about the
> cost of heating the water, not the cost of the water.

Ah right, good. You did mention wasting a lot of water and you asked about
efficiency - hence the post.

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Question about energy cost

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Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
From: whisky.d...@gmail.com (whisky-dave)
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 by: whisky-dave - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:21 UTC

On Friday, 29 April 2022 at 10:31:52 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
> > I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
> > breakfast. This got me thinking.
> >
> > I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
> > summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
> > arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
> > efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
> Gas or electric to heat the kettle?
>
> As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
> standing charge even if you are not using any gas
>
> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>
> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
> Microwave = 5p
> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>
> Notes:
> My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
> microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
> so an extra cost for the fan.
>
> The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
> display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
> be reflected in it's accuracy.

it could depend on which one I have a few at hand and a brennstuhl one I've had a few years
gives quite differnt reading from another couple I have tried and bought last year.
I was testing the power consumpion of PCs on standby and thought 17 Watts was quite high
compared to my home iMac which was about 1 watt.
I just happened to bring my meter from home to work and foudn that my one measured about 1 watt for the PCs whereas the work meter
measured it as 17W , so I bought another one for work which was much better and closer to 1 watt than 17W.
I know computers are different in their VAR.

>
> The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
> (reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
> decimal places for cubic metres.
>
> The electric kettle automatically switches off once the water is boiling
> whereas gas requires intervention so if you are not standing over it you
> may incur extra costs.
>
> I came to the conclusion not worth the hassle trying to save a penny a
> day making cups of coffee or tea so I've stuck with the electric kettle.

Pity you didn't quote what time it took to boil too, as I've found microwave oven to be pretty slow
to heat water in any more than a mug full of water. Plus the extra danger where as cup handle also
gets very hot.
Usually I only need to boil a cup full certainly not 3 pints at a time.

>
> Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
> should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
> shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
> light comes on.

I think they are exaggerating these vampire devices as a smokescreen for making huge profits.
Maybe cheap phone chargers might be a few watts. But things like hubs and routers and TiVos might be 5-10 watts
but it's still minimal unless you have dozens running.

>
> For washing up you may be able to use cold water and detergent for items
> that are not greasy.
>
>
> --
> mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Question about energy cost

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:41:11 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:41 UTC

On 29/04/2022 14:21, whisky-dave wrote:

>
> I think they are exaggerating these vampire devices as a smokescreen for making huge profits.
> Maybe cheap phone chargers might be a few watts. But things like hubs and routers and TiVos might be 5-10 watts
> but it's still minimal unless you have dozens running.
>

There is a EU law, which we adopted, that says new electronic equipment
or white goods? now must be < 1W in standby. My PVR has two standby
modes designated standby and deep standby and it's only the latter that
is around 0.5W. It still wakes up from deep standby for a recording.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Question about energy cost

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:05:05 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:05 UTC

On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:

> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>
> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
> Microwave = 5p
> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>
> Notes:
> My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
> microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
> so an extra cost for the fan.
>
> The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
> display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
> be reflected in it's accuracy.
>
> The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
> (reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
> decimal places for cubic metres.

Those figure for microwave and electric kettle heating seem strange
unless the microwave has a power factor which affects the reading of the
power meter. An electric kettle is basically 100% efficient (there will
be mainly convection losses of heat though the kettle body. Is the body
of your kettle metal? That will be the most inefficient on retaining
heat, but a glass or plastic-bodied kettle won't be anywhere near as bad).

According to this "Scientific American" 2009 paper at
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stove-versus-microwave-energy-use/>,
"The magazine’s (Home Energy Magazine) researchers discovered that an
electric burner uses about 25 percent less electricity than a microwave
in boiling a cup of water."

And from a question to
<http://insideenergy.org/2016/02/23/boiling-water-ieq/>

"A microwave is about 50 percent efficient. Most of the energy is lost
in the process of converting electricity to microwaves (which are part
of the electromagnetic spectrum).

An electric stovetop is about 70 percent efficient, although that varies
widely depending on the type of pot or kettle you use. Most of the
energy is lost heating the air around the stove.

An electric teakettle is about 80 percent efficient, although again this
varies from kettle to kettle. Electric kettles are generally very well
insulated, and the heating coils sit directly in the water, so less heat
is lost to the air."

It continued: "Our question asker, Ben, ran a mini-experiment in his own
kitchen. He set up a current-meter on an electric tea kettle, a
microwave, and an induction hot plate and timed how long it took each to
bring 500 mL to a boil. The results came close Williams’ estimates: The
microwave was 34 percent efficient, the electric teakettle 71 percent
efficient, and the induction hotplate 83 percent efficient."

