<https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
double-decker-26669426>

No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.

I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
> double-decker-26669426>
>
> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>
> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.

Interesting. I know the area well, or used to many years ago - we used to
pass the end of Barton Lane on the way to my grandparents’ for the weekend
every couple of weeks. I’ve also been over the bridge on the narrow boat
‘Francis”. There appears to be one of these on each side of the bridge -
looks like simple negligence on behalf of the driver.

<https://maps.app.goo.gl/yDt1TekbbkYMvPy96?g_st=ic>
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/TkUdXNrGs54Eudku7?g_st=ic>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 11/04/2023 10:16, Roland Perry wrote:
> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
> double-decker-26669426>
>
> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>
> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.

Sorry...
We can't find the page you requested

The file could not be found for a number of reasons such as the file
being moved or deleted. Please check your spelling and if you still
can't get to the right page try heading to the homepage for a look around.

If you still have problems, try contacting us and we'll do what we can
to help you. Click here to get back to where you came from.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 11/04/2023 10:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>> double-decker-26669426>
>>
>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>>
>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>
> Sorry...
> We can't find the page you requested
>
> The file could not be found for a number of reasons such as the file
> being moved or deleted. Please check your spelling and if you still
> can't get to the right page try heading to the homepage for a look around.
>
> If you still have problems, try contacting us and we'll do what we can
> to help you. Click here to get back to where you came from.

Works fine for me. Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back together
properly? Does this work?

<https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-double-decker-26669426>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 11/04/2023 12:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/04/2023 10:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>>> double-decker-26669426>
>>>
>>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>>>
>>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>>
>> Sorry...
>> We can't find the page you requested
>>
>> The file could not be found for a number of reasons such as the file
>> being moved or deleted. Please check your spelling and if you still
>> can't get to the right page try heading to the homepage for a look around.
>>
>> If you still have problems, try contacting us and we'll do what we can
>> to help you. Click here to get back to where you came from.
>
> Works fine for me. Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back together
> properly? Does this work?
>
> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-double-decker-26669426>
>
That works thank you.

In message <u139u6$2k09v$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>> double-decker-26669426>
>>
>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>>
>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>
>Interesting. I know the area well, or used to many years ago - we used to
>pass the end of Barton Lane on the way to my grandparents’ for the weekend
>every couple of weeks. I’ve also been over the bridge on the narrow boat
>‘Francis”.

Been over it a few times, also across the nearby Swing-Aqueduct, as well
as *along* the main ship canal in a narrowboat (don't try that at home).

>There appears to be one of these on each side of the bridge -
>looks like simple negligence on behalf of the driver.
>
><https://maps.app.goo.gl/yDt1TekbbkYMvPy96?g_st=ic>
><https://maps.app.goo.gl/TkUdXNrGs54Eudku7?g_st=ic>

Oh WELL DONE! That completely explodes the myth that newly installing
such things would prevent bashes at other places.

Maybe the driver had a "medical emergency", one of the top reasons why
apologists claim car drivers might have ended up in a ditch. 'Driving
too fast', oh dear me no.

--
Roland Perry

In message <u13gpi$2kjut$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/04/2023 10:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>>> double-decker-26669426>
>>>
>>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>>>
>>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>>
>> Sorry...
>> We can't find the page you requested
>>
>> The file could not be found for a number of reasons such as the file
>> being moved or deleted. Please check your spelling and if you still
>> can't get to the right page try heading to the homepage for a look around.
>>
>> If you still have problems, try contacting us and we'll do what we can
>> to help you. Click here to get back to where you came from.
>
>Works fine for me. Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back together

No need, it wasn't split.

>properly? Does this work?
>
><https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-double
>-decker-26669426>

--
Roland Perry

In message <u13g7q$2kiao$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:27:53 on Tue, 11 Apr
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>On 11/04/2023 10:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>> double-decker-26669426>
>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>
>Sorry...
>We can't find the page you requested

I feel sorry for your extremely broken newsreader. I have done
everything I possibly could to give it some clue.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u13gpi$2kjut$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
> >
> >Works fine for me. Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back together
>
> No need, it wasn't split.

