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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

SubjectAuthor
* FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterBrian
|`- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterDave Plowman (News)
|+- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterbert
|`- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
|`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
| +* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| |`* Re: FM-Dab aerial convertercharles
| | `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| +* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterTim Streater
| |+* Re: FM-Dab aerial convertercharles
| ||+- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterAndrew
| ||+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterDave Plowman (News)
| |||`* Re: FM-Dab aerial convertercharles
| ||| `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterDave Plowman (News)
| |||  `* Re: FM-Dab aerial convertercharles
| |||   `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| ||`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterMartin Brown
| || +- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| || +* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterMark Carver
| || |`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterAndrew
| || | `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterMark Carver
| || `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterAndrew
| |+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
| ||+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterTim Streater
| |||+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterJock
| ||||+- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterTim Streater
| ||||`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterMartin Brown
| |||| `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterJock
| |||+- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| |||+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| ||||`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRod Speed
| |||| `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| ||||  `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRod Speed
| ||||   `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| ||||    `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRod Speed
| ||||     `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| ||||      `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRod Speed
| |||`- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
| ||`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| || `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
| ||  `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| |+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterThe Natural Philosopher
| ||+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterTim Streater
| |||`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| ||| +* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterTim Streater
| ||| |`- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| ||| `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterMark Carver
| |||  `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| ||`- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| |`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
| | +* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterThe Natural Philosopher
| | |+* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
| | ||+- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterDave Plowman (News)
| | ||`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| | || `* Re: FM-Dab aerial convertercharles
| | ||  +* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterDave Plowman (News)
| | ||  |`- Re: FM-Dab aerial convertercharles
| | ||  `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| | |`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| | | `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterPaul
| | `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
| `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterDave Plowman (News)
|  `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
`* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
 `* Re: FM-Dab aerial converterMartin Brown
  +- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterRJH
  +- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
  +- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterwilliamwright
  `- Re: FM-Dab aerial converterDave Plowman (News)

Pages:123
Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

<jdlv5qF3dd7U2@mid.individual.net>

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 02:09:15 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <jdl3enFsv0rU1@mid.individual.net>
 by: williamwright - Sat, 7 May 2022 01:09 UTC

On 06/05/2022 18:16, Tim Streater wrote:

> I expect tunable aerials exist but they would require motors etc to move the
> bits around. I imagine that what they do on radio telescopes.
>

Most radio telescopes are parabolic dishes, to which the concept of
tuning doesn't really apply.

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

<jdlvf5F3dd7U3@mid.individual.net>

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 02:14:14 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Sat, 7 May 2022 01:14 UTC

On 06/05/2022 18:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> At that frequency a quarter wave is under a foot long

Yes, I made a DAB quarter-wave a few weeks ago and I double checked the
calculation. It's about a foot in fact.

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 02:20:05 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Sat, 7 May 2022 01:20 UTC

On 06/05/2022 19:00, Tim Streater wrote:
> Sure but I assume a multi-element aerial tuned for the frequency band will
> give a better result. And pointing at the transmitter.

Yes it would. But a six element yagi aerial for 200MHz would be
impractical on a car. It would be too large and would need constant
realignment. The gain would only be about 8dB at most if the aerial was
cut for just the upper half of the DAB band. If it were cut for the
whole band the gain and directivity would be poor.

Some DAB is transmitted using a single frequency network (SFN) which
would make the use of a directional aerial problematic.

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 12:50:42 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Sat, 7 May 2022 02:50 UTC

williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote
> Tim Streater wrote

>> I expect tunable aerials exist but they would require motors etc to
>> move the bits around. I imagine that what they do on radio telescopes.

> Most radio telescopes are parabolic dishes,

All of them are.

> to which the concept of tuning doesn't really apply.

Doesn't apply at all in fact.

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 07:06:54 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:06 UTC

On 7 May 2022 at 02:02:24 BST, "williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

> On 06/05/2022 17:25, RJH wrote:
>> In a way that makes the FM aerial suitable for DAB.
>
> No, not possible. It can't alter the resonance of the aerial, and it's
> at the wrong end of the cable to correct the matching (because an
> end-fed quarter wave 100MHz whip is after all an end-fed half-wave whip
> at 200MHz, so it's more-or-less resonant but doesn't match the 50ohm
> feeder very well because the characteristic impedance is in the
> thousands of ohms).

