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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

SubjectAuthor
* funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicAndy Burns
|+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
||`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicAndy Burns
|| +* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
|| |`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThe Natural Philosopher
|| | `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|| `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
||  `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicwilliamwright
||   `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
|+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
||+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicTim Lamb
|||+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topiccharles
||||`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicS Viemeister
|||| `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicAndrew
|||`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
||| `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicSpike
||+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|||+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
||||+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|||||`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicHarry Bloomfield Esq
||||| `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|||||  `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicHarry Bloomfield Esq
|||||   +- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicSteve Walker
|||||   `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topiccharles
||||+- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThe Natural Philosopher
||||`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicwilliamwright
|||| +* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
|||| |`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicAndrew
|||| `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicAndrew
||||  `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicwilliamwright
|||+- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicTim Lamb
|||`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicAndrew
||`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicSH
|`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThomas Prufer
| `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
+- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJohn Rumm
|+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicBev
||`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicTim Streater
|+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicOwain Lastname
||`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
|| `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicFredxx
||  `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
||   +- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
||   `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicFredxx
||    `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
|`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicColin Bignell
| +* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
| |+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicColin Bignell
| ||`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicTim Streater
| |+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topiccharles
| ||`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
| || `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicColin Bignell
| |`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJohn Rumm
| `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicPeter Johnson
|  `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicColin Bignell
+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicPancho
|`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicNY
| `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicPancho
|  `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicNY
+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicRobin
|`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
| `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicRobin
|  +* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|  |`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThe Natural Philosopher
|  | +* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|  | |`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThomas Prufer
|  | | +* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThomas Prufer
|  | | |`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
|  | | `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
|  | +* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicRobin
|  | |+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|  | ||`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThe Natural Philosopher
|  | || `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|  | ||  `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThe Natural Philosopher
|  | |`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThe Natural Philosopher
|  | | +- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB
|  | | `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicRobin
|  | |  `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicThe Natural Philosopher
|  | `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
|  `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
|   +- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicRobin
|   +- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topiccharles
|   `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicPeter Johnson
+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicSpike
|`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJeff Layman
+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicClive Arthur
|+* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicaprilswee...@gmail.com
||+- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicClive Arthur
||`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicPeter Johnson
|`- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
+- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicARW
`* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicBrian
 +- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicJock
 `* Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicAndrew
  `- Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topicGB

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Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<op.1lqs09tsc5duzs@pvr2.lan>

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From: kdj...@gmail.com (Jock)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 20:35:23 +1000
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 by: Jock - Fri, 6 May 2022 10:35 UTC

On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:26:31 +1000, Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:

> aprilswee...@gmail.com <aprilsweetheartrose@gmail.com> wrote:
>> My OH and I have very different ideas about funerals. I want to be
>> buried in a churchyard ( my family are a graveyard type family). My OH
>> have always been burners.
>>
>> The other day ( after watching TV adverts or listening to some radio
>> programme about funerals I think) he told me that funeral costs were
>> very
>> expensive and indicated that if I die before him he will opt for the
>> plainest, simplest funeral/ cremation he can get to "Save money" We
>> dont
>> need to save money is the first point here. I have money of my own from
>> my aunt as an inheritance anyway. Thats in addition to working for 40
>> odd
>> years and having some money from that although that always ended up in
>> the joint money pot ( big mistake as OH thinks he earned all that money,
>> not me). He is something of a miser.
>>
>> I dont want a paupers funeral. I dont want a paupers grave. I can
>> afford
>> better. Is there any way I can ensure he doesnt send me off to a
>> paupers grave or worse, burn me to save money?
>>
>> I know people ignore wills. Many have been sidestepped in my family and
>> my OH's. Burned, lost, and plain ignored. Is there a way I can make
>> sure I just get a decent burial when I am gone from this life?
>>
>> I know its a contentious issue. I wont engage in the whys and wherefores
>> of peoples ideas on disposing of bodies after death. The question is
>> simple for me.
>>
>
> Buy one of those pre-paid plans and pay for it.
>
> Nothing will be saved if your wishes aren’t followed.

