Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5

The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
England; and bus services in London and around the country.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>
> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
> England; and bus services in London and around the country.

Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
new contracts.

Robin

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 12:07:12 -0000 (UTC), Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>
>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>
>Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>new contracts.

It's more than that.

There's increasing pressure on DB from its dissatisfied German customers to stop being distracted by its foreign
adventures, and return to being focused on doing a really good job at home. So, sooner or later, DB Cargo UK will also
be put up for sale. It simply has no synergy or strategic value to DB. Arguably, DB only bought EWS in the first place
to get access to that company's open access freight operations in France (SNCF had been much more focused on blocking
DBC than it had EWS, which it saw as a much lower threat).

Depending on who buys Arriva UK, it may or may not remain interested in bidding for new passenger service contracts from
GBR. For example, Transport UK Group may be at least as keen on fixture bids as Abellio was.

In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>
>>
>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>
>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>
>Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>new contracts.

It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.

Has anyone said "Arriva departs" yet. If not, maybe I will.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>
>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>
>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>> new contracts.
>
> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.

The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.

On 03/04/2023 13:40, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>
>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for
>>> London;
>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>
>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>> new contracts.
>
> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>
> Has anyone said "Arriva departs" yet. If not, maybe I will.

The next departure is an Arriva. See also: the second train is a First
train, the 12:30 One train, etc., etc.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>
>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>
>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>> new contracts.
>
> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>
> Has anyone said "Arriva departs" yet. If not, maybe I will.

Do it in Italian.
“Grazie e arrivederci.”

GH

In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>
>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>
>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>> new contracts.
>>
>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>
>The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.

But it says DB is.
--
Roland Perry

On 03/04/2023 13:07, Bob wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>
>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>
> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
> new contracts.
>
> Robin
>

And Arriva has been contracting parts of its UK bus operations.
Depots at Macclesfield, Winsford & Oswestry are to close in the next
month or so, and it apparently did not bid for any services in the
forthcoming Greater Manchester bus franchising scheme.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>
>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>> new contracts.
>>>
>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>
>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>
> But it says DB is.

No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
not selling off its UK operations.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>
>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>
>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>
>> But it says DB is.
>
> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
> not selling off its UK operations.

It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
sale.

Robin

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 07:33:15 -0000 (UTC), Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>>
>>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>>
>>> But it says DB is.
>>
>> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
>> not selling off its UK operations.
>
>It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
>they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
>sale.

You're letting Roland confuse you. DB plans to put the whole Arriva company up for sale. If it manages to pull it off
this time, then Arriva will be neither more nor less of a company than before; it'll just have different owners. This is
contrary to Roland's mistaken conclusion, "It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations."

For those who don't know, Arriva is quite a large multinational, operating across a dozen countries (it was 13, before
its recent sale of its Portuguese business), but notably not Germany (presumably for anti-monopoly reasons) Other stats:
1.2bn passenger journeys pa,
623 trains and trams,
14,135 buses
10 water buses.
39,000 employees.

I think one of the issues with DB's previous lack of enthusiasm for getting out of its foreign adventures was that the
state was going to take the proceeds. This time may be different, as DB has been told it can keep the proceeds, and
re-invest them in Germany railways.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 07:33:15 -0000 (UTC), Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>>>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>>>
>>>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>>>
>>>> But it says DB is.
>>>
>>> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
>>> not selling off its UK operations.
>>
>> It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
>> they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
>> sale.
>
> You're letting Roland confuse you. DB plans to put the whole Arriva
> company up for sale. If it manages to pull it off
> this time, then Arriva will be neither more nor less of a company than
> before; it'll just have different owners. This is
> contrary to Roland's mistaken conclusion, "It's certainly less of a
> company once it's sold its UK operations."

It doesn’t alter the fact that as a result of this sale, DB will no longer
be involved in UK passenger rail franchising. Had they wanted to stay in
that business, they could easily have separated out the TOC bits and
retained them while selling the rest. So the fact is DB will stop being
involved in UK TOC operations if they can find a buyer.

Robin

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 13:48:53 -0000 (UTC), Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 07:33:15 -0000 (UTC), Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport for London;
>>>>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it says DB is.
>>>>
>>>> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
>>>> not selling off its UK operations.
>>>
>>> It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
>>> they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
>>> sale.
>>
>> You're letting Roland confuse you. DB plans to put the whole Arriva
>> company up for sale. If it manages to pull it off
>> this time, then Arriva will be neither more nor less of a company than
>> before; it'll just have different owners. This is
>> contrary to Roland's mistaken conclusion, "It's certainly less of a
>> company once it's sold its UK operations."
>
>It doesn’t alter the fact that as a result of this sale, DB will no longer
>be involved in UK passenger rail franchising.

Nobody disputes that, but Roland seemed to think it was Arriva selling off its UK operations.

> Had they wanted to stay in
>that business, they could easily have separated out the TOC bits and
>retained them while selling the rest. So the fact is DB will stop being
>involved in UK TOC operations if they can find a buyer.

That's exactly what DB has been told to do. I wonder if Arriva may instead be floated, if no willing buyer can be found?
Could it become an independent UK company again, as it was till 2010? It's certainly large enough to return to the UK
stock market, but I don't know what the financial's are like.

