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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

SubjectAuthor
* Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerJeff Layman
+* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerTheo
|+* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerJeff Layman
||+* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerTheo
|||`- Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerJeff Layman
||`* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerMark
|| `- Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerJeff Layman
|`* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerChris Hogg
| `- Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerTheo
+* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerThe Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerJeff Layman
| `- Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerThe Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerThe Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerJeff Layman
| `- Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerThe Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerDave W
|`* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerJeff Layman
| `- Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerThe Natural Philosopher
`* Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerClive Arthur
 `- Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleanerJeff Layman

1
Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 19:10:01 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sat, 7 May 2022 18:10 UTC

We bought a Hoover Jovis+ handheld vacuum about 6 years ago. It was very
reliable, and about 6 months ago I thought it was time to replace the
filter, which had been cleaned many times. So I bought a pack of three
filters. I should have known...

Today, after a couple of minutes' use, it just stopped working. Nothing.
No lights, and no lights on placing in the charger. First challenge was
how to get into it. I could see six obvious screws, and two more in an
awkward position. I got them all out, but of course, the cleaner didn't
come apart. It had some plastic snap clips, but they didn't seem to be
the main issue. After 20 minutes, I found another couple of hidden
screws, but even after removing them, it remained stubbornly in one
piece. After another 10 minutes of brute force and ignorance, I found
the plastic clips holding the main case on. Releasing those got me to
the on/off switch and the led charge-state display. See
<https://ibb.co/xGfnn3t> and <https://ibb.co/RDrMH4q>. The transparent
blue thing next to the switch seemed to be a fuse, but it was ok. I
couldn't see the battery pack, but the only place it could be was under
the motor.

The next step was to unplug the battery leads and see what the voltage
was. It should have been 18V, but I was getting only about 0.3V. I could
see a couple of small screws holding the battery pack cover on. They
were a small torx size, but a narrow flat-bladed screwdriver fitted
well enough to undo them. The cover still didn't come off! I then found
another couple of the torx screws on the underside of the cover. After
removal the cover came off to reveal five 18650 Li ion cells. There was
also a circuit board of unusual shape which fitted between the top of
the cells and the cover. I carefully pulled it aside as far as possible
to see what was underneath. It was a rather complicated little board -
see <https://ibb.co/Gsd38Qt>. Testing the cells before they connected to
the circuit showed they were fully charged at 18V. It was only after the
+ve lead entered the board that the voltage dropped. I examined the
components with a 10x loupe, but there was nothing obviously faulty. The
main active components were marked:

NCE30812K
CG42
There were two of these. An NCE3080K appears to be a power mosfet.

S3G
3A diode

D5028A
502
28 pin IC. Controller for charging the cells?

So it's had it. I suppose that I can make use of the 18650s, and perhaps
the 18V motor (supposedly rated at 120W!). Even if it was possible to
get a replacement battery pack of that curved shape, I'm sure it
wouldn't be far off the price of a new vacuum cleaner.

--

Jeff

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: 07 May 2022 21:35:00 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sat, 7 May 2022 20:35 UTC

Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> So it's had it. I suppose that I can make use of the 18650s, and perhaps
> the 18V motor (supposedly rated at 120W!). Even if it was possible to
> get a replacement battery pack of that curved shape, I'm sure it
> wouldn't be far off the price of a new vacuum cleaner.

It sounds like it's tripped the protection MOSFET, so the load is
disconnected from the cells. I wonder why?

One thing, sometimes the battery and the motor control are the same unit -
so the unit is 'off' and they use the same MOSFET for protection as for
on/off control. If you didn't have everything plugged in, or something went
wrong with the trigger/etc, could exhibit that behaviour.

In normal battery land, the protection MOSFET could be tripped by over
temperature (of the battery, but also the motor if that has its own
thermistor): did your new filter cause the unit to get too hot? It's a
common problem with Dysons when the filter clogs up: they run for a few
seconds, but there's no airflow through the motor so it overheats and trips
overtemp.

Or there was something 'wrong' with the load: overcurrent, cell undervoltage
(ageing cells which drop out under load, causing an undervoltage lockout?)
Or dodgy charging, although probably not in this case.

If it took 20 minutes to disassemble, probably a potential overtemp
condition has cooled off. So I'm a bit surprised the controller didn't
self-reset.

