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Laetrile is the pits.


aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Re: Socialism starts...

SubjectAuthor
* Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Socialism starts...Brian
|+* Re: Socialism starts...GB
||+* Re: Socialism starts...Colin Bignell
|||`- Re: Socialism starts...Rod Speed
||+* Re: Socialism starts...Richard
|||+* Re: Socialism starts...Max Demian
||||+* Re: Socialism starts...Richard
|||||`* Re: Socialism starts...Jock
||||| `* Re: Socialism starts...Richard
|||||  `- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
||||+* Re: Socialism starts...Andy Burns
|||||`* Re: Socialism starts...Chris Hogg
||||| `* Re: Socialism starts...GB
|||||  `* Re: Socialism starts...Jock
|||||   `* Re: Socialism starts...GB
|||||    `- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
||||`- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
|||+* Re: Socialism starts...GB
||||`* Re: Socialism starts...Richard
|||| +* Re: Socialism starts...GB
|||| |`* Re: Socialism starts...Richard
|||| | +* Re: Socialism starts...GB
|||| | |`* Re: Socialism starts...Richard
|||| | | `- Re: Socialism starts...Rod Speed
|||| | `- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
|||| `* Re: Socialism starts...Jock
||||  `* Re: Socialism starts...Max Demian
||||   +- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
||||   `* Re: Socialism starts...Dave Plowman (News)
||||    `* Re: Socialism starts...williamwright
||||     +- Re: Socialism starts...Rod Speed
||||     `* Re: Socialism starts...Dave Plowman (News)
||||      `- Re: Socialism starts...#Paul
|||`* Re: Socialism starts...Andrew
||| `- Re: Socialism starts...JNugent
||`* Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
|| `* Re: Socialism starts...Jock
||  `* Re: Socialism starts...Richard
||   `- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
|`* Re: Socialism starts...Jock
| `- Re: Socialism starts...Brian
+* Re: Socialism starts...Chris Hogg
|+- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
|`* Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
| `* Re: Socialism starts...Richard
|  `- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
+* Re: Socialism starts...Jock
|`* Re: Socialism starts...Max Demian
| `- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
+* Re: Socialism starts...Adrian Caspersz
|`* Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: Socialism starts...GB
| |+- Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
| |`* Re: Socialism starts...Jock
| | `- Re: Socialism starts...Richard
| `- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
`* Re: Socialism starts...Lew
 `* Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
  `* Re: Socialism starts...Lew
   `* Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
    +* Re: Socialism starts...Lew
    |`* Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
    | +- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
    | `* Re: Socialism starts...Lew
    |  `* Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
    |   +* Re: Socialism starts...Fredxx
    |   |+* Re: Socialism starts...Dave Plowman (News)
    |   ||`- Re: Socialism starts...Jock
    |   |`* Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher
    |   | `* Re: Socialism starts...lacksey
    |   |  `- Re: Socialism starts...Richard
    |   `* Re: Socialism starts...lacksey
    |    `- Re: Socialism starts...Richard
    +* Re: Socialism starts...Jock
    |`- Re: Socialism starts...Richard
    `* Re: Socialism starts...Fredxx
     `- Re: Socialism starts...The Natural Philosopher

Pages:1234
Re: Socialism starts...

<op.1lw00wdyc5duzs@pvr2.lan>

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From: kdj...@gmail.com (Jock)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 05:13:34 +1000
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 by: Jock - Mon, 9 May 2022 19:13 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 02:51:52 +1000, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
wrote:

> On 09/05/2022 13:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> Interesting. This story first got wings in a left leaning newspaper in
>>> Sydney.
>>>
>>> https://ground.news/article/zimbabweans-boil-used-nappies-to-get-high
>>>
>>> Did the telegraph write their own bias into it, or have you read into
>>> it something else that they have missed?
>>>
>>> If things are going to crap, is it always socialism behind it?
>>>
>> Usually, yes...
>>
>
> As I can't find any other evidence of nappies making people high,

Likely because only a completely bankrupt and fucked state would
need to boil up used nappys and drink the result to get high.

