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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Re: OT Pronunciation

SubjectAuthor
* OT PronunciationARW
+* Re: OT PronunciationGB
|+* Re: OT PronunciationColin Bignell
||+- Re: OT PronunciationRob H
||+* Re: OT PronunciationTim Streater
|||+- Re: OT PronunciationColin Bignell
|||`- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
||`- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
|+- Re: OT PronunciationS Viemeister
|+* Re: OT PronunciationJock
||+- Re: OT PronunciationRichard
||`* Re: OT PronunciationJohn Armstrong
|| +- Re: OT PronunciationS Viemeister
|| +- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
|| `* Re: OT PronunciationIan Jackson
||  +* Re: OT PronunciationJock
||  |+* Re: OT PronunciationFredxx
||  ||`- Re: OT PronunciationRichard
||  |`- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
||  `* Re: OT PronunciationThe Natural Philosopher
||   `* Re: OT PronunciationNY
||    +- Re: OT PronunciationThe Natural Philosopher
||    `- Re: OT Pronunciationwilliamwright
|+* Re: OT PronunciationThe Natural Philosopher
||+- Re: OT PronunciationJock
||`- Re: OT PronunciationAndrew
|`* Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
| +* Re: OT PronunciationJock
| |`- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
| `* Re: OT PronunciationColin Bignell
|  +* Re: OT PronunciationRobin
|  |`* Re: OT PronunciationColin Bignell
|  | `* Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
|  |  `* Re: OT PronunciationColin Bignell
|  |   +* Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
|  |   |`- Re: OT PronunciationNY
|  |   +- Re: OT Pronunciationwilliamwright
|  |   `* Re: OT PronunciationClive Arthur
|  |    `- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
|  +* Re: OT PronunciationRod Speed
|  |+- Re: OT PronunciationRod Speed
|  |`* Re: OT PronunciationNY
|  | +- Re: OT PronunciationRod Speed
|  | `* Re: OT PronunciationCustos Custodum
|  |  `* Re: OT PronunciationNY
|  |   `* Re: OT PronunciationFredxx
|  |    `* Re: OT PronunciationMax Demian
|  |     `* Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
|  |      `* Re: OT PronunciationThe Natural Philosopher
|  |       `* Re: OT PronunciationFredxx
|  |        +* Re: OT PronunciationThe Natural Philosopher
|  |        |`* Re: OT PronunciationFredxx
|  |        | +- Re: OT PronunciationSteve Walker
|  |        | +- Re: OT PronunciationRod Speed
|  |        | `- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
|  |        `- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
|  `- Re: OT PronunciationJNugent
+* Re: OT Pronunciationwilliamwright
|+- Re: OT PronunciationAndy Burns
|`- Re: OT PronunciationAndrew
+- Re: OT PronunciationHarry Bloomfield Esq
+- Re: OT PronunciationOwain Lastname
`- Re: OT PronunciationCustos Custodum

Pages:123
Re: OT Pronunciation

<jdscuaFa2bgU2@mid.individual.net>

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 12:40:56 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Mon, 9 May 2022 11:40 UTC

williamwright wrote:

> ARW wrote:
>
>> Ncuti Gatwa
>
>  “The future is here,” proclaimed the BBC. It most certainly is.

He could have had the decency to wear a bra to the BAFTAs

Re: OT Pronunciation

<c42i7hh1c14bnie7jalk0tuemr052oir4q@4ax.com>

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From: me...@privacy.net (Custos Custodum)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 13:29:36 +0100
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 by: Custos Custodum - Mon, 9 May 2022 12:29 UTC

On Sun, 8 May 2022 17:49:00 +0100, ARW
<adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>How to pronounce Ncuti Gatwa’s name.
>
>Ncuti Gatwa’s name is not pronounced as you see it written down. Ncuti
>is actually pronounced ‘Shoo-ti’, while Gatwa is simply 'Gat-wa".
>
>Bloody Scots and their pronunciations.

I realise you were being facetious but isn't that a bit of an own
goal, given the calamitous state of English spelling?