--

Jeff

Re: Question about energy cost

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:22 +0100
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 by: Scott - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:19 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:37:51 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
wrote:

>On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:17:14 BST, "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:06:36 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 10:42:04 BST, "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> snip
>>>>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>>>>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>>>>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>>>>> Microwave = 5p
>>>>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>>>>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>>>
>>>> This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
>>>> tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
>>>> reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
>>>> asking about.
>>>
>>> If you're on a water meter, the c.1p litre will soon start to add up if you're
>>> drawing say 5 litres of water several times a day just to get to the hot water
>>> and wash your hands . . .
>>
>> We are not on a water meter (Scotland). My question was about the
>> cost of heating the water, not the cost of the water.
>
>Ah right, good. You did mention wasting a lot of water and you asked about
>efficiency - hence the post.

Sorry, badly worded on my part. I was using the loss of warm water as
evidence of wasted energy.

Re: Question about energy cost

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:01:19 +0100
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 by: John Rumm - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:01 UTC

On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>> breakfast.  This got me thinking.
>>
>> I have a combi boiler.  I intend to turn the heating off for the
>> summer.  Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas.  Would it be more
>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>
>
> Gas or electric to heat the kettle?
>
> As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
> standing charge even if you are not using any gas
>
> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>
> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
> Microwave = 5p

Transformer based or inverter?

(if that latter, and your power meter is not true RMS that could cause a
low reading)

I am surprised that a microwave would be cheaper than an electric kettle.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: Question about energy cost

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From: kdj...@gmail.com (Jock)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 01:02:37 +1000
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 by: Jock - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:02 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:21:07 +1000, whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Friday, 29 April 2022 at 10:31:52 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
>> On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>> > I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>> > breakfast. This got me thinking.
>> >
>> > I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
>> > summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>> > arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
>> > efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>> Gas or electric to heat the kettle?
>>
>> As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
>> standing charge even if you are not using any gas
>>
>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>
>> Notes:
>> My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
>> microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
>> so an extra cost for the fan.
>>
>> The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
>> display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
>> be reflected in it's accuracy.
>
> it could depend on which one I have a few at hand and a brennstuhl one
> I've had a few years
> gives quite differnt reading from another couple I have tried and bought
> last year.
> I was testing the power consumpion of PCs on standby and thought 17
> Watts was quite high
> compared to my home iMac which was about 1 watt.
> I just happened to bring my meter from home to work and foudn that my
> one measured about 1 watt for the PCs whereas the work meter
> measured it as 17W , so I bought another one for work which was much
> better and closer to 1 watt than 17W.
> I know computers are different in their VAR.
>
>>
>> The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
>> (reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
>> decimal places for cubic metres.
>>
>> The electric kettle automatically switches off once the water is boiling
>> whereas gas requires intervention so if you are not standing over it you
>> may incur extra costs.
>>
>> I came to the conclusion not worth the hassle trying to save a penny a
>> day making cups of coffee or tea so I've stuck with the electric kettle.
>
> Pity you didn't quote what time it took to boil too, as I've found
> microwave oven to be pretty slow
> to heat water in any more than a mug full of water.

> Plus the extra danger where as cup handle also
> gets very hot.

I don't get that with my mugs and always use the microwave.

> Usually I only need to boil a cup full certainly not 3 pints at a time.

>> Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
>> should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
>> shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
>> light comes on.
>
> I think they are exaggerating these vampire devices as a smokescreen for
> making huge profits.
> Maybe cheap phone chargers might be a few watts. But things like hubs
> and routers and TiVos might be 5-10 watts
> but it's still minimal unless you have dozens running.
>
>>
>> For washing up you may be able to use cold water and detergent for items
>> that are not greasy.

Re: Question about energy cost

<op.1ld7zmbmc5duzs@pvr2.lan>

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From: kdj...@gmail.com (Jock)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 01:29:36 +1000
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 by: Jock - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:29 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 01:01:19 +1000, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

> On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
>> On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>>> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>>>
>>> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
>>> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
>>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>> Gas or electric to heat the kettle?
>> As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
>> standing charge even if you are not using any gas
>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>
> Transformer based or inverter?
>
> (if that latter, and your power meter is not true RMS that could cause a
> low reading)
>
> I am surprised that a microwave would be cheaper than an electric kettle.

The reason for that in the real world is that when you are producing
a single cup full of hot water, there is no wasted hot water with the
microwave, but is maybe even a couple of cups of hot water wasted
with an electric kettle because of how the element is done.

Alan's test with 3 pints isn't a good measure with a cup of hot water.

