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aus+uk / uk.d-i-y / Re: Temporary electricity supply.

SubjectAuthor
* Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
+* Re: Temporary electricity supply.N_Cook
|`- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
+- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
+* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Robin
|`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Theo
| `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.ARW
|  +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Robin
|  |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Mark Carver
|  | +- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Robin
|  | `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Theo
|  |  `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.SH
|  |   `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Robin
|  |    |+* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Theo
|  |    ||`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Animal
|  |    || `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||  +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Theo
|  |    ||  |+* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Robin
|  |    ||  ||`- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Theo
|  |    ||  |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||  | `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Robin
|  |    ||  |  `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||  |   +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
|  |    ||  |   |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||  |   | `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||  |   |  `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||  |   `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.ARW
|  |    ||  |    `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||  |     `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.ARW
|  |    ||  `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||   `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Animal
|  |    ||    `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||     +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Animal
|  |    ||     |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||     | +- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||     | `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Theo
|  |    ||     |  +- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||     |  +- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||     |  `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.ARW
|  |    ||     |   `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||     |    `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.ARW
|  |    ||     |     `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||     `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
|  |    ||      `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||       +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Animal
|  |    ||       |`- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||       +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||       |+- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
|  |    ||       |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||       | +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Rod Speed
|  |    ||       | |+- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Rod Speed
|  |    ||       | |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||       | | +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Rod Speed
|  |    ||       | | |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||       | | | +- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Rod Speed
|  |    ||       | | | `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||       | | `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Paul
|  |    ||       | |  `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.John Walliker
|  |    ||       | |   +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.lacksey
|  |    ||       | |   |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.RJH
|  |    ||       | |   | +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.John Walliker
|  |    ||       | |   | |`- Re: Temporary electricity supply.RJH
|  |    ||       | |   | `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
|  |    ||       | |   `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Paul
|  |    ||       | |    `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.John Walliker
|  |    ||       | `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Theo
|  |    ||       `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.ARW
|  |    ||        `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||         `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.ARW
|  |    ||          +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
|  |    ||          |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Animal
|  |    ||          | `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||          |  +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.The Natural Philosopher
|  |    ||          |  |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||          |  | `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.The Natural Philosopher
|  |    ||          |  +* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
|  |    ||          |  |+- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  |    ||          |  |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.charles
|  |    ||          |  | `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Tim Lamb
|  |    ||          |  |  `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Robin
|  |    ||          |  `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    ||          +- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Bev
|  |    ||          `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.jkn
|  |    |`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
|  |    | `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.lacksey
|  |    `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
|  |     `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Colin Bignell
|  `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Theo
|   `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
|    `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.ARW
+* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Tim+
|`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.lacksey
| `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Tim+
+- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
+* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Animal
|`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Andrew
| `* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Animal
|  `- Re: Temporary electricity supply.Rod Speed
+* Re: Temporary electricity supply.John J
|`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)
`* Re: Temporary electricity supply.Dave Plowman (News)

Pages:12345
Re: Temporary electricity supply.

<af022bcf-2bd2-3e65-2ffe-66d846abad14@outlook.com>

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From: rbw...@outlook.com (Robin)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 15:36:28 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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<59e7f7e5c2dave@davenoise.co.uk> <7cx*sP5Ny@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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 by: Robin - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:36 UTC

On 13/05/2022 15:20, Theo wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>> Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
>> for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
>>
>> I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under water. They
>> are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get that high.
>> if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the internal stopcock.
>
> Presumably there was some outlet in the cellar, which is how the water
> became live? And without an RCD it stayed that way?
>
>> As I remember it, the ring was likely 50s or 60s. Those rather nasty
>> surface mount MK sockets. But PVC wiring. Earthed only to the incoming
>> water main. A 30 amp fuse switch via a Henlec block. And another for the
>> cooker.
>
> So no consumer unit at all, those things connected straight off Henley
> blocks from the meter?
>
>> I'd say they would pass tests (except for the earth)
>>
>> What I was hoping for would be a way to re-connect them and not the
>> lighting. She more or less lives in the kitchen/breakfast room which has a
>> cloakroom attached. At the moment that loo is still flushing from the
>> header tank. But likely not for much longer. She hasn't been able to get
>> upstairs for a couple of years now.
>
> If the supply is good and the ring would pass tests, a basic CU with a
> single MCB+RCD or RCBO way wouldn't seem complicated. The earthing would need
> sorting out, but perhaps there's an earth off the incomer? If there is only
> an earth rod, perhaps the DNO could convert it to PME when they come to
> refit the cutout?

Very possibly (and last time I checked still for free in London at
least) *but* won't be done unless and until main bonding is up to
current requirements.

