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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Re: over-egging AFDDs?

SubjectAuthor
* over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
+* Re: over-egging AFDDs?ARW
|`* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
| `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Theo
|  +* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|  |`* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|  | +* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|  | |`- Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|  | `- Re: over-egging AFDDs?Theo
|  `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|   `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Vir Campestris
|    +* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    |+- Re: over-egging AFDDs?Animal
|    |`* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Vir Campestris
|    | +* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    | |+* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | ||`* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    | || `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | ||  `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    | ||   +* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|    | ||   |`* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Fredxx
|    | ||   | `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Steve Walker
|    | ||   |  `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?charles
|    | ||   |   `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Steve Walker
|    | ||   |    +- Re: over-egging AFDDs?charles
|    | ||   |    `- Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|    | ||   `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | ||    `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    | ||     `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | ||      `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | ||       +- Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    | ||       `- Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andrew
|    | |`- Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | +* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | |`* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    | | +- Re: over-egging AFDDs?The Natural Philosopher
|    | | `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Vir Campestris
|    | |  +* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|    | |  |`* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Vir Campestris
|    | |  | `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|    | |  |  `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Vir Campestris
|    | |  |   `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|    | |  |    `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|    | |  |     `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Vir Campestris
|    | |  |      `- Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Walliker
|    | |  `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Animal
|    | |   `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | |    +* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
|    | |    |`- Re: over-egging AFDDs?Animal
|    | |    `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Animal
|    | |     `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    | |      `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Animal
|    | |       `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
|    | |        `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
|    | |         `- Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Walliker
|    | `- Re: over-egging AFDDs?The Natural Philosopher
|    `- Re: over-egging AFDDs?John Rumm
`* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Robin
 `* Re: over-egging AFDDs?Andy Burns
  `- Re: over-egging AFDDs?The Natural Philosopher

Pages:123
Re: over-egging AFDDs?

<3e9fd005-0040-464d-acbe-f21a48a02a01n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
From: tabbyp...@gmail.com (Animal)
Injection-Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 20:30:41 +0000
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 by: Animal - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:30 UTC

On Sunday, 8 May 2022 at 07:29:00 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> Animal wrote:
>
> > Capacitor to harvest the hf content, rectify, current limit, big cap so it doesnt respond to half a second of arcing, magnetic trip. Simple stuff.

(and a coil to pick the hf content off)

>> The only load I can think of where it might be on shaky ground is the arc welder.
> >
> > Arc light lol. Even if one did use one in 2022, they don't draw lots of hf current. I used to use them. No-one does now.
> Have you watched any of the videos where John Ward or David Savery cobbled
> together rigs to generate arcs and found it remarkably difficult to get AFDDs to
> trip? The manufacturers seem to demonstrate them using a "magic pelicase" rig.

I've seen vids of them not tripping. IIRC they were generally very slow to trip when they did. In principle they might save a huge number of house fires once they're more mature technology, but they don't seem to be there for now.

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

<t59a36$9v0$2@dont-email.me>

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From: vir.camp...@invalid.invalid (Vir Campestris)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 21:44:22 +0100
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 by: Vir Campestris - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:44 UTC

On 06/05/2022 21:49, Robin wrote:
> On 06/05/2022 21:02, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 06/05/2022 15:41, Robin wrote:
>>> BEAMA and many academics share the view that they need to look at kHz
>>> or MHz signatures
>>
>> :O
>>
>> Do you have a link?
>>
>> Andy
>
> Yes.
>
> Do you have a search engine (Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo or whatever)?
>
Yes, and it didn't help me.

Now could I have that link that was so easy to find please?

Andy

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

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From: rbw...@outlook.com (Robin)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 22:41:23 +0100
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 by: Robin - Sun, 8 May 2022 21:41 UTC

On 08/05/2022 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 06/05/2022 21:49, Robin wrote:
>> On 06/05/2022 21:02, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>> On 06/05/2022 15:41, Robin wrote:
>>>> BEAMA and many academics share the view that they need to look at
>>>> kHz or MHz signatures
>>>
>>> :O
>>>
>>> Do you have a link?
>>>
>>> Andy
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Do you have a search engine (Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo or whatever)?
>>
> Yes, and it didn't help me.
>
> Now could I have that link that was so easy to find please?
>

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=BEAMA+AFDD

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

<4a6deb45-7749-399e-9b85-21c72f349c9c@outlook.com>

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From: rbw...@outlook.com (Robin)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 09:46:50 +0100
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 by: Robin - Mon, 9 May 2022 08:46 UTC