> I'd tentatively suggest that this story might be a hoax?

Much more likely that it isn't.

Re: Socialism starts...

<t5cspf$ink$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: smith...@btinternet.com.invalid (Richard)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 06:21:51 +0100
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 by: Richard - Tue, 10 May 2022 05:21 UTC

On 09/05/2022 20:13, Jock wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 02:51:52 +1000, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 09/05/2022 13:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>> Interesting. This story first got wings in a left leaning newspaper
>>>> in Sydney.
>>>>
>>>> https://ground.news/article/zimbabweans-boil-used-nappies-to-get-high
>>>>
>>>> Did the telegraph write their own bias into it, or have you read
>>>> into it something else that they have missed?
>>>>
>>>> If things are going to crap, is it always socialism behind it?
>>>>
>>>  Usually, yes...
>>>
>>
>> As I can't find any other evidence of nappies making people high,
>
> Likely because only a completely bankrupt and fucked state would
> need to boil up used nappys and drink the result to get high.

It's not the state boiling them, you knob. Bit like saying the Aussie
government is retarded just because you are.

>
>> I'd tentatively suggest that this story might be a hoax?
>
> Much more likely that it isn't.

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 09:58:23 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 10 May 2022 08:58 UTC

On 09/05/2022 19:54, Lew wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that it
>> ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has shown that
>> true communism is a whole new level below that...
>
> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established communism.
>
>
I think you will find many have

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: lew...@none.org (Lew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 10:58:13 +0100
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 by: Lew - Tue, 10 May 2022 09:58 UTC

On 10/05/2022 09:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 19:54, Lew wrote:
>> On 08/05/2022 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that it
>>> ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has shown that
>>> true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>
>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established communism.
>>
>>
> I think you will find many have

Name one.

--
Lew

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 11:23:25 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 10 May 2022 10:23 UTC

On 10/05/2022 10:58, Lew wrote:
> On 10/05/2022 09:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/05/2022 19:54, Lew wrote:
>>> On 08/05/2022 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that it
>>>> ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has shown
>>>> that true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>
>>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established communism.
>>>
>>>
>> I think you will find many have
>
> Name one.
>
>
Russia China, Zimbabwe Cuba China...

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: lew...@none.org (Lew)
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Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
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 by: Lew - Tue, 10 May 2022 11:14 UTC

On 10/05/2022 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that it
>>>>> ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has shown
>>>>> that true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>>
>>>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established communism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I think you will find many have
>>
>> Name one.
>>
>>
> Russia China, Zimbabwe Cuba China...

None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has Zimbabwe in
your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that means).
Since you are making a claim for something, which I say doesn't exist,
the burden of proof rests with you.

--
Lew

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Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 14:06:54 +0100
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Tue, 10 May 2022 13:06 UTC

In article <tIednQmrFdAKc-X_nZ2dnUU7-L2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>,
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 21:13, Jock wrote:
> > On Mon, 09 May 2022 05:13:13 +1000, Richard
> > <smithski@btinternet.com.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 08/05/2022 19:32, GB wrote:
> >>> On 08/05/2022 16:53, Richard wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> So you actually believe that the whole of the productive land
> >>>> "stolen" by the British was being cultivated?
> >>> Why did you put stolen in quotes? Cecil Rhodes arrived, and he
> >>> machine gunned any natives who objected. Very brave of him, as they
> >>> were heavily armed with spears.
> >
> >> Because it was not stolen.
> >
> > Of course it was. It wasn't bought from or given by the savages.

> Someone would still moan if it had, like they moan that Manhattan Island
> was bought from the natives for $26 dollars (or so) in beads.

Thought native americans had no notion of land ownership. So couldn't sell
what they don't own?

