Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:

Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
(ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?

However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
period, so the issue did not arise.

The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
and one rule for day returns?

How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
because it departed from Euston during the peak period.

In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>
>Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>(ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>
>However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>period, so the issue did not arise.
>
>The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>and one rule for day returns?
>
>How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>because it departed from Euston during the peak period.

Answering the question generically to begin with:

While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
because the train has to stop at Kettering).

Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
leg to be considered.

As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
and you can find them at brfares.com eg:

<https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>

In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
start.

Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
each leg.

I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
you ask.

There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
stringent restrictions.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
>Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>
>>Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>(ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>
>>However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>period, so the issue did not arise.
>>
>>The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>>asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>and one rule for day returns?
>>
>>How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>
>Answering the question generically to begin with:
>
>While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
>less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
>Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
>the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
>express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
>Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
>because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>
>Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>leg to be considered.
>
>As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>
> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>
>In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
>station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
>likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
>from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
>station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
>start.
>
>Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>each leg.
>
>I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>you ask.
>
>There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>stringent restrictions.

Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
suppose.

This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train. And there is no
need for ticketing sites to mention this hugely disadvantageous
arrangement!

In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
>>Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>
>>>Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>(ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>
>>>However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>
>>>The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>>>asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>and one rule for day returns?
>>>
>>>How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>
>>Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>
>>While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
>>less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
>>Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
>>the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
>>express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
>>Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
>>because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>
>>Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>leg to be considered.
>>
>>As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>
>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>
>>In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
>>station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
>>likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
>>from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
>>station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
>>start.
>>
>>Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>>coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>each leg.
>>
>>I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>you ask.
>>
>>There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>stringent restrictions.
>
>Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>suppose.
>
>This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.

I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
event, and last stop is Warrington].

The cheaper[1] Any Permitted SVR *also* has a no-break-of-journey on
outward travel, so you MUST start from Hyndland. But without the XC
restriction.

There's a few other restrictions thrown in for traveling via Nottingham
etc, but I'll assume a direct train is preferred.

>And there is no need for ticketing sites to mention this hugely
>disadvantageous arrangement!

A ticket-selling site will ask you when you want to travel and won't
offer tickets which are invalid on a particular train.

[1] A rare find, there not many of thosearound.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:02:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
>Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
>>>Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>>and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>>
>>>>Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>>period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>>(ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>>Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>>short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>>journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>>
>>>>However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>>period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>>
>>>>The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>>>>asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>>to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>>possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>>Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>>an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>>off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>>was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>>tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>>commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>>and one rule for day returns?
>>>>
>>>>How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>>They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>>because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>>
>>>Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>>
>>>While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
>>>less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
>>>Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
>>>the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
>>>express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
>>>Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
>>>because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>>
>>>Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>>Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>>becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>>leg to be considered.
>>>
>>>As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>>and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>>
>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>>
>>>In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
>>>station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
>>>likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
>>>from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
>>>station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
>>>start.
>>>
>>>Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>>>coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>>each leg.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>you ask.
>>>
>>>There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>stringent restrictions.
>>
>>Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>suppose.
>>
>>This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>
>I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>event, and last stop is Warrington].

A poor choice of example then. If I stick with Edinburgh, there could
be situation where buying a through ticket at Hyndland (or many other
stations for that matter) during the peak period could result in
paying a peak fare to travel on an off-peak service from Queen Street
to Waverley. My concern is that passengers may be paying extra as a
result of inadequate knowledge of the fares structure.
>
>The cheaper[1] Any Permitted SVR *also* has a no-break-of-journey on
>outward travel, so you MUST start from Hyndland. But without the XC
>restriction.
>
>There's a few other restrictions thrown in for traveling via Nottingham
>etc, but I'll assume a direct train is preferred.
>
>>And there is no need for ticketing sites to mention this hugely
>>disadvantageous arrangement!
>
>A ticket-selling site will ask you when you want to travel and won't
>offer tickets which are invalid on a particular train.

But not apparently offer a combination of two tickets where this is
advantageous (unless I am missing something). I thought they promised
to end the 'split ticket anomaly' a few years ago.