Re: OT Pronunciation

<t5b4k3$14fe$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 14:23:15 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Mon, 9 May 2022 13:23 UTC

On 08/05/2022 23:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 19:29, GB wrote:
>> On 08/05/2022 17:49, ARW wrote:
>>> How to pronounce Ncuti Gatwa’s name.
>>>
>>> Ncuti Gatwa’s name is not pronounced as you see it written down.
>>> Ncuti is actually pronounced ‘Shoo-ti’, while Gatwa is simply 'Gat-wa".
>>
>> I wonder why Ncuti is transliterated like that if it's not pronounced
>> like that?
>>
>> For many years Beijing was written down as Peking. Why?
>>
>>
> I suspect its actually pronounced baych-ing
> B and P are not differentiated in many languages

There are phonetic 'n's and 'm's in Fijian.

The international airport is at Nadi which is the
correct spelling but it is pronounced NaNdi and
most clueless tourists write it down as Nandi too.

Ditto a town called Ba, spoken as Mba (Mmmm-bar).

Re: OT Pronunciation

<t5b4pa$14fe$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 14:26:02 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Mon, 9 May 2022 13:26 UTC

On 08/05/2022 21:57, williamwright wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 17:49, ARW wrote:
>> Ncuti Gatwa
>
>
>  “The future is here,” proclaimed the BBC. It most certainly is.
>
> Bill

Since Doctor Who is filmed in and around Cardiff, I'm surprised the
BBC could not have found someone from the multi-cultural
population of Cardiff that Welsh Socialists have created there.

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: jennings...@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 17:18:18 +0100
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 by: JNugent - Mon, 9 May 2022 16:18 UTC

On 09/05/2022 02:38 am, Jock wrote:

> JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> GB wrote:
>>> ARW wrote:
>
>>>> How to pronounce Ncuti Gatwa’s name.
>>>> Ncuti Gatwa’s name is not pronounced as you see it written down.
>>>> Ncuti is actually pronounced ‘Shoo-ti’, while Gatwa is simply 'Gat-wa".
>
>> Why does it matter?

No-one thinks it *does* matter, obviously.

>>> I wonder why Ncuti is transliterated like that if it's not pronounced
>>> like that?
>>>  For many years Beijing was written down as Peking. Why?
>
>> It wasn't "Beijing" that was written down as "Peking".
>> It was something in Chinese characters
>
> No, most of the inhabitants didn't read or write when the english showed
> up.

They don't all have to have been able to read and write. That there was
an educated class was all that was necessary.

>> (probably Mandarin, I expect)
>
> No, Cantonese.

Fair enough (if that's the case).

>> which was written in Latin characters as "Peking".
>
> No, that came later.

Of course it did!

>> It still isn't clear to me why there was any perceived need to change it.
>
> Because the chinese kicked the english and various others out.

That was decades ago. We still called the capital "Peking" long after that.

We still call China "China", BTW. And India "India".

> PS: Google.co.uk still finds a LOT of "Peking Chinese Restaurant"
>> businesses all over the UK. The proprietors don't seem to mind.

Re: OT Pronunciation

<jdst72Fd75sU2@mid.individual.net>

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From: jennings...@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
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 by: JNugent - Mon, 9 May 2022 16:18 UTC

On 09/05/2022 08:37 am, John Armstrong wrote:
> On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:41:57 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Because you poms mangled the pronounciation.....
>
> Always amuses me to see people pontificating about pronunciation, when
> they can't even spell the word.

:-)

Re: OT Pronunciation

<jdstg6Fd9uqU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: jennings...@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
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 by: JNugent - Mon, 9 May 2022 16:23 UTC

On 09/05/2022 08:41 am, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 01:40, JNugent wrote:
>> On 08/05/2022 07:29 pm, GB wrote:
>>> On 08/05/2022 17:49, ARW wrote:
>>>> How to pronounce Ncuti Gatwa’s name.
>
>>>> Ncuti Gatwa’s name is not pronounced as you see it written down.
>>>> Ncuti is actually pronounced ‘Shoo-ti’, while Gatwa is simply 'Gat-wa".
>
>> Why does it matter?
>
>>> I wonder why Ncuti is transliterated like that if it's not pronounced
>>> like that?
>
>>> For many years Beijing was written down as Peking. Why?
>
>> It wasn't "Beijing" that was written down as "Peking".
>> It was something in Chinese characters (probably Mandarin, I expect)
>> which was written in Latin characters as "Peking".
>> It still isn't clear to me why there was any perceived need to change it.
>
> Because, as you say, written Chinese is Mandarin. Since the 1950s, the
> UN has recognised PinYin as the way to transcribe written Chinese into
> the Latin alphabet. The written name transcribes to Beijing, hence that
> is the internationally recognised way to spell it in Latin characters.

