Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18 min delay
which of course I didn't find out about until I got to the platform thanks
to no info before the gates.

Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the priviledge of
standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a staff member. What
arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they think I could have travelled to
in 2 mins?

Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at midnight. I asked
how a refund would work on an oyster card with no account at which point the
TILT sign appeared above his head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had
a clue and sorted it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down.

After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of bollocks
out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....

Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of
> bollocks out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....

Now, now, there's no need for cynicism, to be intentional would
imply that somebody clever was involved in the process... ;-)

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18 min delay
> which of course I didn't find out about until I got to the platform thanks
> to no info before the gates.
>
> Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the priviledge of
> standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a staff member. What
> arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they think I could have travelled to
> in 2 mins?
>
> Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at midnight. I asked
> how a refund would work on an oyster card with no account at which point the
> TILT sign appeared above his head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had
> a clue and sorted it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down.
>
> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of bollocks
> out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....

It's a form of TfL tourist tax.

On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:44:44 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18 min delay
>> which of course I didn't find out about until I got to the platform thanks
>> to no info before the gates.
>>
>> Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the priviledge of
>> standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a staff member. What
>> arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they think I could have travelled
>to
>> in 2 mins?
>>
>> Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at midnight. I asked
>
>> how a refund would work on an oyster card with no account at which point the
>> TILT sign appeared above his head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had
>> a clue and sorted it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down.
>>
>> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of bollocks
>
>> out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>
>It's a form of TfL tourist tax.

Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
be aware of it.

On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:27:02 -0000 (UTC)
"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of
>> bollocks out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>
>Now, now, there's no need for cynicism, to be intentional would
>imply that somebody clever was involved in the process... ;-)

The people who designed the gating system both hardware and software are
not stupid and I don't believe they never considered this issue so its almost
certainly intentional. Another way of raising revenue and hope people don't
check on the way out. Its why I use an oyster card and not contactless because
with the latter they can take you to the cleaners and you won't know until
you check your account but with oyster you can see immediately at the gate.

In message <tvjt3m$1kbfs$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:10 on Fri, 24 Mar
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:27:02 -0000 (UTC)
>"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of
>>> bollocks out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>
>>Now, now, there's no need for cynicism, to be intentional would
>>imply that somebody clever was involved in the process... ;-)
>
>The people who designed the gating system both hardware and software are
>not stupid and I don't believe they never considered this issue so its almost
>certainly intentional. Another way of raising revenue and hope people don't
>check on the way out. Its why I use an oyster card and not contactless because
>with the latter they can take you to the cleaners and you won't know until
>you check your account but with oyster you can see immediately at the gate.

And with Oyster you could go to a TVM and get a printout. I haven't
tried that for years - is it still possible?
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 07:13:05 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tvjt3m$1kbfs$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:10 on Fri, 24 Mar
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:27:02 -0000 (UTC)
>>"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>>>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of
>>>> bollocks out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>>
>>>Now, now, there's no need for cynicism, to be intentional would
>>>imply that somebody clever was involved in the process... ;-)
>>
>>The people who designed the gating system both hardware and software are
>>not stupid and I don't believe they never considered this issue so its almost
>>certainly intentional. Another way of raising revenue and hope people don't
>>check on the way out. Its why I use an oyster card and not contactless because
>
>>with the latter they can take you to the cleaners and you won't know until
>>you check your account but with oyster you can see immediately at the gate.
>
>And with Oyster you could go to a TVM and get a printout. I haven't
>tried that for years - is it still possible?

God knows. I've certainly never seen one. You can certainly get it on screen but
whether it'll print it out is another matter. Do the current machines even
have general purpose printers rather than just ticket ones?

On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:44:44 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18 min delay
>>> which of course I didn't find out about until I got to the platform thanks
>>> to no info before the gates.
>>>
>>> Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the priviledge of
>>> standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a staff member. What
>>> arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they think I could have travelled
>>to
>>> in 2 mins?
>>>
>>> Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at midnight. I asked
>>
>>> how a refund would work on an oyster card with no account at which point the
>>> TILT sign appeared above his head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had
>>> a clue and sorted it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down.
>>>
>>> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of bollocks
>>
>>> out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>
>>It's a form of TfL tourist tax.
>
>Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>be aware of it.

Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's say you pass through the gate, then want to get
your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave), and they enter that way. So, two of you get into
the system, for free. People who know their exit station is not barriered probably were doing that, so TfL put a penalty
on leaving the same station too soon, with an automatic refund if it was legit (eg, entering within a few minutes from
another, adjacent station).