> -

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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From: jennings...@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
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 by: JNugent - Tue, 10 May 2022 16:38 UTC

On 09/05/2022 02:11 pm, Andrew wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 16:53, Richard wrote:
>> On 08/05/2022 15:51, GB wrote:
>>> On 08/05/2022 15:36, Brian wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that it
>>>>> ends
>>>>> up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has shown that true
>>>>> communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/08/desperate-zimbabweans-boiling-nappies-get-high-new-drug-craze/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I confess I haven’t read the article but the mind boggles as to just
>>>> what
>>>> must be in the nappies ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Drug users said that the sodium polyacrylate — the absorbent part of
>>> a nappy — got them high enough to carry on with their grim daily lives"
>>>
>>> This has nothing to do with socialism, though. Mugabe stole 90% of
>>> the productive land, which the British had stolen 150 years earlier,
>>> and gave it to his supporters. Those supporters  mostly had no idea
>>> how to farm: result, poverty.
>>
>> So you actually believe that the whole of the productive land "stolen"
>> by the British was being cultivated?
>> I suppose you believe too that the cities were there too when the
>> nasty British arrived.
>
> Attlee pissed away £1 billion (at todays prices) in trying to
> 'cultivate' parts of Kenya in 1947

Ground nuts?

:-)

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanganyika_groundnut_scheme

Oh yes. Harold Wilson *hated* being reminded about it.

> The rusting remains of old steam rollers can still be found out in
> the bush.

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 by: Jock - Tue, 10 May 2022 20:09 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 20:23:25 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/05/2022 10:58, Lew wrote:
>> On 10/05/2022 09:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/05/2022 19:54, Lew wrote:
>>>> On 08/05/2022 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that it
>>>>> ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has shown
>>>>> that true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>>
>>>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established
>>>> communism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I think you will find many have
>> Name one.
>>
> Russia China, Zimbabwe Cuba China...

Zimbabwe never said that.

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 by: Fredxx - Tue, 10 May 2022 20:15 UTC

On 10/05/2022 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/05/2022 10:58, Lew wrote:
>> On 10/05/2022 09:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/05/2022 19:54, Lew wrote:
>>>> On 08/05/2022 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that it
>>>>> ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has shown
>>>>> that true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>>
>>>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established communism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I think you will find many have
>>
>> Name one.
>>
>>
> Russia China, Zimbabwe Cuba China...

That is more than one, and none has claimed to be communist.

Once again you can't back up your silly claims.

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 by: Richard - Wed, 11 May 2022 05:16 UTC

On 10/05/2022 21:09, Jock wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 20:23:25 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 10/05/2022 10:58, Lew wrote:
>>> On 10/05/2022 09:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 09/05/2022 19:54, Lew wrote:
>>>>> On 08/05/2022 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that
>>>>>> it ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has
>>>>>> shown that true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>>>
>>>>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established
>>>>> communism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I think you will find many have
>>>  Name one.
>>>
>> Russia China, Zimbabwe Cuba China...
>
> Zimbabwe never said that.

Stonewalled in fact.

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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 11 May 2022 07:09 UTC

On 10/05/2022 12:14, Lew wrote:
> On 10/05/2022 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that
>>>>>> it ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has
>>>>>> shown that true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>>>
>>>>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established
>>>>> communism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I think you will find many have
>>>
>>> Name one.
>>>
>>>
>> Russia China, Zimbabwe Cuba China...
>
> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has Zimbabwe in
> your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that means).
> Since you are making a claim for something, which I say doesn't exist,
> the burden of proof rests with you.
>

Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the burden
of proof that this is so falls on you.

Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever met
all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no one has
implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.

Obviously if its that hard to get it right, it must be a crick of
impractical shit to start with.

--
“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.”
– H. L. Mencken

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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 11 May 2022 07:11 UTC

On 10/05/2022 21:15, Fredxx wrote:
> On 10/05/2022 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 10/05/2022 10:58, Lew wrote:
>>> On 10/05/2022 09:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 09/05/2022 19:54, Lew wrote:
>>>>> On 08/05/2022 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that
>>>>>> it ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has
>>>>>> shown that true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>>>
>>>>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established
>>>>> communism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I think you will find many have
>>>
>>> Name one.
>>>
>>>
>> Russia China, Zimbabwe Cuba China...
>
> That is more than one, and none has claimed to be communist.