> If the cooker wiring isn't good, run a new wire in surface trunking.
> Likewise for the lighting. Total three RCBOs, £25 each. Probably another
> £50 for a cheapo CU and a main switch.
>
> I'd imagine around here the work would be sub £1000 depending on the cable
> runs and other fiddliness - although I'm not familiar with London prices.
>
> If they get a sparky in, they can do the work and coordinate with the DNO to
> reconnect once everything is safe.
>
> Theo

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

<4cx*v45Ny@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: 13 May 2022 16:25:08 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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References: <54e01ce2-90d4-4ffe-950f-bc4762fe310bn@googlegroups.com> <59e7f7e5c2dave@davenoise.co.uk> <7cx*sP5Ny@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <af022bcf-2bd2-3e65-2ffe-66d846abad14@outlook.com>
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 by: Theo - Fri, 13 May 2022 15:25 UTC

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 15:20, Theo wrote:
> > If the supply is good and the ring would pass tests, a basic CU with a
> > single MCB+RCD or RCBO way wouldn't seem complicated. The earthing would need
> > sorting out, but perhaps there's an earth off the incomer? If there is only
> > an earth rod, perhaps the DNO could convert it to PME when they come to
> > refit the cutout?
>
> Very possibly (and last time I checked still for free in London at
> least) *but* won't be done unless and until main bonding is up to
> current requirements.

If UKPN has a massively out of date install (which if it was pre-WWII this
might have been) I think they are quite keen to bring it up to modern
standards when they're on site anyway, and won't worry about charging for
that. They came to upgrade my main fuse and ended up changing the entire
1960s service head, for example.

However the current setup is electrically unsafe so sounds like they won't
re-energise it until further work takes place. Any new CU install is going
to have to bring the bonding up to scratch too. Once installed, the DNO can
re-energise.

Theo

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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<59e7f7e5c2dave@davenoise.co.uk>
From: cpb...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk (Colin Bignell)
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 by: Colin Bignell - Fri, 13 May 2022 15:43 UTC

On 13/05/2022 14:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
> for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
>
> I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under water. They
> are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get that high.
> if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the internal stopcock.
>
> As I remember it, the ring was likely 50s or 60s. Those rather nasty
> surface mount MK sockets. But PVC wiring. Earthed only to the incoming
> water main. A 30 amp fuse switch via a Henlec block. And another for the
> cooker.
>
> I'd say they would pass tests (except for the earth)
>
> What I was hoping for would be a way to re-connect them and not the
> lighting. ...

The supplier will want the entire house up to standard before
reconnecting. Otherwise, there is nothing to stop somebody reconnecting
the lighting once there is power is available in the house.

--
Colin Bignell

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
From: tabbyp...@gmail.com (Animal)
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 by: Animal - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:17 UTC

On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 16:43:59 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 14:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
> > for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
> >
> > I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under water. They
> > are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get that high..
> > if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the internal stopcock.
> >
> > As I remember it, the ring was likely 50s or 60s. Those rather nasty
> > surface mount MK sockets. But PVC wiring. Earthed only to the incoming
> > water main. A 30 amp fuse switch via a Henlec block. And another for the
> > cooker.
> >
> > I'd say they would pass tests (except for the earth)
> >
> > What I was hoping for would be a way to re-connect them and not the
> > lighting. ...
>
> The supplier will want the entire house up to standard before
> reconnecting. Otherwise, there is nothing to stop somebody reconnecting
> the lighting once there is power is available in the house.

What's needed is a new CU with RCBO/RCD, main earth bond and 1+ new light/s where the supplier will go. There should be no need to show anyone the rest of the house or discuss any rewiring, and of course the old prewar lighting should not be reconnected. Visible parts of it should be removed. The rest should too really.

Doing the minimum would make her house habitable. From there she can take her time getting quotes etc and dealing with insurers, trades etc, and end up all sorted.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

<cfidnUWI77p-F-P_nZ2dnUU7-a_NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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<59e7f7e5c2dave@davenoise.co.uk>
<fJudncbh5Z4q4eP_nZ2dnUU7-S_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<cade3afb-cee8-48f2-a837-3207d9956bdbn@googlegroups.com>
From: cpb...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk (Colin Bignell)
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 by: Colin Bignell - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:44 UTC