But why is that the slightest bit important?

There are a number of countries which we call by their names in English.
How those names first came about is of no real importance.

We don't call India "Bharat", do we? What does the UN have to say about
that?

Or Germany "Deutschland"?

Japan, Russia, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden... etc.

> The same thing has happened in other places where the native language is
> not written in Latin characters, notably India.

....where the English name is still "India".

>> PS: Google.co.uk still finds a LOT of "Peking Chinese Restaurant"
>> businesses all over the UK. The proprietors don't seem to mind.

> They probably speak Cantonese and Peking is how the name is pronounced
> in Cantonese.

And why should one be preferred over the other?

Re: OT Pronunciation

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 by: JNugent - Mon, 9 May 2022 16:24 UTC

On 09/05/2022 10:24 am, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 09:19, Robin wrote:
>> On 09/05/2022 08:41, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 09/05/2022 01:40, JNugent wrote:
>>>> On 08/05/2022 07:29 pm, GB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 08/05/2022 17:49, ARW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> How to pronounce Ncuti Gatwa’s name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ncuti Gatwa’s name is not pronounced as you see it written down.
>>>>>> Ncuti is actually pronounced ‘Shoo-ti’, while Gatwa is simply
>>>>>> 'Gat-wa".
>>>>
>>>> Why does it matter?
>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why Ncuti is transliterated like that if it's not
>>>>> pronounced like that?
>>>>>
>>>>> For many years Beijing was written down as Peking. Why?
>>>>
>>>> It wasn't "Beijing" that was written down as "Peking".
>>>>
>>>> It was something in Chinese characters (probably Mandarin, I expect)
>>>> which was written in Latin characters as "Peking".
>>>>
>>>> It still isn't clear to me why there was any perceived need to
>>>> change it.
>>>
>>> Because, as you say, written Chinese is Mandarin. Since the 1950s,
>>> the UN has recognised PinYin as the way to transcribe written Chinese
>>> into the Latin alphabet. The written name transcribes to Beijing,
>>> hence that is the internationally recognised way to spell it in Latin
>>> characters.
>>>
>>> The same thing has happened in other places where the native language
>>> is not written in Latin characters, notably India.
>>>
>>
>> and let's not forget Ukraine & Kyiv
>>
>
> At least the Cyrillic alphabet is more or less phonetic, so transcribing
> into the Latin alphabet is simpler. As with Greek, it makes reading road
> signs possible, as you can work out what the word on the road sign
> sounds like.

Some of us did Greek (the ancient variety, admittedly) at school.

It has come in handy once or twice.

Re: OT Pronunciation

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Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 17:53:23 +0100
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 by: NY - Mon, 9 May 2022 16:53 UTC

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:op.1lv9sc17byq249@pvr2.lan...
>> Because, as you say, written Chinese is Mandarin. Since the 1950s, the
>> UN has recognised PinYin as the way to transcribe written Chinese into
>> the Latin alphabet. The written name transcribes to Beijing, hence that
>> is the internationally recognised way to spell it in Latin characters.
>>
>> The same thing has happened in other places where the native language is
>> not written in Latin characters, notably India.
>
> Doesnt explain Paris, Germany, Switzerland, Finland etc etc etc.

Germany is an interesting one, because there are a lot of different names
used in different (European) languages:

German Deutschland
English Germany (and Italian is Germania)
French Allemagne (and Spanish is Alemania)
Swedish Tyskland (ditto Norwegian and Danish)
Icelandic Þýskalandi (similar to Swedish/Norwegian/Danish name)
Finnish Saska
Polish Niemcy
Hungarian Németország (may be related to Polish name)

Is there any other country which has so many different names, in addition to
the one that the country calls itself?