You may be aware that ScotRail is abolishing peak fares for a six
month trial period starting in October.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:02:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
>> Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
>>>> Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>>> and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>>>
>>>>> Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>>> period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>>> (ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>>> Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>>> short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>>> journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>>>
>>>>> However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>>> period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>>>
>>>>> The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>>>>> asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>>> to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>>> possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>>> Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>>> an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>>> off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>>> was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>>> tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>>> commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>>> and one rule for day returns?
>>>>>
>>>>> How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>>> They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>>> because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>>>
>>>> Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>>>
>>>> While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
>>>> less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
>>>> Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
>>>> the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
>>>> express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
>>>> Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
>>>> because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>>>
>>>> Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>>> Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>>> becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>>> leg to be considered.
>>>>
>>>> As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>>> and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>>>
>>>> In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
>>>> station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
>>>> likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
>>>> from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
>>>> station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
>>>> start.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>>>> coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>>> each leg.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>> journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>> at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>> you ask.
>>>>
>>>> There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>> Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>> price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>> you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>> stringent restrictions.
>>>
>>> Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>> what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>> suppose.
>>>
>>> This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>> from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>> then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>> for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>
>> I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>> to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>> off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>> looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>> event, and last stop is Warrington].
>
> A poor choice of example then. ….

And IIUC also for another reason: unless it’s changed cross-border off-peak
tickets are valid at any time. I’ve had a booking office clerk at Waverley
complain about how he tries to save business travellers money by pointing
this out but some of them still say “no, no, I don’t know when I’ll be
travelling back so I need an Anytime ticket.”

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <u28qq0$tsvi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:15:12 on Tue, 25 Apr
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:02:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
>>> Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
>>>>> Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>>>> and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>>>> period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>>>> (ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>>>> Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>>>> short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>>>> journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>>>> period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>>>>>> asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>>>> to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>>>> possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>>>> Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>>>> an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>>>> off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>>>> was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>>>> tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>>>> commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>>>> and one rule for day returns?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>>>> They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>>>> because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>>>>
>>>>> Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>>>>
>>>>> While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
>>>>> less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
>>>>> Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
>>>>> the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
>>>>> express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
>>>>> Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
>>>>> because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>>>> Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>>>> becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>>>> leg to be considered.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>>>> and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>>>>
>>>>> In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
>>>>> station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
>>>>> likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
>>>>> from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
>>>>> station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
>>>>> start.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>>>>> coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>>>> each leg.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>>> journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>>> at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>>> you ask.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>>> Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>>> price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>>> you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>>> stringent restrictions.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>>> what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>>> suppose.
>>>>
>>>> This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>>> from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>>> then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>>> for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>>> to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>>> off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>>> looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>>> event, and last stop is Warrington].
>>
>> A poor choice of example then. ….
>
>And IIUC also for another reason: unless it’s changed cross-border off-peak
>tickets are valid at any time. I’ve had a booking office clerk at Waverley
>complain about how he tries to save business travellers money by pointing
>this out but some of them still say “no, no, I don’t know when I’ll be
>travelling back so I need an Anytime ticket.”

Slightly complicated at the moment because LNER are doing a "Singles
only" trial, but:

<https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&grpo=1072&rte=95&tkt=SSS>

Does include

"Not valid for departures from:

London Terminals (except as shown below) after 02:59 and before
09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays)"

That's quite a substantial late afternoon blackout.
--
Roland Perry

In message <aqmf4iljh7tk6ngfai38p8rjhqfdl0vhgt@4ax.com>, at 15:01:28 on
Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>>>>coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>>>each leg.
>>>>
>>>>I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>>journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>>at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>>you ask.
>>>>
>>>>There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>>Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>>price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>>you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>>stringent restrictions.
>>>
>>>Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>>what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>>suppose.
>>>
>>>This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>>from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>>then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>>for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>
>>I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>>to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>>off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>>looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>>event, and last stop is Warrington].
>
>A poor choice of example then. If I stick with Edinburgh, there could
>be situation where buying a through ticket at Hyndland (or many other
>stations for that matter) during the peak period could result in
>paying a peak fare to travel on an off-peak service from Queen Street
>to Waverley.