On 13/05/2022 17:17, Animal wrote:
> On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 16:43:59 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 13/05/2022 14:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
>>> for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
>>>
>>> I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under water. They
>>> are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get that high.
>>> if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the internal stopcock.
>>>
>>> As I remember it, the ring was likely 50s or 60s. Those rather nasty
>>> surface mount MK sockets. But PVC wiring. Earthed only to the incoming
>>> water main. A 30 amp fuse switch via a Henlec block. And another for the
>>> cooker.
>>>
>>> I'd say they would pass tests (except for the earth)
>>>
>>> What I was hoping for would be a way to re-connect them and not the
>>> lighting. ...
>>
>> The supplier will want the entire house up to standard before
>> reconnecting. Otherwise, there is nothing to stop somebody reconnecting
>> the lighting once there is power is available in the house.
>
> What's needed is a new CU with RCBO/RCD, main earth bond and 1+ new light/s where the supplier will go. There should be no need to show anyone the rest of the house or discuss any rewiring, and of course the old prewar lighting should not be reconnected. Visible parts of it should be removed. The rest should too really.
>
> Doing the minimum would make her house habitable. From there she can take her time getting quotes etc and dealing with insurers, trades etc, and end up all sorted.

Even decades ago, when I worked for an Electricity Board, we wouldn't
have accepted that. It smacks of somebody wanting to get a sub-standard
system installed, once the power is to the house.

--
Colin Bignell

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
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 by: lacksey - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:53 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 23:25:22 +1000, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <d5a2b32d-38c8-c742-943a-794045aaa6a0@outlook.com>,
> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 13/05/2022 11:41, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> >
>> > I would be talking to the local media by now. A human interest story,
>> if
>> > ever there was one.
>> >
>
>> Although the full story may be less interesting - e.g. if the insurance
>> company said straight away they would pay for her to move into a decent
>> hotel until the cellar was pumped and power restored.
>
> Yes they did. She refused.

So would I given that there is still so much covid around
and she doesnt allow visitors into the place. Your extension
cord from your place is the best approach imo.

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Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
From: tabbyp...@gmail.com (Animal)
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 by: Animal - Sat, 14 May 2022 00:35 UTC

On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 17:44:28 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 17:17, Animal wrote:
> > On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 16:43:59 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
> >> On 13/05/2022 14:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> >>> Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
> >>> for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
> >>>
> >>> I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under water. They
> >>> are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get that high.
> >>> if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the internal stopcock.
> >>>
> >>> As I remember it, the ring was likely 50s or 60s. Those rather nasty
> >>> surface mount MK sockets. But PVC wiring. Earthed only to the incoming
> >>> water main. A 30 amp fuse switch via a Henlec block. And another for the
> >>> cooker.
> >>>
> >>> I'd say they would pass tests (except for the earth)
> >>>
> >>> What I was hoping for would be a way to re-connect them and not the
> >>> lighting. ...
> >>
> >> The supplier will want the entire house up to standard before
> >> reconnecting. Otherwise, there is nothing to stop somebody reconnecting
> >> the lighting once there is power is available in the house.
> >
> > What's needed is a new CU with RCBO/RCD, main earth bond and 1+ new light/s where the supplier will go. There should be no need to show anyone the rest of the house or discuss any rewiring, and of course the old prewar lighting should not be reconnected. Visible parts of it should be removed. The rest should too really.
> >
> > Doing the minimum would make her house habitable. From there she can take her time getting quotes etc and dealing with insurers, trades etc, and end up all sorted.
> Even decades ago, when I worked for an Electricity Board, we wouldn't
> have accepted that. It smacks of somebody wanting to get a sub-standard
> system installed, once the power is to the house.

Firstly that's a guess, and these days not a too realistic one.
Secondly a minimal system is safe, legal & habitable.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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 by: Colin Bignell - Sat, 14 May 2022 09:46 UTC

On 14/05/2022 01:35, Animal wrote:
> On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 17:44:28 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 13/05/2022 17:17, Animal wrote:
>>> On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 16:43:59 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/2022 14:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>> Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
>>>>> for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under water. They
>>>>> are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get that high.
>>>>> if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the internal stopcock.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I remember it, the ring was likely 50s or 60s. Those rather nasty
>>>>> surface mount MK sockets. But PVC wiring. Earthed only to the incoming
>>>>> water main. A 30 amp fuse switch via a Henlec block. And another for the
>>>>> cooker.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd say they would pass tests (except for the earth)
>>>>>
>>>>> What I was hoping for would be a way to re-connect them and not the
>>>>> lighting. ...
>>>>
>>>> The supplier will want the entire house up to standard before
>>>> reconnecting. Otherwise, there is nothing to stop somebody reconnecting
>>>> the lighting once there is power is available in the house.
>>>
>>> What's needed is a new CU with RCBO/RCD, main earth bond and 1+ new light/s where the supplier will go. There should be no need to show anyone the rest of the house or discuss any rewiring, and of course the old prewar lighting should not be reconnected. Visible parts of it should be removed. The rest should too really.
>>>
>>> Doing the minimum would make her house habitable. From there she can take her time getting quotes etc and dealing with insurers, trades etc, and end up all sorted.
>> Even decades ago, when I worked for an Electricity Board, we wouldn't
>> have accepted that. It smacks of somebody wanting to get a sub-standard
>> system installed, once the power is to the house.
>
> Firstly that's a guess,

It is the voice of experience of what strange things people get up to.

and these days not a too realistic one.