I guess that's why china has the chinese communist party as its one in
power burecracy.

>
> Once again you can't back up your silly claims.
>
>

Once again you can't back up your silly claims.
--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

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 by: Jock - Wed, 11 May 2022 09:11 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 17:09:48 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/05/2022 12:14, Lew wrote:
>> On 10/05/2022 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> as a request to be nice to other people, it used to be said that
>>>>>>> it ends up eating your own pets (Venezuela), but Zimbabwe has
>>>>>>> shown that true communism is a whole new level below that...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No country in the world has ever claimed to have established
>>>>>> communism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think you will find many have
>>>>
>>>> Name one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Russia China, Zimbabwe Cuba China...
>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has Zimbabwe
>> in your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that
>> means). Since you are making a claim for something, which I say doesn't
>> exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
>>
>
> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the burden
> of proof that this is so falls on you.

No, because in this case it isn't even possible to prove a negative.

> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever met
> all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no one has
> implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.

That isn't true of socialism, only communism.

> Obviously if its that hard to get it right, it must be a crick of
> impractical shit to start with.

Or those attempting to implement it don't like some of the
downsides like everyone being purportedly equal and
govt withering away, for what should be obvious reasons.

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 by: Lew - Wed, 11 May 2022 09:57 UTC

On 11/05/2022 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has Zimbabwe
>> in your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that
>> means). Since you are making a claim for something, which I say
>> doesn't exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
>>
>
> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the burden
> of proof that this is so falls on you.

For someone with a sig "Natural Philosopher" this is most illogical.
It's like you claiming that God exists: it's up to you to prove it; I don't.

> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever met
> all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no one has
> implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.

You haven't understood. It's only Cold War commentators such as yourself
who say that communism is the god that failed. The regimes you mention,
such as the former USSR (a clue is in the name), have never claimed to
have established communism. For Leninist ideology (of which I'm no fan)
there are important reasons why they and similar regimes couldn't be
communist. I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop
the Cold War rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually saying.

--
Lew

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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:53 UTC

On 11/05/2022 10:57, Lew wrote:
> On 11/05/2022 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has Zimbabwe
>>> in your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that
>>> means). Since you are making a claim for something, which I say
>>> doesn't exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
>>>
>>
>> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the
>> burden of proof that this is so falls on you.
>
> For someone with a sig "Natural Philosopher" this is most illogical.
> It's like you claiming that God exists: it's up to you to prove it; I
> don't.
>
>> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever
>> met all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no one
>> has implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.
>
> You haven't understood. It's only Cold War commentators such as yourself
> who say that communism is the god that failed. The regimes you mention,
> such as the former USSR (a clue is in the name), have never claimed to
> have established communism. For Leninist ideology (of which I'm no fan)
> there are important reasons why they and similar regimes couldn't be
> communist. I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop
> the Cold War rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually saying.
>
I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop the Left
wing rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually doing. And
what works.

Socialism is a failed 19th century ideology and communism is a failed
20th century adaptation of it.

As I said, either if we take your view it can't be implemented in
practice or it would have been, or if you take mine, it has been tried
and failed.