Some do provide a rebate if the surviving spouse goes for a cheaper
option like a cremation with no ceremony.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
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 by: Peter Johnson - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:53 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 04:42:01 -0700 (PDT), "aprilswee...@gmail.com"
<aprilsweetheartrose@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:35:05 PM UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote:
>
>> A tattoo would be hard to ignore.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers
>> Clive
>
>There is a thought. That made me smile too. You never know, it could be the way forward. I have heard of people having tatoo's for refusing to donate organs and such things.

Are you sure he's not just saying that he would dispose of you as
cheaply as possible because he knows it will wind you up?

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 14:56:12 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:56 UTC

On 05/05/2022 12:23, S Viemeister wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 10:01, charles wrote:
>
>> My in-laws both had a church funeral service, then the bodies were
>> cremated. The ashes were buried in their church grounds.  So, you can
>> have
>> both ideas happening
>>
> Yes. A number of my relatives have had their ashes buried or scattered
> in the village cemetery.
>

A lot of people have requested that their ashes are sprinkled
around their favourite hilltop/mountain top views. This has
caused some issues with the local ecology because what you
are spreading is effectively garden fertiliser and this encourages
the wrong sort of plants to flourish.

In Sweden they are researching replacing cremation with
freeze-drying and dessication instead.

Yesterday I went to Guildford by bus and it went past a
place in the country (near Cranleigh?) where 'woodland' burials
are done, but it looked like a large scruffy field with a lot
of saplings planted in regimented rows. Wood it wasn't.

Surprised at how down-at-heel Guildford has become. Many
familiar shops that went bust, are empty and still have the original
outside banners, like Maplins, Field&Trek, Patisserie Valerie,
Moss Bros and others. Debenhams looks like the ideal site
for demolition and replacement by luxury apartments overlooking
the river but no sign of activity there yet.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 15:01:13 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Fri, 6 May 2022 14:01 UTC

On 05/05/2022 12:17, GB wrote:

> You sound really unhappy. Depressed, even. You could possibly benefit
> from a chat with your GP.  Just a thought.
>

Probably the last person you should talk to. That conversation
will be duly noted on your medical records and future GP's (who
have never met you) will read it and it will immediately affect
their proposed course of action, if you are developing something
more serious, and which could be identified if the correct test
was requested early enough.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 15:12:35 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Fri, 6 May 2022 14:12 UTC

On 06/05/2022 01:33, williamwright wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 12:38, aprilswee...@gmail.com wrote:
>> It needs a solution not a  bunch of anti depressants to make me feel
>> happy about something I am not happy about.
>
> It's true that medication or CBT cannot put your life right, but they
> can help you cope with its defects.
>
> Bill
Busy people don't have time to feel 'depressed'. An active
dog is usually better than pills.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 15:13:53 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Fri, 6 May 2022 14:13 UTC

On 06/05/2022 07:35, aprilswee...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 1:33:08 AM UTC+1, wrights...@f2s.com wrote:
>> On 05/05/2022 12:38, aprilswee...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> It needs a solution not a bunch of anti depressants to make me feel happy about something I am not happy about.
>> It's true that medication or CBT cannot put your life right, but they
>> can help you cope with its defects.
>>
>> Bill
>
> It is not appropriate for my situation. I am not suffering from a mental illness/ health issue. CBT will not change the fact my OH wants to burn me when I want to be buried. Or are you suggesting I ask a therapist to change my thinking patterns to accept my OH's point of view?
>
> CBT can only change the thinking patterns of those who under go it. It cannot change a situation.

If 'Other Half' is a he, then he will probably depart first.

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Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
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 by: Andrew - Fri, 6 May 2022 14:28 UTC

On 06/05/2022 11:26, Brian wrote:

> Buy one of those pre-paid plans and pay for it.
>

It's not unknown for these companies to go bust because
they underestimated the effect of inflation.

+ Fraud.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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 by: GB - Fri, 6 May 2022 14:44 UTC

On 06/05/2022 15:28, Andrew wrote:
> On 06/05/2022 11:26, Brian wrote:
>
>> Buy one of those pre-paid plans and pay for it.
>>
>
> It's not unknown for these companies to go bust because
> they underestimated the effect of inflation.
>
> + Fraud.
>

The FCA is dealing with that. At last.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 18:23:11 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Fri, 6 May 2022 17:23 UTC

On 06/05/2022 15:12, Andrew wrote:
> Busy people don't have time to feel 'depressed'. An active
> dog is usually better than pills.