I would have thought that there was a duty of due diligence today, which
we didn't have to follow, which would have made it even less likely to
be acceptable.

> Secondly a minimal system is safe, legal & habitable.

That is not the concern. It is possible sub-standard additions to it, to
make the rest of the house habitable, that is.

About the only people I can think of who could have a minimal
installation approved like that would be a builder working on the
premises, who needs the power (and possibly water) to carry out further
work. If Dave knows an accommodating builder who is willing to apply for
the supply, but not actually do any work, that might be a way to do it.

--
Colin Bignell

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:25:19 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Sat, 14 May 2022 10:25 UTC

On 13/05/2022 11:41, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 11:25, SH wrote:
>> On 13/05/2022 10:23, Theo wrote:
>>> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 12/05/2022 20:47, Robin wrote:
>>>>> Which prompts a question for Dave: was the meter flooded and if so is
>>>>> her supplier on notice to get it replaced?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's based on my assumption that even in such cases UK Power
>>>>> Networks will do everything up to and including the meter board but
>>>>> not the meter itself.
>>>>>
>>>> The meters are no longer owned by the DNOs, it's the energy suppliers
>>>> now (and if the same 'company' as the DNO, then it's the retail arm,
>>>> and
>>>> not the 'network' arm you need to talk to)
>>>
>>> I think that was Robin's point.  The DNO will furnish you with a new
>>> meter
>>> board and cutout, but presumably won't wire anything past the cutout
>>> since
>>> that's the energy supplier's responsibility.  Which leaves you without a
>>> working supply until your supplier can visit to install a new meter.
>>>
>>> I contacted the late unlamented Symbio about doing something
>>> (non-emergency)
>>> to my meter and they replied about three weeks later.  So wouldn't
>>> have held
>>> out much hope of them attending in a timely manner.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if there's anyone who takes charge here, or is the 90
>>> year old
>>> supposed to coordinate between supplier and DNO?
>>>
>>> Theo
>>
>>
>> might be worth waving the "vulnerable customer" card on the grounds of
>> her senior citizen status to get a priority appointment?
>
> I would be talking to the local media by now. A human interest story, if
> ever there was one.
>

I'm sure all the local (and not so local) burglars will be delighted to
watch that news story on social media and work out where the property
is, so that they can "check it over" for jewelry and other stuff.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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 by: Colin Bignell - Sat, 14 May 2022 10:53 UTC

On 14/05/2022 11:25, Andrew wrote:
...
> I'm sure all the local (and not so local) burglars will be delighted to
> watch that news story on social media and work out where the property
> is, so that they can "check it over" for jewelry and other stuff.

More likely to be travelling around the area, looking for places without
lights or burglar alarm.

--
Colin Bignell

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

<59e86e78f3dave@davenoise.co.uk>

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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 12:27:15 +0100
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Sat, 14 May 2022 11:27 UTC

In article <7cx*sP5Ny@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
> > for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
> >
> > I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under water.
> > They are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get
> > that high. if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the
> > internal stopcock.

> Presumably there was some outlet in the cellar, which is how the water
> became live? And without an RCD it stayed that way?

I doubt there are any sockets in the cellar, Just a light. But not certain.

My guess is there was current flow to the only ground - to the water pipe.
And the daughter standing in water made a better path to ground. I've not
been down there to look at things, though. could be the earth connection
is on the wrong side of the stopcock - which was installed later, I've
been told.

> > As I remember it, the ring was likely 50s or 60s. Those rather nasty
> > surface mount MK sockets. But PVC wiring. Earthed only to the incoming
> > water main. A 30 amp fuse switch via a Henlec block. And another for the
> > cooker.

> So no consumer unit at all, those things connected straight off Henley
> blocks from the meter?

No. As I remember the original lighting predated CUs. So separate switch
and fusebox.

> > I'd say they would pass tests (except for the earth)
> >
> > What I was hoping for would be a way to re-connect them and not the
> > lighting. She more or less lives in the kitchen/breakfast room which
> > has a cloakroom attached. At the moment that loo is still flushing
> > from the header tank. But likely not for much longer. She hasn't been
> > able to get upstairs for a couple of years now.