On 08/05/2022 22:41, Robin wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 06/05/2022 21:49, Robin wrote:
>>> On 06/05/2022 21:02, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>> On 06/05/2022 15:41, Robin wrote:
>>>>> BEAMA and many academics share the view that they need to look at
>>>>> kHz or MHz signatures
>>>>
>>>> :O
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a link?
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> Do you have a search engine (Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo or whatever)?
>>>
>> Yes, and it didn't help me.
>>
>> Now could I have that link that was so easy to find please?
>>
>
> https://lmgtfy.app/?q=BEAMA+AFDD
>
>
>
and if you want more start with the the report I posted yesterday -
pages 13-14

<https://ife.brage.unit.no/ife-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2992145/IFE-E-2022-006+-+Status+of+the+use+of+arc+fault+detection+devices+in+Norway+-+Signed.pdf?sequence=1>

--

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

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From: see.my.s...@nowhere.null (John Rumm)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 16:10:53 +0100
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 by: John Rumm - Mon, 9 May 2022 15:10 UTC

On 08/05/2022 21:30, Animal wrote:
> On Sunday, 8 May 2022 at 07:29:00 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Animal wrote:
>>
>>> Capacitor to harvest the hf content, rectify, current limit, big
>>> cap so it doesnt respond to half a second of arcing, magnetic
>>> trip. Simple stuff.
>
> (and a coil to pick the hf content off)
>
>>> The only load I can think of where it might be on shaky ground is
>>> the arc welder.
>>>
>>> Arc light lol. Even if one did use one in 2022, they don't draw
>>> lots of hf current. I used to use them. No-one does now.
>> Have you watched any of the videos where John Ward or David Savery
>> cobbled together rigs to generate arcs and found it remarkably
>> difficult to get AFDDs to trip? The manufacturers seem to
>> demonstrate them using a "magic pelicase" rig.
>
> I've seen vids of them not tripping. IIRC they were generally very
> slow to trip when they did. In principle they might save a huge
> number of house fires once they're more mature technology, but they
> don't seem to be there for now.

I get the impression that an arc alone is not enough to trip them. In
particular they look for an arc sustained between a conductor and a
carbon compound, since that reflects the nature of an arc when
insulation is overheating / burning.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 16:36:48 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Mon, 9 May 2022 15:36 UTC

John Rumm wrote:

> I get the impression that an arc alone is not enough to trip them. In particular
> they look for an arc sustained between a conductor and a carbon compound

At which point they start to sound like voodoo

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 17:21:00 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Mon, 9 May 2022 16:21 UTC

On 05/05/2022 19:52, John Rumm wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 19:11, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 04/05/2022 19:35, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> John Rumm wrote:
>>>
>>>> Are the documents still accessible on devices like phones etc
>>>
>>> They provide windows and mac acrobat plugins
>>> and iThing and android viewers (sounds like they are standalone
>>> rather than plugins, not tried)
>>> no mention of Linux
>>
>>  From the FAQ
>>
>> "Which operating systems are supported?
>>
>> The FileOpen Client will work on Windows 7 or later, Mac OSX 10.9 or
>> above, iOS, Android and Linux."
>>
>>>> and are they compatible with screen readers? (i.e. do they fall foul
>>>> of not meeting requirements under disability legislation)
>>>
>>> No mention
>>>
>>> <https://plugin.fileopen.com/faq>
>>
>> No mention but it might have a fighting chance since it seems to use
>> adobe reader to do the rendering, and that can support assistive
>> technologies.
>>
>> Still most things are compatible with my screen reader OCR in the
>> worst case! :-)
>>
>
>
> I have seen mention that there is the option to print one copy of a
> FileOpen protected PDF. Does that work on yours? (and to a PDF printer
> driver?)
>
>
The last time I wanted to see the Gas Safety regs in the local
library, I had to use a dedicated PC and could only print a
maximum of 3 pages.

That was a few years ago though.