There's a lot of truth in that, but not when it's severe brain-chemistry
induced illness.

People say they're depressed when they mean they're pissed off at the
moment. It's like saying you've got brain cancer when you have a headache.

Bill

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 18:54:35 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 6 May 2022 17:54 UTC

On 05/05/2022 17:03, Robin wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 15:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 05/05/2022 12:48, GB wrote:
>>> If, as others have suggested, the OP appoints a solicitor or bank as
>>> executor, it could be easy for Hubby to keep the executor in the dark
>>> about the death. Then, Hubby claims the body, and by the time the
>>> executor comes on the scene perhaps months later, the body has long
>>> since been cremated.
>>
>> I think this is verging on fantasy.
>> A death involves many agencies - possibly police, ambulance, social
>> services..it's quite hard to keep them apart.
>>
>> For example unless you forge signatures you cant access a dead
>> person's account that easily, and if you do, its criminal .
>>
>> That is unless something is clearly passed on to you by the will, or
>> by common law,  grabbing it is theft.
>>
>
> I have no idea why you claim it is "verging on fantasy".  Nothing in the
> normal process after a death requires enquiries into the existence of a
> will before the funeral.  If Hubby is not the executor he could, if
> asked, deny knowledge of any will.  He then stand as clearly first in
> line in the putative intestacy and not just able to arrange the disposal
> of the body but responsible for doing so.   What happens later when the
> executor learns of the death is another matter.  But AFAIK Hubby would
> have committed no criminal offence.

Of course he would. Claiming there is no will when there is is illegal.

If there is a will lodged elsewhere and an external executor, the thing
has to go to probate before hubby can touch anything without committing
fraud, and if there is a clause specifically saying that cremation will
be penalised, it will be

> And who would have standing to sue
> him and for what?
>
Not tort. Criminal offence.

If there is a well structured will which clearly states 'no burial=no
dosh', and the hubby is aware of it and its lodged with a solicitor,
hubby is in criminal doggy doo if he claims there isn't and seeks a
settlement based on intestacy, and if you really want some tort, leave
it to a charity that can sue if it doesn't get it.

" Caroline Woodhouse, sister of Ian Woodhouse, deceased, has just
received a four month prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, after
clearing out her brother's bank accounts and redeeming his insurance
policy just days after his funeral. Mr Woodhouse had other sisters and
it appears, therefore, that his estate ought to have been split between
all the siblings.

The rules regarding the administration of an estate are set out in the
Administration of Estates Act 1925 and, specifically, section 25 sets
out the duties of an executor. In the present case it appears that Mrs
Woodhouse not only acted in breach of any duties she may have owed to
the estate and its beneficiaries as an executor but, in appropriating
these assets, she was also guilty of theft."

https://www.hughjames.com/blog/theft-of-estate-assets-results-in-criminal-conviction-for-beneficiary

The solution here is to appoint other beneficiaries and an executor who
can act to put a brake on 'hubby' . A good solicitor required, and
possibly even a 'dead man's handle' so if e.g. no communication is
received every week from the person, enquiries as to her safety and well
being are made.
I remember once drawing up a contract 'don't you trust me?' 'A contract
means I don't *have* to trust you'.

Wills are covered by extensive case law, Hire a solicitor and tell him
what you want.

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 19:00:10 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 6 May 2022 18:00 UTC

On 05/05/2022 17:22, GB wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 17:03, Robin wrote:
>> On 05/05/2022 15:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 05/05/2022 12:48, GB wrote:
>>>> If, as others have suggested, the OP appoints a solicitor or bank as
>>>> executor, it could be easy for Hubby to keep the executor in the
>>>> dark about the death. Then, Hubby claims the body, and by the time
>>>> the executor comes on the scene perhaps months later, the body has
>>>> long since been cremated.
>>>
>>> I think this is verging on fantasy.
>>> A death involves many agencies - possibly police, ambulance, social
>>> services..it's quite hard to keep them apart.
>>>
>>> For example unless you forge signatures you cant access a dead
>>> person's account that easily, and if you do, its criminal .
>>>
>>> That is unless something is clearly passed on to you by the will, or
>>> by common law,  grabbing it is theft.
>>>
>>
>> I have no idea why you claim it is "verging on fantasy".  Nothing in
>> the normal process after a death requires enquiries into the existence
>> of a will before the funeral.  If Hubby is not the executor he could,
>> if asked, deny knowledge of any will.  He then stand as clearly first
>> in line in the putative intestacy and not just able to arrange the
>> disposal of the body but responsible for doing so.   What happens
>> later when the executor learns of the death is another matter.  But
>> AFAIK Hubby would have committed no criminal offence.  And who would
>> have standing to sue him and for what?
>>
>
>
> I was perplexed by the reference to social services. They have their
> work cut out caring for the living.

