The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
outlines plans to modernise the industry.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023

Good evening and thank you to Andy Bagnall and his team at Rail Partners
for organising this event and for inviting me to deliver what is my first
rail speech since becoming Transport Secretary.

What a fantastic setting this is, surrounded by reminders of Britain’s
glorious engineering history and Bradshaw in whose name we meet today (7
February 2023). Whose timetables brought order to the chaos of the
Victorian network is as much a part of rail’s story as Stephenson, Brunel
and others honoured throughout this building.

I would also like to pay tribute to Adrian Shooter who sadly passed away in
December. Over the past 30 years, few have played a bigger role in the
growth and modernisation of the railways and I’m sure he’s missed by many a
friend and colleague here today.

continues on link above….

In message <trui15$3t536$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:29 on Tue, 7 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>
>https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>
>Good evening and thank you to Andy Bagnall and his team at Rail Partners
>for organising this event and for inviting me to deliver what is my first
>rail speech since becoming Transport Secretary.
>
>What a fantastic setting this is, surrounded by reminders of Britain’s
>glorious engineering history and Bradshaw in whose name we meet today (7
>February 2023). Whose timetables brought order to the chaos of the
>Victorian network is as much a part of rail’s story as Stephenson, Brunel
>and others honoured throughout this building.
>
>I would also like to pay tribute to Adrian Shooter who sadly passed away in
>December. Over the past 30 years, few have played a bigger role in the
>growth and modernisation of the railways and I’m sure he’s missed by many a
>friend and colleague here today.
>
>continues on link above….

"The government's policy is clear. The Plan for Rail <https://www.gov.
uk/government/publications/great-british-railways-williams-shapps-plan-
for-rail> has already been announced to the House of Commons in May 2021
so delivering that policy, moving from the words to action that is my
priority."

<Thread convergence>

"after LNER's successful single leg pricing trial we'll extend it to
other parts of the LNER network from the spring and then carefully
consider the results of those before extending more widely."

"We're also going to learn from the aviation sector and better manage
capacity as well as raise revenue by trialling demand-based pricing on
some LNER services too"

And...

"we will establish Great British Railways, or GBR... I am pleased to
announce that the winner of the GBR HQ competition will be revealed
before Easter" <-- that's normally code for on Maundy Thursday, also
hoping any bad-losers don't get traction in the news cycle {rp}

Return to some form of franchising (but will have to wait for GBR to set
the parameters...

"Which brings me to the final area of reform. To enhance the role of
the private sector, which I see as central to the future of the
railways."

For the geeks...

"We'll also open up railway data and systems, whilst lowering barriers
to entry for the industry."
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <trui15$3t536$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:29 on Tue, 7 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>
>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>
>> Good evening and thank you to Andy Bagnall and his team at Rail Partners
>> for organising this event and for inviting me to deliver what is my first
>> rail speech since becoming Transport Secretary.
>>
>> What a fantastic setting this is, surrounded by reminders of Britain’s
>> glorious engineering history and Bradshaw in whose name we meet today (7
>> February 2023). Whose timetables brought order to the chaos of the
>> Victorian network is as much a part of rail’s story as Stephenson, Brunel
>> and others honoured throughout this building.
>>
>> I would also like to pay tribute to Adrian Shooter who sadly passed away in
>> December. Over the past 30 years, few have played a bigger role in the
>> growth and modernisation of the railways and I’m sure he’s missed by many a
>> friend and colleague here today.
>>
>> continues on link above….
>
> "The government's policy is clear. The Plan for Rail <https://www.gov.
> uk/government/publications/great-british-railways-williams-shapps-plan-
> for-rail> has already been announced to the House of Commons in May 2021
> so delivering that policy, moving from the words to action that is my
> priority."
>
> <Thread convergence>
>
> "after LNER's successful single leg pricing trial we'll extend it to
> other parts of the LNER network from the spring and then carefully
> consider the results of those before extending more widely."
>
> "We're also going to learn from the aviation sector and better manage
> capacity as well as raise revenue by trialling demand-based pricing on
> some LNER services too"
>
> And...
>
> "we will establish Great British Railways, or GBR... I am pleased to
> announce that the winner of the GBR HQ competition will be revealed
> before Easter" <-- that's normally code for on Maundy Thursday, also
> hoping any bad-losers don't get traction in the news cycle {rp}
>
> Return to some form of franchising (but will have to wait for GBR to set
> the parameters...
>
> "Which brings me to the final area of reform. To enhance the role of
> the private sector, which I see as central to the future of the
> railways."
>
> For the geeks...
>
> "We'll also open up railway data and systems, whilst lowering barriers
> to entry for the industry."