> If the supply is good and the ring would pass tests, a basic CU with a
> single MCB+RCD or RCBO way wouldn't seem complicated. The earthing
> would need sorting out, but perhaps there's an earth off the incomer?
> If there is only an earth rod, perhaps the DNO could convert it to PME
> when they come to refit the cutout?

> If the cooker wiring isn't good, run a new wire in surface trunking.
> Likewise for the lighting. Total three RCBOs, £25 each. Probably
> another £50 for a cheapo CU and a main switch.

> I'd imagine around here the work would be sub £1000 depending on the
> cable runs and other fiddliness - although I'm not familiar with London
> prices.

> If they get a sparky in, they can do the work and coordinate with the
> DNO to reconnect once everything is safe.

Again, as I remember, the cooker circuit was later than the ring.

Although I'm not sure she does any cooking. But does use a microwave to
heat ready meals, etc.

--
*Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: dav...@davenoise.co.uk (Dave Plowman (News))
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 12:34:30 +0100
Organization: None
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Sat, 14 May 2022 11:34 UTC

In article <Sqadnbij3cbg5-L_nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
> About the only people I can think of who could have a minimal
> installation approved like that would be a builder working on the
> premises, who needs the power (and possibly water) to carry out further
> work. If Dave knows an accommodating builder who is willing to apply for
> the supply, but not actually do any work, that might be a way to do it.

That really was what I was hoping for. I'm happy enough giving her a free
13 amp feed for a while. But not for ever. If it were just her, a
different matter. But from what some of the relations say, protecting
their inheritance seems to be the priority. ;-(

--
*When you get a bladder infection urine trouble.*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: rbw...@outlook.com (Robin)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 13:48:16 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Robin - Sat, 14 May 2022 12:48 UTC

On 14/05/2022 12:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <7cx*sP5Ny@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
>>> for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
>>>
>>> I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under water.
>>> They are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get
>>> that high. if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the
>>> internal stopcock.
>
>> Presumably there was some outlet in the cellar, which is how the water
>> became live? And without an RCD it stayed that way?
>
> I doubt there are any sockets in the cellar, Just a light. But not certain.
>
> My guess is there was current flow to the only ground - to the water pipe.
> And the daughter standing in water made a better path to ground. I've not
> been down there to look at things, though. could be the earth connection
> is on the wrong side of the stopcock - which was installed later, I've
> been told.
>

I had wondered about that when you said the flood didn't reach the
cut-out etc. And wondered too if water mains (and communication pipes)
had been replaced.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: 14 May 2022 14:37:08 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:37 UTC

Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
> It is the voice of experience of what strange things people get up to.
>
> and these days not a too realistic one.
>
> I would have thought that there was a duty of due diligence today, which
> we didn't have to follow, which would have made it even less likely to
> be acceptable.

I'm not sure what DNO policy on this is. But I think that suppliers who are
changing meters won't intervene if there is something not up to scratch with
the installation - they will swap out the meter and leave things as equally
bad as they were before, but they won't cut people off when they have come
just to change the meter. That is presumably why this installation is still
going with pre-WWII wiring - the meter must have been changed several times
since then, but the installation was not condemned. Maybe the householder
was told it needed improvement but then ignored it.

That seems to be in contrast to gas installs where the gas distributor may
cut you off if your installation is dangerous. Presumably because a gas
explosion affects more people than just those who live in the house. But
also because it's easier to live without gas than without electricity.

Perhaps Adam has more experience here?

Also bear in mind the person calling the DNO to re-energise is going to be
an electrician not the householder, and the electrician is able to sign off
their own work.

Theo

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: dav...@davenoise.co.uk (Dave Plowman (News))
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 14:55:23 +0100
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:55 UTC

In article <631f4b23-b162-b593-638b-80b61df64e20@outlook.com>,
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> > My guess is there was current flow to the only ground - to the water
> > pipe. And the daughter standing in water made a better path to ground.
> > I've not been down there to look at things, though. could be the earth
> > connection is on the wrong side of the stopcock - which was installed
> > later, I've been told.
> >

> I had wondered about that when you said the flood didn't reach the
> cut-out etc. And wondered too if water mains (and communication pipes)
> had been replaced.

I simply dunno. The water main from street into my house is still lead.