If deceased has care ongoing, or if hubby is getting attendance
allowance, I can assure you social services want to know if she pops her
clogs

And if you don't tell them and pocket the dosh, that too is criminal.

The number of people who need to be informed when someone dies is vast.
Banks, Insurance companies, DHSS, DLV, Inland Revenue...you need dozens
of death cerificates and probate as well before you start to tidy up the
mess.

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

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 by: GB - Fri, 6 May 2022 18:40 UTC

On 06/05/2022 19:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 17:22, GB wrote:
>> On 05/05/2022 17:03, Robin wrote:
>>> On 05/05/2022 15:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 05/05/2022 12:48, GB wrote:
>>>>> If, as others have suggested, the OP appoints a solicitor or bank
>>>>> as executor, it could be easy for Hubby to keep the executor in the
>>>>> dark about the death. Then, Hubby claims the body, and by the time
>>>>> the executor comes on the scene perhaps months later, the body has
>>>>> long since been cremated.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is verging on fantasy.
>>>> A death involves many agencies - possibly police, ambulance, social
>>>> services..it's quite hard to keep them apart.
>>>>
>>>> For example unless you forge signatures you cant access a dead
>>>> person's account that easily, and if you do, its criminal .
>>>>
>>>> That is unless something is clearly passed on to you by the will, or
>>>> by common law,  grabbing it is theft.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have no idea why you claim it is "verging on fantasy".  Nothing in
>>> the normal process after a death requires enquiries into the
>>> existence of a will before the funeral.  If Hubby is not the executor
>>> he could, if asked, deny knowledge of any will.  He then stand as
>>> clearly first in line in the putative intestacy and not just able to
>>> arrange the disposal of the body but responsible for doing so.   What
>>> happens later when the executor learns of the death is another
>>> matter.  But AFAIK Hubby would have committed no criminal offence.
>>> And who would have standing to sue him and for what?
>>>
>>
>>
>> I was perplexed by the reference to social services. They have their
>> work cut out caring for the living.
>
> If deceased has care ongoing, or if hubby is getting attendance
> allowance, I can assure you social services want to know if she pops her
> clogs
>
> And if you don't tell them and pocket the dosh, that too is criminal.
>
> The number of people who need to be informed when someone dies is vast.
> Banks, Insurance companies, DHSS, DLV, Inland Revenue...you need dozens
> of death cerificates and probate as well before you start to tidy up the
> mess.
>
>

Yes, of course. But, surely your post as suggesting they would be
interested in whether the OP is buried or cremated. Plus, the ambulance
service and the police!

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Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 19:44:40 +0100
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 by: GB - Fri, 6 May 2022 18:44 UTC

On 06/05/2022 18:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> If there is a well structured will which clearly states 'no burial=no
> dosh', and the hubby is aware of it and its lodged with a solicitor,
> hubby is in criminal doggy doo if he claims there isn't and seeks a
> settlement based on intestacy, and if you really want some tort, leave
> it to a charity that can sue if it doesn't get it.

This is clearly nothing at all to do with what I wrote. So, it's daft
that you replied to my post, and said it's verging on fantasy.