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Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
From: whisky.d...@gmail.com (whisky-dave)
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 by: whisky-dave - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:33 UTC

On Friday, 29 April 2022 at 14:41:15 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 14:21, whisky-dave wrote:
>
> >
> > I think they are exaggerating these vampire devices as a smokescreen for making huge profits.
> > Maybe cheap phone chargers might be a few watts. But things like hubs and routers and TiVos might be 5-10 watts
> > but it's still minimal unless you have dozens running.
> >
> There is a EU law, which we adopted, that says new electronic equipment
> or white goods? now must be < 1W in standby. My PVR has two standby
> modes designated standby and deep standby and it's only the latter that
> is around 0.5W. It still wakes up from deep standby for a recording.

That's sort of what I was suggesting my Tivo, TV and hub/router are all on the same extention block
and at worst it''s probably 5W but not easy to measure, my 27" iMac flickers bewteen 0, 1,2, watts
So I don;t think modern devices on standby or sleep will make much differnce if unplugged
Think I'm more likely to strain my back bending down to unplug them. .

But here in my lab there are 100 PCs, which is why we bought two new power meters, depending on which one we used
on a 24" dell PC 7460 AIO
when in sleep mode 7-21W : 0-2W : 0-5W watching the display for about 10 seconds.
shutdown 7-12W : 0W : 0W
with login window prompt 38-41W : 36-46W : 34-37W
which are on 24/7 (even though no on uses them after 6pm or before 9am, or sat and sun)
Presently they can't be put into sleep mode either and are left in login window mode
So if I were paying the electric bill for the lab I'd unplug all the PCS.
well actually I'd hit the emergency breaker cut out power for the whole lab, which is what we do over the christmas holidays.

> --
> mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
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Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
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 by: alan_m - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:28 UTC

On 29/04/2022 15:05, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
>
>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>
>> Notes:
>> My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
>> microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
>> so an extra cost for the fan.
>>
>> The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
>> display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
>> be reflected in it's accuracy.
>>
>> The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
>> (reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
>> decimal places for cubic metres.
>
> Those figure for microwave and electric kettle heating seem strange
> unless the microwave has a power factor which affects the reading of the
> power meter. An electric kettle is basically 100% efficient (there will
> be mainly convection losses of heat though the kettle body. Is the body
> of your kettle metal? That will be the most inefficient on retaining
> heat, but a glass or plastic-bodied kettle won't be anywhere near as bad).

You are correct. I've just repeated the microwave and kettle tests. The
electric kettle results are similar to before but I must have misread or
done something else wrong with the microwave.

Plastic walled kettle 3 pints or 1.7l = 0.190 kWh (14C to 100C)

Microwave 0.400 kWh taking a few seconds under 20 minutes to heat 14C to
98C. Both fan and light were on 38W for 20 minutes. Both were heating
the oven cavity but the fan was blowing air around the cavity and around
the open toped glass container.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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 by: Max Demian - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:09 UTC

On 29/04/2022 14:41, alan_m wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 14:21, whisky-dave wrote:

>> I think they are exaggerating these vampire devices as a smokescreen
>> for making huge profits.
>> Maybe cheap phone chargers might be a few watts. But things like hubs
>> and routers and TiVos might be 5-10 watts
>> but it's still minimal unless you have dozens running.

> There  is a EU law, which we adopted, that says new electronic equipment
> or white goods? now must be < 1W in standby. My PVR has two standby
> modes designated standby and deep standby and it's only the latter that
> is around 0.5W. It still wakes up from deep standby for a recording.

Those "deep" standby modes are often unusable as they don't pass the
aerial signal through to the next device in the chain. Unless you have
such a strong signal you can use a passive splitter.

--
Max Demian

Re: Question about energy cost

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From: giraffen...@homecall.co.uk (PeterC)
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 by: PeterC - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 20:55 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m wrote:

> Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
> should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
> shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
> light comes on.

Mine has a clock and is about 10W, but there's an 'eco' button that turns
off the clock and then there's no detectable W or VA.
I've 2 clocks in the kitchen each of which will run for over a years on an
AA cell - I don't need a 10W one.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

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 by: Steve Walker - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 21:18 UTC

On 29/04/2022 14:21, whisky-dave wrote:
> On Friday, 29 April 2022 at 10:31:52 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
>> On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>>> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>>>
>>> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
>>> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
>>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>> Gas or electric to heat the kettle?
>>
>> As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
>> standing charge even if you are not using any gas
>>
>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>
>> Notes:
>> My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
>> microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
>> so an extra cost for the fan.
>>
>> The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
>> display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
>> be reflected in it's accuracy.
>
> it could depend on which one I have a few at hand and a brennstuhl one I've had a few years
> gives quite differnt reading from another couple I have tried and bought last year.
> I was testing the power consumpion of PCs on standby and thought 17 Watts was quite high
> compared to my home iMac which was about 1 watt.
> I just happened to bring my meter from home to work and foudn that my one measured about 1 watt for the PCs whereas the work meter
> measured it as 17W , so I bought another one for work which was much better and closer to 1 watt than 17W.
> I know computers are different in their VAR.
>
>>
>> The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
>> (reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
>> decimal places for cubic metres.
>>
>> The electric kettle automatically switches off once the water is boiling
>> whereas gas requires intervention so if you are not standing over it you
>> may incur extra costs.
>>
>> I came to the conclusion not worth the hassle trying to save a penny a
>> day making cups of coffee or tea so I've stuck with the electric kettle.
>
> Pity you didn't quote what time it took to boil too, as I've found microwave oven to be pretty slow
> to heat water in any more than a mug full of water. Plus the extra danger where as cup handle also
> gets very hot.
> Usually I only need to boil a cup full certainly not 3 pints at a time.
>
>>
>> Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
>> should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
>> shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
>> light comes on.
>
> I think they are exaggerating these vampire devices as a smokescreen for making huge profits.
> Maybe cheap phone chargers might be a few watts. But things like hubs and routers and TiVos might be 5-10 watts
> but it's still minimal unless you have dozens running.