However, I'm told by the son-in-law he had a stop cock fitted to the
incoming main - and also one close to the (external) header tank which is
mounted on the flat roof to the rear addition. It's possible the mains
earth is now on the house side of the stop cock. Or even just not making a
decent earth connection all these years later.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: dav...@davenoise.co.uk (Dave Plowman (News))
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 15:02:08 +0100
Organization: None
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Sat, 14 May 2022 14:02 UTC

In article <4cx*HW+Ny@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
> > It is the voice of experience of what strange things people get up to.
> >
> > and these days not a too realistic one.
> >
> > I would have thought that there was a duty of due diligence today,
> > which we didn't have to follow, which would have made it even less
> > likely to be acceptable.

> I'm not sure what DNO policy on this is. But I think that suppliers who
> are changing meters won't intervene if there is something not up to
> scratch with the installation - they will swap out the meter and leave
> things as equally bad as they were before, but they won't cut people off
> when they have come just to change the meter. That is presumably why
> this installation is still going with pre-WWII wiring - the meter must
> have been changed several times since then, but the installation was not
> condemned. Maybe the householder was told it needed improvement but
> then ignored it.

I do know she had a power failure in the last couple of years or so.
Remember lending her a Lidl rechargeable LED work light I have which runs
for a few hours. The pavement outside her house was dug up for a repair,
and done very quickly. But can't say why they didn't refuse to reinstate
her supply then. Assuming they went into the house.

--
*After the game, the King and the pawn go into the same box.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: cpb...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk (Colin Bignell)
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 by: Colin Bignell - Sat, 14 May 2022 15:42 UTC

On 14/05/2022 14:37, Theo wrote:
> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>> It is the voice of experience of what strange things people get up to.
>>
>> and these days not a too realistic one.
>>
>> I would have thought that there was a duty of due diligence today, which
>> we didn't have to follow, which would have made it even less likely to
>> be acceptable.
>
> I'm not sure what DNO policy on this is. But I think that suppliers who are
> changing meters won't intervene if there is something not up to scratch with
> the installation - they will swap out the meter and leave things as equally
> bad as they were before, but they won't cut people off when they have come
> just to change the meter. That is presumably why this installation is still
> going with pre-WWII wiring - the meter must have been changed several times
> since then, but the installation was not condemned. Maybe the householder
> was told it needed improvement but then ignored it.

That is not quite the same as reconnecting a supply that has previously
been disconnected as being dangerous though.

>
> That seems to be in contrast to gas installs where the gas distributor may
> cut you off if your installation is dangerous. Presumably because a gas
> explosion affects more people than just those who live in the house. But
> also because it's easier to live without gas than without electricity.
>
> Perhaps Adam has more experience here?
>
> Also bear in mind the person calling the DNO to re-energise is going to be
> an electrician not the householder, and the electrician is able to sign off
> their own work.
>
> Theo

--
Colin Bignell

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 18:57:36 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Sat, 14 May 2022 17:57 UTC

On 14/05/2022 14:55, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <631f4b23-b162-b593-638b-80b61df64e20@outlook.com>,
> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> My guess is there was current flow to the only ground - to the water
>>> pipe. And the daughter standing in water made a better path to ground.
>>> I've not been down there to look at things, though. could be the earth
>>> connection is on the wrong side of the stopcock - which was installed
>>> later, I've been told.
>>>
>
>> I had wondered about that when you said the flood didn't reach the
>> cut-out etc. And wondered too if water mains (and communication pipes)
>> had been replaced.
>
> I simply dunno. The water main from street into my house is still lead.
>

Good job London has really hard water then :-)

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 19:00:02 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Sat, 14 May 2022 18:00 UTC

On 13/05/2022 17:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 17:17, Animal wrote:
>> On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 16:43:59 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2022 14:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>> Just a general answer based on my memory. Several years ago I installed
>>>> for her an extra 13 amp socket and a phone outlet for a DECT phone.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the cable, riser, meter or fuse boxes were under
>>>> water. They
>>>> are all close to the cellar ceiling, and the water didn't get that
>>>> high.
>>>> if it had, it would have been impossible to get to the internal
>>>> stopcock.
>>>>
>>>> As I remember it, the ring was likely 50s or 60s. Those rather nasty
>>>> surface mount MK sockets. But PVC wiring. Earthed only to the incoming
>>>> water main. A 30 amp fuse switch via a Henlec block. And another for
>>>> the
>>>> cooker.
>>>>
>>>> I'd say they would pass tests (except for the earth)
>>>>
>>>> What I was hoping for would be a way to re-connect them and not the
>>>> lighting. ...
>>>
>>> The supplier will want the entire house up to standard before
>>> reconnecting. Otherwise, there is nothing to stop somebody reconnecting
>>> the lighting once there is power is available in the house.
>>
>> What's needed is a new CU with RCBO/RCD, main earth bond and 1+ new
>> light/s where the supplier will go. There should be no need to show
>> anyone the rest of the house or discuss any rewiring, and of course
>> the old prewar lighting should not be reconnected. Visible parts of it
>> should be removed. The rest should too really.
>>
>> Doing the minimum would make her house habitable. From there she can
>> take her time getting quotes etc and dealing with insurers, trades
>> etc, and end up all sorted.
>
> Even decades ago, when I worked for an Electricity Board, we wouldn't
> have accepted that. It smacks of somebody wanting to get a sub-standard
> system installed, once the power is to the house.
>

I thought they insisted that the installation complied with BS7671 ?