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 12:00:53 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>be aware of it.
>
>Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's say you
>pass through the gate, then want to get
>your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave), and they
>enter that way. So, two of you get into
>the system, for free. People who know their exit station is not barriered

So they should barrier every exit or have more grippers. I can't imagine that
would happen often anyway.

>probably were doing that, so TfL put a penalty
>on leaving the same station too soon, with an automatic refund if it was legit
>(eg, entering within a few minutes from
>another, adjacent station).

But no refund if their service is shit and you decide not to use it unless
you go find someone to sort it manually. Brilliant.

In message <tvmlsd$25l8n$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:28:13 on Sat, 25 Mar
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 07:13:05 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tvjt3m$1kbfs$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:10 on Fri, 24 Mar
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:27:02 -0000 (UTC)
>>>"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>>>>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of
>>>>> bollocks out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>>>
>>>>Now, now, there's no need for cynicism, to be intentional would
>>>>imply that somebody clever was involved in the process... ;-)
>>>
>>>The people who designed the gating system both hardware and software are
>>>not stupid and I don't believe they never considered this issue so its almost
>>>certainly intentional. Another way of raising revenue and hope people don't
>>>check on the way out. Its why I use an oyster card and not
>>>contactless because
>>
>>>with the latter they can take you to the cleaners and you won't know until
>>>you check your account but with oyster you can see immediately at the gate.
>>
>>And with Oyster you could go to a TVM and get a printout. I haven't
>>tried that for years - is it still possible?
>
>God knows. I've certainly never seen one. You can certainly get it on
>screen but whether it'll print it out is another matter. Do the current
>machines even have general purpose printers rather than just ticket ones?

I suppose they used a printer that was installed to issue receipts.
--
Roland Perry

In message <iaot1i1nva928n0devvunhp2jo61t7vtrd@4ax.com>, at 12:00:53 on
Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:44:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18 min delay
>>>> which of course I didn't find out about until I got to the platform thanks
>>>> to no info before the gates.
>>>>
>>>> Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the priviledge of
>>>> standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a staff member. What
>>>> arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they think I could have travelled
>>>to
>>>> in 2 mins?
>>>>
>>>> Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at
>>>>midnight. I asked
>>>
>>>> how a refund would work on an oyster card with no account at which
>>>>point the
>>>> TILT sign appeared above his head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had
>>>> a clue and sorted it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down.
>>>>
>>>> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort
>>>>of bollocks
>>>
>>>> out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>>
>>>It's a form of TfL tourist tax.
>>
>>Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>be aware of it.
>
>Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's
>say you pass through the gate, then want to get
>your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave),
>and they enter that way. So, two of you get into
>the system, for free.

That's an entirely different fraud vector, call "passback". Old as the
hills, long before ticketing went electronic.

Typical example being a mardy child buys a paper all-day bus ticket with
cash, then hands it out of the window for their friend to use to get
onto the same bus.

--
Roland Perry

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 12:00:53 +0000
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>> be aware of it.
>>
>> Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's say you
>> pass through the gate, then want to get
>> your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave), and they
>> enter that way. So, two of you get into
>> the system, for free. People who know their exit station is not barriered
>
> So they should barrier every exit or have more grippers.

Most DLR stations only have pads, not barriers. And quite a few LU and LO
stations have some unbarriered exits (eg, to a car park).

> I can't imagine that would happen often anyway.
>
>> probably were doing that, so TfL put a penalty
>> on leaving the same station too soon, with an automatic refund if it was legit
>> (eg, entering within a few minutes from
>> another, adjacent station).
>
> But no refund if their service is shit and you decide not to use it unless
> you go find someone to sort it manually. Brilliant.

No, I think it's normally automatic.

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:16:17 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 12:00:53 +0000
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>>> be aware of it.
>>>
>>> Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's say you
>
>>> pass through the gate, then want to get
>>> your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave), and
>they
>>> enter that way. So, two of you get into
>>> the system, for free. People who know their exit station is not barriered
>>
>> So they should barrier every exit or have more grippers.
>
>Most DLR stations only have pads, not barriers. And quite a few LU and LO

The DLR has always been an oddity for unknown reasons. The amount of fare
dodging in it must be through the roof. And it doesn't help that they have
the pads at the station entrance, not the logical place on the platforms.

>stations have some unbarriered exits (eg, to a car park).

Thats up to them.

>> But no refund if their service is shit and you decide not to use it unless
>> you go find someone to sort it manually. Brilliant.
>
>No, I think it's normally automatic.