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

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Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
From: jrwalli...@gmail.com (John Walliker)
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 by: John Walliker - Mon, 9 May 2022 16:46 UTC

On Monday, 9 May 2022 at 16:36:52 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
> > I get the impression that an arc alone is not enough to trip them. In particular
> > they look for an arc sustained between a conductor and a carbon compound
> At which point they start to sound like voodoo

It does look as if they sometimes detect arc faults and that some (but not all)
of the high-resistance faults that can cause fires involve arcing. Every fault I have
come across that involved arcing was between two copper conductors, so no
carbon was directly involved except as a consequence of the heat generated by
the fault.
The Norwegian study (which I found very interesting) also suggests that many
arc-fault reports are the result of incorrect classification. I had a look at the standard
(IEC62606) and found nothing to specify the expected operating frequency range.
The tests themselves all involve the use of adjustable arc cells or cooked cable
samples. The standard does indeed seem to involve voodoo.
John

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

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From: vir.camp...@invalid.invalid (Vir Campestris)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 21:59:20 +0100
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 by: Vir Campestris - Tue, 10 May 2022 20:59 UTC

On 09/05/2022 09:46, Robin wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 22:41, Robin wrote:
>> On 08/05/2022 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>> On 06/05/2022 21:49, Robin wrote:
>>>> On 06/05/2022 21:02, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>>> On 06/05/2022 15:41, Robin wrote:
>>>>>> BEAMA and many academics share the view that they need to look at
>>>>>> kHz or MHz signatures
>>>>>
>>>>> :O
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a link?
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a search engine (Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo or whatever)?
>>>>
>>> Yes, and it didn't help me.
>>>
>>> Now could I have that link that was so easy to find please?
>>>
>>
>> https://lmgtfy.app/?q=BEAMA+AFDD
>>
>>
>>
> and if you want more start with the the report I posted yesterday -
> pages 13-14
>
> <https://ife.brage.unit.no/ife-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2992145/IFE-E-2022-006+-+Status+of+the+use+of+arc+fault+detection+devices+in+Norway+-+Signed.pdf?sequence=1>
>
>

Ah, thank you. The keyword I was apparently missing is "BEAMA". Though
I'm not sure how you got from there to a site in Norway.

Much to my dismay they cost 2000Kr each. That's about £170. It would be
quite a bit to fit them across our whole box - and I'm not sure they'd fit.

Also to my surprise is this:
"The discharge starts as an arc/spark discharge with noise frequencies
(white noise) up to 300 MHz. The low and high-frequency noise eventually
disappears while heat generation continues. When the fault transitions
to the glowing phase, the noise frequency decreases to around 1 MHz"

Running an FFT on a 300MHz signal would take significant CPU power. They
must have a hardware block to do it. The diagrams suggest this is indeed
the case.

Andy

Re: over-egging AFDDs?

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Subject: Re: over-egging AFDDs?
From: jrwalli...@gmail.com (John Walliker)
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 by: John Walliker - Tue, 10 May 2022 22:28 UTC

On Tuesday, 10 May 2022 at 21:59:24 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 09:46, Robin wrote:
> > On 08/05/2022 22:41, Robin wrote:
> >> On 08/05/2022 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:
> >>> On 06/05/2022 21:49, Robin wrote:
> >>>> On 06/05/2022 21:02, Vir Campestris wrote:
> >>>>> On 06/05/2022 15:41, Robin wrote:
> >>>>>> BEAMA and many academics share the view that they need to look at
> >>>>>> kHz or MHz signatures
> >>>>>
> >>>>> :O
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you have a link?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes.
> >>>>
> >>>> Do you have a search engine (Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo or whatever)?
> >>>>
> >>> Yes, and it didn't help me.
> >>>
> >>> Now could I have that link that was so easy to find please?
> >>>
> >>
> >> https://lmgtfy.app/?q=BEAMA+AFDD
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > and if you want more start with the the report I posted yesterday -
> > pages 13-14
> >
> > <https://ife.brage.unit.no/ife-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2992145/IFE-E-2022-006+-+Status+of+the+use+of+arc+fault+detection+devices+in+Norway+-+Signed.pdf?sequence=1>
> >
> >
> Ah, thank you. The keyword I was apparently missing is "BEAMA". Though
> I'm not sure how you got from there to a site in Norway.
>
> Much to my dismay they cost 2000Kr each. That's about £170. It would be
> quite a bit to fit them across our whole box - and I'm not sure they'd fit.
>
> Also to my surprise is this:
> "The discharge starts as an arc/spark discharge with noise frequencies
> (white noise) up to 300 MHz. The low and high-frequency noise eventually
> disappears while heat generation continues. When the fault transitions
> to the glowing phase, the noise frequency decreases to around 1 MHz"
>
> Running an FFT on a 300MHz signal would take significant CPU power. They
> must have a hardware block to do it. The diagrams suggest this is indeed
> the case.
I'm not convinced. I suspect that they just look at the power in one or a few
frequency bands defined with analogue filters and analyse the envelope signal
and correlate it with the mains current and voltage waveforms. The standard
gives some hints about that. That would seem about right for a small
microcontroller such as an ARM M0.

John

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