I thought demand based pricing was what Advance tickets were all about? Or
does this perhaps mean adjusting peak/off peak times, perhaps by day?

On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023

That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>
>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>
> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.

And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
18 months.

In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>
>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>
>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>
>And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>18 months.

The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
done in 18 months.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts03s7$5uuk$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:17:11 on Wed, 8 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <trui15$3t536$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:29 on Tue, 7 Feb
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>
>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>
>>> Good evening and thank you to Andy Bagnall and his team at Rail Partners
>>> for organising this event and for inviting me to deliver what is my first
>>> rail speech since becoming Transport Secretary.
>>>
>>> What a fantastic setting this is, surrounded by reminders of Britain’s
>>> glorious engineering history and Bradshaw in whose name we meet today (7
>>> February 2023). Whose timetables brought order to the chaos of the
>>> Victorian network is as much a part of rail’s story as Stephenson, Brunel
>>> and others honoured throughout this building.
>>>
>>> I would also like to pay tribute to Adrian Shooter who sadly passed away in
>>> December. Over the past 30 years, few have played a bigger role in the
>>> growth and modernisation of the railways and I’m sure he’s
>>>missed by many a
>>> friend and colleague here today.
>>>
>>> continues on link above….
>>
>> "The government's policy is clear. The Plan for Rail <https://www.gov.
>> uk/government/publications/great-british-railways-williams-shapps-plan-
>> for-rail> has already been announced to the House of Commons in May 2021
>> so delivering that policy, moving from the words to action that is my
>> priority."
>>
>> <Thread convergence>
>>
>> "after LNER's successful single leg pricing trial we'll extend it to
>> other parts of the LNER network from the spring and then carefully
>> consider the results of those before extending more widely."
>>
>> "We're also going to learn from the aviation sector and better manage
>> capacity as well as raise revenue by trialling demand-based pricing on
>> some LNER services too"
>>
>> And...
>>
>> "we will establish Great British Railways, or GBR... I am pleased to
>> announce that the winner of the GBR HQ competition will be revealed
>> before Easter" <-- that's normally code for on Maundy Thursday, also
>> hoping any bad-losers don't get traction in the news cycle {rp}
>>
>> Return to some form of franchising (but will have to wait for GBR to set
>> the parameters...
>>
>> "Which brings me to the final area of reform. To enhance the role of
>> the private sector, which I see as central to the future of the
>> railways."
>>
>> For the geeks...
>>
>> "We'll also open up railway data and systems, whilst lowering barriers
>> to entry for the industry."
>
>I thought demand based pricing was what Advance tickets were all about? Or
>does this perhaps mean adjusting peak/off peak times, perhaps by day?

There have been some experiments with the latter, for example relaxing
restrictions on Peak trains just before the evening off-peak on a
Friday, to relieve the overcrowding on the first off-peak trains.

Meanwhile, there have been many mentions over the years of a pricing
scheme which wasn't just Peak vs Off-peak, but also a concept of
Shoulder-peak.

To some extent we should ask what the motivation is: to spread the load
over the available capacity, or to price-gouge people with a need to
travel on what turn out to be crowded trains (in the limit, to charge
people *more* for standing).
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>
>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>
>>And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>18 months.
>
>The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>done in 18 months.

Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?

On 08/02/2023 14:35, Recliner wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>
>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>
>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>> 18 months.
>>
>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>> done in 18 months.
>
> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?

No. But they may be stuck with the plans if the Tories find a way to
make it too expensive to change things.

In message <nnc7uh5hpp5jvues9nt0v33sg6qipg79ic@4ax.com>, at 14:35:16 on
Wed, 8 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>
>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>
>>>And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>18 months.
>>
>>The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>done in 18 months.
>
>Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?

Why would they be.

Politicians are often criticised for only doing short-term planning, now
you seem to be criticising them for doing long term planning.

Heigh, ho.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/02/2023 12:43, Recliner wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>
>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>
>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>
> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
> 18 months.
>

14 months at the outside.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/02/2023 12:43, Recliner wrote:
>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>
>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>
>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>> 18 months.
>>
>
> 14 months at the outside.