Ah OK, thanks.

I suppose I was confused by the fact that DAB portables have what *appear* to
be ordinary wire or telescopic aerials, but in fact they have a particular
resonance. And that resonance coincidentally works for FM, but not the other
way round.

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 07:10:21 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:10 UTC

On 6 May 2022 at 15:41:01 BST, "Tim Streater" <timstreater@greenbee.net>
wrote:

> On 05 May 2022 at 20:39:47 BST, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>>
>
>> It does seem odd to me that existing FM aerials can't be used, given all of my
>> DAB portables seem to work with either a dangling wire or unextended
>> telescopic aerial.
>
> Wrong frequency band, I would have said. An FM aerial (on a rooftop at least)
> is tuned to pick up from 88-105MHz or so, DAB seems to be 170-240MHz or so. A
> bit of wire is not, of course, tuned vey well.

How is it, then, that my clock radio works perfectly well? (it has a piece of
trailing wire).

If you read Bill's post further down you'll find the explanation.
--
Cheers, Rob

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 07:12:20 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:12 UTC

On 6 May 2022 at 18:09:57 BST, ""Dave Plowman" <News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk>
wrote:

> In article <t51963$ln6$1@dont-email.me>,
> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>
>> It does seem odd to me that existing FM aerials can't be used, given all
>> of my DAB portables seem to work with either a dangling wire or
>> unextended telescopic aerial.
>
> The passive convertor I bought to parallel the FM and DAB inputs to the
> original telescopic aerial did work. Just not well enough.
>>>

Thanks - I think I'll give it a try, not much to lose.

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 07:17:34 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:17 UTC

On 6 May 2022 at 18:16:08 BST, "Tim Streater" <timstreater@greenbee.net>
wrote:

> On 06 May 2022 at 17:25:31 BST, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> On 6 May 2022 at 15:41:01 BST, "Tim Streater" <timstreater@greenbee.net>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Wrong frequency band, I would have said. An FM aerial (on a rooftop at least)
>>> is tuned to pick up from 88-105MHz or so, DAB seems to be 170-240MHz or so. A
>>> bit of wire is not, of course, tuned vey well.
>>
>> If so, why can't there be some manner of thing that enables that, rather than
>> have to install a completely new assembly?
>
> You could remove the FM aerial from your roof and rebuild it by hand, I
> suppose.
>
>> Or maybe the DAB radio unit 'calls' for the required frequency?
>
> What does this mean?
>

The DAB tradio unit means the tuner itself = the bit that sits in the
dashboard and you control with your hand, voice etc. 'Calls for the required
frequency' means only allows the required frequency as an input. You'd need to
read your own post (above), plus the post you cut, to understand what that
means in context.

> I expect tunable aerials exist but they would require motors etc to move the
> bits around. I imagine that what they do on radio telescopes.

OK.
--
Cheers, Rob

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: timstrea...@greenbee.net (Tim Streater)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: 7 May 2022 07:30:57 GMT
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 by: Tim Streater - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:30 UTC

On 07 May 2022 at 02:20:05 BST, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

> On 06/05/2022 19:00, Tim Streater wrote:
>> Sure but I assume a multi-element aerial tuned for the frequency band will
>> give a better result. And pointing at the transmitter.
>
> Yes it would. But a six element yagi aerial for 200MHz would be
> impractical on a car.

I was talking about fixed installations as I mentioned in a prvious post.

--
When it becomes serious, you have to lie.

Jean-Claude Juncker, Reuters 31st May 2013.