Yes, that's why people in the know split their tickets time-wise (see my
earlier example about Nottingham to Manchester via Sheffield).

Of course such a split into 2x Anytime or 2x Offpeak could also offer
savings.

>My concern is that passengers may be paying extra as a result of
>inadequate knowledge of the fares structure.

The only answer is for all ticket sellers (both human and online) to
grill the customer about their exact requirements, and what consequences
they might want to accept (it's not entirely all benefits every time)
and then issue the cheapest combination of tickets.

As a shortcut, passengers might consider looking at split ticketing
every place they physically change trains, or in England a quick win is
often splitting at whatever station [your train first calls at] which is
outside the NSE area.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u28qq0$tsvi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:15:12 on Tue, 25 Apr
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:02:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
>>>> Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
>>>>>> Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>>>>> and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>>>>> period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>>>>> (ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>>>>> Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>>>>> short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>>>>> journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>>>>> period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>>>>>>> asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>>>>> to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>>>>> possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>>>>> Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>>>>> an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>>>>> off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>>>>> was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>>>>> tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>>>>> commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>>>>> and one rule for day returns?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>>>>> They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>>>>> because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
>>>>>> less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
>>>>>> Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
>>>>>> the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
>>>>>> express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
>>>>>> Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
>>>>>> because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>>>>> Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>>>>> becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>>>>> leg to be considered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>>>>> and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
>>>>>> station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
>>>>>> likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
>>>>>> from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
>>>>>> station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
>>>>>> start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>>>>>> coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>>>>> each leg.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>>>> journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>>>> at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>>>> you ask.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>>>> Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>>>> price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>>>> you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>>>> stringent restrictions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>>>> what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>>>> from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>>>> then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>>>> for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>>>> to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>>>> off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>>>> looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>>>> event, and last stop is Warrington].
>>>
>>> A poor choice of example then. ….
>>
>> And IIUC also for another reason: unless it’s changed cross-border off-peak
>> tickets are valid at any time. I’ve had a booking office clerk at Waverley
>> complain about how he tries to save business travellers money by pointing
>> this out but some of them still say “no, no, I don’t know when I’ll be
>> travelling back so I need an Anytime ticket.”
>
> Slightly complicated at the moment because LNER are doing a "Singles
> only" trial, but:
>
> <https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&grpo=1072&rte=95&tkt=SSS>

Horrible cookie management options - I’ll not go there unless its
absolutely necessary.

> Does include
>
> "Not valid for departures from:
>
> London Terminals (except as shown below) after 02:59 and before
> 09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays)"
>
> That's quite a substantial late afternoon blackout.

Oh, yes, I’d forgotten about the singles only stuff. Looking at the OP’s
Hyndland to Euston example, though, NRE shows all the return fares as
Off-Peak.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 26/04/2023 11:45, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <aqmf4iljh7tk6ngfai38p8rjhqfdl0vhgt@4ax.com>, at 15:01:28 on
> Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>>> Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least]
>>>>> two
>>>>> coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>>>> each leg.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>>> journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>>> at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>>> you ask.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>>> Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>>> price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>>> you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>>> stringent restrictions.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks very much.  This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>>> what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland.  Caveat emptor, I
>>>> suppose.
>>>>
>>>> This could have drastic consequences.  If a person purchases a ticket
>>>> from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>>> then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>>> for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>>> to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>>> off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>>> looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>>> event, and last stop is Warrington].
>>
>> A poor choice of example then.  If I stick with Edinburgh, there could
>> be situation where buying a through ticket at Hyndland (or many other
>> stations for that matter) during the peak period could result in
>> paying a peak fare to travel on an off-peak service from Queen Street
>> to Waverley.
>
> Yes, that's why people in the know split their tickets time-wise (see my
> earlier example about Nottingham to Manchester via Sheffield).
>
> Of course such a split into 2x Anytime or 2x Offpeak could also offer
> savings.
>
>> My concern is that passengers may be paying extra as a result of
>> inadequate knowledge of the fares structure.
>
> The only answer is for all ticket sellers (both human and online) to
> grill the customer about their exact requirements, and what consequences
> they might want to accept (it's not entirely all benefits every time)
> and then issue the cheapest combination of tickets.
>
> As a shortcut, passengers might consider looking at split ticketing
> every place they physically change trains, or in England a quick win is
> often splitting at whatever station [your train first calls at] which is
> outside the NSE area.