The election could be up to 23 months away.

On 08/02/2023 22:44, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/02/2023 12:43, Recliner wrote:
>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>
>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>
>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>> 18 months.
>>>
>>
>> 14 months at the outside.
>
> The election could be up to 23 months away.
>

Could be but highly unlikely. The tories need warm weather to get their
core vote out.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/02/2023 22:44, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2023 12:43, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>
>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>
>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>> 18 months.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 14 months at the outside.
>>
>> The election could be up to 23 months away.
>>
>
> Could be but highly unlikely. The tories need warm weather to get their
> core vote out.
>

It tends to be Labour voters who are fickle in bad weather. Tory voters
have cars.

On Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:35:16 +0000, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>
>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>
>>>And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>18 months.
>>
>>The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>done in 18 months.
>
>Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?

We know that incoming transport ministers from the same party don't
feel in any way bound by their predecessor, so what do you think?

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:35:16 +0000, Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>
>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>
>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>> 18 months.
>>>
>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>> done in 18 months.
>>
>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?
>
> We know that incoming transport ministers from the same party don't
> feel in any way bound by their predecessor, so what do you think?
>

Exactly!

When the Major government privatised the railway almost 30 years ago, it
knew that the likely Blair government with Prescott in charge of the
railway, would want to reverse the privatisation. So it deliberately
fragmented BR into as many pieces as possible, to make it impossible to
reassemble. While some form of privatisation might have been a good thing,
smashing the organisation into about 100 separate companies under diverse
ownership did real damage, and led to the loss of many capabilities and
skills. The dearth of new train orders also killed off most of the British
train building capacity. I hope we don't see a repeat of that.

In message <ts2gtd$l4ki$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:57 on Thu, 9 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:35:16 +0000, Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>>> 18 months.
>>>>
>>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>>> done in 18 months.
>>>
>>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?
>>
>> We know that incoming transport ministers from the same party don't
>> feel in any way bound by their predecessor, so what do you think?
>>
>
>Exactly!
>
>When the Major government privatised the railway almost 30 years ago, it
>knew that the likely Blair government with Prescott in charge of the
>railway, would want to reverse the privatisation. So it deliberately
>fragmented BR into as many pieces as possible, to make it impossible to
>reassemble. While some form of privatisation might have been a good thing,
>smashing the organisation into about 100 separate companies under diverse
>ownership did real damage, and led to the loss of many capabilities and
>skills. The dearth of new train orders also killed off most of the British
>train building capacity.

The newly privatised TOCs didn't order new trains (we know legacy BR
hadn't been for a while)?

Must have imagined the Voyagers and Pendolinos.

>I hope we don't see a repeat of that.

A repeat of re-writing history?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts2gtd$l4ki$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:57 on Thu, 9 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:35:16 +0000, Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>>>> 18 months.
>>>>>
>>>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>>>> done in 18 months.
>>>>
>>>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?
>>>
>>> We know that incoming transport ministers from the same party don't
>>> feel in any way bound by their predecessor, so what do you think?
>>>
>>
>> Exactly!
>>
>> When the Major government privatised the railway almost 30 years ago, it
>> knew that the likely Blair government with Prescott in charge of the
>> railway, would want to reverse the privatisation. So it deliberately
>> fragmented BR into as many pieces as possible, to make it impossible to
>> reassemble. While some form of privatisation might have been a good thing,
>> smashing the organisation into about 100 separate companies under diverse
>> ownership did real damage, and led to the loss of many capabilities and
>> skills. The dearth of new train orders also killed off most of the British
>> train building capacity.
>
> The newly privatised TOCs didn't order new trains (we know legacy BR
> hadn't been for a while)?

Yes. There was an infamous 1,064-day dry spell with no new passenger train
orders, which starved UK train factories. And it wasn't the Virgin order
that broke the fast, and saved Litchurch Lane.

>
> Must have imagined the Voyagers and Pendolinos.

You imagine that they were the first to be ordered, but they actually were
years later. And where do you think they were built (not just final
assembly)? Hint: they didn't save any UK train factories.