Either way its a Norwegian Blue consigned to the dustbin of history

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

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 by: Fredxx - Wed, 11 May 2022 13:36 UTC

On 11/05/2022 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/05/2022 10:57, Lew wrote:
>> On 11/05/2022 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has Zimbabwe
>>>> in your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that
>>>> means). Since you are making a claim for something, which I say
>>>> doesn't exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the
>>> burden of proof that this is so falls on you.
>>
>> For someone with a sig "Natural Philosopher" this is most illogical.
>> It's like you claiming that God exists: it's up to you to prove it; I
>> don't.
>>
>>> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever
>>> met all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no
>>> one has implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.
>>
>> You haven't understood. It's only Cold War commentators such as
>> yourself who say that communism is the god that failed. The regimes
>> you mention, such as the former USSR (a clue is in the name), have
>> never claimed to have established communism. For Leninist ideology (of
>> which I'm no fan) there are important reasons why they and similar
>> regimes couldn't be communist. I think it helps to understand the
>> world around us if we drop the Cold War rhetoric and pay attention to
>> what people are actually saying.
>>
> I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop the Left
> wing rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually doing. And
> what works.
>
> Socialism is a failed 19th century ideology  and communism is a failed
> 20th century adaptation of it.
>
> As I said, either if we take your view it can't be implemented in
> practice or it would have been, or if you take mine, it has been tried
> and failed.
>
> Either way its a Norwegian Blue consigned to the dustbin of history

Is that your way of agreeing that no country has claimed to be communist?

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: dav...@davenoise.co.uk (Dave Plowman (News))
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 15:41:50 +0100
Organization: None
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Wed, 11 May 2022 14:41 UTC

In article <t5ge5h$8bo$2@dont-email.me>,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> On 11/05/2022 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> > On 11/05/2022 10:57, Lew wrote:
> >> On 11/05/2022 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >>
> >>>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has Zimbabwe
> >>>> in your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that
> >>>> means). Since you are making a claim for something, which I say
> >>>> doesn't exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the
> >>> burden of proof that this is so falls on you.
> >>
> >> For someone with a sig "Natural Philosopher" this is most illogical.
> >> It's like you claiming that God exists: it's up to you to prove it; I
> >> don't.
> >>
> >>> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever
> >>> met all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no
> >>> one has implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.
> >>
> >> You haven't understood. It's only Cold War commentators such as
> >> yourself who say that communism is the god that failed. The regimes
> >> you mention, such as the former USSR (a clue is in the name), have
> >> never claimed to have established communism. For Leninist ideology (of
> >> which I'm no fan) there are important reasons why they and similar
> >> regimes couldn't be communist. I think it helps to understand the
> >> world around us if we drop the Cold War rhetoric and pay attention to
> >> what people are actually saying.
> >>
> > I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop the Left
> > wing rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually doing. And
> > what works.
> >
> > Socialism is a failed 19th century ideology and communism is a failed
> > 20th century adaptation of it.
> >
> > As I said, either if we take your view it can't be implemented in
> > practice or it would have been, or if you take mine, it has been tried
> > and failed.
> >
> > Either way its a Norwegian Blue consigned to the dustbin of history

> Is that your way of agreeing that no country has claimed to be communist?

I'd guess Turnip thinks anyone with views left of his own is a communist.
Bit like in the US - everyone left of Trump is a socialist, and some sort
of insult.

It's no wonder Putin chose now to take on the West. Seeing Trump, Biden
and Johnson as being the best the English speaking world could find as
leaders.

--
*The colder the X-ray table, the more of your body is required on it *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 16:03:23 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 11 May 2022 15:03 UTC

