I came across this picture:
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118

The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
right?

It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
DMU or EMU that I can think of. Was there ever something like a Mk1 DBSO?

Thanks
Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> I came across this picture:
> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118
>
> The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
> right?
>
> It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
> DMU or EMU that I can think of. Was there ever something like a Mk1 DBSO?

The body profile seems more Mk2-ish - check out the tumblehome - but I
don’t recognise it either.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> I came across this picture:
>> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118
>>
>> The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
>> right?
>>
>> It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
>> DMU or EMU that I can think of. Was there ever something like a Mk1 DBSO?
>
> The body profile seems more Mk2-ish - check out the tumblehome - but I
> don’t recognise it either.
>
> Sam
>

Well that gave something to do this evening which lead to me learning about
the chequered preservation history of County School Station which appears
to have had track lifted twice
amongst various shady shenagins during presrvation attenpts.

I found this comment on the present Mid Norfolk Wiki entry.

Mid-Norfolk Railway Society and Great Eastern Railway (1989) Ltd.[edit]

Derelict remains of Dereham station in 1990.

The first MNR train to Yaxham, December 1994

County School in 1996, before restoration by the MNRPT.
In response to the approaching closure of the entire branch between
Wymondham, Dereham and North Elmham, the Great Eastern Railway (1989)
Limited formed to save the line. The F&DRS backed this scheme, and signed
its lease of County School station over to the company. The society,
renamed the Mid-Norfolk Railway Society in 1990,[29] continued to provide
financial backing and manpower for the development of the County School
site. The running line was extended over 1⁄2 mile (0.80 km) towards North
Elmham, and a collection of rolling stock was built up. The first passenger
train, a Mk2 brake coach converted to work as a DBSO with an industrial
diesel locomotive, operated at the County School site on 2 November 1991.

On reading the full entry it looks like it was probably scrapped When GER
(1989) was evicted from the site.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> site. The running line was extended over 1⁄2 mile (0.80 km) towards North
> Elmham, and a collection of rolling stock was built up. The first passenger
> train, a Mk2 brake coach converted to work as a DBSO with an industrial
> diesel locomotive, operated at the County School site on 2 November 1991.

It doesn't look like an actual DBSO (Glasgow-Edinburgh, etc - think they
were in use to Norwich by that point), so is it some kind of departmental
lashup or a custom preservation job?

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> I came across this picture:
> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118
>
> The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
> right?
>
> It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
> DMU or EMU that I can think of.
>

It looks like a Mk2 to me, and as it's in the preservation era, probably a
home-made driving (or at least brake control) vehicle. Steamport Southport
had something similar.

BR's research department also had a history of making their own unusual
driving vehicles.

> Was there ever something like a Mk1 DBSO?
>

Driving vehicles using (or almost using) normal Mk1 carriage ends include
Class 302 and 307, and the Rail Express Systems PCV (Propelling Control
Vehicle). But this isn't any of those.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 06:58:17 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> I came across this picture:
>> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118
>>
>> The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
>> right?
>>
>> It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
>> DMU or EMU that I can think of.
>>
>
>It looks like a Mk2 to me, and as it's in the preservation era, probably a
>home-made driving (or at least brake control) vehicle. Steamport Southport
>had something similar.

So did Peak Rail when it was just Buxrion Steam Centre - it provided
rides on a couple of hunfred yards of track and it didn't actually
control the locomotive so it wasn't really a control trailer, there
was a bloke with a walkie-talkie telling the foorplate crew what to
do.

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 02:31:44 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 06:58:17 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> I came across this picture:
>>> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118
>>>
>>> The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
>>> right?
>>>
>>> It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
>>> DMU or EMU that I can think of.
>>>
>>
>>It looks like a Mk2 to me, and as it's in the preservation era, probably a
>>home-made driving (or at least brake control) vehicle. Steamport Southport
>>had something similar.
>
>So did Peak Rail when it was just Buxrion Steam Centre - it provided
>rides on a couple of hunfred yards of track and it didn't actually
>control the locomotive so it wasn't really a control trailer, there
>was a bloke with a walkie-talkie telling the foorplate crew what to
>do.

Oops... Buxton - I'm a lousy typist and my aging eyes see what they
expect when I re-read it before sending it.

Two finger slips.