All together now boys and girls... Oh Yes It Was:

000002c0 34 39 31 39 35 37 0a 0a 20 3c 68 74 74 70 73 3a |491957.. <https:|
000002d0 2f 2f 77 77 77 2e 6c 61 6e 63 73 2e 6c 69 76 65 |//www.lancs.live|
000002e0 2f 6e 65 77 73 2f 75 6b 2d 77 6f 72 6c 64 2d 6e |/news/uk-world-n|
000002f0 65 77 73 2f 64 72 61 6d 61 74 69 63 2d 70 69 63 |ews/dramatic-pic|
00000300 74 75 72 65 73 2d 73 68 6f 77 2d 0a 64 6f 75 62 |tures-show-.doub|
00000310 6c 65 2d 64 65 63 6b 65 72 2d 32 36 36 36 39 34 |le-decker-266694|
00000320 32 36 3e 0a 0a 4e 6f 20 70 61 78 20 61 62 6f 61 |26>..No pax aboa|

There's a linefeed in the middle of the URL, which is what causes the
troubles.

Theo

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u139u6$2k09v$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>>> double-decker-26669426>
>>>
>>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>>>
>>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>>
>> Interesting. I know the area well, or used to many years ago - we used to
>> pass the end of Barton Lane on the way to my grandparents’ for the weekend
>> every couple of weeks. I’ve also been over the bridge on the narrow boat
>> ‘Francis”.
>
> Been over it a few times, also across the nearby Swing-Aqueduct, as well
> as *along* the main ship canal in a narrowboat (don't try that at home).

Ditto for the swing aqueduct, once in each direction; it would be difficult
to cross the Barton Lane bridge and not cross the aqueduct.

I’ve been around Salford Docks in a tour boat - that would have been in the
mid-60s - and crossed the Ship Canal in a decommissioned ship’s lifeboad -
Procter and Gamble used to have a car park on the north bank and run a
shuttle - but I’ve never had occasion to cruise on it. You’ve mentioned
that exploit before and I’m envious.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Same here. I’m not saying Roland’s newsreader was doing anything wrong -
> there’s no obvious reason a newsreader shouldn’t be able to put the URL
> back together, especially with the <> cues - but clearly some newsreaders
> prefer not to.

I think the problem is with software which isn't designed as a newsreader.
eg Martin is using Thunderbird, which is mostly a mail client. I'm using a
remote news client via SSH and the thing that understands URLs on my local
end is Konsole, gnome-terminal or iTerm2.

By the time the output is parsed for URLs the code doing the parsing doesn't
know that the output came from Usenet, or what Usenet's peculiarities are.
It's just hunting for things that look like URLs in arbitrary text, and
conventions like <..> or <URL:..> delimiters don't generally exist there.
In plain text, line breaks terminate URLs.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Same here. I’m not saying Roland’s newsreader was doing anything wrong -
>> there’s no obvious reason a newsreader shouldn’t be able to put the URL
>> back together, especially with the <> cues - but clearly some newsreaders
>> prefer not to.
>
> I think the problem is with software which isn't designed as a newsreader.
> eg Martin is using Thunderbird, which is mostly a mail client. I'm using a
> remote news client via SSH and the thing that understands URLs on my local
> end is Konsole, gnome-terminal or iTerm2.
>
> By the time the output is parsed for URLs the code doing the parsing doesn't
> know that the output came from Usenet, or what Usenet's peculiarities are.
> It's just hunting for things that look like URLs in arbitrary text, and
> conventions like <..> or <URL:..> delimiters don't generally exist there.
> In plain text, line breaks terminate URLs.

I beg to differ. RFC 3986, appendix C:

“For robustness, software that accepts user-typed URI should attempt to
recognize and strip both delimiters and embedded whitespace.”