On 11/05/2022 14:36, Fredxx wrote:
> On 11/05/2022 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 11/05/2022 10:57, Lew wrote:
>>> On 11/05/2022 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has
>>>>> Zimbabwe in your original post above created "true communism"
>>>>> (whatever that means). Since you are making a claim for something,
>>>>> which I say doesn't exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the
>>>> burden of proof that this is so falls on you.
>>>
>>> For someone with a sig "Natural Philosopher" this is most illogical.
>>> It's like you claiming that God exists: it's up to you to prove it; I
>>> don't.
>>>
>>>> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever
>>>> met all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no
>>>> one has implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.
>>>
>>> You haven't understood. It's only Cold War commentators such as
>>> yourself who say that communism is the god that failed. The regimes
>>> you mention, such as the former USSR (a clue is in the name), have
>>> never claimed to have established communism. For Leninist ideology
>>> (of which I'm no fan) there are important reasons why they and
>>> similar regimes couldn't be communist. I think it helps to understand
>>> the world around us if we drop the Cold War rhetoric and pay
>>> attention to what people are actually saying.
>>>
>> I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop the Left
>> wing rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually doing. And
>> what works.
>>
>> Socialism is a failed 19th century ideology  and communism is a failed
>> 20th century adaptation of it.
>>
>> As I said, either if we take your view it can't be implemented in
>> practice or it would have been, or if you take mine, it has been tried
>> and failed.
>>
>> Either way its a Norwegian Blue consigned to the dustbin of history
>
> Is that your way of agreeing that no country has claimed to be communist?
>
>
No, its my way of saying that *if* no country has, its not for want of
trying, so either way socialism is crap.

This avoiding your straw man about whether or not 'real' communism has
ever been implemented by all those revolutionary communist governments

--
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

― Leo Tolstoy

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: lki...@gmail.com (lacksey)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
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 by: lacksey - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:34 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:53:17 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 11/05/2022 10:57, Lew wrote:
>> On 11/05/2022 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has Zimbabwe
>>>> in your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that
>>>> means). Since you are making a claim for something, which I say
>>>> doesn't exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the
>>> burden of proof that this is so falls on you.
>> For someone with a sig "Natural Philosopher" this is most illogical.
>> It's like you claiming that God exists: it's up to you to prove it; I
>> don't.
>>
>>> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever
>>> met all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no one
>>> has implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.
>> You haven't understood. It's only Cold War commentators such as
>> yourself who say that communism is the god that failed. The regimes you
>> mention, such as the former USSR (a clue is in the name), have never
>> claimed to have established communism. For Leninist ideology (of which
>> I'm no fan) there are important reasons why they and similar regimes
>> couldn't be communist. I think it helps to understand the world around
>> us if we drop the Cold War rhetoric and pay attention to what people
>> are actually saying.
>>
> I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop the Left
> wing rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually doing. And
> what works.

> Socialism is a failed 19th century ideology

Not with most roads, the cops, the legal system,
most major airports and ports, govt shools, the
NHS etc and welfare it isn't.

> and communism is a failed 20th century adaptation of it.

> As I said, either if we take your view it can't be implemented in
> practice or it would have been, or if you take mine, it has been tried
> and failed.

> Either way its a Norwegian Blue consigned to the dustbin of history

Not with socialism.

Re: Socialism starts...

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
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 by: Jock - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:01 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 00:41:50 +1000, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <t5ge5h$8bo$2@dont-email.me>,
> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/05/2022 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> > On 11/05/2022 10:57, Lew wrote:
>> >> On 11/05/2022 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has
>> Zimbabwe
>> >>>> in your original post above created "true communism" (whatever that
>> >>>> means). Since you are making a claim for something, which I say
>> >>>> doesn't exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the
>> >>> burden of proof that this is so falls on you.
>> >>
>> >> For someone with a sig "Natural Philosopher" this is most illogical.
>> >> It's like you claiming that God exists: it's up to you to prove it; I
>> >> don't.
>> >>
>> >>> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever
>> >>> met all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no
>> >>> one has implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.
>> >>
>> >> You haven't understood. It's only Cold War commentators such as
>> >> yourself who say that communism is the god that failed. The regimes
>> >> you mention, such as the former USSR (a clue is in the name), have
>> >> never claimed to have established communism. For Leninist ideology
>> (of
>> >> which I'm no fan) there are important reasons why they and similar
>> >> regimes couldn't be communist. I think it helps to understand the
>> >> world around us if we drop the Cold War rhetoric and pay attention to
>> >> what people are actually saying.
>> >>
>> > I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop the Left
>> > wing rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually doing. And
>> > what works.
>> >
>> > Socialism is a failed 19th century ideology and communism is a failed
>> > 20th century adaptation of it.
>> >
>> > As I said, either if we take your view it can't be implemented in
>> > practice or it would have been, or if you take mine, it has been tried
>> > and failed.
>> >
>> > Either way its a Norwegian Blue consigned to the dustbin of history
>
>> Is that your way of agreeing that no country has claimed to be
>> communist?
>
> I'd guess Turnip thinks anyone with views left of his own is a communist.
> Bit like in the US - everyone left of Trump is a socialist, and some sort
> of insult.
>
> It's no wonder Putin chose now to take on the West. Seeing Trump, Biden
> and Johnson as being the best the English speaking world could find as
> leaders.