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> site. The running line was extended over 1⁄2 mile (0.80 km) towards North
>> Elmham, and a collection of rolling stock was built up. The first passenger
>> train, a Mk2 brake coach converted to work as a DBSO with an industrial
>> diesel locomotive, operated at the County School site on 2 November 1991.
>
> It doesn't look like an actual DBSO (Glasgow-Edinburgh, etc - think they
> were in use to Norwich by that point), so is it some kind of departmental
> lashup or a custom preservation job?
>
> Theo
>

I took the description to be a custom preservation job and would not be
surprised if it was no more technical than an observation window from
where someone communicated to the driver on the Loco
either by walkie talkie or a phone line connection , Hopefully the observer
had access to a brake valve
so they could apply the brake.

The whole operation of the GER(1989) seemed a bit haphazard with big
impractical dreams but little substance.

Hang on a mo , Found it on the wiki page about the Fakenham and Dereham
Railway Society who were the founders of the venture.

BR Mk2a No 9393. BSO.
I don’t think that is a genuine DBSO number so leads more to something
converted locally

It seems it ended up on the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway and I did find a
photo of it there but difficult to link to.

A recent You tube indicates they have either transferred the end door to
another Mk2 which isn’t a brake or they have two of them.

<https://youtu.be/YJyG965mbQQ>

There is also this interior shot of controls of one of them.

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/lestiverton/47967393396/in/photostream/>

But my knowledge of coaching stock is not enough to say if that is a
conversion or original controls for a DBSO or even if all the numbers are
correct.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> I came across this picture:
>>> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118
>>>
>>> The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
>>> right?
>>>
>>> It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
>>> DMU or EMU that I can think of. Was there ever something like a Mk1 DBSO?
>>
>> The body profile seems more Mk2-ish - check out the tumblehome - but I
>> don’t recognise it either.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> Well that gave something to do this evening which lead to me learning about
> the chequered preservation history of County School Station which appears
> to have had track lifted twice
> amongst various shady shenagins during presrvation attenpts.
>
> I found this comment on the present Mid Norfolk Wiki entry.
>
> Mid-Norfolk Railway Society and Great Eastern Railway (1989) Ltd.[edit]
>
> Derelict remains of Dereham station in 1990.
>
> The first MNR train to Yaxham, December 1994
>
> County School in 1996, before restoration by the MNRPT.
> In response to the approaching closure of the entire branch between
> Wymondham, Dereham and North Elmham, the Great Eastern Railway (1989)
> Limited formed to save the line. The F&DRS backed this scheme, and signed
> its lease of County School station over to the company. The society,
> renamed the Mid-Norfolk Railway Society in 1990,[29] continued to provide
> financial backing and manpower for the development of the County School
> site. The running line was extended over 1⁄2 mile (0.80 km) towards North
> Elmham, and a collection of rolling stock was built up. The first passenger
> train, a Mk2 brake coach converted to work as a DBSO with an industrial
> diesel locomotive, operated at the County School site on 2 November 1991.
>
> On reading the full entry it looks like it was probably scrapped When GER
> (1989) was evicted from the site.
>
> GH
>

Well it looks like I was wrong on that.

Another you tube link taken much further back than the last which I think
must be the vehicle concerned on the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway.

<https://youtu.be/xZtRZ5_HSEs>

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> site. The running line was extended over 1⁄2 mile (0.80 km) towards North
>>> Elmham, and a collection of rolling stock was built up. The first passenger
>>> train, a Mk2 brake coach converted to work as a DBSO with an industrial
>>> diesel locomotive, operated at the County School site on 2 November 1991.
>>
>> It doesn't look like an actual DBSO (Glasgow-Edinburgh, etc - think they
>> were in use to Norwich by that point), so is it some kind of departmental
>> lashup or a custom preservation job?
>>
>> Theo
>>
>
> I took the description to be a custom preservation job and would not be
> surprised if it was no more technical than an observation window from
> where someone communicated to the driver on the Loco
> either by walkie talkie or a phone line connection , Hopefully the observer
> had access to a brake valve
> so they could apply the brake.
>
> The whole operation of the GER(1989) seemed a bit haphazard with big
> impractical dreams but little substance.
>
> Hang on a mo , Found it on the wiki page about the Fakenham and Dereham
> Railway Society who were the founders of the venture.
>
> BR Mk2a No 9393. BSO.
> I don’t think that is a genuine DBSO number so leads more to something
> converted locally
>
> It seems it ended up on the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway and I did find a
> photo of it there but difficult to link to.
>
> A recent You tube indicates they have either transferred the end door to
> another Mk2 which isn’t a brake or they have two of them.
>
>
> <https://youtu.be/YJyG965mbQQ>
>
> There is also this interior shot of controls of one of them.
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/lestiverton/47967393396/in/photostream/>
>
> But my knowledge of coaching stock is not enough to say if that is a
> conversion or original controls for a DBSO or even if all the numbers are
> correct.