<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <Jcq*D3vdz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:06:31 on Tue,
11 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u13gpi$2kjut$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> >
>> >Works fine for me. Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back together
>>
>> No need, it wasn't split.
>
>All together now boys and girls... Oh Yes It Was:
>
>000002c0 34 39 31 39 35 37 0a 0a 20 3c 68 74 74 70 73 3a |491957.. <https:|
>000002d0 2f 2f 77 77 77 2e 6c 61 6e 63 73 2e 6c 69 76 65 |//www.lancs.live|
>000002e0 2f 6e 65 77 73 2f 75 6b 2d 77 6f 72 6c 64 2d 6e |/news/uk-world-n|
>000002f0 65 77 73 2f 64 72 61 6d 61 74 69 63 2d 70 69 63 |ews/dramatic-pic|
>00000300 74 75 72 65 73 2d 73 68 6f 77 2d 0a 64 6f 75 62 |tures-show-.doub|
>00000310 6c 65 2d 64 65 63 6b 65 72 2d 32 36 36 36 39 34 |le-decker-266694|
>00000320 32 36 3e 0a 0a 4e 6f 20 70 61 78 20 61 62 6f 61 |26>..No pax aboa|
>
>There's a linefeed in the middle of the URL, which is what causes the
>troubles.

A linefeed is white space, and <oh do we really have to repeat this
discussion several times a year> doesn't count as a split in an embedded
url.

Doubly so when the url is enclosed in delimiters.
--
Roland Perry

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u13gpi$2kjut$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>> Works fine for me. Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back together
>>
>> No need, it wasn't split.
>
> All together now boys and girls... Oh Yes It Was:
>
> 000002c0 34 39 31 39 35 37 0a 0a 20 3c 68 74 74 70 73 3a |491957.. <https:|
> 000002d0 2f 2f 77 77 77 2e 6c 61 6e 63 73 2e 6c 69 76 65 |//www.lancs.live|
> 000002e0 2f 6e 65 77 73 2f 75 6b 2d 77 6f 72 6c 64 2d 6e |/news/uk-world-n|
> 000002f0 65 77 73 2f 64 72 61 6d 61 74 69 63 2d 70 69 63 |ews/dramatic-pic|
> 00000300 74 75 72 65 73 2d 73 68 6f 77 2d 0a 64 6f 75 62 |tures-show-.doub|
> 00000310 6c 65 2d 64 65 63 6b 65 72 2d 32 36 36 36 39 34 |le-decker-266694|
> 00000320 32 36 3e 0a 0a 4e 6f 20 70 61 78 20 61 62 6f 61 |26>..No pax aboa|
>
> There's a linefeed in the middle of the URL, which is what causes the
> troubles.

Same here. I’m not saying Roland’s newsreader was doing anything wrong -
there’s no obvious reason a newsreader shouldn’t be able to put the URL
back together, especially with the <> cues - but clearly some newsreaders
prefer not to.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 13:31:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <u13gpi$2kjut$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
>2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 11/04/2023 10:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>>>> double-decker-26669426>
>>>>
>>>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>>>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>>>>
>>>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>>>
>>> Sorry...
>>> We can't find the page you requested
>>>
>>> The file could not be found for a number of reasons such as the file
>>> being moved or deleted. Please check your spelling and if you still
>>> can't get to the right page try heading to the homepage for a look around.
>>>
>>> If you still have problems, try contacting us and we'll do what we can
>>> to help you. Click here to get back to where you came from.
>>
>>Works fine for me. Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back together
>
>No need, it wasn't split.

Agreed... on this occasion, your link worked for me without doctoring.

In message <u13vmk$2ls0j$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:48 on Tue, 11 Apr
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u139u6$2k09v$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>>>> double-decker-26669426>
>>>>
>>>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>>>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>>>>
>>>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>>>
>>> Interesting. I know the area well, or used to many years ago - we used to
>>> pass the end of Barton Lane on the way to my grandparents’ for the weekend
>>> every couple of weeks. I’ve also been over the bridge on the narrow boat
>>> ‘Francis”.
>>
>> Been over it a few times, also across the nearby Swing-Aqueduct, as well
>> as *along* the main ship canal in a narrowboat (don't try that at home).
>
>Ditto for the swing aqueduct, once in each direction; it would be difficult
>to cross the Barton Lane bridge and not cross the aqueduct.
>
>I’ve been around Salford Docks in a tour boat - that would have been in the
>mid-60s - and crossed the Ship Canal in a decommissioned ship’s lifeboad -
>Procter and Gamble used to have a car park on the north bank and run a
>shuttle - but I’ve never had occasion to cruise on it. You’ve mentioned
>that exploit before and I’m envious.