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From: rbw...@outlook.com (Robin)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 22:01:30 +0100
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 by: Robin - Fri, 6 May 2022 21:01 UTC

On 06/05/2022 18:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 17:03, Robin wrote:
>> On 05/05/2022 15:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 05/05/2022 12:48, GB wrote:
>>>> If, as others have suggested, the OP appoints a solicitor or bank as
>>>> executor, it could be easy for Hubby to keep the executor in the
>>>> dark about the death. Then, Hubby claims the body, and by the time
>>>> the executor comes on the scene perhaps months later, the body has
>>>> long since been cremated.
>>>
>>> I think this is verging on fantasy.
>>> A death involves many agencies - possibly police, ambulance, social
>>> services..it's quite hard to keep them apart.
>>>
>>> For example unless you forge signatures you cant access a dead
>>> person's account that easily, and if you do, its criminal .
>>>
>>> That is unless something is clearly passed on to you by the will, or
>>> by common law,  grabbing it is theft.
>>>
>>
>> I have no idea why you claim it is "verging on fantasy".  Nothing in
>> the normal process after a death requires enquiries into the existence
>> of a will before the funeral.  If Hubby is not the executor he could,
>> if asked, deny knowledge of any will.  He then stand as clearly first
>> in line in the putative intestacy and not just able to arrange the
>> disposal of the body but responsible for doing so.   What happens
>> later when the executor learns of the death is another matter.  But
>> AFAIK Hubby would have committed no criminal offence.
>
> Of course he would. Claiming there is no will when there is is illegal.

Bearing in mind I said "deny knowledge of any will" please tell us (a)
what offence and (b) what evidence you would adduce that he lied rather
than forgot?

> If there is a will lodged elsewhere and an external executor, the thing
> has to go to probate before  hubby can touch anything without committing
> fraud, and if there is a clause specifically saying that cremation will
> be penalised, it will be

We are addressing the funeral, not the estate. As GB pointed out, there
is no property in a corpse. It is *not* part of the estate.

>
>> And who would have standing to sue him and for what?
>>
> Not tort. Criminal offence.

> If there is a well structured will which clearly states 'no burial=no
> dosh', and the hubby is aware of it and its lodged with a solicitor,
> hubby is in criminal doggy doo if he claims there isn't and seeks a
> settlement based on intestacy, and if you really want some tort, leave
> it to a charity that can sue if it doesn't get it.

> " Caroline Woodhouse, sister of Ian Woodhouse, deceased, has just
> received a four month prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, after
> clearing out her brother's bank accounts and redeeming his insurance
> policy just days after his funeral.  Mr Woodhouse had other sisters and
> it appears, therefore, that his estate ought to have been split between
> all the siblings.
>
> The rules regarding the administration of an estate are set out in the
> Administration of Estates Act 1925 and, specifically, section 25 sets
> out the duties of an executor.  In the present case it appears that Mrs
> Woodhouse not only acted in breach of any duties she may have owed to
> the estate and its beneficiaries as an executor but, in appropriating
> these assets, she was also guilty of theft."
>
> https://www.hughjames.com/blog/theft-of-estate-assets-results-in-criminal-conviction-for-beneficiary
>

You are again confusing the funeral with the administration of the
estate. They are not one and the same.

>
> The solution here is to appoint other beneficiaries and an executor who
> can act to put a brake on 'hubby' . A good solicitor required, and
> possibly even a 'dead man's handle' so if e.g. no communication is
> received every week from the person, enquiries as to her safety and well
> being are made.
> I remember once drawing up a contract 'don't you trust me?' 'A contract
> means I don't *have* to trust you'.
>
> Wills are covered by extensive case law, Hire a solicitor and tell him
> what you want.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<t82c7hdpt8i93s0odjlomajlg6ebt3kkin@4ax.com>

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From: prufer.p...@mnet-online.de.invalid (Thomas Prufer)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 07:57:14 +0200
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 by: Thomas Prufer - Sat, 7 May 2022 05:57 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 08:11:50 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

>Pre-pay your own funeral?

This.

Explain exactly what you want to the people that will provide the service, pay
for it. (In Trenznal it is currently possible to pay now, die later, and any
price increases in the services are offset by the service provider retaining the
money from now till then.)

There is still the chance that you could be buried differently, but this would
means forfeiting the money already paid, so unlikely in the circumstances you
describe:-) The service providers have been (pre-)paid by you, and might be
talked into doing it differently -- but not at a lesser cost!