The reality appears to be that that arsehole really is completely
paranoid about NATO being the latest attempt at invading Russia.

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: lki...@gmail.com (lacksey)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 03:04:30 +1000
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 by: lacksey - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:04 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 01:03:23 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 11/05/2022 14:36, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 11/05/2022 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 11/05/2022 10:57, Lew wrote:
>>>> On 11/05/2022 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> None of them have claimed to establish communism... Nor has
>>>>>> Zimbabwe in your original post above created "true communism"
>>>>>> (whatever that means). Since you are making a claim for something,
>>>>>> which I say doesn't exist, the burden of proof rests with you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since it is you claiming that none of them have claimed this, the
>>>>> burden of proof that this is so falls on you.
>>>>
>>>> For someone with a sig "Natural Philosopher" this is most illogical.
>>>> It's like you claiming that God exists: it's up to you to prove it; I
>>>> don't.
>>>>
>>>>> Mined you every single left of centre devotee and fanboi I have ever
>>>>> met all claim that socialism and communism doesn't work because no
>>>>> one has implemented the One True Religion/ideology etc etc.
>>>>
>>>> You haven't understood. It's only Cold War commentators such as
>>>> yourself who say that communism is the god that failed. The regimes
>>>> you mention, such as the former USSR (a clue is in the name), have
>>>> never claimed to have established communism. For Leninist ideology
>>>> (of which I'm no fan) there are important reasons why they and
>>>> similar regimes couldn't be communist. I think it helps to understand
>>>> the world around us if we drop the Cold War rhetoric and pay
>>>> attention to what people are actually saying.
>>>>
>>> I think it helps to understand the world around us if we drop the Left
>>> wing rhetoric and pay attention to what people are actually doing. And
>>> what works.
>>>
>>> Socialism is a failed 19th century ideology and communism is a failed
>>> 20th century adaptation of it.
>>>
>>> As I said, either if we take your view it can't be implemented in
>>> practice or it would have been, or if you take mine, it has been tried
>>> and failed.
>>>
>>> Either way its a Norwegian Blue consigned to the dustbin of history
>> Is that your way of agreeing that no country has claimed to be
>> communist?
>>
> No, its my way of saying that *if* no country has, its not for want of
> trying, so either way socialism is crap.

Must be why you never use the NHS, public roads, Oxbridge.

> This avoiding your straw man about whether or not 'real' communism has
> ever been implemented by all those revolutionary communist governments

Re: Socialism starts...

<t5gu4j$lgv$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: smith...@btinternet.com.invalid (Richard)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 19:09:23 +0100
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 by: Richard - Wed, 11 May 2022 18:09 UTC

On 11/05/2022 18:04, Rod speed, akalacksey wrote:

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: smith...@btinternet.com.invalid (Richard)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 19:09:47 +0100
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 by: Richard - Wed, 11 May 2022 18:09 UTC

On 11/05/2022 17:34, lacksey wrote:

Re: Socialism starts...

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
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Subject: Re: Socialism starts...
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 19:50:46 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Wed, 11 May 2022 18:50 UTC

On 10/05/2022 14:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> Thought native americans had no notion of land ownership. So couldn't sell
> what they don't own?

An infant or moron might have no notion of land ownership but could
still be the legal owner of land.

Bill

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