In message <u0gjrr$3bhas$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:33:15 on Tue, 4 Apr
2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport
>>>>>>>for London;
>>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>>
>>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>>
>>> But it says DB is.
>>
>> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
>> not selling off its UK operations.
>
>It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
>they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
>sale.

And once sold, DB won't be a *greater* company (most might suggest).
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 15:07:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u0gjrr$3bhas$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:33:15 on Tue, 4 Apr
>2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport
>>>>>>>>for London;
>>>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>>>
>>>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>>>
>>>> But it says DB is.
>>>
>>> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
>>> not selling off its UK operations.
>>
>>It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
>>they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
>>sale.
>
>And once sold, DB won't be a *greater* company (most might suggest).

Actually, if DB is allowed to keep the proceeds and invest them in Germany, it probably will end up as a greater
company, in the eyes of its customers and owners. At least DB's management attention won't be diverted to irrelevant
rail and bus operations in 10 other countries.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 15:07:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <u0gjrr$3bhas$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:33:15 on Tue, 4 Apr
>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport
>>>>>>>>> for London;
>>>>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it says DB is.
>>>>
>>>> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
>>>> not selling off its UK operations.
>>>
>>> It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
>>> they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
>>> sale.
>>
>> And once sold, DB won't be a *greater* company (most might suggest).
>
> Actually, if DB is allowed to keep the proceeds and invest them in
> Germany, it probably will end up as a greater
> company, in the eyes of its customers and owners. At least DB's
> management attention won't be diverted to irrelevant
> rail and bus operations in 10 other countries.
>

I suspect all these overseas state owned companies thought they could a)
make a profit to prop up the domestic network, and b) gain greater glory
and remuneration for the higher ups. Doesn’t seem to have worked out that
way for most.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 15:07:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u0gjrr$3bhas$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:33:15 on Tue, 4 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport
>>>>>>>>>> for London;
>>>>>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it says DB is.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
>>>>> not selling off its UK operations.
>>>>
>>>> It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
>>>> they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
>>>> sale.
>>>
>>> And once sold, DB won't be a *greater* company (most might suggest).
>>
>> Actually, if DB is allowed to keep the proceeds and invest them in
>> Germany, it probably will end up as a greater
>> company, in the eyes of its customers and owners. At least DB's
>> management attention won't be diverted to irrelevant
>> rail and bus operations in 10 other countries.
>>
>
> I suspect all these overseas state owned companies thought they could a)
> make a profit to prop up the domestic network, and b) gain greater glory
> and remuneration for the higher ups. Doesn’t seem to have worked out that
> way for most.

Yup, that about sums it up. They probably thought these activities made
them international businessmen.

One thing that strikes me about Arriva is that it seeks to have had a very
active corporate development programme, regularly buying and selling
country operations. I don't suppose these activities make much money, but
they'd certainly have created lots of work for DB corporate.

As most of these operations are in the EU, the chances are that the company
will remain in EU ownership, either by sale to new EU owners, or floating
on an EU exchange.

On 04/04/2023 14:10, Recliner wrote:

> but notably not Germany (presumably for anti-monopoly reasons)

Brussels made DB sell Arriva's German activities to get approval for the
purchase of the rest of Arriva. It was sold to Italian state railways,
and is now called Netinera.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 04/04/2023 16:19, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 15:07:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u0gjrr$3bhas$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:33:15 on Tue, 4 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <u0emd7$306qi$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:04:23 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <u0efhg$2v798$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:12 on Mon, 3 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <no_email@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Arriva on track for sale by Deutsche Bahn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38dc52ca-d17b-11ed-b5c3-54651fc826e9
>>>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=1c7bc46bd238e06a674cf98d7dfca0d5
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The company runs CrossCountry and Chiltern train services for the
>>>>>>>>>> Department for Transport; the London Overground for Transport
>>>>>>>>>> for London;
>>>>>>>>>> its own Grand Central train operator between London and the north of
>>>>>>>>>> England; and bus services in London and around the country.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Looks like DB want out of UK rail franchises. One less company to bid on
>>>>>>>>> new contracts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's certainly less of a company once it's sold its UK operations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The story doesn't say Arriva is selling off its UK operations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it says DB is.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it says DB will be putting Arriva up for sale (for the second time),
>>>>> not selling off its UK operations.
>>>>
>>>> It’s UK passenger TOCs are part of what is being put up for sale. While
>>>> they are not being sold separately, they are part of the set of things for
>>>> sale.
>>>
>>> And once sold, DB won't be a *greater* company (most might suggest).
>>
>> Actually, if DB is allowed to keep the proceeds and invest them in
>> Germany, it probably will end up as a greater
>> company, in the eyes of its customers and owners. At least DB's
>> management attention won't be diverted to irrelevant
>> rail and bus operations in 10 other countries.
>>
>
> I suspect all these overseas state owned companies thought they could a)
> make a profit to prop up the domestic network, and b) gain greater glory
> and remuneration for the higher ups.

And get market share, so they don't get swallowed up and/or end up with
all their home market trains outsourced to some foreign private company.

A few years ago there was speculation that SNCF and DB might try to
parcel up the European passenger and freight markets between them.

--
Arthur Figgis