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

<t55e0t$et2$4@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:26:53 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 7 May 2022 09:26 UTC

On 07/05/2022 08:10, RJH wrote:
> On 6 May 2022 at 15:41:01 BST, "Tim Streater" <timstreater@greenbee.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 05 May 2022 at 20:39:47 BST, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> It does seem odd to me that existing FM aerials can't be used, given all of my
>>> DAB portables seem to work with either a dangling wire or unextended
>>> telescopic aerial.
>>
>> Wrong frequency band, I would have said. An FM aerial (on a rooftop at least)
>> is tuned to pick up from 88-105MHz or so, DAB seems to be 170-240MHz or so. A
>> bit of wire is not, of course, tuned vey well.
>
> How is it, then, that my clock radio works perfectly well? (it has a piece of
> trailing wire).
>
All pieces of wire pick up all signals. It is merely a question of how well.

> If you read Bill's post further down you'll find the explanation.

--
ā€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.ā€

Thomas Sowell

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

<59e4cc5e09dave@davenoise.co.uk>

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From: dav...@davenoise.co.uk (Dave Plowman (News))
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 11:08:01 +0100
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Sat, 7 May 2022 10:08 UTC

In article <59e471d0fbcharles@candehope.me.uk>,
charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <59e46f5b0edave@davenoise.co.uk>,
> Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <59e463c838charles@candehope.me.uk>,
> > charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <jdkqbtFr90fU1@mid.individual.net>, Tim Streater
> > > <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > > > On 05 May 2022 at 20:39:47 BST, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

> > > > > On 3 May 2022 at 20:49:28 BST, "williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On 03/05/2022 08:10, RJH wrote:
> > > > >>> Anybody had any success with one of these? -
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002430541537.html
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 'Conversion Cable DAB+ Antenna AM/FM ISO Jack to ISO Male Signal
> > > > >>> Amplifier Radio Antenna Aerial for Car Radio'
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It's just an amplifier.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it though? Does any sort of filtering or stuff happen to make it
> > > > > suitable for DAB?

> > > > Suitable in what way?

> > > > > It does seem odd to me that existing FM aerials can't be used, given
> > > > > all of my DAB portables seem to work with either a dangling wire or
> > > > > unextended telescopic aerial.

> > > > Wrong frequency band, I would have said. An FM aerial (on a rooftop at
> > > > least) is tuned to pick up from 88-105MHz or so, DAB seems to be
> > > > 170-240MHz or so. A bit of wire is not, of course, tuned vey well.

> > > my elderly Band II aerial feeds my DAB tuner with no problems

> > Car radios tend to have separate inputs for DAB and FM aerials.

> so does my hifi unit.

I'd guess that tells you it would work better with the correct aerial,
then?

In this part of London, a TV will work with a bit of wire dangling from
the aerial socket.

But when reception conditions are poor - like they often are in a car - a
decent aerial makes a world of difference.

It can be quite interesting (for a nerd) to have a test route where you
know there are problems. And assess different setups that way.

--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

<59e4cdfb5dcharles@candehope.me.uk>

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From: char...@candehope.me.uk (charles)
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
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 by: charles - Sat, 7 May 2022 10:25 UTC

In article <59e4cc5e09dave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <59e471d0fbcharles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > In article <59e46f5b0edave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
> > <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <59e463c838charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> > > <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > > > In article <jdkqbtFr90fU1@mid.individual.net>, Tim Streater
> > > > <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > > > > On 05 May 2022 at 20:39:47 BST, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

> > > > > > On 3 May 2022 at 20:49:28 BST, "williamwright"
> > > > > > <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On 03/05/2022 08:10, RJH wrote:
> > > > > >>> Anybody had any success with one of these? -
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002430541537.html
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> 'Conversion Cable DAB+ Antenna AM/FM ISO Jack to ISO Male
> > > > > >>> Signal Amplifier Radio Antenna Aerial for Car Radio'
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> It's just an amplifier.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it though? Does any sort of filtering or stuff happen to
> > > > > > make it suitable for DAB?

> > > > > Suitable in what way?

> > > > > > It does seem odd to me that existing FM aerials can't be used,
> > > > > > given all of my DAB portables seem to work with either a
> > > > > > dangling wire or unextended telescopic aerial.

> > > > > Wrong frequency band, I would have said. An FM aerial (on a
> > > > > rooftop at least) is tuned to pick up from 88-105MHz or so, DAB
> > > > > seems to be 170-240MHz or so. A bit of wire is not, of course,
> > > > > tuned vey well.