Lots of photos, of what was a long trip; these two the most relevant:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/June-75-Ship_Canal.jpg (Stanlow Point)

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/June-75-Barton.jpg

And the other way on Streetview, canal bridge swung:
https://goo.gl/maps/bYCrFoF7BkZAZeABA
--
Roland Perry

Am 11.04.2023 um 17:26 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <Jcq*D3vdz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:06:31 on Tue,
> 11 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u13gpi$2kjut$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> >
>>> >Works fine for me.  Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back
>>> together
>>>
>>> No need, it wasn't split.
>>
>> All together now boys and girls... Oh Yes It Was:
>>
>> 000002c0  34 39 31 39 35 37 0a 0a  20 3c 68 74 74 70 73 3a  |491957..
>> <https:|
>> 000002d0  2f 2f 77 77 77 2e 6c 61  6e 63 73 2e 6c 69 76 65
>> |//www.lancs.live|
>> 000002e0  2f 6e 65 77 73 2f 75 6b  2d 77 6f 72 6c 64 2d 6e
>> |/news/uk-world-n|
>> 000002f0  65 77 73 2f 64 72 61 6d  61 74 69 63 2d 70 69 63
>> |ews/dramatic-pic|
>> 00000300  74 75 72 65 73 2d 73 68  6f 77 2d 0a 64 6f 75 62
>> |tures-show-.doub|
>> 00000310  6c 65 2d 64 65 63 6b 65  72 2d 32 36 36 36 39 34
>> |le-decker-266694|
>> 00000320  32 36 3e 0a 0a 4e 6f 20  70 61 78 20 61 62 6f 61  |26>..No
>> pax aboa|
>>
>> There's a linefeed in the middle of the URL, which is what causes the
>> troubles.
>
> A linefeed is white space, and <oh do we really have to repeat this
> discussion several times a year> doesn't count as a split in an embedded
> url.
>
> Doubly so when the url is enclosed in delimiters.

I believe we have agreed repeatedly that the URL works for most people
in the original article but that many newsreaders break this when
quoting the URL.

Rolf

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u139u6$2k09v$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> <https://www.lancs.live/news/uk-world-news/dramatic-pictures-show-
>>>> double-decker-26669426>
>>>>
>>>> No pax aboard, so it probably the usual ECS-shortcut gone wrong.
>>>> Upstairs has chairs, not seats, it seems.
>>>>
>>>> I like trains which have chairs rather than seats, very luxurious.
>>>
>>> Interesting. I know the area well, or used to many years ago - we used to
>>> pass the end of Barton Lane on the way to my grandparents’ for the weekend
>>> every couple of weeks. I’ve also been over the bridge on the narrow boat
>>> ‘Francis”.
>>
>> Been over it a few times, also across the nearby Swing-Aqueduct, as well
>> as *along* the main ship canal in a narrowboat (don't try that at home).
>
> Ditto for the swing aqueduct, once in each direction; it would be difficult
> to cross the Barton Lane bridge and not cross the aqueduct.
>
> I’ve been around Salford Docks in a tour boat - that would have been in the
> mid-60s - and crossed the Ship Canal in a decommissioned ship’s lifeboad -
> Procter and Gamble used to have a car park on the north bank and run a
> shuttle - but I’ve never had occasion to cruise on it. You’ve mentioned
> that exploit before and I’m envious.
>
> Sam
>