Thomas Prufer

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<op.1lsbd1ftc5duzs@pvr2.lan>

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From: kdj...@gmail.com (Jock)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
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 by: Jock - Sat, 7 May 2022 06:09 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 15:57:14 +1000, Thomas Prufer
<prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:

> On Thu, 5 May 2022 08:11:50 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Pre-pay your own funeral?
>
> This.
>
> Explain exactly what you want to the people that will provide the
> service, pay
> for it. (In Trenznal it is currently possible to pay now, die later, and
> any
> price increases in the services are offset by the service provider
> retaining the
> money from now till then.)
>
> There is still the chance that you could be buried differently, but this
> would
> means forfeiting the money already paid, so unlikely in the
> circumstances you
> describe:-) The service providers have been (pre-)paid by you, and might
> be
> talked into doing it differently -- but not at a lesser cost!

Wrong. Some will give the one organising the burial a refund
of part of what is paid if they choose to go for a cheaper burial.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<0f3c7h9o3golgtjk3oo35to9fc4js8je8b@4ax.com>

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From: prufer.p...@mnet-online.de.invalid (Thomas Prufer)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 08:19:42 +0200
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 by: Thomas Prufer - Sat, 7 May 2022 06:19 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 16:55:02 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:

>The funeral was arranged by my BIL, and the only document he was asked
>to show was the death certificate. She was actually buried less than 24
>hours after she died, because that suited BIL.
>
>As it happens, BIL was one of the executors, but he was never required
>to prove it.
>
>I really can't see what would stop the OP's husband from doing likewise,
>except he'd choose a cheap cremation. Where's the fantasy?

A Modest Proposal:

First, prepay a funeral of choice.

Then, get a tattoo "Do not cremate!", plus further instructions to contact XYZ?

Thomas Prufer

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<hu4c7h9bmop9064i99obbdrv748j4mqbfk@4ax.com>

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From: prufer.p...@mnet-online.de.invalid (Thomas Prufer)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 08:40:07 +0200
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 by: Thomas Prufer - Sat, 7 May 2022 06:40 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 08:19:42 +0200, Thomas Prufer
<prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:

>A Modest Proposal:
>
>First, prepay a funeral of choice.
>
>Then, get a tattoo "Do not cremate!", plus further instructions to contact XYZ?
>
>
>Thomas Prufer

Or get a pacemaker!

See article below...

Thomas Prufer

Pacemaker explosions in crematoria: problems and possible solutions
Christopher P Gale, BSc MRCP and Graham P Mulley, DM FRCP
Author information Copyright and License information Disclaimer
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Go to:
Abstract

The number of artificial cardiac pacemakers is increasing, as is the number of
bodies being cremated. Because of the explosive potential of pacemakers when
heated, a statutory question on the cremation form asks whether the deceased has
a pacemaker and if so whether it has been removed. We sent a questionnaire to
all the crematoria in the UK enquiring about the frequency, consequences and
prevention of pacemaker explosions. We found that about half of all crematoria
in the UK experience pacemaker explosions, that pacemaker explosions may cause
structural damage and injury and that most crematoria staff are unaware of the
explosive potential of implantable cardiac defibrillators. Crematoria staff rely
on the accurate completion of cremation forms, and doctors who sign cremation
forms have a legal obligation to provide such information.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<op.1lsdrwrec5duzs@pvr2.lan>

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From: kdj...@gmail.com (Jock)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 17:00:58 +1000
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 by: Jock - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:00 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 16:19:42 +1000, Thomas Prufer
<prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:

> On Thu, 5 May 2022 16:55:02 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> The funeral was arranged by my BIL, and the only document he was asked
>> to show was the death certificate. She was actually buried less than 24
>> hours after she died, because that suited BIL.
>>
>> As it happens, BIL was one of the executors, but he was never required
>> to prove it.
>>
>> I really can't see what would stop the OP's husband from doing likewise,
>> except he'd choose a cheap cremation. Where's the fantasy?
>
> A Modest Proposal:
>
> First, prepay a funeral of choice.
>
> Then, get a tattoo "Do not cremate!", plus further instructions to
> contact XYZ?