I think this is the chip, R5436T502BA-E2:
http://4.imimg.com/data4/AG/DD/MY-7190107/multi-cell-li-ion-battery-protection-ics-r5436-series.pdf
It doesn't seem to have any nonvolatile storage, so it might be worth a try
power-cycling it. Since power is coming from the cells, it would mean
disconnecting the cell wires from the pack so power is removed from the
chip.

Theo

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 09:10:57 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 8 May 2022 08:10 UTC

On 07/05/2022 19:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
> So it's had it. I suppose that I can make use of the 18650s, and perhaps
> the 18V motor (supposedly rated at 120W!). Even if it was possible to
> get a replacement battery pack of that curved shape, I'm sure it
> wouldn't be far off the price of a new vacuum cleaner.

Back in the day us aeromodellers would pick up any reduced price power
tools purely for the battery cells.

The motors were occasionally used for flight but were rather heavy for
the power.
I would expect a 160W motor to weigh in these days at around 40g. a bit
under 2 oz.

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 09:38:35 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 8 May 2022 08:38 UTC

On 07/05/2022 19:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
> I examined the components with a 10x loupe, but there was nothing
> obviously faulty. The main active components were marked:
>
> NCE30812K
>   CG42
> There were two of these. An NCE3080K appears to be a power mosfet.
>

As do what you have there. probably worth replacing. Most power mosfets
are similar - only slight variations in spec differentiate them

> S3G
> 3A diode
>
yep.

> D5028A
>    502
> 28 pin IC. Controller for charging the cells?

Yes. It is a battery protection chip seemingly.

https://www.yoycart.com/Product/565999293693/

Might be worth getting a spare.

Things to note. There seems to be a low value resistor R51 - check that
hasn't died.

You don't show the motor - I assume it is a standard chinese can brushed
motor?
Have you checked to see if it spins up? wired direct to batteries?

> It was only after the +ve lead entered the board that the voltage
dropped.

I agree that the total loss of power after entering the board seems
suspicious.
But what does it mean 'the voltage dropped' - which voltage? - and is
there an on off switch?.

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 09:42:35 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sun, 8 May 2022 08:42 UTC

On 07/05/2022 21:35, Theo wrote:
> Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> So it's had it. I suppose that I can make use of the 18650s, and perhaps
>> the 18V motor (supposedly rated at 120W!). Even if it was possible to
>> get a replacement battery pack of that curved shape, I'm sure it
>> wouldn't be far off the price of a new vacuum cleaner.
>
> It sounds like it's tripped the protection MOSFET, so the load is
> disconnected from the cells. I wonder why?

As it had only been running for a couple of minutes, I don't know. I
assume it's due to either the overdischarge detection voltage or
discharge overcurrent detection voltage.

> One thing, sometimes the battery and the motor control are the same unit -
> so the unit is 'off' and they use the same MOSFET for protection as for
> on/off control. If you didn't have everything plugged in, or something went
> wrong with the trigger/etc, could exhibit that behaviour.

The motor "control" is on or off. I can't see any special state such as
an "eco" mode.

> In normal battery land, the protection MOSFET could be tripped by over
> temperature (of the battery, but also the motor if that has its own
> thermistor): did your new filter cause the unit to get too hot? It's a
> common problem with Dysons when the filter clogs up: they run for a few
> seconds, but there's no airflow through the motor so it overheats and trips
> overtemp.

There was no sign of overheating; the cells are in an enclosed plastic
cover which would tend to insulate against heat loss, and although it
took time to get into the pack it would still have been warm if it had
overheated. There was a sub-miniature thermistor up against one of the
central cells which is the overheat detection. I can't see any motor
heating protection - there are just the power wires to it. We've run the
vacuum for longer without problem, both with the original and new filter.

> Or there was something 'wrong' with the load: overcurrent, cell undervoltage
> (ageing cells which drop out under load, causing an undervoltage lockout?)
> Or dodgy charging, although probably not in this case.
>
> If it took 20 minutes to disassemble, probably a potential overtemp
> condition has cooled off. So I'm a bit surprised the controller didn't
> self-reset.

That's what concerns me. Overheat, overcurrent, etc should have allowed
a reset after a while, but apparently not in this case.

> I think this is the chip, R5436T502BA-E2:
> http://4.imimg.com/data4/AG/DD/MY-7190107/multi-cell-li-ion-battery-protection-ics-r5436-series.pdf
> It doesn't seem to have any nonvolatile storage, so it might be worth a try
> power-cycling it. Since power is coming from the cells, it would mean
> disconnecting the cell wires from the pack so power is removed from the
> chip.