Well it didn't happen automatically and I wasn't planning on waiting until the
next time I use the tube to find out if it worked on anonymous Oysters with
no linked account.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 12:00:53 +0000
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>> be aware of it.
>>
>> Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's say you
>> pass through the gate, then want to get
>> your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave), and they
>> enter that way. So, two of you get into
>> the system, for free. People who know their exit station is not barriered
>
> So they should barrier every exit or have more grippers. I can't imagine that
> would happen often anyway.
>
>> probably were doing that, so TfL put a penalty
>> on leaving the same station too soon, with an automatic refund if it was legit
>> (eg, entering within a few minutes from
>> another, adjacent station).
>
> But no refund if their service is shit and you decide not to use it unless
> you go find someone to sort it manually. Brilliant.
>
>

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-5

Same station exits
If you touch contactless (card or device) or an Oyster card on a yellow
card reader when you enter a station, and then touch out to exit it within
a short period of time, you'll be charged a same station exit:

Between 0 - 2 minutes: a maximum fare. If you re-enter the same or a
different station within 45 minutes, you'll be refunded. This doesn't apply
if you take a bus or tram before re-entering a station
Between 2 - 30 minutes: minimum pay as you go fare from that station
More than 30 minutes: we'll assume two separate journeys have been made and
both will be incomplete. You'll be charged two maximum fares

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <iaot1i1nva928n0devvunhp2jo61t7vtrd@4ax.com>, at 12:00:53 on
> Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:44:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18 min delay
>>>>> which of course I didn't find out about until I got to the platform thanks
>>>>> to no info before the gates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the priviledge of
>>>>> standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a staff member. What
>>>>> arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they think I could have travelled
>>>> to
>>>>> in 2 mins?
>>>>>
>>>>> Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at
>>>>> midnight. I asked
>>>>
>>>>> how a refund would work on an oyster card with no account at which
>>>>> point the
>>>>> TILT sign appeared above his head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had
>>>>> a clue and sorted it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down.
>>>>>
>>>>> After 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort
>>>>> of bollocks
>>>>
>>>>> out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>>>
>>>> It's a form of TfL tourist tax.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>> be aware of it.
>>
>> Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's
>> say you pass through the gate, then want to get
>> your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave),
>> and they enter that way. So, two of you get into
>> the system, for free.
>
> That's an entirely different fraud vector, call "passback". Old as the
> hills, long before ticketing went electronic.

No, this isn't passback.

>
> Typical example being a mardy child buys a paper all-day bus ticket with
> cash, then hands it out of the window for their friend to use to get
> onto the same bus.

Which isn't the trick I described.

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:16:17 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 12:00:53 +0000
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>>>> be aware of it.
>>>>
>>>> Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's say you
>>
>>>> pass through the gate, then want to get
>>>> your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave), and
>>they
>>>> enter that way. So, two of you get into
>>>> the system, for free. People who know their exit station is not barriered
>>>
>>> So they should barrier every exit or have more grippers.
>>
>>Most DLR stations only have pads, not barriers. And quite a few LU and LO
>
>The DLR has always been an oddity for unknown reasons. The amount of fare
>dodging in it must be through the roof. And it doesn't help that they have
>the pads at the station entrance, not the logical place on the platforms.
>
>>stations have some unbarriered exits (eg, to a car park).
>
>Thats up to them.
>
>>> But no refund if their service is shit and you decide not to use it unless
>>> you go find someone to sort it manually. Brilliant.
>>
>>No, I think it's normally automatic.
>
>Well it didn't happen automatically and I wasn't planning on waiting until the
>next time I use the tube to find out if it worked on anonymous Oysters with
>no linked account.

You're asking to be short-changed if you don't provide a way for refunds to be made.

In message <tvnlgh$2b197$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:28:01 on Sat, 25 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <iaot1i1nva928n0devvunhp2jo61t7vtrd@4ax.com>, at 12:00:53 on
>> Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:44:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18
>>>>>>min delay which of course I didn't find out about until I got to
>>>>>>the platform thanks to no info before the gates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the
>>>>>>priviledge of standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a
>>>>>>staff member. What arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they
>>>>>>think I could have travelled to
>>>>>> in 2 mins?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at
>>>>>>midnight. I asked how a refund would work on an oyster card
>>>>>>with no account at which point the TILT sign appeared above his
>>>>>>head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had a clue and sorted
>>>>>>it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down. After
>>>>>>20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of bollocks
>>>>>
>>>>>> out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a form of TfL tourist tax.
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>>> be aware of it.
>>>
>>> Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's
>>> say you pass through the gate, then want to get
>>> your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave),
*********************************************
>>> and they enter that way.
***************************

>>>So, two of you get into the system, for free.
>>
>> That's an entirely different fraud vector, call "passback". Old as the
>> hills, long before ticketing went electronic.
>
>No, this isn't passback.