That won't work unless the tatoo is on her forehead because
hubby is free to tell the cremation place to not change any of
the clothing, cremate her as supplied and even with the forehead
he is free to paint over the tattoo with makeup and tell the
operation to do nothing to the body except cremate it.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<op.1lsdymrnc5duzs@pvr2.lan>

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From: kdj...@gmail.com (Jock)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 17:05:00 +1000
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 by: Jock - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:05 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 16:40:07 +1000, Thomas Prufer
<prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 07 May 2022 08:19:42 +0200, Thomas Prufer
> <prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:
>
>> A Modest Proposal:
>>
>> First, prepay a funeral of choice.
>>
>> Then, get a tattoo "Do not cremate!", plus further instructions to
>> contact XYZ?
>>
>>
>> Thomas Prufer
>
> Or get a pacemaker!
>
> See article below...
>
> Thomas Prufer
>
>
> Pacemaker explosions in crematoria: problems and possible solutions
> Christopher P Gale, BSc MRCP and Graham P Mulley, DM FRCP
> Author information Copyright and License information Disclaimer
> This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
> Go to:
> Abstract
>
> The number of artificial cardiac pacemakers is increasing, as is the
> number of
> bodies being cremated. Because of the explosive potential of pacemakers
> when
> heated, a statutory question on the cremation form asks whether the
> deceased has
> a pacemaker and if so whether it has been removed.

So hubby is free to lie on the form or even get someone to remove
it before it goes to the operation doing the cremation. Or even DIY
its removal.

> We sent a questionnaire to
> all the crematoria in the UK enquiring about the frequency, consequences
> and
> prevention of pacemaker explosions. We found that about half of all
> crematoria
> in the UK experience pacemaker explosions, that pacemaker explosions may
> cause
> structural damage and injury and that most crematoria staff are unaware
> of the
> explosive potential of implantable cardiac defibrillators. Crematoria
> staff rely
> on the accurate completion of cremation forms, and doctors who sign
> cremation
> forms have a legal obligation to provide such information.

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<t55dr2$et2$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:23:46 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 7 May 2022 09:23 UTC

On 06/05/2022 19:40, GB wrote:
> On 06/05/2022 19:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 05/05/2022 17:22, GB wrote:
>>> On 05/05/2022 17:03, Robin wrote:
>>>> On 05/05/2022 15:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 05/05/2022 12:48, GB wrote:
>>>>>> If, as others have suggested, the OP appoints a solicitor or bank
>>>>>> as executor, it could be easy for Hubby to keep the executor in
>>>>>> the dark about the death. Then, Hubby claims the body, and by the
>>>>>> time the executor comes on the scene perhaps months later, the
>>>>>> body has long since been cremated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is verging on fantasy.
>>>>> A death involves many agencies - possibly police, ambulance, social
>>>>> services..it's quite hard to keep them apart.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example unless you forge signatures you cant access a dead
>>>>> person's account that easily, and if you do, its criminal .
>>>>>
>>>>> That is unless something is clearly passed on to you by the will,
>>>>> or by common law,  grabbing it is theft.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea why you claim it is "verging on fantasy".  Nothing in
>>>> the normal process after a death requires enquiries into the
>>>> existence of a will before the funeral.  If Hubby is not the
>>>> executor he could, if asked, deny knowledge of any will.  He then
>>>> stand as clearly first in line in the putative intestacy and not
>>>> just able to arrange the disposal of the body but responsible for
>>>> doing so.   What happens later when the executor learns of the death
>>>> is another matter.  But AFAIK Hubby would have committed no criminal
>>>> offence. And who would have standing to sue him and for what?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was perplexed by the reference to social services. They have their
>>> work cut out caring for the living.
>>
>> If deceased has care ongoing, or if hubby is getting attendance
>> allowance, I can assure you social services want to know if she pops
>> her clogs
>>
>> And if you don't tell them and pocket the dosh, that too is criminal.
>>
>> The number of people who need to be informed when someone dies is
>> vast. Banks, Insurance companies, DHSS, DLV, Inland Revenue...you need
>> dozens of death cerificates and probate as well before you start to
>> tidy up the mess.
>>
>>
>
>
> Yes, of course. But, surely your post as suggesting they would be
> interested in whether the OP is buried or cremated.

I never said that. I said they would be interested in the fact of her
death...
Plus, the ambulance
> service and the police!

got to take the body away in something. And if there is even a whiff of
oddity about the death, bobby will be there.