Thanks for that. My internet search didn't turn up that chip, but it
does look like the right one. Looks like the important pins are 5
(DRAIN) and 6 (DOUT) according to the circuit on p36, and the fets MDO
and MDR. I've identified MDO, but there are no markings on MDR.
Unfortunately, notes [13] and [14] don't give recommended types for the
fets.

It's not easy to follow the circuit on the board; it looks like a
multilayer PCB (in fact the "Power dissipation" measurement conditions
on p44 refer to the board material being "Glass Cloth Epoxy Plastic
(Four-Layer Board)"). The component designations are, of course
different on the board than those in the circuit, which doesn't help.

Anyway, I unsoldered B+ from board, left it for 30 minutes, and
resoldered it. It's still dead, I'm afraid, so looks like a new vacuum
is on the cards.

--

Jeff

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 10:27:35 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sun, 8 May 2022 09:27 UTC

On 08/05/2022 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 19:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> So it's had it. I suppose that I can make use of the 18650s, and perhaps
>> the 18V motor (supposedly rated at 120W!). Even if it was possible to
>> get a replacement battery pack of that curved shape, I'm sure it
>> wouldn't be far off the price of a new vacuum cleaner.
>
> Back in the day us aeromodellers would pick up any reduced price power
> tools purely for the battery cells.
>
> The motors were occasionally used for flight but were rather heavy for
> the power.
> I would expect a 160W motor to weigh in these days at around 40g. a bit
> under 2 oz.

This sort of thing is about 220g:
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/ProTechTrader-18v-DC-Motor/dp/B07DYTM7NQ>

--

Jeff

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 10:28:00 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sun, 8 May 2022 09:28 UTC

On 08/05/2022 09:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 19:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> I examined the components with a 10x loupe, but there was nothing
>> obviously faulty. The main active components were marked:
>>
>> NCE30812K
>>   CG42
>> There were two of these. An NCE3080K appears to be a power mosfet.
>>
>
> As do what you have there. probably worth replacing. Most power mosfets
> are similar - only slight variations in spec differentiate them

As the pcb appears dead to both charging and running the motor, I would
think it's the main IC at fault rather than one or both of the mosfets.
>> S3G
>> 3A diode
>>
> yep.
>
>> D5028A
>>    502
>> 28 pin IC. Controller for charging the cells?
>
> Yes. It is a battery protection chip seemingly.
>
> https://www.yoycart.com/Product/565999293693/
>
> Might be worth getting a spare.

Getting the chip probably wouldn't be a problem. Soldering it in
definitely would be! I would have to cut the old chip out leaving its
"stumps" to solder the new one onto as it's a multi-layer board. AFAICT,
the chip's connections are mainly within the board. There are some on top.

> Things to note. There seems to be a low value resistor R51 - check that
> hasn't died.

That appears to be Rsens in the data sheet Theo found. According to that
it's around 100mohms. My DMM won't measure that far down, but shows it
is 0.4ohm, which is near enough for me.

> You don't show the motor - I assume it is a standard chinese can brushed
> motor?
> Have you checked to see if it spins up? wired direct to batteries?

Looks like a standard 18V motor. A search didn't find the serial number
on it, but some of it may be hidden in the surround. It works perfectly
when connected directly to the battery +ve and -ve terminals.

> > It was only after the +ve lead entered the board that the voltage
> dropped.
>
> I agree that the total loss of power after entering the board seems
> suspicious.
> But what does it mean 'the voltage dropped' - which voltage? - and is
> there an on off switch?.

Just that it read 0.3V at the +ve output and should have been 18V, so
something on the pcb was preventing the full 18V appearing.

Thanks for the comments. It's like many of the specialist circuits these
days - if you've got the proper test gear it's probably possible to find
where the fault lies. Whether it's worth it or not is another matter!

--

Jeff

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: 08 May 2022 11:04:03 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sun, 8 May 2022 10:04 UTC

Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> The motor "control" is on or off. I can't see any special state such as
> an "eco" mode.

Is the trigger switch definitely working?

Does power go directly through the switch, or does it use these MOSFETs for
switching with the trigger?