This/that. What/which? The asterisked text above is very much in the
same class of fraud as passback, even though you don't physically hand
the card to your co-conspirator.

>> Typical example being a mardy child buys a paper all-day bus ticket with
>> cash, then hands it out of the window for their friend to use to get
>> onto the same bus.
>
>Which isn't the trick I described.

--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 13:57:08 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>Well it didn't happen automatically and I wasn't planning on waiting until the
>
>>next time I use the tube to find out if it worked on anonymous Oysters with
>>no linked account.
>
>You're asking to be short-changed if you don't provide a way for refunds to be
>made.

There are enough companies with my bank details. TfL doesn't need to be
another one nor do I want to be tracked by them.

If push comes to shove its fairly easy to dodge the fare on part of my
journey and get my money back that way over a few trips.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tvnlgh$2b197$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:28:01 on Sat, 25 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <iaot1i1nva928n0devvunhp2jo61t7vtrd@4ax.com>, at 12:00:53 on
>>> Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:44:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18
>>>>>>> min delay which of course I didn't find out about until I got to
>>>>>>> the platform thanks to no info before the gates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the
>>>>>>> priviledge of standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a
>>>>>>> staff member. What arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they
>>>>>>> think I could have travelled to
>>>>>>> in 2 mins?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at
>>>>>>> midnight. I asked how a refund would work on an oyster card
>>>>>>> with no account at which point the TILT sign appeared above his
>>>>>>> head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had a clue and sorted
>>>>>>> it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down. After
>>>>>>> 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of bollocks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a form of TfL tourist tax.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>>>> be aware of it.
>>>>
>>>> Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's
>>>> say you pass through the gate, then want to get
>>>> your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave),
> *********************************************
>>>> and they enter that way.
> ***************************
>
>>>> So, two of you get into the system, for free.
>>>
>>> That's an entirely different fraud vector, call "passback". Old as the
>>> hills, long before ticketing went electronic.
>>
>> No, this isn't passback.
>
> This/that. What/which? The asterisked text above is very much in the
> same class of fraud as passback, even though you don't physically hand
> the card to your co-conspirator.

It's very much not the same. The system logs one entry and one exit, not
two entries.

That's why, by default, it charges you if you exit the same station you've
just entered.

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 10:22:20 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> This/that. What/which? The asterisked text above is very much in the
>> same class of fraud as passback, even though you don't physically hand
>> the card to your co-conspirator.
>
>It's very much not the same. The system logs one entry and one exit, not
>two entries.
>
>That's why, by default, it charges you if you exit the same station you've
>just entered.

If they had 1 way turnstiles such as in paris and elsewhere letting your
mate in with your oyster wouldn't even be a problem as someone couldn't enter
via an exit gate. Or even 2 IR beams so if someone tries to enter in the
wrong direction the gate immediately shuts to stop them.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 10:22:20 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> This/that. What/which? The asterisked text above is very much in the
>>> same class of fraud as passback, even though you don't physically hand
>>> the card to your co-conspirator.
>>
>> It's very much not the same. The system logs one entry and one exit, not
>> two entries.
>>
>> That's why, by default, it charges you if you exit the same station you've
>> just entered.
>
> If they had 1 way turnstiles such as in paris and elsewhere letting your
> mate in with your oyster wouldn't even be a problem as someone couldn't enter
> via an exit gate. Or even 2 IR beams so if someone tries to enter in the
> wrong direction the gate immediately shuts to stop them.
>

Many (all?) of the gates are reversible, and their direction is tidal.

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 10:53:22 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 10:22:20 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> This/that. What/which? The asterisked text above is very much in the
>>>> same class of fraud as passback, even though you don't physically hand
>>>> the card to your co-conspirator.
>>>
>>> It's very much not the same. The system logs one entry and one exit, not
>>> two entries.
>>>
>>> That's why, by default, it charges you if you exit the same station you've
>>> just entered.
>>
>> If they had 1 way turnstiles such as in paris and elsewhere letting your
>> mate in with your oyster wouldn't even be a problem as someone couldn't
>enter
>> via an exit gate. Or even 2 IR beams so if someone tries to enter in the
>> wrong direction the gate immediately shuts to stop them.
>>
>
>Many (all?) of the gates are reversible, and their direction is tidal.

