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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

SubjectAuthor
* Messing about with a DIY TDRJohn Rumm
+* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRCursitor Doom
|+* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRJohn Rumm
||`- Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRCursitor Doom
|`- Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRThe Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRwilliamwright
|`* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRJohn Rumm
| `* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRCursitor Doom
|  +- Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRThe Natural Philosopher
|  `- Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRJohn Rumm
`* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRAndy Bennet
 `* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRJohn Rumm
  `* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRAndy Burns
   +* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRRobin
   |`- Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRSH
   +- Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRAndy Bennet
   +- Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRJohn Rumm
   `* Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRThe Natural Philosopher
    `- Re: Messing about with a DIY TDRCursitor Doom

1
Messing about with a DIY TDR

<t4jsd1$fn0$1@dont-email.me>

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:41:53 +0100
Organization: Internode Ltd
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 by: John Rumm - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 17:41 UTC

This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
depending on what you want from it!)

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables

Suggestions / improvements etc?

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: cd...@notformail.com (Cursitor Doom)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sun, 01 May 2022 13:21:53 +0100
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 by: Cursitor Doom - Sun, 1 May 2022 12:21 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:41:53 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
>depending on what you want from it!)
>
>http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>
>Suggestions / improvements etc?

Why bother building one? I got one of these from Leo Bodnar. Only 60
quid!

https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=295

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 15:26:07 +0100
Organization: Internode Ltd
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 by: John Rumm - Sun, 1 May 2022 14:26 UTC

On 01/05/2022 13:21, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:41:53 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
>> depending on what you want from it!)
>>
>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>>
>> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>
> Why bother building one?

Erm, you do know what the DIY stands for in the group title? :-)

How about for fun, entertainment, experimentation, discovery, curiosity etc?

Also you are perhaps missing one of the points of the article, since it
is also about techniques for finding where a cable might be damaged
using a number of different methods including TDR.

Although perhaps it would be better as two separate articles, and/or
expand the applications... perhaps include things like finding
waterlogged coax. You might even be able to identify which sockets on a
ring have spurs just from the cable ends at the CU.

(It might be worth gating off the output to convert it into a true pulse
gen rather than and edge for some of these applications though)

> I got one of these from Leo Bodnar. Only 60
> quid!

Mine worked out about £13 in parts if I had to go buy them all (and that
includes the case, switch and PSU). Factor in some time for making it,
probably still a bit cheaper.

However if I needed commercially, then £60 is probably fair. (although
splashing £1000 on a Megger TDR500/3 would probably be a more useful
purchase for site work).

> https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=295

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 16:31:35 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Sun, 1 May 2022 15:31 UTC

On 30/04/2022 18:41, John Rumm wrote:
> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
> depending on what you want from it!)
>
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>
> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>
>
In the 'nail through TV cable' scenario, it's possible (perhaps
surprisingly) to get a good estimate of the position of the damage by
measuring the resistance across the inner core and screen at both ends.
I used a normal (£70 approx) multimeter for this many times when I was
installing RF systems using the builder's built-in cables.
Bill

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: cd...@notformail.com (Cursitor Doom)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sun, 01 May 2022 17:43:50 +0100
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 by: Cursitor Doom - Sun, 1 May 2022 16:43 UTC

On Sun, 1 May 2022 15:26:07 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 01/05/2022 13:21, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:41:53 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
>>> depending on what you want from it!)
>>>
>>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>>>
>>> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>>
>> Why bother building one?
>
>Erm, you do know what the DIY stands for in the group title? :-)
>
>How about for fun, entertainment, experimentation, discovery, curiosity etc?

It's a fair cop, guv, get the bracelets on I'll come quietly.

>Mine worked out about £13 in parts if I had to go buy them all (and that
>includes the case, switch and PSU). Factor in some time for making it,
>probably still a bit cheaper.

Depends how handy you are with a soldering iron I guess. I'm not up to
much when it comes to fine motor skills. Plus at my time of life I
can't be faffing around any more so buying ready-made makes more
sense. Might wake up dead tomorrow!

>
>However if I needed commercially, then £60 is probably fair. (although
>splashing £1000 on a Megger TDR500/3 would probably be a more useful
>purchase for site work).
>
>> https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=295

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 19:23:07 +0100
Organization: Internode Ltd
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 by: John Rumm - Sun, 1 May 2022 18:23 UTC

On 01/05/2022 16:31, williamwright wrote:
> On 30/04/2022 18:41, John Rumm wrote:
>> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
>> depending on what you want from it!)
>>
>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>>
>> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>>
>>
> In the 'nail through TV cable' scenario, it's possible (perhaps
> surprisingly) to get a good estimate of the position of the damage by
> measuring the resistance across the inner core and screen at both ends.
> I used a normal (£70 approx) multimeter for this many times when I was
> installing RF systems using the builder's built-in cables.