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: cpb...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk (Colin Bignell)
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 by: Colin Bignell - Mon, 9 May 2022 17:16 UTC

On 09/05/2022 17:24, JNugent wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 10:24 am, Colin Bignell wrote:
....
>> At least the Cyrillic alphabet is more or less phonetic, so
>> transcribing into the Latin alphabet is simpler. As with Greek, it
>> makes reading road signs possible, as you can work out what the word
>> on the road sign sounds like.
>
> Some of us did Greek (the ancient variety, admittedly) at school.
>
> It has come in handy once or twice.

It was Latin in my school. According to a pretty Greek nurse I dated a
few times, ancient Greek is quite different from modern Greek. Then
again, my Saxon is not that good and that was a lot later.

--
Colin Bignell

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 05:19:07 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Mon, 9 May 2022 19:19 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 02:53:23 +1000, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:op.1lv9sc17byq249@pvr2.lan...
>>> Because, as you say, written Chinese is Mandarin. Since the 1950s, the
>>> UN has recognised PinYin as the way to transcribe written Chinese into
>>> the Latin alphabet. The written name transcribes to Beijing, hence
>>> that is the internationally recognised way to spell it in Latin
>>> characters.
>>>
>>> The same thing has happened in other places where the native language
>>> is not written in Latin characters, notably India.
>>
>> Doesnt explain Paris, Germany, Switzerland, Finland etc etc etc.
>
>
> Germany is an interesting one, because there are a lot of different
> names used in different (European) languages:
>
> German Deutschland
> English Germany (and Italian is Germania)
> French Allemagne (and Spanish is Alemania)
> Swedish Tyskland (ditto Norwegian and Danish)
> Icelandic Þýskalandi (similar to Swedish/Norwegian/Danish name)
> Finnish Saska
> Polish Niemcy
> Hungarian Németország (may be related to Polish name)

Fark. didn't realise that it was as bad as that. Wonder how
that came about, presumably because it has borders with
so many countrys and became the one country much later
than most of the others in western europe.

Must be a real bugger for krauts country surfing by air
tho I spose the flight board things just list the city name.

> Is there any other country which has so many different names, in
> addition to the one that the country calls itself?

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: ianREMOV...@g3ohx.co.uk (Ian Jackson)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 21:23:22 +0100
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 by: Ian Jackson - Mon, 9 May 2022 20:23 UTC

In message <u1hh7hd8bj8rfgke0krhrta9fflisag34n@4ax.com>, John Armstrong
<jja@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:41:57 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Because you poms mangled the pronounciation.....
>
>Always amuses me to see people pontificating about pronunciation, when
>they can't even spell the word.

And even if they can, they STILL pronounce it "pronounciation"
(including the BBC Pronunciation Department).
--
Ian

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: kdj...@gmail.com (Jock)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 07:27:28 +1000
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 by: Jock - Mon, 9 May 2022 21:27 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 06:23:22 +1000, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <u1hh7hd8bj8rfgke0krhrta9fflisag34n@4ax.com>, John Armstrong
> <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>> On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:41:57 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Because you poms mangled the pronounciation.....
>>
>> Always amuses me to see people pontificating about pronunciation, when
>> they can't even spell the word.

That was the spelling checker, stupid.

> And even if they can, they STILL pronounce it "pronounciation"

I don't.

> (including the BBC Pronunciation Department).

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: fre...@spam.uk (Fredxx)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 22:32:05 +0100
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 by: Fredxx - Mon, 9 May 2022 21:32 UTC

On 09/05/2022 22:27, Jock wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 06:23:22 +1000, Ian Jackson
> <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <u1hh7hd8bj8rfgke0krhrta9fflisag34n@4ax.com>, John
>> Armstrong <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>> On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:41:57 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Because you poms mangled the pronounciation.....
>>>
>>> Always amuses me to see people pontificating about pronunciation, when
>>> they can't even spell the word.
>
> That was the spelling checker, stupid.

Only a stupid arsehole could blame a spell checker for their poor spelling.