> > > > my elderly Band II aerial feeds my DAB tuner with no problems

> > > Car radios tend to have separate inputs for DAB and FM aerials.

> > so does my hifi unit.

> I'd guess that tells you it would work better with the correct aerial,
> then?

It's already good - how much better? Trouble is fitting a DAB aerial,
SWMBO doesn't like me working on ladders at any height. so that stops it
being a DIY project

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:42:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Sat, 7 May 2022 10:42 UTC

On 7 May 2022 at 10:26:53 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

> On 07/05/2022 08:10, RJH wrote:
>> On 6 May 2022 at 15:41:01 BST, "Tim Streater" <timstreater@greenbee.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05 May 2022 at 20:39:47 BST, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> It does seem odd to me that existing FM aerials can't be used, given all of my
>>>> DAB portables seem to work with either a dangling wire or unextended
>>>> telescopic aerial.
>>>
>>> Wrong frequency band, I would have said. An FM aerial (on a rooftop at least)
>>> is tuned to pick up from 88-105MHz or so, DAB seems to be 170-240MHz or so. A
>>> bit of wire is not, of course, tuned vey well.
>>
>> How is it, then, that my clock radio works perfectly well? (it has a piece of
>> trailing wire).
>>
> All pieces of wire pick up all signals. It is merely a question of how well.
>

Indeed - which was sort of my original question - would it be 'well enough'
with whatever that thing I linked to is? And the answer is 'probably not'.

The unit's due next week and I've got a lot of long drives coming up, so I'll
lash up something that at least works (it comes with a screen aerial) and take
it from there.

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

<59e4dd6b4bdave@davenoise.co.uk>

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 14:14:16 +0100
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Sat, 7 May 2022 13:14 UTC

In article <t55if3$ioh$1@dont-email.me>,
RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> On 7 May 2022 at 10:26:53 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:

> > On 07/05/2022 08:10, RJH wrote:
> >> On 6 May 2022 at 15:41:01 BST, "Tim Streater" <timstreater@greenbee.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 05 May 2022 at 20:39:47 BST, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>> It does seem odd to me that existing FM aerials can't be used, given all of my
> >>>> DAB portables seem to work with either a dangling wire or unextended
> >>>> telescopic aerial.
> >>>
> >>> Wrong frequency band, I would have said. An FM aerial (on a rooftop at least)
> >>> is tuned to pick up from 88-105MHz or so, DAB seems to be 170-240MHz or so. A
> >>> bit of wire is not, of course, tuned vey well.
> >>
> >> How is it, then, that my clock radio works perfectly well? (it has a piece of
> >> trailing wire).
> >>
> > All pieces of wire pick up all signals. It is merely a question of how well.
> >

> Indeed - which was sort of my original question - would it be 'well
> enough' with whatever that thing I linked to is? And the answer is
> 'probably not'.

> The unit's due next week and I've got a lot of long drives coming up, so
> I'll lash up something that at least works (it comes with a screen
> aerial) and take it from there.

The thing is that even maker's car radio installations vary. Living in
London, I have no trouble finding marginal reception places in a car.
Tunnels, high buildings, etc. And my everyday car which has a windscreen
aerial on FM doesn't perform as well as the old car - with an older radio,
but decent roof aerial. And the old car which has DAB provides even better
reception round London. Hardly a surprise, as that's what DAB was designed
to do.

--
*Windows will never cease *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 03:54:22 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Sun, 8 May 2022 02:54 UTC

>>>>> my elderly Band II aerial feeds my DAB tuner with no problems
>
>>>> Car radios tend to have separate inputs for DAB and FM aerials.
>
>>> so does my hifi unit.
>
>> I'd guess that tells you it would work better with the correct aerial,
>> then?

If Charles receives all the stations he wants with no drop-out, in what
way would it be better?

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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 by: williamwright - Sun, 8 May 2022 03:05 UTC

On 07/05/2022 03:50, Rod Speed wrote:
> williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote
>> Tim Streater wrote
>
>>> I expect tunable aerials exist but they would require motors etc to
>>> move theĀ  bits around. I imagine that what they do on radio telescopes.
>
>> Most radio telescopes are parabolic dishes,
>
> All of them are.