Yup resistance readings with enough resolution can find quite a number
of faults IME.

I just tried an experiment with a length of old "low loss" co-ax. I was
wondering if there would be enough detail to see the effects of a cable
kink or crushed section... Apparently not appears to be the answer.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: cd...@notformail.com (Cursitor Doom)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sun, 01 May 2022 22:22:48 +0100
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 by: Cursitor Doom - Sun, 1 May 2022 21:22 UTC

On Sun, 1 May 2022 19:23:07 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 01/05/2022 16:31, williamwright wrote:
>> On 30/04/2022 18:41, John Rumm wrote:
>>> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
>>> depending on what you want from it!)
>>>
>>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>>>
>>> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>>>
>>>
>> In the 'nail through TV cable' scenario, it's possible (perhaps
>> surprisingly) to get a good estimate of the position of the damage by
>> measuring the resistance across the inner core and screen at both ends.
>> I used a normal (£70 approx) multimeter for this many times when I was
>> installing RF systems using the builder's built-in cables.
>
>Yup resistance readings with enough resolution can find quite a number
>of faults IME.
>
>I just tried an experiment with a length of old "low loss" co-ax. I was
>wondering if there would be enough detail to see the effects of a cable
>kink or crushed section... Apparently not appears to be the answer.

A kink would create a zone of impedance which differs from that of the
characteristic impedance of the coax. You won't detect that with a
resistance check. You'd have to somehow marry up a TDR with a VNA for
that. Not something I personally would want to have to devise.

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 22:52:21 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 1 May 2022 21:52 UTC

On 01/05/2022 22:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> You'd have to somehow marry up a TDR with a VNA for
> that. Not something I personally would want to have to devise.

Pulse generator and a two channel scope will see the reflections if fast
enough

delay is a ns for every 8" of cable

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 23:09:26 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 1 May 2022 22:09 UTC

On 01/05/2022 13:21, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:41:53 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
>> depending on what you want from it!)
>>
>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>>
>> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>
> Why bother building one? I got one of these from Leo Bodnar. Only 60
> quid!
>
> https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=295

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1gfUNh5PJQ
for how to build and use one

--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 02:28:20 +0100
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 by: John Rumm - Mon, 2 May 2022 01:28 UTC

On 01/05/2022 22:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Sun, 1 May 2022 19:23:07 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 01/05/2022 16:31, williamwright wrote:
>>> On 30/04/2022 18:41, John Rumm wrote:
>>>> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
>>>> depending on what you want from it!)
>>>>
>>>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>>>>
>>>> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> In the 'nail through TV cable' scenario, it's possible (perhaps
>>> surprisingly) to get a good estimate of the position of the damage by
>>> measuring the resistance across the inner core and screen at both ends.
>>> I used a normal (£70 approx) multimeter for this many times when I was
>>> installing RF systems using the builder's built-in cables.
>>
>> Yup resistance readings with enough resolution can find quite a number
>> of faults IME.
>>
>> I just tried an experiment with a length of old "low loss" co-ax. I was
>> wondering if there would be enough detail to see the effects of a cable
>> kink or crushed section... Apparently not appears to be the answer.
>
> A kink would create a zone of impedance which differs from that of the
> characteristic impedance of the coax. You won't detect that with a
> resistance check.

I was not doing a resistance check, I was looking at the reflection
characteristic with the pulse injector.

> You'd have to somehow marry up a TDR with a VNA for
> that. Not something I personally would want to have to devise.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

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From: abe...@benj.com (Andy Bennet)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 07:55:26 +0100
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 by: Andy Bennet - Mon, 2 May 2022 06:55 UTC

On 30/04/2022 18:41, John Rumm wrote:
> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
> depending on what you want from it!)
>
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>
> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>
>

Second picture up from bottom text at end contains confusing
exponentiation...

"So if we multiply c by 12.9-9 Sec and by a velocity factor of 0.6"

12.9e-9 makes more sense, or 12x10^-9.