>> And even if they can, they STILL pronounce it "pronounciation"
>
> I don't.

No, you probably don't.

>> (including the BBC Pronunciation Department).

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: smith...@btinternet.com.invalid (Richard)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 06:24:04 +0100
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 by: Richard - Tue, 10 May 2022 05:24 UTC

On 09/05/2022 22:32, Fredxx wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 22:27, Jock wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 06:23:22 +1000, Ian Jackson
>> <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u1hh7hd8bj8rfgke0krhrta9fflisag34n@4ax.com>, John
>>> Armstrong <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:41:57 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Because you poms mangled the pronounciation.....
>>>>
>>>> Always amuses me to see people pontificating about pronunciation, when
>>>> they can't even spell the word.
>>
>> That was the spelling checker, stupid.
>
> Only a stupid arsehole

Your rod speed detector is working well...

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: jennings...@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
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 by: JNugent - Tue, 10 May 2022 08:44 UTC

On 09/05/2022 06:16 pm, Colin Bignell wrote:

> On 09/05/2022 17:24, JNugent wrote:
>> On 09/05/2022 10:24 am, Colin Bignell wrote:
> ...
>>> At least the Cyrillic alphabet is more or less phonetic, so
>>> transcribing into the Latin alphabet is simpler. As with Greek, it
>>> makes reading road signs possible, as you can work out what the word
>>> on the road sign sounds like.
>>
>> Some of us did Greek (the ancient variety, admittedly) at school.
>> It has come in handy once or twice.

> It was Latin in my school.

It was both (plus French) in mine.

> According to a pretty Greek nurse I dated a
> few times, ancient Greek is quite different from modern Greek. Then
> again, my Saxon is not that good and that was a lot later.

It has still come in handy.

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From: jennings...@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
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 by: JNugent - Tue, 10 May 2022 08:45 UTC

On 09/05/2022 10:27 pm, Jock wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 06:23:22 +1000, Ian Jackson
> <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <u1hh7hd8bj8rfgke0krhrta9fflisag34n@4ax.com>, John
>> Armstrong <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>> On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:41:57 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Because you poms mangled the pronounciation.....
>>>
>>> Always amuses me to see people pontificating about pronunciation, when
>>> they can't even spell the word.
>
> That was the spelling checker, stupid.

Your spellchecker spells words incorrectly?

What's the point of that?

You might as well switch it off.
>
>> And even if they can, they STILL pronounce it "pronounciation"
>
> I don't.
>
>> (including the BBC Pronunciation Department).

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 09:57:41 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 10 May 2022 08:57 UTC

On 09/05/2022 21:23, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <u1hh7hd8bj8rfgke0krhrta9fflisag34n@4ax.com>, John Armstrong
> <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>> On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:41:57 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Because you poms mangled the pronounciation.....
>>
>> Always amuses me to see people pontificating about pronunciation, when
>> they can't even spell the word.
>
> And even if they can, they STILL pronounce it "pronounciation"
> (including the BBC Pronunciation Department).
I've noticed that modern UK nationals on the media still don't know when
to use a plural verb form and are now saying "New Kew Leer power"..

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

Re: OT Pronunciation

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 by: NY - Tue, 10 May 2022 09:16 UTC

"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:jdumutFnhlmU4@mid.individual.net...
> On 09/05/2022 06:16 pm, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>> On 09/05/2022 17:24, JNugent wrote:
>>> On 09/05/2022 10:24 am, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> ...
>>>> At least the Cyrillic alphabet is more or less phonetic, so
>>>> transcribing into the Latin alphabet is simpler. As with Greek, it
>>>> makes reading road signs possible, as you can work out what the word on
>>>> the road sign sounds like.
>>>
>>> Some of us did Greek (the ancient variety, admittedly) at school.
>>> It has come in handy once or twice.
>
>> It was Latin in my school.
>
> It was both (plus French) in mine.
>
>> According to a pretty Greek nurse I dated a few times, ancient Greek is
>> quite different from modern Greek. Then again, my Saxon is not that good
>> and that was a lot later.
>
> It has still come in handy.