I was going to recommend that taking one of the trips from Liverpool
/Birkenhead to Salford or the other way operated by one of the Mersey
Ferries as an interesting day out, but I see they only do a shorter trip
now as far as Latchford Locks and return which misses much of the
interesting bits.
Shame, they used to offer the full length with return to origin by bus .
The ferry ran to Salford and spent the night there and then offered a
cruise back down for people from that end, I assume that
the passenger numbers going that way must have been too low to make it
viable*.
For years the missus when in company of friends who were getting a bit
gushing over their latest trip around the Med would stall the conversation
with “He took me on a surprise cruise and it turned out to be a trip on
the MSC”. In truth she likes interesting industrial things as much me and
enjoyed it.
I don’t think either of us are attracted to the idea of an actual cruise in
the company of several thousand others although we did enjoy a crossing
from Soton to NewYork on the QM2 as a means to get there a little
differently, but that isn’t a cruise though a bit snobbish to say the
clientele from both sides of the pond more interesting to hold conversation
with than someone doing a Butlins at sea.
Returning to the MSC trip I hadn’t considered till the onboard commentator
pointed it out was the amount of alterations to railways the canal
construction required where to cross on bridges high enough to pass
shipping lines at a couple of points had to have long new embankments
constructed
each side to gain height. In a couple of places the older level route
survived as a short stub branch
to serve freight customers.

* For several years I wanted to take the ride along the Exeter Ship Canal
by an Exmouth firm about once a month in Season but it was always sold out
on the online site, then it occurred to me that the boat must return so I
rang up and asked. Turned out the Exmouth -Exeter run was very popular with
coach tours hence the lack of spaces, but due to an over sight the return
in the afternoon was not on
or very well hidden on the website. They have since rectified that.
<https://www.stuartlinecruises.co.uk/exeter-canal-cruise/>
If you are in the area its a nice run ,though obviously not as long as the
MSC it is a rare chance to travel a different Waterway which is one of the
oldest in the country.

GH

In message <u15qib$2v9rp$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:26 on Wed, 12 Apr
2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 11.04.2023 um 17:26 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <Jcq*D3vdz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:06:31 on
>>Tue, 11 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u13gpi$2kjut$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:22 on Tue, 11 Apr
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> >
>>>> >Works fine for me.  Does your newsreader glue Roland’s URL back
>>>> together
>>>>
>>>> No need, it wasn't split.
>>>
>>> All together now boys and girls... Oh Yes It Was:
>>>
>>> 000002c0  34 39 31 39 35 37 0a 0a  20 3c 68 74 74 70 73 3a 
>>>|491957.. <https:|
>>> 000002d0  2f 2f 77 77 77 2e 6c 61  6e 63 73 2e 6c 69 76 65
>>> |//www.lancs.live|
>>> 000002e0  2f 6e 65 77 73 2f 75 6b  2d 77 6f 72 6c 64 2d 6e
>>> |/news/uk-world-n|
>>> 000002f0  65 77 73 2f 64 72 61 6d  61 74 69 63 2d 70 69 63
>>> |ews/dramatic-pic|
>>> 00000300  74 75 72 65 73 2d 73 68  6f 77 2d 0a 64 6f 75 62
>>> |tures-show-.doub|
>>> 00000310  6c 65 2d 64 65 63 6b 65  72 2d 32 36 36 36 39 34
>>> |le-decker-266694|
>>> 00000320  32 36 3e 0a 0a 4e 6f 20  70 61 78 20 61 62 6f 61 
>>>|26>..No pax aboa|
>>>
>>> There's a linefeed in the middle of the URL, which is what causes the
>>> troubles.

>> A linefeed is white space, and <oh do we really have to repeat this
>>discussion several times a year> doesn't count as a split in an
>>embedded url.

>> Doubly so when the url is enclosed in delimiters.
>
>I believe we have agreed repeatedly that the URL works for most people
>in the original article but that many newsreaders break this when
>quoting the URL.