If the controls are attached to the door fitting and it could be moved
between vehicles then maybe all you’d need would be a walkie talkie and a
connection to the brake pipe and you could could put it on any coach that
you needed to.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> The whole operation of the GER(1989) seemed a bit haphazard with big
> impractical dreams but little substance.
>
> Hang on a mo , Found it on the wiki page about the Fakenham and Dereham
> Railway Society who were the founders of the venture.
>
> BR Mk2a No 9393. BSO.
> I don’t think that is a genuine DBSO number so leads more to something
> converted locally
>
> It seems it ended up on the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway and I did find a
> photo of it there but difficult to link to.
>
> A recent You tube indicates they have either transferred the end door to
> another Mk2 which isn’t a brake or they have two of them.

Thanks, looks like this is the one:
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1551

Interestingly mention of Lenwade suggest's it's one of the coaches 'stolen'
from County School during the preservationist wars.

> <https://youtu.be/YJyG965mbQQ>

That appears to be Mk2 TSO 5161:
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4406

> There is also this interior shot of controls of one of them.
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/lestiverton/47967393396/in/photostream/>
>
> But my knowledge of coaching stock is not enough to say if that is a
> conversion or original controls for a DBSO or even if all the numbers are
> correct.

I'm guessing the setup is effectively a 'driving door' that's fitted to the
corridor connection, but the rest of the Mk2 is left fairly unchanged.
There doesn't appear to be much of a driving desk, so I imagine it's merely
relaying to the loco.

Theo

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 03:27:24 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 02:31:44 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
><c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 06:58:17 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> I came across this picture:
>>>> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118
>>>>
>>>> The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
>>>> right?
>>>>
>>>> It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
>>>> DMU or EMU that I can think of.
>>>>
>>>
>>>It looks like a Mk2 to me, and as it's in the preservation era, probably a
>>>home-made driving (or at least brake control) vehicle. Steamport Southport
>>>had something similar.
>>
>>So did Peak Rail when it was just Buxrion Steam Centre - it provided
>>rides on a couple of hunfred yards of track and it didn't actually
>>control the locomotive so it wasn't really a control trailer, there
>>was a bloke with a walkie-talkie telling the foorplate crew what to
>>do.
>
>
>Oops... Buxton - I'm a lousy typist and my aging eyes see what they
>expect when I re-read it before sending it.
>
>Two finger slips.
>
There is/was a similar vehicle (window cut out at the end and a brake
valve within reach) at Quainton Road. No radio involved AFAIAA.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 03:27:24 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
> <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 02:31:44 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
>> <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 06:58:17 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> I came across this picture:
>>>>> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/120118
>>>>>
>>>>> The train on the left is a DMU of some kind, but what is the vehicle on the
>>>>> right?
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks like it's set up to be a driving vehicle, but it doesn't match any
>>>>> DMU or EMU that I can think of.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It looks like a Mk2 to me, and as it's in the preservation era, probably a
>>>> home-made driving (or at least brake control) vehicle. Steamport Southport
>>>> had something similar.
>>>
>>> So did Peak Rail when it was just Buxrion Steam Centre - it provided
>>> rides on a couple of hunfred yards of track and it didn't actually
>>> control the locomotive so it wasn't really a control trailer, there
>>> was a bloke with a walkie-talkie telling the foorplate crew what to
>>> do.
>>
>>
>> Oops... Buxton - I'm a lousy typist and my aging eyes see what they
>> expect when I re-read it before sending it.
>>
>> Two finger slips.
>>
> There is/was a similar vehicle (window cut out at the end and a brake
> valve within reach) at Quainton Road. No radio involved AFAIAA.
>

I had a brother in law a printer by trade who because he fell out with the
restrictive practises of Fleet street ended up as Railway staff at Euston
for a few months.
Basically he walked in and got a job as a shunter there and within a short
time was guiding trains
back towards the buffer stops by waving back towards the driver from the
door window of the
last vestibule.
I suppose he must have had some training but he gave the impression it was
fairly minimal, this would have been circa 1965. I was surprised that
someone could easily come from outside the railway world and end up doing a
job involving the movement of trains so easily.

Cannot get further details as Covid got him.

GH .