My school taught Latin and German to one form and Biology and Ancient
History to the other form in each year. Everyone did French.

I found Latin considerably harder to learn than French and German, and I
think the reasons were:

- no articles (the/a) and no pronouns (he/she), to indicate "there now
follows a noun/verb)
- no prepositions (to/from) - everything is communicated by noun endings
- less rigid word order (you can't rely on the adjective that qualifies a
noun being just after (French) or just before (German, as for English)

Evidently I relied on these as "pointers" in French and German (the capital
letter on German nouns is a very big giveaway!!!).

I found it almost impossible to look at a Latin sentence and to work out
which words were nouns, which were adjectives and which were verbs, and
having found a noun, to decypher the word ending to give the implied
preposition.

The problem with the teaching of Latin was the fact that it was taught as a
grammatical language. It would have been much better if it had been taught
as "Latin as the derivation of many English words" without the grammar and
impenetrable mess of word endings that took the place (in English) of
auxiliary words like articles, pronouns, prepositions etc.

The German rule about the primary verb going at the end of the sentence when
there is an auxiliary verb ("ich kann mein Buch nicht finden" / "ich habe
mein Buch gefunden" - "I cannot my book find" / "I have my book found")
seemed to be fairly easy to grasp compared with the random word order in
Latin where sometimes they actually made a *virtue* out of putting the
adjective for the subject noun near the object noun and vice versa - the
dreaded "chi-rhoic construction" that my Latin teacher raved about.

I remember being asked to translate into Latin, and was criticised for
putting the words in English order: the rule seemed to be "you can use any
order you like... except the English order.

I would much rather have been able to learn German and Biology, but that
combination was not allowed because of timetable clashes. By the time I
changed to another school (when we moved house) the new school had no
problem with me doing biology... except that by then I'd missed too many of
the early years of the O level syllabus to be able to catch up, so I had to
continue with Latin. I'd have been buggered if I'd wanted to do medicine or
pharmacy at university :-(

Re: OT Pronunciation

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Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
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 by: NY - Tue, 10 May 2022 09:31 UTC

"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:t5d9e5$rv6$2@dont-email.me...
> On 09/05/2022 21:23, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> In message <u1hh7hd8bj8rfgke0krhrta9fflisag34n@4ax.com>, John Armstrong
>> <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>> On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:41:57 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Because you poms mangled the pronounciation.....
>>>
>>> Always amuses me to see people pontificating about pronunciation, when
>>> they can't even spell the word.
>>
>> And even if they can, they STILL pronounce it "pronounciation" (including
>> the BBC Pronunciation Department).
> I've noticed that modern UK nationals on the media still don't know when
> to use a plural verb form and are now saying "New Kew Leer power"..

There are so many words that are pronounced wrongly: "am-blee-ance"
(ambulance), "diptheria/opthalmic" (diphtheria/ophthalmic - so the first
syllable is "diff" or "off"), "kill-OM-i-tah" (instead of KILLoMEtre). I
accept that I'm probably in the minority with kilometre: I noticed in a
science series that Brian Cox presented, he mainly used the "modern",
"trendy" pronunciation, as if that is what his director had told him to do,
but occasionally lapsed into the logical scientific/engineering
pronunciation that he had learned at school./university where every SI
prefix has the stress on the first syllable and every unit has the stress on
the first syllable. I've even heard people try to justify the trendy
pronunciation on the grounds that the distance figures in a car are shown on
a mile-OM-eter so the metric unit of distance should be the same - duh,
"meter" in the first is the device for measuring/displaying distance,
whereas "metre" in the second is the SI unit of distance. I suppose the
American spelling "meter" for the unit of distance doesn't exactly help!! At
university, one of our lecturers switched between the two pronunciations
"KILLoMEtre" in scientific/engineering contexts, but "killOMiTAH" for
everyday references (eg as the metric equivalent of mile).

As regards single/plural form of verb: there is the problem that rules and
usage change as to whether a group of people is singular or plural: is it
"the government have decided" or "the government has decided"?