No they aren't. Some are arrays of dipoles. An example is the Murchison
Widefield Array MWA radio telescope.
>
>> to which the concept of tuning doesn't really apply.
>
> Doesn't apply at all in fact.

It does, in that there are parameters that vary with frequency. The gain
and directivity are related to the size as expressed in wavelengths. The
surface, construction, and accuracy of the reflecting dish has to be
appropriate to the frequency received. At one extreme it can be mesh
with quite large apertures. At the other it needs to be totally smooth
with absolutely no deformations.

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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In-Reply-To: <t555qe$tor$1@dont-email.me>
 by: williamwright - Sun, 8 May 2022 03:08 UTC

On 07/05/2022 08:06, RJH wrote:
> I suppose I was confused by the fact that DAB portables have what*appear* to
> be ordinary wire or telescopic aerials, but in fact they have a particular
> resonance. And that resonance coincidentally works for FM, but not the other
> way round.

Take a DAB portable into a big open space where there are no confusing
factors like reflections, standing waves, etc. Find a weak multiplex.
Experiment with the length of the telescopic aerial. You'll be surprised.

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 04:09:18 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Sun, 8 May 2022 03:09 UTC

On 07/05/2022 08:30, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 07 May 2022 at 02:20:05 BST, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
>
>> On 06/05/2022 19:00, Tim Streater wrote:
>>> Sure but I assume a multi-element aerial tuned for the frequency band will
>>> give a better result. And pointing at the transmitter.
>>
>> Yes it would. But a six element yagi aerial for 200MHz would be
>> impractical on a car.
>
> I was talking about fixed installations as I mentioned in a prvious post.
>
I was talking about mobile reception.

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 04:13:26 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <t5560t$val$1@dont-email.me>
 by: williamwright - Sun, 8 May 2022 03:13 UTC

On 07/05/2022 08:10, RJH wrote:
> How is it, then, that my clock radio works perfectly well? (it has a piece of
> trailing wire).
>
> If you read Bill's post further down you'll find the explanation.

Could I add that any old piece of conductive material will work as an
aerial. It's just that unless it's resonant and matches the feeder it
won't work very well (it won't be very sensitive). But if the incoming
signal is so strong that the highly inefficient 'aerial' can still
deliver adequate signal to the receiver it will work just fine.

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
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 by: williamwright - Sun, 8 May 2022 03:14 UTC

On 07/05/2022 10:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>
> All pieces of wire pick up all signals. It is merely a question of how
> well.

Absolutely. And not just pieces of wire.

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
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 by: williamwright - Sun, 8 May 2022 03:18 UTC

On 07/05/2022 11:42, RJH wrote:
> Indeed - which was sort of my original question - would it be 'well enough'
> with whatever that thing I linked to is? And the answer is 'probably not'.
>
> The unit's due next week and I've got a lot of long drives coming up, so I'll
> lash up something that at least works (it comes with a screen aerial) and take
> it from there.

A quarterwave on the roof will outperform a screen aerial massively.
Bear in mind though that the use of the same channel for different muxes
in different (sometimes overlapping) areas is a big factor in limiting
DAB mobile reception.

Bill

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 14:37:02 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Sun, 8 May 2022 04:37 UTC

On Sun, 08 May 2022 13:05:37 +1000, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com>
wrote:

> On 07/05/2022 03:50, Rod Speed wrote:
>> williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote
>>> Tim Streater wrote
>>
>>>> I expect tunable aerials exist but they would require motors etc to
>>>> move the bits around. I imagine that what they do on radio
>>>> telescopes.
>>
>>> Most radio telescopes are parabolic dishes,
>> All of them are.
>
> No they aren't. Some are arrays of dipoles. An example is the Murchison
> Widefield Array MWA radio telescope.
>>
>>> to which the concept of tuning doesn't really apply.
>> Doesn't apply at all in fact.
>
> It does, in that there are parameters that vary with frequency. The gain
> and directivity are related to the size as expressed in wavelengths. The
> surface, construction, and accuracy of the reflecting dish has to be
> appropriate to the frequency received. At one extreme it can be mesh
> with quite large apertures. At the other it needs to be totally smooth
> with absolutely no deformations.