> It's not easy to follow the circuit on the board; it looks like a
> multilayer PCB (in fact the "Power dissipation" measurement conditions
> on p44 refer to the board material being "Glass Cloth Epoxy Plastic
> (Four-Layer Board)"). The component designations are, of course
> different on the board than those in the circuit, which doesn't help.
>
> Anyway, I unsoldered B+ from board, left it for 30 minutes, and
> resoldered it. It's still dead, I'm afraid, so looks like a new vacuum
> is on the cards.

For a power cycle I think you'd need to desolder all the cells, otherwise
the chip could be parasitically powered through the other cell inputs.

The only other thing I can think of is to check the inputs and outputs to
the chip: are the cell inputs all good voltages, are the sense pins showing
the right things. For example if the sense resistor or thermistor were to
have a dry joint they could go open circuit, which could cause the chip to
think there's massive overcurrent or a very cold temperature and go into
protection shutdown. Or if the cells have got sufficiently out of balance
and the board doesn't have the cell balancing transistors to enable it to
rectify that (I can't see them in the picture, but they could be on the
other side of the board).

It's possible the chip is just dead, of course, but it's also possible
something in its environment is 'not right' and it's decided to take its
ball home.

Theo

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 14:20:14 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 8 May 2022 13:20 UTC

On 08/05/2022 10:27, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 07/05/2022 19:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> So it's had it. I suppose that I can make use of the 18650s, and perhaps
>>> the 18V motor (supposedly rated at 120W!). Even if it was possible to
>>> get a replacement battery pack of that curved shape, I'm sure it
>>> wouldn't be far off the price of a new vacuum cleaner.
>>
>> Back in the day us aeromodellers would pick up any reduced price power
>> tools purely for the battery cells.
>>
>> The motors were occasionally used for flight but were rather heavy for
>> the power.
>> I would expect a 160W motor to weigh in these days at around 40g. a bit
>> under 2 oz.
>
> This sort of thing is about 220g:
> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/ProTechTrader-18v-DC-Motor/dp/B07DYTM7NQ>
>
We used to get about half a horsepower out of those. Didn't last very
long mind...

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 14:23:08 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 8 May 2022 13:23 UTC

On 08/05/2022 10:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
> Thanks for the comments. It's like many of the specialist circuits these
> days - if you've got the proper test gear it's probably possible to find
> where the fault lies. Whether it's worth it or not is another matter!
slim chance but worth it. I wonder if the diode is there to stop the
batteries being overcharged. Bit actually drives the circuit when not
on charge. If that goes then board will appear dead except for charge

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: me...@privacy.net (Chris Hogg)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 14:49:36 +0100
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 by: Chris Hogg - Sun, 8 May 2022 13:49 UTC

On 07 May 2022 21:35:00 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>It's a common problem with Dysons when the filter clogs up: they run for a few
>seconds, but there's no airflow through the motor so it overheats and trips
>overtemp.
Oh thank you for that! My little hand-held Dyson, bought a good few
year ago, was doing just as you describe. I contacted Dyson and they
suggested the battery contacts needed cleaning, which didn't make a
lot of difference. Apart from that, I assumed the battery was failing.
In fact I didn't realise that there was a filter - my late wife was
the one who used it, and I 'inherited' it, as it were. Opened it up
and the filter was heavy with gritty dust (which doesn't say too much
for the cyclones' ability to remove it from the air-stream). Gave it a
thorough rinse under the tap, dried it out in the airing cupboard, and
it's working much better now - it even sucks!

--
Chris

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 15:13:53 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sun, 8 May 2022 14:13 UTC

On 08/05/2022 11:04, Theo wrote:
> Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> The motor "control" is on or off. I can't see any special state such as
>> an "eco" mode.
>
> Is the trigger switch definitely working?

Yes. If I bypass the control electronics but connect the batteries
directly to the switch, as soon as I push it on the motor turns.

> Does power go directly through the switch, or does it use these MOSFETs for
> switching with the trigger?

I didn't check, but I think all power goes through the fets as they are
the devices which limit the discharge current.