Are you saying the angle-bracket delimiters confuse them?
--
Roland Perry

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Same here. I’m not saying Roland’s newsreader was doing anything wrong -
> >> there’s no obvious reason a newsreader shouldn’t be able to put the URL
> >> back together, especially with the <> cues - but clearly some newsreaders
> >> prefer not to.
> >
> > I think the problem is with software which isn't designed as a newsreader.
> > eg Martin is using Thunderbird, which is mostly a mail client. I'm using a
> > remote news client via SSH and the thing that understands URLs on my local
> > end is Konsole, gnome-terminal or iTerm2.
> >
> > By the time the output is parsed for URLs the code doing the parsing doesn't
> > know that the output came from Usenet, or what Usenet's peculiarities are.
> > It's just hunting for things that look like URLs in arbitrary text, and
> > conventions like <..> or <URL:..> delimiters don't generally exist there.
> > In plain text, line breaks terminate URLs.
>
> I beg to differ. RFC 3986, appendix C:
>
> “For robustness, software that accepts user-typed URI should attempt to
> recognize and strip both delimiters and embedded whitespace.”
>
> <https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>

That may be so, but it's not uncommon to see things like this:

"As you can see from
https://example.com/
the tachyon modulation
was *not* wrongly
polarised"

(narrow column here for demonstration)

and that URL by those rules would be https://example.com/the

So in practice you have to terminate URLs at linefeeds, because otherwise
you're going to run into problems anytime somebody doesn't put a double LF
after their URL.

In general text (eg .txt, plaintext emails, source code), people almost
never use angle brackets to deliminate URLs, much as standards writers may
wish them to. Clients have to deal with that reality.

Theo

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u15qib$2v9rp$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:26 on Wed, 12 Apr
> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
> >I believe we have agreed repeatedly that the URL works for most people
> >in the original article but that many newsreaders break this when
> >quoting the URL.
>
> Are you saying the angle-bracket delimiters confuse them?

Two problems. One is the trailing angle bracket may get picked up as part
of the URL, ie:

<https://example.com/> opens https://example.com/> when clicked

(which is arguably incorrect)

The other is that split URLs get quoted, ie:

He said:
> She said:
> > <https://example.
> > com/>

and the quoting disrupts the URL parsing. eg in Konsole that link becomes
just https://example

While it might be fair to berate newsreaders for not continuing URLs over
line breaks, I'm not sure that URLs get special treatment when handling
quoting.

Theo

In message <Jcq*JfAdz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:18:55 on Wed,
12 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> > Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> Same here. I’m not saying Roland’s newsreader was doing
>> >>anything wrong -
>> >> there’s no obvious reason a newsreader shouldn’t be able to
>> >>put the URL
>> >> back together, especially with the <> cues - but clearly some newsreaders
>> >> prefer not to.
>> >
>> > I think the problem is with software which isn't designed as a newsreader.
>> > eg Martin is using Thunderbird, which is mostly a mail client. I'm using a
>> > remote news client via SSH and the thing that understands URLs on my local
>> > end is Konsole, gnome-terminal or iTerm2.
>> >
>> > By the time the output is parsed for URLs the code doing the
>> >parsing doesn't
>> > know that the output came from Usenet, or what Usenet's peculiarities are.
>> > It's just hunting for things that look like URLs in arbitrary text, and
>> > conventions like <..> or <URL:..> delimiters don't generally exist there.
>> > In plain text, line breaks terminate URLs.
>>
>> I beg to differ. RFC 3986, appendix C:
>>
>> “For robustness, software that accepts user-typed URI should attempt to
>> recognize and strip both delimiters and embedded whitespace.”
>>
>> <https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3986#appendix-C>
>
>That may be so, but it's not uncommon to see things like this:

{Author quoting removed for clarity}

"As you can see from
https://example.com/
the tachyon modulation
was *not* wrongly
polarised"

>(narrow column here for demonstration)
>
>and that URL by those rules would be https://example.com/the

You've misunderstood the rule. The simplest way to delimit URIs is by
white space alone, and the wrapper at the start there is a newline
[before the https] so the ending wrapper is the next newline.

>So in practice you have to terminate URLs at linefeeds, because otherwise
>you're going to run into problems anytime somebody doesn't put a double LF
>after their URL.
>
>In general text (eg .txt, plaintext emails, source code), people almost
>never use angle brackets to deliminate URLs,

This is Usenet. Usenet clients ought to be aware of that!

>much as standards writers may
>wish them to. Clients have to deal with that reality.