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 19:05:13 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Andrew - Sat, 14 May 2022 18:05 UTC

On 12/05/2022 22:46, Theo wrote:
> ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> I once did something the same but with trunking.
>>
>> The electricity co will take no time to swap the cutout once the cellar
>> is pumped out.
>
> If it were me I'd be tempted to find a location on the ground floor exterior
> for a meter box, with a CU inside somewhere nearby. Maybe the insurance
> would pay?
>
> But I think you're right that the incomer is probably OK once dried out and
> the DNO will fit a new meter board and cutout. So you don't need a new
> incomer. It's not like flooding is a regular occurrence here, where it
> might be advisable to move it.
>
> I forget the regs, is there any issue with having the meter somewhere
> distant from the cutout, assuming suitably robust cable? For example if the
> householder can't get down the stairs into the cellar any more, could it be
> moved to the ground floor next to a new CU? A smart meter shouldn't need to
> be accessible for meter readers in person, but sometimes suppliers still ask
> for readings (eg when changing supplier).
>
> Either way, a new CU inside plus a few sockets with surface wiring would be
> a lot cheaper than a full rewire. Might have to do something about
> lighting, but maybe a few wall lights?
>
> Theo

Since she cannot get upstairs, all the upstairs wiring might just as
well be removed, and this does not infringe any regulations (AFAIK),
leaving a minimal downstairs upgrade (cooker plus 1 ring)

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From: Andrew97...@mybtinternet.com (Andrew)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Temporary electricity supply.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 19:07:00 +0100
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 by: Andrew - Sat, 14 May 2022 18:07 UTC

On 12/05/2022 22:13, Animal wrote:
> On Thursday, 12 May 2022 at 11:11:18 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> Back story.
>> Next door neighbour is a widow near 90 living on her own. Very stubborn.
>> Was born in her house and wants to die in it. Totally housebound and won't
>> have any visitors since Covid. So haven't even spoken to her for a couple
>> of years. Sad, as we got on well enough. She has family who call in every
>> day, though.
>>
>> Last week a pipe in the cellar split and flooded it - and next door's
>> cellar too. Daughter waded into the cellar to turn off the water and got a
>> bad electric shock. Ended up in A&E - but on the mend now.
>>
>> Service suppliers cut off both the water and electricity. Insurance are
>> meant to be pumping out the water, but nothing done as yet.
>>
>> Son in law has been keeping me updated. When he said the power was off, I
>> ran a cable reel to their kitchen from my house (fed from an MCBO
>> protected ring) So at least she can watch TV - the only thing she does
>> now. And a table light and the microwave. So she can have hot drinks and
>> meals. Using bottled water, etc. Her cooker is electric, but does have a
>> gas fire in the kitchen which works.
>>
>> She refuses to go in a home of any sort. Her kids simply don't have room
>> for her - and she is adamant she doesn't want to live with either of them
>> anyway (I'm told) One of the daughters has lost patience and hardly ever
>> calls.
>>
>> The pipe should be easy enough to fix once the cellar is dry enough.
>>
>> The electrics I know to be a total loss - all the lighting is pre-WW2, but
>> a ring was added by her husband in the 60s. And she isn't willing to pay
>> for a re-wire or put up with the disruption it would cause. A quote one of
>> the kids got was 12K.
>>
>> Is it possible to get a temporary supply laid on? If only the ring was
>> connected to it that would be good enough for now.
>>
>> She has agreed to move to a smaller place if one can be found nearby. And
>> sell the house to pay for it. But I reckon something needs to be done
>> sooner to make life bearable until then - ie just the same for her as it
>> has been for the past two years. As moving is likely not going to be done
>> quickly.
>
> 12k is nuts, unless it's a real large house.

It's London, and the house is probably worth £500K+ even in that state.
London Tradesmen quote 'appropriately' :-(

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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 by: Colin Bignell - Sat, 14 May 2022 23:11 UTC

On 14/05/2022 19:00, Andrew wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 17:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
....
>> Even decades ago, when I worked for an Electricity Board, we wouldn't
>> have accepted that. It smacks of somebody wanting to get a
>> sub-standard system installed, once the power is to the house.
>>
>
> I thought they insisted that the installation complied with BS7671 ?
>

IEE Regs 14th Edition in my day, but they were not legally enforceable,
so engineers had to make judgements, based upon experience.