>> It's not easy to follow the circuit on the board; it looks like a
>> multilayer PCB (in fact the "Power dissipation" measurement conditions
>> on p44 refer to the board material being "Glass Cloth Epoxy Plastic
>> (Four-Layer Board)"). The component designations are, of course
>> different on the board than those in the circuit, which doesn't help.
>>
>> Anyway, I unsoldered B+ from board, left it for 30 minutes, and
>> resoldered it. It's still dead, I'm afraid, so looks like a new vacuum
>> is on the cards.
>
> For a power cycle I think you'd need to desolder all the cells, otherwise
> the chip could be parasitically powered through the other cell inputs.
>
> The only other thing I can think of is to check the inputs and outputs to
> the chip: are the cell inputs all good voltages, are the sense pins showing
> the right things. For example if the sense resistor or thermistor were to
> have a dry joint they could go open circuit, which could cause the chip to
> think there's massive overcurrent or a very cold temperature and go into
> protection shutdown. Or if the cells have got sufficiently out of balance
> and the board doesn't have the cell balancing transistors to enable it to
> rectify that (I can't see them in the picture, but they could be on the
> other side of the board).
>
> It's possible the chip is just dead, of course, but it's also possible
> something in its environment is 'not right' and it's decided to take its
> ball home.

Perhaps given the right test gear, several days, and - if I identify the
fault and the spare(s) are in stock - and I get it working again, then
that's fine. But it doesn't deal with The Management's requirement for a
working vacuum cleaner for those little spills!

There are many new ones out there in Argos, Curry's, Amazon, etc. It's
just a matter of finding the right one. Amazon have the same one, but
"currently unavailable", and a similar one, but it is a 15.6V
NiMH-powered model
(<https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01A8JC2GW/ref=emc_b_5_t?th=1>)! Strangely
it seems to have been made available after the 18V Li-ion one. But then
can you believe anything in Amazon's figures when both the Jovis+ vacs
have a stated noise level of "1dB"!!!

--

Jeff

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: 08 May 2022 21:01:23 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:01 UTC

Chris Hogg <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> Oh thank you for that! My little hand-held Dyson, bought a good few
> year ago, was doing just as you describe. I contacted Dyson and they
> suggested the battery contacts needed cleaning, which didn't make a
> lot of difference. Apart from that, I assumed the battery was failing.
> In fact I didn't realise that there was a filter - my late wife was
> the one who used it, and I 'inherited' it, as it were. Opened it up
> and the filter was heavy with gritty dust (which doesn't say too much
> for the cyclones' ability to remove it from the air-stream). Gave it a
> thorough rinse under the tap, dried it out in the airing cupboard, and
> it's working much better now - it even sucks!

:-)

On some (I have one built from a collection of DC59 and V6 parts) there are
two filters: one in front of the motor (rod filter that goes down the middle
of the cyclone) and there's also a post-motor filter. On the HEPA filter
versions it twists off as a separate piece, on the non-HEPA ones it's just
some foam inside the plastic casing where the air exhausts. If you didn't
get the post-motor filter it's worth doing that one too.

The standard advice is to let it dry for 24 hours before reinserting,
because apparently any dampness can cause motor damage.

I dislike the plasticy construction (easy to break) but the suction is very
good, as are the accessories, and there are plenty of them out there that
it's easy to get parts or even whole spare machines for not much money.
Especially if you know the trick about shutdown due to a clogged filter as
above :-)

(although they try and stop you interchanging parts from different models
with little plastic tabs - but you can cut those off)

Theo

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: mar...@127.0.0.1 (Mark)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 22:08:48 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mark - Sun, 8 May 2022 22:08 UTC

Jeff Layman wrote:
>
> Anyway, I unsoldered B+ from board, left it for 30 minutes, and
> resoldered it. It's still dead, I'm afraid, so looks like a new vacuum
> is on the cards.
>

If the voltages of the 18650s are ok and you have tested the motor runs ok from an external power source just fit a new BMS
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193539110267

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 08:05:16 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Mon, 9 May 2022 07:05 UTC

On 08/05/2022 23:08, Mark wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, I unsoldered B+ from board, left it for 30 minutes, and
>> resoldered it. It's still dead, I'm afraid, so looks like a new vacuum
>> is on the cards.
>>
>
> If the voltages of the 18650s are ok and you have tested the motor runs ok from an external power source just fit a new BMS
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193539110267

The problem is space and shape. As you can see from the third link in my
OP the battery pack is curved, and the BMS PCB is curved to fit it.
There is almost no space outside to fit anything, even something like
the one you linked to or others on eBay.