The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.

Re: Question about energy cost

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:54:20 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 06:54 UTC

On 29/04/2022 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:

>
> The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
> leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
> but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
> day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
> with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
> socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.
>

But British Gas "research" says £24.61 for the TV! However, their
figures have been heavily criticised as the 2013 EU legislation requires
less than 0.5W in standby giving an annual cost of around £1.30.

Its a similar story with their other equipment figures and their well
publicised vampire annual costs of £147 may also be 20x too high.

Much better to get a smart meter* and achieve those massive savings
promised in the early adverts :)

*Since the demise of Avro I'm now with Octopus and they appear to be
having trouble changing the displayed tariff for the remote smart meter
display module (and presumably the calculated ongoing usage costs). It
appears that customers are on either on one of two update methods and
one method isn't working, and they are aware of the problem. So much for
the benefits of smart meter in monitoring the usage costs :)
It doesn't bother me because I'm aware of the problem but I do wonder if
those with fuel poverty are being mislead by the smart meter still
programmed with pre-April tariff information.
Note: My smart meters have been installed since being moved to Octopus.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
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Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:56:37 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 06:56 UTC

In message <jd1pk4F7l4cU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:31:48 on Fri, 29
Apr 2022, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
>should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
>shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
>light comes on.

The issue of "Vampire devices" - although I think that catchy name is
fairly new - crops up regularly. And is often bad science. For example
mobile phone chargers which might have consumed energy 20yrs ago when a
transformer in a wall-wart, are unlikely to use any significant power
when using switched mode technology.

Of course, if they did, then every one of those 13A outlets with a pair
of USB charging sockets would be vampires. But they re completely cold
to the touch.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Question about energy cost

<1169798477.672996283.277293.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>

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From: tim.dow...@gmail.com (Tim+)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: 30 Apr 2022 07:28:08 GMT
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 by: Tim+ - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:28 UTC

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>
> *Since the demise of Avro I'm now with Octopus and they appear to be
> having trouble changing the displayed tariff for the remote smart meter
> display module (and presumably the calculated ongoing usage costs). It
> appears that customers are on either on one of two update methods and
> one method isn't working, and they are aware of the problem. So much for
> the benefits of smart meter in monitoring the usage costs :)

Mine IHD has never shown costs accurately but it does show real-time
consumption so it’s still useful as a guide to what you’re using at any
moment.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Re: Question about energy cost

<gbrp6hpf6n1qsrbve53r1pr00ijhkcvjdq@4ax.com>

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:05:53 +0100
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 by: Scott - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 08:05 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:18:04 +0100, Steve Walker
<steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
[snip]

>The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
>leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
>but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
>day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
>with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
>socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.

There are some interesting ideas out there. Friend of mine is now
using a battery powered radio to save cost of mains electricity.

Re: Question about energy cost

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:36:54 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 08:36 UTC

On 30/04/2022 09:05, Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:18:04 +0100, Steve Walker
> <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
>> leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
>> but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
>> day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
>> with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
>> socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.
>
> There are some interesting ideas out there. Friend of mine is now
> using a battery powered radio to save cost of mains electricity.

:) :)

If the idea came from facebook it must be true.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Question about energy cost

<59e12bd3b6charles@candehope.me.uk>

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From: char...@candehope.me.uk (charles)
Subject: Re: Question about energy cost
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 10:05:51 +0100
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 by: charles - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:05 UTC

In article <gbrp6hpf6n1qsrbve53r1pr00ijhkcvjdq@4ax.com>,
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:18:04 +0100, Steve Walker
> <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> [snip]

> >The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
> >leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
> >but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
> >day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
> >with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
> >socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.

> There are some interesting ideas out there. Friend of mine is now
> using a battery powered radio to save cost of mains electricity.

Have they costed the battries? It used to be 10x mains, perhaps 5 times as
much now.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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