--
Colin Bignell

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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From: tabbyp...@gmail.com (Animal)
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 by: Animal - Sun, 15 May 2022 22:06 UTC

On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 00:11:24 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 19:00, Andrew wrote:
> > On 13/05/2022 17:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
> ...
> >> Even decades ago, when I worked for an Electricity Board, we wouldn't
> >> have accepted that. It smacks of somebody wanting to get a
> >> sub-standard system installed, once the power is to the house.
> >>
> >
> > I thought they insisted that the installation complied with BS7671 ?
> >
> IEE Regs 14th Edition in my day, but they were not legally enforceable,
> so engineers had to make judgements, based upon experience.

recently a house was reconnected that had partially 1930s wiring with a 60s CU. Butit hadn't been condemned as dangerous or disconnected previously, it just got a new incomer.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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 by: Animal - Sun, 15 May 2022 22:08 UTC

On Saturday, 14 May 2022 at 19:07:06 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
> On 12/05/2022 22:13, Animal wrote:
> > On Thursday, 12 May 2022 at 11:11:18 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> >> Back story.
> >> Next door neighbour is a widow near 90 living on her own. Very stubborn.
> >> Was born in her house and wants to die in it. Totally housebound and won't
> >> have any visitors since Covid. So haven't even spoken to her for a couple
> >> of years. Sad, as we got on well enough. She has family who call in every
> >> day, though.
> >>
> >> Last week a pipe in the cellar split and flooded it - and next door's
> >> cellar too. Daughter waded into the cellar to turn off the water and got a
> >> bad electric shock. Ended up in A&E - but on the mend now.
> >>
> >> Service suppliers cut off both the water and electricity. Insurance are
> >> meant to be pumping out the water, but nothing done as yet.
> >>
> >> Son in law has been keeping me updated. When he said the power was off, I
> >> ran a cable reel to their kitchen from my house (fed from an MCBO
> >> protected ring) So at least she can watch TV - the only thing she does
> >> now. And a table light and the microwave. So she can have hot drinks and
> >> meals. Using bottled water, etc. Her cooker is electric, but does have a
> >> gas fire in the kitchen which works.
> >>
> >> She refuses to go in a home of any sort. Her kids simply don't have room
> >> for her - and she is adamant she doesn't want to live with either of them
> >> anyway (I'm told) One of the daughters has lost patience and hardly ever
> >> calls.
> >>
> >> The pipe should be easy enough to fix once the cellar is dry enough.
> >>
> >> The electrics I know to be a total loss - all the lighting is pre-WW2, but
> >> a ring was added by her husband in the 60s. And she isn't willing to pay
> >> for a re-wire or put up with the disruption it would cause. A quote one of
> >> the kids got was 12K.
> >>
> >> Is it possible to get a temporary supply laid on? If only the ring was
> >> connected to it that would be good enough for now.
> >>
> >> She has agreed to move to a smaller place if one can be found nearby. And
> >> sell the house to pay for it. But I reckon something needs to be done
> >> sooner to make life bearable until then - ie just the same for her as it
> >> has been for the past two years. As moving is likely not going to be done
> >> quickly.
> >
> > 12k is nuts, unless it's a real large house.
>
>
> It's London, and the house is probably worth £500K+ even in that state.
> London Tradesmen quote 'appropriately' :-(

Might be worth getting a quote from someone way outside the area. Maybe somewhere relatively deprived.

Re: Temporary electricity supply.

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 by: Colin Bignell - Sun, 15 May 2022 22:29 UTC

On 15/05/2022 23:06, Animal wrote:
> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 00:11:24 UTC+1, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 14/05/2022 19:00, Andrew wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2022 17:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> ...
>>>> Even decades ago, when I worked for an Electricity Board, we wouldn't
>>>> have accepted that. It smacks of somebody wanting to get a
>>>> sub-standard system installed, once the power is to the house.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I thought they insisted that the installation complied with BS7671 ?
>>>
>> IEE Regs 14th Edition in my day, but they were not legally enforceable,
>> so engineers had to make judgements, based upon experience.
>
> recently a house was reconnected that had partially 1930s wiring with a 60s CU. Butit hadn't been condemned as dangerous or disconnected previously, it just got a new incomer.

Which, in my day, would have been a different department. The incomer
would be the Engineering Department. From the company fuses onwards was
the Commercial Department. Different skill sets and different
responsibilities.

--
Colin Bignell

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