--

Jeff

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: davew...@yahoo.co.uk (Dave W)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 21:28:23 +0100
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 by: Dave W - Mon, 9 May 2022 20:28 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 19:10:01 +0100, Jeff Layman
<jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>to see what was underneath. It was a rather complicated little board -
>see <https://ibb.co/Gsd38Qt>. Testing the cells before they connected to
>the circuit showed they were fully charged at 18V. It was only after the
>+ve lead entered the board that the voltage dropped. I examined the
>components with a 10x loupe, but there was nothing obviously faulty.
But did you examine the soldering on the thick wires? There is a
condition where big components get shaken in the factory after being
soldered but before the solder completely sets, because they retain
heat. Years later, a circular crack appears round the joint,
disconnecting it. It's suspicious that the fault only appeared after
you had moved things about.
--
Dave W

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 11:21:55 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Layman - Tue, 10 May 2022 10:21 UTC

On 09/05/2022 21:28, Dave W wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2022 19:10:01 +0100, Jeff Layman
> <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> to see what was underneath. It was a rather complicated little board -
>> see <https://ibb.co/Gsd38Qt>. Testing the cells before they connected to
>> the circuit showed they were fully charged at 18V. It was only after the
>> +ve lead entered the board that the voltage dropped. I examined the
>> components with a 10x loupe, but there was nothing obviously faulty.
>
> But did you examine the soldering on the thick wires? There is a
> condition where big components get shaken in the factory after being
> soldered but before the solder completely sets, because they retain
> heat. Years later, a circular crack appears round the joint,
> disconnecting it. It's suspicious that the fault only appeared after
> you had moved things about.

The vacuum cleaner had been working perfectly for over 5 years. It
hadn't even shown the odd hiccup in use. As it happens, to test whether
the battery pack worked directly with the motor I had to unsolder one of
the thick wire connections (B+) from the PCB. I couldn't see anything
wrong with it or B-, and, as the circuit went through the on/off switch,
I assume all the soldered joints were fine as the motor worked.

I've got to look at it again to see if any of the BMS PCBs available on
eBay or elsewhere might fit somewhere else in the case, but I doubt it.

--

Jeff

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 11:29:43 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 10 May 2022 10:29 UTC

On 10/05/2022 11:21, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 21:28, Dave W wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 19:10:01 +0100, Jeff Layman
>> <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> to see what was underneath. It was a rather complicated little board -
>>> see <https://ibb.co/Gsd38Qt>. Testing the cells before they connected to
>>> the circuit showed they were fully charged at 18V. It was only after the
>>> +ve lead entered the board that the voltage dropped. I examined the
>>> components with a 10x loupe, but there was nothing obviously faulty.
>>
>> But did you examine the soldering on the thick wires? There is a
>> condition where big components get shaken in the factory after being
>> soldered but before the solder completely sets, because they retain
>> heat. Years later, a circular crack appears round the joint,
>> disconnecting it. It's suspicious that the fault only appeared after
>> you had moved things about.
>
> The vacuum cleaner had been working perfectly for over 5 years. It
> hadn't even shown the odd hiccup in use. As it happens, to test whether
> the battery pack worked directly with the motor I had to unsolder one of
> the thick wire connections (B+) from the PCB. I couldn't see anything
> wrong with it or B-, and, as the circuit went through the on/off switch,
> I assume all the soldered joints were fine as the motor worked.
>
> I've got to look at it again to see if any of the BMS PCBs available on
> eBay or elsewhere might fit somewhere else in the case, but I doubt it.
>
They might prove a source of components to repair the one you have.

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner

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From: cli...@nowaytoday.co.uk (Clive Arthur)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 11:50:06 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Clive Arthur - Tue, 10 May 2022 10:50 UTC

On 07/05/2022 19:10, Jeff Layman wrote:

<snipped>

> Hoover Jovis+

Get a cheap broken one from Ebay, eg...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284799274660?epid=512606087&hash=item424f5c0ea4:g:oM8AAOSwnohiJ6sC

--
Cheers
Clive

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Examining a faulty handheld vacuum cleaner
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 21:38:01 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Tue, 10 May 2022 20:38 UTC

On 10/05/2022 11:50, Clive Arthur wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 19:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
>> Hoover Jovis+
>
> Get a cheap broken one from Ebay, eg...
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284799274660?epid=512606087&hash=item424f5c0ea4:g:oM8AAOSwnohiJ6sC

That's unfortunately a corded vacuum cleaner. But I did find an 18V one
of interest. Hoover gave the same name - Jovis - to li ion, NiMH, and
even mains corded vacuum cleaners!

--

Jeff

1
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rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor