Did a "Biker Down" workshop this week. 3-ish hour evening free session
run by volunteer retired m/c police and firemen.

Split into 3 sessions; what to do if you arrive at an incident, very
basic first aid and how to avoid having that accident in the first place.

A lot of it was things that I was aware of and no surprise, but a few
things did stand out.

I was interested to learn that what three words is actively sought and
used by the emergency services. I always wondered if it was advertised
more than used, but no, the services are actively encouraging its use.

The session on conspicuousness was really interesting as it pointed out
where hi viz worked and more often where it didn't. More importantly how
other road users can easily recognise a motorcycle "shape". 2 wheels,
motor between them and someone sat on top is recognised as a bike and
hence a "hazard". The use of colour (including high viz on the rider and
bike) and lights (wankers on GSs lit up like christmas trees) that break
up or disguise that shape make the bike less obvious as a hazard in the
glance of an eye despite efforts to make it more so.

What was the biggest surprise to me though was the current thinking on
helmet removal. Stats on accidents apparently show that by far the
biggest injuries are from blood loss and long bone breaks
(leg/arm/collar bone) and that C-spine injuries account for a minimal
number of serious injuries (less than 0.1%).

With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
(using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
interventions.

All in all a very informative evening.
--
Gyp

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:

>With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
>(using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
>head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
>It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
>interventions.

Interesting. It's long been taught that you'll (as a first-aider)
struggle to secure the airway of an unconscious patient wearing a
full-face helmet, so in such cases removal is nearly always needed.

Was there ever really a mantra to state that you should not do so?

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 21/11/2021 10:41, Ace wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>> With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
>> (using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
>> head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
>> It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
>> interventions.
>
> Interesting. It's long been taught that you'll (as a first-aider)
> struggle to secure the airway of an unconscious patient wearing a
> full-face helmet, so in such cases removal is nearly always needed.
>
> Was there ever really a mantra to state that you should not do so?

When I was a teen in the SJAB, we were taught not to. Also a few years
later in a workplace course for first aid.

El Sun, 21 Nov 2021 11:41:40 +0100, Ace escribió:

> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>>With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
>>(using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
>>head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
>>It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
>>interventions.
>
> Interesting. It's long been taught that you'll (as a first-aider)
> struggle to secure the airway of an unconscious patient wearing a
> full-face helmet, so in such cases removal is nearly always needed.
>
> Was there ever really a mantra to state that you should not do so?

There have always been stickers on sale to that effect:

https://www.tenstickers.in/stickers/do-not-remove-helmet-motorcycle-decal-
A19086

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:

>Did a "Biker Down" workshop this week. 3-ish hour evening free session
>run by volunteer retired m/c police and firemen.

<snip>

>All in all a very informative evening.

As was ours. We were amused by the suggestion that, to calm the rider,
the first thing you should do is assure them that the bike's ok - even
if it isn't.

--
Colin Irvine
FJR1300A

Colin Irvine <look@colinandpat.co.uk> Wrote in message:r
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:>Did a "Biker Down" workshop this week. 3-ish hour evening free session >run by volunteer retired m/c police and firemen.<snip>>All in all a very informative evening.As was ours. We were amused by the suggestion that, to calm the rider,the first thing you should do is assure them that the bike's ok - evenif it isn't.-- Colin IrvineFJR1300A

Love that

--
gyp
--

On 21/11/2021 13:55, Colin Irvine wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>> Did a "Biker Down" workshop this week. 3-ish hour evening free session
>> run by volunteer retired m/c police and firemen.
>
> <snip>
>
>> All in all a very informative evening.
>
> As was ours. We were amused by the suggestion that, to calm the rider,
> the first thing you should do is assure them that the bike's ok - even
> if it isn't.
>
Ha! I am told (but obvs do not remember) that I was needing repetitive
reassurance that the bike was ok after becoming unconscious after an
offing on the island some years ago near the station in Douglas.

Recovering the (unlocked) bike next day from by the wall, not only was
it ok - apart from a broken indicator lens - but the someone had even
found all the bits of said lens and stacked them neatly next to the bike!
:-)

C

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 11:41:40 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>>With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
>>(using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
>>head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
>>It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
>>interventions.

>Interesting. It's long been taught that you'll (as a first-aider)
>struggle to secure the airway of an unconscious patient wearing a
>full-face helmet, so in such cases removal is nearly always needed.

The IMC course [1] says - if they are breathing ok, leave their helmet
on, as there's nothing to be gained, and serious potential downside,
to poor removal. BUT, if they are not breathing, they've got a minute
or two at best, so get the helmet off

[1] Incident Management something, that I did as a TT marshal
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 13:55:20 +0000, Colin Irvine
<look@colinandpat.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>>Did a "Biker Down" workshop this week. 3-ish hour evening free session
>>run by volunteer retired m/c police and firemen.
>
><snip>
>
>>All in all a very informative evening.
>
>As was ours. We were amused by the suggestion that, to calm the rider,
>the first thing you should do is assure them that the bike's ok - even
>if it isn't.

To calm the rider's wife (at home) don't open the conversation with
the news that "he's in a neck brace".

Especially when specifically asked not to.
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On 21/11/2021 13:55, Colin Irvine wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>> Did a "Biker Down" workshop this week. 3-ish hour evening free session
>> run by volunteer retired m/c police and firemen.
>
> <snip>
>
>> All in all a very informative evening.
>
> As was ours. We were amused by the suggestion that, to calm the rider,
> the first thing you should do is assure them that the bike's ok - even
> if it isn't.

"The bike's fine. Both parts."

On 21/11/2021 18:41 Ace penned these words:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>> With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
>> (using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
>> head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
>> It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
>> interventions.
>
> Interesting. It's long been taught that you'll (as a first-aider)
> struggle to secure the airway of an unconscious patient wearing a
> full-face helmet, so in such cases removal is nearly always needed.
>
> Was there ever really a mantra to state that you should not do so?
>
As I recall it as taught was if they're conscious leave it or let them remove.
If they were unconscious and especially if not breathing then as you say you
need access to the airway.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 19:01:46 +0000, Salad Dodger
<salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:

>To calm the rider's wife (at home) don't open the conversation with
>the news that "he's in a neck brace".

Hah. Apparently my wife was informed by phone call, something like "We
have your husband, he's going to live."

Brutal.
--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 22/11/2021 09:55, Ace wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 19:01:46 +0000, Salad Dodger
> <salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:
>
>> To calm the rider's wife (at home) don't open the conversation with
>> the news that "he's in a neck brace".
>
> Hah. Apparently my wife was informed by phone call, something like "We
> have your husband, he's going to live."
>
> Brutal.
>

She definitely wouldn't want to get the news that you were going to live
like that. She definitely should have been sat down with a cup of tea
and appropriate support!

--
Gyp

On 22/11/2021 00:20, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 21/11/2021 13:55, Colin Irvine wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>>
>>> Did a "Biker Down" workshop this week. 3-ish hour evening free session
>>> run by volunteer retired m/c police and firemen.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> All in all a very informative evening.
>>
>> As was ours. We were amused by the suggestion that, to calm the rider,
>> the first thing you should do is assure them that the bike's ok - even
>> if it isn't.
>
> "The bike's fine. Both parts."
ROFL

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 11:54:42 +0000, Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 21/11/2021 10:41, Ace wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>>
>>> With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
>>> (using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
>>> head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
>>> It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
>>> interventions.
>>
>> Interesting. It's long been taught that you'll (as a first-aider)
>> struggle to secure the airway of an unconscious patient wearing a
>> full-face helmet, so in such cases removal is nearly always needed.
>>
>> Was there ever really a mantra to state that you should not do so?
>
>When I was a teen in the SJAB, we were taught not to. Also a few years
>later in a workplace course for first aid.

I misremember what exactly was taught about it, if anything, on the
early courses I did from scouts and onward, hence the question.

At what point, I wonder, did they first start using the ABC (Airways,
Breathing, Circulation)? I do recall that clearing airways was taught
as part of CPR, and the 'recovery position' for unconcious casualties
was always intended to avoid causing breathing difficulties, but I'm
not sure it was prioritised in the same way as it has been since I
started doing Mountain first aid traiing in the 1990s.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 17:07:39 +0000, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>The IMC course [1] says - if they are breathing ok, leave their helmet
>on, as there's nothing to be gained, and serious potential downside,
>to poor removal. BUT, if they are not breathing, they've got a minute
>or two at best, so get the helmet off

Trouble is, if they're unconscious you're not able to assess their
airway and breathing, so the current advice, and indeed what I've been
taught in the last decades, seems to make more sense.

I suspect that your IMC course paraphrasing should have read "if they
are conscious and breathing...".

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 21/11/2021 10:41, Ace wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>> With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
>> (using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
>> head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
>> It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
>> interventions.
>
> Interesting. It's long been taught that you'll (as a first-aider)
> struggle to secure the airway of an unconscious patient wearing a
> full-face helmet, so in such cases removal is nearly always needed.
>
> Was there ever really a mantra to state that you should not do so?
>

IIRC, if they are not breathing then you should remove it, after
supporting the neck.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 5:17:04 AM UTC-5, Gyp wrote:

<snip>
> All in all a very informative evening.

Very interesting information, and I'm glad you posted it.

I will confess to a curious set of emotions around the topic, which are pretty new to me. I find myself very very conscious of the danger inherent to riding motorcycles, which of course I always was - but apparently I used to be better at putting out of my mind. I wonder how that change is related to some of the following factors:
- getting older
- having children
- having had a spell of riding very little (living in the Middle East, then having an inappropriate bike in Colorado, then having no time when the kids were tiny)
- being aware that the KSI rate in the USA is substantially higher than in the UK
- having an absolutely beautiful bike that I really don't want to damage (never the case before)

Any help in getting my head straight would be gratefully received.

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 2:52:34 PM UTC, Ben Blaney wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 5:17:04 AM UTC-5, Gyp wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > All in all a very informative evening.
> Very interesting information, and I'm glad you posted it.
>
> I will confess to a curious set of emotions around the topic, which are pretty new to me. I find myself very very conscious of the danger inherent to riding motorcycles, which of course I always was - but apparently I used to be better at putting out of my mind. I wonder how that change is related to some of the following factors:
> - getting older
> - having children
> - having had a spell of riding very little (living in the Middle East, then having an inappropriate bike in Colorado, then having no time when the kids were tiny)
> - being aware that the KSI rate in the USA is substantially higher than in the UK
> - having an absolutely beautiful bike that I really don't want to damage (never the case before)
>
> Any help in getting my head straight would be gratefully received.

Nothing wrong with a little danger biker boy....

Ben Blaney <benblaney@gmail.com> wrote in
news:89ae6bda-0cd2-4c57-ad54-cf5eba67b20bn@googlegroups.com:

> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 5:17:04 AM UTC-5, Gyp wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> All in all a very informative evening.
>
> Very interesting information, and I'm glad you posted it.
>
> I will confess to a curious set of emotions around the topic, which
> are pretty new to me. I find myself very very conscious of the danger
> inherent to riding motorcycles, which of course I always was - but
> apparently I used to be better at putting out of my mind. I wonder
> how that change is related to some of the following factors:
> - getting older
> - having children
> - having had a spell of riding very little (living in the Middle
> East, then having an inappropriate bike in Colorado, then having no
> time when the kids were tiny) - being aware that the KSI rate in the
> USA is substantially higher than in the UK - having an absolutely
> beautiful bike that I really don't want to damage (never the case
> before)
>
> Any help in getting my head straight would be gratefully received.
>
>

all of the above - when I had an enforced absence after catching Hep E I
found I had to change bikes to get back into riding as the Super Tenere
was just too heavy to bother getting it out of the garage so I hardly
rode it. The bike I bought was effectively a UJM, what you call the
Yamaha FJ09 in the US. With this bike I resumed touring in Europe. A
pretty dull bike which has since been replaced with a S1000XR.

It was not wanting to lose the ability to see places in Europe that
motivated me to change bikes. Covid restrictions and further health
problems set me back again but a September trip to Scotland on the XR
has reinvigorated me and I have now planned 2 trips across the Channel
for 2022. I am just less ambitious about distance and will take a ferry
to Spain rather than ride.

Get a bike you want to ride and don't care if it gets manky or worn out
rather than building a museum to rival Jay Leno.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 06:52:31 -0800 (PST), Ben Blaney
<benblaney@gmail.com> wrote:

>I find myself very very conscious of the danger inherent to riding motorcycles, which of course I always was - but apparently I used to be better at putting out of my mind. I wonder how that change is related to some of the following factors:
> - getting older
> - having children

It's very noticeable in skiing that women who have children are much
more cautious when learning to ski than those who have not. Not
normally the case with men though...

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:28:55 AM UTC-5, wessie wrote:

> Get a bike you want to ride and don't care if it gets manky or worn out
> rather than building a museum to rival Jay Leno.

Yes, I think that's key. I've mentioned it a few times here, but I am currently spending a lot of time thinking about getting a touring bike to ride coast-to-coast on. Partly that's probably because of the enforced home-time during the pandemic, etc. And in a way, it's more a ride I want to ride than a bike I want to ride. But it'll get me out, clock up a bunch of miles, and perhaps will reinforce motorcycling a a key part of who I am.

That is if I don't die in a bike accident on the trip, of course.

On 11/22/2021 2:17 PM, Ben Blaney wrote:
> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:28:55 AM UTC-5, wessie wrote:
>
>> Get a bike you want to ride and don't care if it gets manky or worn out
>> rather than building a museum to rival Jay Leno.
>
> Yes, I think that's key. I've mentioned it a few times here, but I am currently spending a lot of time thinking about getting a touring bike to ride coast-to-coast on. Partly that's probably because of the enforced home-time during the pandemic, etc. And in a way, it's more a ride I want to ride than a bike I want to ride.

Yes. I've been riding Sport Tourers for a long time, with a short term
on a KLR dual sport. Bikes are a daily vehicle for me. I ride to the
cafe', the beach, shops, and occasionally the back country, and maybe
once a year on a big tour. A bike should be comfy, able to carry gear
and groceries, and fun to ride. I don't need a race bike, but it should
have enough power to do a motorway. Lots of bikes fit that category.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 22/11/2021 11:49, Ace wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 11:54:42 +0000, Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 21/11/2021 10:41, Ace wrote:
>>> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:17:01 +0000, Gyp <a@b.c> wrote:
>>>
>>>> With that in mind, the current advice is to always remove the helmet
>>>> (using a front /back rocking motion not side to side and supporting the
>>>> head throughout) irrespective of whether the rider is conscious or not.
>>>> It opens the airways, improves communication and simplifies all other
>>>> interventions.
>>>
>>> Interesting. It's long been taught that you'll (as a first-aider)
>>> struggle to secure the airway of an unconscious patient wearing a
>>> full-face helmet, so in such cases removal is nearly always needed.
>>>
>>> Was there ever really a mantra to state that you should not do so?
>>
>> When I was a teen in the SJAB, we were taught not to. Also a few years
>> later in a workplace course for first aid.
>
> I misremember what exactly was taught about it, if anything, on the
> early courses I did from scouts and onward, hence the question.
>
> At what point, I wonder, did they first start using the ABC (Airways,
> Breathing, Circulation)? I do recall that clearing airways was taught
> as part of CPR, and the 'recovery position' for unconcious casualties
> was always intended to avoid causing breathing difficulties, but I'm
> not sure it was prioritised in the same way as it has been since I
> started doing Mountain first aid traiing in the 1990s.

I think ABC took over from BBB (breathing, bleeding, bones), or perhaps
it would be better to say it became the first priority, somewhere in the
early 1970s.

Ben Blaney <benblaney@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ef30f070-793b-4c5c-840d-74ca4c0d6b70n@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:28:55 AM UTC-5, wessie wrote:
>
>> Get a bike you want to ride and don't care if it gets manky or worn
>> out
>
>> rather than building a museum to rival Jay Leno.
>
> Yes, I think that's key. I've mentioned it a few times here, but I am
> currently spending a lot of time thinking about getting a touring bike
> to ride coast-to-coast on. Partly that's probably because of the
> enforced home-time during the pandemic, etc. And in a way, it's more
> a ride I want to ride than a bike I want to ride. But it'll get me
> out, clock up a bunch of miles, and perhaps will reinforce
> motorcycling a a key part of who I am.
>

get an FJR1300 like Turby & Mike have - much better than the Honda you have
mentioned

are your kids old enough & interested to be involved? Would their mother
permit such shenanigans?

> That is if I don't die in a bike accident on the trip, of course.

a near death experience is life affirming

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:37:19 PM UTC-5, Turby wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 2:17 PM, Ben Blaney wrote:
> > On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:28:55 AM UTC-5, wessie wrote:
> >
> >> Get a bike you want to ride and don't care if it gets manky or worn out
> >> rather than building a museum to rival Jay Leno.
> >
> > Yes, I think that's key. I've mentioned it a few times here, but I am currently spending a lot of time thinking about getting a touring bike to ride coast-to-coast on. Partly that's probably because of the enforced home-time during the pandemic, etc. And in a way, it's more a ride I want to ride than a bike I want to ride.
> Yes. I've been riding Sport Tourers for a long time, with a short term
> on a KLR dual sport. Bikes are a daily vehicle for me. I ride to the
> cafe', the beach, shops, and occasionally the back country, and maybe
> once a year on a big tour. A bike should be comfy, able to carry gear
> and groceries, and fun to ride. I don't need a race bike, but it should
> have enough power to do a motorway. Lots of bikes fit that category.

Bikes are a six month a year hobby here in Upstate NY! My friend George counts down to "the first day of motorcycle season" when thing are gloomy during the winter.