That's an argument for being even more liberal in what you accept, not
for failing to parse delimiters properly at all.
--
Roland Perry

In message <Gcq*qdAdz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:09:04 on Wed,
12 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u15qib$2v9rp$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:26 on Wed, 12 Apr
>> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> >I believe we have agreed repeatedly that the URL works for most people
>> >in the original article but that many newsreaders break this when
>> >quoting the URL.
>>
>> Are you saying the angle-bracket delimiters confuse them?
>
>Two problems. One is the trailing angle bracket may get picked up as part
>of the URL, ie:
>
><https://example.com/> opens https://example.com/> when clicked
>
>(which is arguably incorrect)

Here, the close-delimiter is correctly identified.

>The other is that split URLs get quoted, ie:
>
>He said:
>> She said:
>> > <https://example." rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://example.
>> > com/>
>
>and the quoting disrupts the URL parsing. eg in Konsole that link becomes
>just https://example

The {Newline >> >} after {example.} isn't white space.

>While it might be fair to berate newsreaders for not continuing URLs over
>line breaks, I'm not sure that URLs get special treatment when handling
>quoting.

What do you mean by "quoting". The *delimiters* in the original posting,
or later-added ">",">>" etc at the start of lines?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <Gcq*qdAdz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:09:04 on Wed,
> 12 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
> >
> >Two problems. One is the trailing angle bracket may get picked up as part
> >of the URL, ie:
> >
> ><https://example.com/> opens https://example.com/> when clicked
> >
> >(which is arguably incorrect)
>
> Here, the close-delimiter is correctly identified.

That's what Konsole here does too. I don't remember the exact circumstances
it happens.

> >The other is that split URLs get quoted, ie:
> >
> >He said:
> >> She said:
> >> > <https://example." rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://example.
> >> > com/>
> >
> >and the quoting disrupts the URL parsing. eg in Konsole that link becomes
> >just https://example
>
> The {Newline >> >} after {example.} isn't white space.

Indeed, and so the wrapped URL is terminated.

> >While it might be fair to berate newsreaders for not continuing URLs over
> >line breaks, I'm not sure that URLs get special treatment when handling
> >quoting.
>
> What do you mean by "quoting". The *delimiters* in the original posting,
> or later-added ">",">>" etc at the start of lines?

The latter. The common quoting algorithm seems to naively prefix every line
with "> ", irrespective of whether that line has a URL. It effectively
terminates-short that URL, so that somebody clicking that URL gets only the
first part.

Theo

In message <Jcq*j8Adz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 15:11:51 on Wed,
12 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <Gcq*qdAdz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:09:04 on Wed,
>> 12 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> >
>> >Two problems. One is the trailing angle bracket may get picked up as part
>> >of the URL, ie:
>> >
>> ><https://example." rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://example.com/ " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://example.com/> opens https://example.com/> when clicked
>> >
>> >(which is arguably incorrect)
>>
>> Here, the close-delimiter is correctly identified.
>
>That's what Konsole here does too. I don't remember the exact circumstances
>it happens.
>
>> >The other is that split URLs get quoted, ie:
>> >
>> >He said:
>> >> She said:
>> >> > <https://example.
>> >> > com/>
>> >
>> >and the quoting disrupts the URL parsing. eg in Konsole that link becomes
>> >just https://example
>>
>> The {Newline >> >} after {example.} isn't white space.
>
>Indeed, and so the wrapped URL is terminated.
>
>> >While it might be fair to berate newsreaders for not continuing URLs over
>> >line breaks, I'm not sure that URLs get special treatment when handling
>> >quoting.
>>
>> What do you mean by "quoting". The *delimiters* in the original posting,
>> or later-added ">",">>" etc at the start of lines?
>
>The latter. The common quoting algorithm seems to naively prefix every line
>with "> ", irrespective of whether that line has a URL. It effectively
>terminates-short that URL, so that somebody clicking that URL gets only the
>first part.

That's user-error, they should only expect to be clicking on a wrapped
url in the original posting, not a follow-up to it.
--
Roland Perry