That's not TUNING, fuckwit.

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: char...@candehope.me.uk (charles)
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
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 by: charles - Sun, 8 May 2022 08:12 UTC

In article <jdor3gFjv4qU1@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 11:42, RJH wrote:
> > Indeed - which was sort of my original question - would it be 'well
> > enough' with whatever that thing I linked to is? And the answer is
> > 'probably not'.
> >
> > The unit's due next week and I've got a lot of long drives coming up,
> > so I'll lash up something that at least works (it comes with a screen
> > aerial) and take it from there.

> A quarterwave on the roof will outperform a screen aerial massively.
> Bear in mind though that the use of the same channel for different muxes
> in different (sometimes overlapping) areas is a big factor in limiting
> DAB mobile reception.

I must be about 50 years ago that colleagues did tests with Volvo to show
that the roof was the ideal place of a car aerial. Almost any other
location on a car gave distinct directional lobes.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 09:46:46 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Martin Brown - Sun, 8 May 2022 08:46 UTC

On 06/05/2022 16:05, charles wrote:
> In article <jdkqbtFr90fU1@mid.individual.net>, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> On 05 May 2022 at 20:39:47 BST, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>>> On 3 May 2022 at 20:49:28 BST, "williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/05/2022 08:10, RJH wrote:
>>>>> Anybody had any success with one of these? -
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002430541537.html
>>>>>
>>>>> 'Conversion Cable DAB+ Antenna AM/FM ISO Jack to ISO Male Signal
>>>>> Amplifier Radio Antenna Aerial for Car Radio'
>>>>
>>>> It's just an amplifier.
>>>
>>> Is it though? Does any sort of filtering or stuff happen to make it
>>> suitable for DAB?
>
>> Suitable in what way?
>
>>> It does seem odd to me that existing FM aerials can't be used, given
>>> all of my DAB portables seem to work with either a dangling wire or
>>> unextended telescopic aerial.
>
>> Wrong frequency band, I would have said. An FM aerial (on a rooftop at
>> least) is tuned to pick up from 88-105MHz or so, DAB seems to be
>> 170-240MHz or so. A bit of wire is not, of course, tuned vey well.
>
> my elderly Band II aerial feeds my DAB tuner with no problems

That is because you live in the south. DAB is all but unusable where I
live even with a good antenna and balun tuned to the right band.

It didn't help when the Bedale transmitter mast burned down. It was
still pretty useless before that and drops out on the A1/M62 too.

The only thing that DAB does better than FM is the inter programme gaps.
Insufficient bitrate and the wrong codec badly implemented.

If there is plenty of signal around it hardly matters what the antenna
looks like provided that there is enough of it (length of wire).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: FM-Dab aerial converter

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: FM-Dab aerial converter
Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 11:44:06 +0100
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Sun, 8 May 2022 10:44 UTC

In article <59e54598d7charles@candehope.me.uk>,
charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <jdor3gFjv4qU1@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
> <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> > On 07/05/2022 11:42, RJH wrote:
> > > Indeed - which was sort of my original question - would it be 'well
> > > enough' with whatever that thing I linked to is? And the answer is
> > > 'probably not'.
> > >
> > > The unit's due next week and I've got a lot of long drives coming up,
> > > so I'll lash up something that at least works (it comes with a screen
> > > aerial) and take it from there.

> > A quarterwave on the roof will outperform a screen aerial massively.
> > Bear in mind though that the use of the same channel for different muxes
> > in different (sometimes overlapping) areas is a big factor in limiting
> > DAB mobile reception.

> I must be about 50 years ago that colleagues did tests with Volvo to show
> that the roof was the ideal place of a car aerial. Almost any other
> location on a car gave distinct directional lobes.

Quite a few makes fitted roof aerials as standard once - even in AM days.
Rover and Rolls-Royce. Perhaps automatic car washes stopped that fashion.
Until the sharks fin versions appeared.

--
*We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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