Andy

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 13:01:22 +0100
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 by: John Rumm - Mon, 2 May 2022 12:01 UTC

On 02/05/2022 07:55, Andy Bennet wrote:
> On 30/04/2022 18:41, John Rumm wrote:
>> This probably needs a better title (and possibly more or less detail
>> depending on what you want from it!)
>>
>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Finding_damaged_cables
>>
>> Suggestions / improvements etc?
>>
>>
>
> Second picture up from bottom text at end contains confusing
> exponentiation...
>
> "So if we multiply c by 12.9-9 Sec and by a velocity factor of 0.6"
>
> 12.9e-9 makes more sense, or 12x10^-9.

I stared at that for a while thinking "that exponent is being rendered
ok as a superscript on my browser"... completely missing the missing
base! :-)

Thanks, fixed.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
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 by: Andy Burns - Mon, 2 May 2022 13:17 UTC

John Rumm wrote:

> Andy Bennet wrote:
>
>> 12x10^-9.
>
> I stared at that for a while thinking "that exponent is being rendered ok as a
> superscript on my browser"... completely missing the missing base!

Shouldn't it be 1.2x10^-10 ?

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: rbw...@outlook.com (Robin)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
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 by: Robin - Mon, 2 May 2022 14:40 UTC

On 02/05/2022 14:17, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> Andy Bennet wrote:
>>
>>> 12x10^-9.
>>
>> I stared at that for a while thinking "that exponent is being rendered
>> ok as a superscript on my browser"... completely missing the missing
>> base!
>
> Shouldn't it be 1.2x10^-10 ?

engineering notation?

Despite my quondam physics ambitions I think there's much to be said for
it in contexts like this. I cd still blind read the former as 12 ns
without hesitation. I'd pause over the latter.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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 by: Andy Bennet - Mon, 2 May 2022 15:54 UTC

On 02/05/2022 14:17, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> Andy Bennet wrote:
>>
>>> 12x10^-9.
>>
>> I stared at that for a while thinking "that exponent is being rendered
>> ok as a superscript on my browser"... completely missing the missing
>> base!
>
> Shouldn't it be 1.2x10^-10 ?

Measuring things in dns (deca nano seconds) sounds just plain weird
engineering wise in the SI system!

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
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Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
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 by: John Rumm - Mon, 2 May 2022 18:11 UTC

On 02/05/2022 14:17, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> Andy Bennet wrote:
>>
>>> 12x10^-9.
>>
>> I stared at that for a while thinking "that exponent is being rendered
>> ok as a superscript on my browser"... completely missing the missing
>> base!
>
> Shouldn't it be 1.2x10^-10 ?

Probably 1.29x10^-10 if one were being pedantic :-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 19:29:55 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Mon, 2 May 2022 18:29 UTC

On 02/05/2022 14:17, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> Andy Bennet wrote:
>>
>>> 12x10^-9.
>>
>> I stared at that for a while thinking "that exponent is being rendered
>> ok as a superscript on my browser"... completely missing the missing
>> base!
>
> Shouldn't it be 1.2x10^-10 ?

Try 1.2 x 10^-8, if you must be pedantic,and try and get it right..

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR

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From: cd...@notformail.com (Cursitor Doom)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Messing about with a DIY TDR
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 by: Cursitor Doom - Mon, 2 May 2022 19:28 UTC

On Mon, 2 May 2022 19:29:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 02/05/2022 14:17, Andy Burns wrote:
>> John Rumm wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Bennet wrote:
>>>
>>>> 12x10^-9.
>>>
>>> I stared at that for a while thinking "that exponent is being rendered
>>> ok as a superscript on my browser"... completely missing the missing
>>> base!
>>
>> Shouldn't it be 1.2x10^-10 ?
>
>Try 1.2 x 10^-8, if you must be pedantic,and try and get it right..

Not a recognised format in electronics, though. The power has gotta be
-3, -6, -9, -12 and so on for milli, micro, nano, pico etc.

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 by: SH - Mon, 2 May 2022 20:06 UTC

On 02/05/2022 15:40, Robin wrote:
> On 02/05/2022 14:17, Andy Burns wrote:
>> John Rumm wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Bennet wrote:
>>>
>>>> 12x10^-9.
>>>
>>> I stared at that for a while thinking "that exponent is being
>>> rendered ok as a superscript on my browser"... completely missing the
>>> missing base!
>>
>> Shouldn't it be 1.2x10^-10 ?
>
> engineering notation?
>
> Despite my quondam physics ambitions I think there's much to be said for
> it in contexts like this.  I cd still blind read the former as 12 ns
> without hesitation.  I'd pause over the latter.
>

I would read it as 1.2 angstrom seconds :-D

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