Yes I know. But they cope with 1 way gates elsewhere.

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:46:56 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 13:57:08 +0100
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>Well it didn't happen automatically and I wasn't planning on waiting until the
>>
>>>next time I use the tube to find out if it worked on anonymous Oysters with
>>>no linked account.
>>
>>You're asking to be short-changed if you don't provide a way for refunds to be
>>made.
>
>There are enough companies with my bank details. TfL doesn't need to be
>another one nor do I want to be tracked by them.

Huh? You can have a registered Oyster card without giving your bank details. That's what I used to have.

>
>If push comes to shove its fairly easy to dodge the fare on part of my
>journey and get my money back that way over a few trips.

Yup, fare dodging is your primary reason.

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 15:05:07 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:46:56 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 13:57:08 +0100
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>Well it didn't happen automatically and I wasn't planning on waiting until
>the
>>>
>>>>next time I use the tube to find out if it worked on anonymous Oysters with
>>>>no linked account.
>>>
>>>You're asking to be short-changed if you don't provide a way for refunds to
>be
>>>made.
>>
>>There are enough companies with my bank details. TfL doesn't need to be
>>another one nor do I want to be tracked by them.
>
>Huh? You can have a registered Oyster card without giving your bank details.
>That's what I used to have.

Ok, fair enough. They just want an email, home address and phone number.
Fuck that.

>>If push comes to shove its fairly easy to dodge the fare on part of my
>>journey and get my money back that way over a few trips.
>
>Yup, fare dodging is your primary reason.

Wtf are you babbling about now?

In message <tvrqos$36460$7@dont-email.me>, at 10:22:20 on Mon, 27 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tvnlgh$2b197$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:28:01 on Sat, 25 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <iaot1i1nva928n0devvunhp2jo61t7vtrd@4ax.com>, at 12:00:53 on
>>>> Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 10:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 23:44:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Was travelling from Canary Wharf back into town. A nice fat 18
>>>>>>>> min delay which of course I didn't find out about until I got to
>>>>>>>> the platform thanks to no info before the gates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Decided to get the DLR instead and got charged 6.40 for the
>>>>>>>> priviledge of standing on the EL platform for 2 mins talking to a
>>>>>>>> staff member. What arseclowns programmed the gates? Where do they
>>>>>>>> think I could have travelled to
>>>>>>>> in 2 mins?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another staff member said don't worry, it'll be refunded at
>>>>>>>> midnight. I asked how a refund would work on an oyster card
>>>>>>>> with no account at which point the TILT sign appeared above his
>>>>>>>> head. Luckily the LU guy at my destination had a clue and sorted
>>>>>>>> it out manually but if I hadn't checked I'd be 6.40 down. After
>>>>>>>> 20 years of Oyster you'd think they'd have sorted this sort of
>>>>>>>>bollocks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> out by now. Unless its intentional of course.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a form of TfL tourist tax.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wouldn't be surprised if its some kind of revenue raising. They can't not
>>>>>> be aware of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fundamentally, it's to prevent ticketless travel. For example, let's
>>>>> say you pass through the gate, then want to get
>>>>> your mate through. So, you touch the exit gate pad (but don't leave),
>> *********************************************
>>>>> and they enter that way.
>> ***************************
>>
>>>>> So, two of you get into the system, for free.
>>>>
>>>> That's an entirely different fraud vector, call "passback". Old as the
>>>> hills, long before ticketing went electronic.
>>>
>>> No, this isn't passback.
>>
>> This/that. What/which? The asterisked text above is very much in the
>> same class of fraud as passback, even though you don't physically hand
>> the card to your co-conspirator.
>
>It's very much not the same. The system logs one entry and one exit, not
>two entries.

As a form of fraud perpetrated by "fooling the barriers", it's very much
the same.

Different kinds of fraud are:

Using a child ticket when an adult
Buying a ticket with a stolen credit card
Only buying a ticket to the next station, then over-travelling
Sitting in a First Class seat with a Standard ticket
Using the return coupon multiple times, if not gripped.

or even...

Vaulting over the barriers (or following-through a valid ticket
holder)

>That's why, by default, it charges you if you exit the same station you've
>just entered.

The action it takes is collateral damage to the good guys, a frequent
occurrence when sledgehammers are used to catch the bad guys.
--
Roland Perry