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic

<t55dtp$et2$3@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: funeral arrangements ( DIY) possibly off topic
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:25:13 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 7 May 2022 09:25 UTC

On 06/05/2022 22:01, Robin wrote:
> On 06/05/2022 18:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 05/05/2022 17:03, Robin wrote:
>>> On 05/05/2022 15:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 05/05/2022 12:48, GB wrote:
>>>>> If, as others have suggested, the OP appoints a solicitor or bank
>>>>> as executor, it could be easy for Hubby to keep the executor in the
>>>>> dark about the death. Then, Hubby claims the body, and by the time
>>>>> the executor comes on the scene perhaps months later, the body has
>>>>> long since been cremated.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is verging on fantasy.
>>>> A death involves many agencies - possibly police, ambulance, social
>>>> services..it's quite hard to keep them apart.
>>>>
>>>> For example unless you forge signatures you cant access a dead
>>>> person's account that easily, and if you do, its criminal .
>>>>
>>>> That is unless something is clearly passed on to you by the will, or
>>>> by common law,  grabbing it is theft.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have no idea why you claim it is "verging on fantasy".  Nothing in
>>> the normal process after a death requires enquiries into the
>>> existence of a will before the funeral.  If Hubby is not the executor
>>> he could, if asked, deny knowledge of any will.  He then stand as
>>> clearly first in line in the putative intestacy and not just able to
>>> arrange the disposal of the body but responsible for doing so.   What
>>> happens later when the executor learns of the death is another
>>> matter.  But AFAIK Hubby would have committed no criminal offence.
>>
>> Of course he would. Claiming there is no will when there is is illegal.
>
> Bearing in mind I said "deny knowledge of any will" please tell us (a)
> what offence and (b) what evidence you would adduce that he lied rather
> than forgot?
>
>> If there is a will lodged elsewhere and an external executor, the
>> thing has to go to probate before  hubby can touch anything without
>> committing fraud, and if there is a clause specifically saying that
>> cremation will be penalised, it will be
>
> We are addressing the funeral, not the estate.  As GB pointed out, there
> is no property in a corpse.  It is *not* part of the estate.
>
>>
>>> And who would have standing to sue him and for what?
>>>
>> Not tort. Criminal offence.
>
>> If there is a well structured will which clearly states 'no burial=no
>> dosh', and the hubby is aware of it and its lodged with a solicitor,
>> hubby is in criminal doggy doo if he claims there isn't and seeks a
>> settlement based on intestacy, and if you really want some tort, leave
>> it to a charity that can sue if it doesn't get it.
>
>> " Caroline Woodhouse, sister of Ian Woodhouse, deceased, has just
>> received a four month prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, after
>> clearing out her brother's bank accounts and redeeming his insurance
>> policy just days after his funeral.  Mr Woodhouse had other sisters
>> and it appears, therefore, that his estate ought to have been split
>> between all the siblings.
>>
>> The rules regarding the administration of an estate are set out in the
>> Administration of Estates Act 1925 and, specifically, section 25 sets
>> out the duties of an executor.  In the present case it appears that
>> Mrs Woodhouse not only acted in breach of any duties she may have owed
>> to the estate and its beneficiaries as an executor but, in
>> appropriating these assets, she was also guilty of theft."
>>
>> https://www.hughjames.com/blog/theft-of-estate-assets-results-in-criminal-conviction-for-beneficiary
>>
>
> You are again confusing the funeral with the administration of the
> estate.  They are not one and the same.
>
>
I was tresponding to the suggestion that hubby would simply not tell
anyone she was dead.
Chuck her on the stove and pocket the cash

>>
>> The solution here is to appoint other beneficiaries and an executor
>> who can act to put a brake on 'hubby' . A good solicitor required, and
>> possibly even a 'dead man's handle' so if e.g. no communication is
>> received every week from the person, enquiries as to her safety and
>> well being are made.
>> I remember once drawing up a contract 'don't you trust me?' 'A
>> contract means I don't *have* to trust you'.
>>
>> Wills are covered by extensive case law, Hire a solicitor and tell him
>> what you want.
>
>
>
>
>

--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

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