Re: OT Pronunciation

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 11:28:56 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 10 May 2022 10:28 UTC

On 10/05/2022 10:31, NY wrote:
> As regards single/plural form of verb: there is the problem that rules
> and usage change as to whether a group of people is singular or plural:
> is it "the government have decided" or "the government has decided"?

No, its not just that, I've heard blatant examples of essentially what
amounts to 'we is/they is' type constructions.

I.e. "climate deniers *is* the real problem". It seems that the verb
case is associated with the *object*, not the *subject*.

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

Re: OT Pronunciation

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Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
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 by: Custos Custodum - Tue, 10 May 2022 15:15 UTC

On Mon, 9 May 2022 17:53:23 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:op.1lv9sc17byq249@pvr2.lan...
>>> Because, as you say, written Chinese is Mandarin. Since the 1950s, the
>>> UN has recognised PinYin as the way to transcribe written Chinese into
>>> the Latin alphabet. The written name transcribes to Beijing, hence that
>>> is the internationally recognised way to spell it in Latin characters.
>>>
>>> The same thing has happened in other places where the native language is
>>> not written in Latin characters, notably India.
>>
>> Doesnt explain Paris, Germany, Switzerland, Finland etc etc etc.
>
>
>Germany is an interesting one, because there are a lot of different names
>used in different (European) languages:
>
>German Deutschland
>English Germany (and Italian is Germania)

And to add to the confusion, the Italian for "German" is "tedesco".

>French Allemagne (and Spanish is Alemania)
>Swedish Tyskland (ditto Norwegian and Danish)
>Icelandic Þýskalandi (similar to Swedish/Norwegian/Danish name)
>Finnish Saska
>Polish Niemcy
>Hungarian Németország (may be related to Polish name)
>
>Is there any other country which has so many different names, in addition to
>the one that the country calls itself?

Re: OT Pronunciation

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 by: NY - Tue, 10 May 2022 16:23 UTC

"Custos Custodum" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:480l7h5e2erqfnel469d75kmlg67jnih92@4ax.com...
>>English Germany (and Italian is Germania)
>
> And to add to the confusion, the Italian for "German" is "tedesco".

So in Italian the name of the country and the adjective for the language
and/or person/thing from the country are completely different to each other?

Mind you, the same thing happens in English: the country whose capital is
Amsterdam is called The Netherlands (or, wrongly, Holland) but the language
and adjective are Dutch.

Re: OT Pronunciation

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 by: Fredxx - Tue, 10 May 2022 18:18 UTC

On 10/05/2022 17:23, NY wrote:
> "Custos Custodum" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:480l7h5e2erqfnel469d75kmlg67jnih92@4ax.com...
>>> English    Germany (and Italian is Germania)
>>
>> And to add to the confusion, the Italian for "German" is "tedesco".
>
> So in Italian the name of the country and the adjective for the language
> and/or person/thing from the country are completely different to each
> other?
>
> Mind you, the same thing happens in English: the country whose capital
> is Amsterdam is called The Netherlands (or, wrongly, Holland) but the
> language and adjective are Dutch.

Are you certain? I thought The Hague was the capital of the Netherlands
as well as the provincial capital of South Holland?

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Subject: Re: OT Pronunciation
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From: max_dem...@bigfoot.com (Max Demian)
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 by: Max Demian - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:22 UTC

On 10/05/2022 19:18, Fredxx wrote:
> On 10/05/2022 17:23, NY wrote:
>> "Custos Custodum" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:480l7h5e2erqfnel469d75kmlg67jnih92@4ax.com...
>>>> English    Germany (and Italian is Germania)
>>>
>>> And to add to the confusion, the Italian for "German" is "tedesco".
>>
>> So in Italian the name of the country and the adjective for the
>> language and/or person/thing from the country are completely different
>> to each other?
>>
>> Mind you, the same thing happens in English: the country whose capital
>> is Amsterdam is called The Netherlands (or, wrongly, Holland) but the
>> language and adjective are Dutch.
>
> Are you certain? I thought The Hague was the capital of the Netherlands
> as well as the provincial capital of South Holland?

The Hague is the administrative capital; Amsterdam is the financial
capital. Like Washington vs New York. Or Westminster and (City of) London.

--
Max Demian

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