On 09.02.23 18:36, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts2gtd$l4ki$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:57 on Thu, 9 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:35:16 +0000, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>>>>> 18 months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>>>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>>>>> done in 18 months.
>>>>>
>>>>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?
>>>>
>>>> We know that incoming transport ministers from the same party don't
>>>> feel in any way bound by their predecessor, so what do you think?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly!
>>>
>>> When the Major government privatised the railway almost 30 years ago, it
>>> knew that the likely Blair government with Prescott in charge of the
>>> railway, would want to reverse the privatisation. So it deliberately
>>> fragmented BR into as many pieces as possible, to make it impossible to
>>> reassemble. While some form of privatisation might have been a good thing,
>>> smashing the organisation into about 100 separate companies under diverse
>>> ownership did real damage, and led to the loss of many capabilities and
>>> skills. The dearth of new train orders also killed off most of the British
>>> train building capacity.
>>
>> The newly privatised TOCs didn't order new trains (we know legacy BR
>> hadn't been for a while)?
>
> Yes. There was an infamous 1,064-day dry spell with no new passenger train
> orders, which starved UK train factories. And it wasn't the Virgin order
> that broke the fast, and saved Litchurch Lane.

Class 168s for Chiltern

>> Must have imagined the Voyagers and Pendolinos.
>
> You imagine that they were the first to be ordered, but they actually were
> years later. And where do you think they were built (not just final
> assembly)? Hint: they didn't save any UK train factories.

At least some of the Pendolini had some assembly in the UK, but the
Voyagers came from Belgium.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 09.02.23 18:36, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts2gtd$l4ki$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:57 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:35:16 +0000, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>>>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>>>>>> 18 months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>>>>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>>>>>> done in 18 months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?
>>>>>
>>>>> We know that incoming transport ministers from the same party don't
>>>>> feel in any way bound by their predecessor, so what do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exactly!
>>>>
>>>> When the Major government privatised the railway almost 30 years ago, it
>>>> knew that the likely Blair government with Prescott in charge of the
>>>> railway, would want to reverse the privatisation. So it deliberately
>>>> fragmented BR into as many pieces as possible, to make it impossible to
>>>> reassemble. While some form of privatisation might have been a good thing,
>>>> smashing the organisation into about 100 separate companies under diverse
>>>> ownership did real damage, and led to the loss of many capabilities and
>>>> skills. The dearth of new train orders also killed off most of the British
>>>> train building capacity.
>>>
>>> The newly privatised TOCs didn't order new trains (we know legacy BR
>>> hadn't been for a while)?
>>
>> Yes. There was an infamous 1,064-day dry spell with no new passenger train
>> orders, which starved UK train factories. And it wasn't the Virgin order
>> that broke the fast, and saved Litchurch Lane.
>
> Class 168s for Chiltern

Yup, several years before the Virgin orders. It led to the highly
successful Turbostar, and saved the Derby factory. But as it was a Chiltern
order, Roland obviously wouldn't know anything of it.

>
>>> Must have imagined the Voyagers and Pendolinos.
>>
>> You imagine that they were the first to be ordered, but they actually were
>> years later. And where do you think they were built (not just final
>> assembly)? Hint: they didn't save any UK train factories.
>
> At least some of the Pendolini had some assembly in the UK, but the
> Voyagers came from Belgium.
>

Yup, some of the early Pendos arrived as kits from Italy, to be assembled
in what remained of the former Met-Cam factory at Washwood Heath (once a
major train builder, for both BR and LU), but that had completely closed by
the time of the follow-up order, so the trains were fully built in Italy.
Without the privatisation delays, the new stock for the WCML would probably
have been built entirely in Washwood Heath.

The cleared Washwood Heath site is to be the depot site for the HS2 trains.

On 08/02/2023 14:35, Recliner wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>
>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>
>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>> 18 months.
>>
>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>> done in 18 months.
>
> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?

The Conservatives will make sure the contracts are signed before they
leave power.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 12:15:23 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>On 08/02/2023 14:35, Recliner wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>
>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>
>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>> 18 months.
>>>
>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>> done in 18 months.
>>
>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?
>
>The Conservatives will make sure the contracts are signed before they
>leave power.

They need to be contracts without early break clauses.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 12:15:23 +0000
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>On 08/02/2023 14:35, Recliner wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>
>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>
>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done within about
>>>> 18 months.
>>>
>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>> done in 18 months.
>>
>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's plans for GBR?
>
>The Conservatives will make sure the contracts are signed before they
>leave power.

Even if they didn't, it sounds like the sort of thing Labour would want to
do anyway.

I wonder how long before the "Great" is dropped if not officially then by
most of the public and possibly marketing.

In message <ts3uss$qekj$5@dont-email.me>, at 23:16:44 on Thu, 9 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 09.02.23 18:36, Recliner wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2gtd$l4ki$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:57 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:35:16 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>>>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising
>>>>>>>>>>anything.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>>>>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done
>>>>>>>>>within about
>>>>>>>>> 18 months.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>>>>>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>>>>>>> done in 18 months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's
>>>>>>>plans for GBR?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We know that incoming transport ministers from the same party don't
>>>>>> feel in any way bound by their predecessor, so what do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly!
>>>>>
>>>>> When the Major government privatised the railway almost 30 years ago, it
>>>>> knew that the likely Blair government with Prescott in charge of the
>>>>> railway, would want to reverse the privatisation. So it deliberately
>>>>> fragmented BR into as many pieces as possible, to make it impossible to
>>>>> reassemble. While some form of privatisation might have been a good thing,
>>>>> smashing the organisation into about 100 separate companies under diverse
>>>>> ownership did real damage, and led to the loss of many capabilities and
>>>>> skills. The dearth of new train orders also killed off most of the British
>>>>> train building capacity.
>>>>
>>>> The newly privatised TOCs didn't order new trains (we know legacy BR
>>>> hadn't been for a while)?
>>>
>>> Yes. There was an infamous 1,064-day dry spell with no new passenger train
>>> orders, which starved UK train factories. And it wasn't the Virgin order
>>> that broke the fast, and saved Litchurch Lane.
>>
>> Class 168s for Chiltern
>
>Yup, several years before the Virgin orders. It led to the highly
>successful Turbostar, and saved the Derby factory. But as it was a Chiltern
>order, Roland obviously wouldn't know anything of it.

Oddly enough, I don't claim to know everything about every train order.
But as you do, perhaps some dates will be forthcoming.

--
Roland Perry

In message <ts3aug$o31e$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:36:16 on Thu, 9 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts2gtd$l4ki$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:57 on Thu, 9 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:35:16 +0000, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 14:29:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <JNMEL.6$8tJc.3@fx14.ams1>, at 12:43:21 on Wed, 8 Feb 2023,
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 07/02/2023 22:06, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The Transport Secretary affirms his commitment to the rail sector and
>>>>>>>>> outlines plans to modernise the industry.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That all sounds very positive and promising, but then it's every
>>>>>>>> politician's job to sound positive without actually promising anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, even if h means it all, will he have chance to bring it all into
>>>>>>> effect before the next election? It seems a lot to get done
>>>>>>>within about
>>>>>>> 18 months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The speech has timelines in it, for example establishing GBR and them
>>>>>> deciding new franchising rules, which they make no pretense could be
>>>>>> done in 18 months.
>>>>>
>>>>> Will an incoming Labour administration feel bound by Harper's
>>>>>plans for GBR?
>>>>
>>>> We know that incoming transport ministers from the same party don't
>>>> feel in any way bound by their predecessor, so what do you think?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly!
>>>
>>> When the Major government privatised the railway almost 30 years ago, it
>>> knew that the likely Blair government with Prescott in charge of the
>>> railway, would want to reverse the privatisation. So it deliberately
>>> fragmented BR into as many pieces as possible, to make it impossible to
>>> reassemble. While some form of privatisation might have been a good thing,
>>> smashing the organisation into about 100 separate companies under diverse
>>> ownership did real damage, and led to the loss of many capabilities and
>>> skills. The dearth of new train orders also killed off most of the British
>>> train building capacity.
>>
>> The newly privatised TOCs didn't order new trains (we know legacy BR
>> hadn't been for a while)?
>
>Yes. There was an infamous 1,064-day dry spell with no new passenger train
>orders, which starved UK train factories. And it wasn't the Virgin order
>that broke the fast, and saved Litchurch Lane.

Can you put some dates on that, like when did Virgin get their
franchise, and when did they place their first orders.

>> Must have imagined the Voyagers and Pendolinos.
>
>You imagine that they were the first to be ordered, but they actually were
>years later.

Again some dates. Which were the first, and when were the Voyagers.

--
Roland Perry