When manually splitting before helpful websites became available I found
the last station stop inside NSE was a good bet. Some of my splits
still seem to work that way.

In message <u2b0g1$1btvr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:33 on Wed, 26 Apr
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u28qq0$tsvi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:15:12 on Tue, 25 Apr
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:02:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
>>>>> Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
>>>>>>> Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>>>>>> and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>>>>>> period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>>>>>> (ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>>>>>> Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>>>>>> short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>>>>>> journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>>>>>> period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>>>>>>>> asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>>>>>> to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>>>>>> possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>>>>>> Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>>>>>> an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>>>>>> off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>>>>>> was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>>>>>> tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>>>>>> commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>>>>>> and one rule for day returns?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>>>>>> They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>>>>>> because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
>>>>>>> less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
>>>>>>> Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
>>>>>>> the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
>>>>>>> express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
>>>>>>> Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
>>>>>>> because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>>>>>> Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>>>>>> becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>>>>>> leg to be considered.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>>>>>> and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
>>>>>>> station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
>>>>>>> likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
>>>>>>> from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
>>>>>>> station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
>>>>>>> start.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>>>>>>> coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>>>>>> each leg.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>>>>> journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>>>>> at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>>>>> you ask.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>>>>> Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>>>>> price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>>>>> you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>>>>> stringent restrictions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>>>>> what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>>>>> from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>>>>> then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>>>>> for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>>>>> to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>>>>> off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>>>>> looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>>>>> event, and last stop is Warrington].
>>>>
>>>> A poor choice of example then. ….
>>>
>>> And IIUC also for another reason: unless it’s changed cross-border
>>>off-peak
>>> tickets are valid at any time. I’ve had a booking office clerk at
>>>Waverley
>>> complain about how he tries to save business travellers money by pointing
>>> this out but some of them still say “no, no, I don’t know when I’ll be
>>> travelling back so I need an Anytime ticket.”
>>
>> Slightly complicated at the moment because LNER are doing a "Singles
>> only" trial, but:
>>
>>
>><https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&grpo=1072&rte=95
>>&tkt=SSS>
>
>Horrible cookie management options - I’ll not go there unless its
>absolutely necessary.

Try setting you browser to delete all cookies when you leave the site
(or I just use my anti-malware to tidy things up).

Or try https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/9F

>> Does include
>>
>> "Not valid for departures from:
>>
>> London Terminals (except as shown below) after 02:59 and before
>> 09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays)"
>>
>> That's quite a substantial late afternoon blackout.
>
>Oh, yes, I’d forgotten about the singles only stuff. Looking at the OP’s
>Hyndland to Euston example, though, NRE shows all the return fares as
>Off-Peak.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u2b0g1$1btvr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:33 on Wed, 26 Apr
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u28qq0$tsvi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:15:12 on Tue, 25 Apr
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:02:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
>>>>>> Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at 21:46:04 on
>>>>>>>> Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>>>>>>> and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>>>>>>> period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>>>>>>> (ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>>>>>>> Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>>>>>>> short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>>>>>>> journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>>>>>>> period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period return. I
>>>>>>>>> asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>>>>>>> to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>>>>>>> possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>>>>>>> Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>>>>>>> an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>>>>>>> off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>>>>>>> was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>>>>>>> tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>>>>>>> commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>>>>>>> and one rule for day returns?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>>>>>>> They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>>>>>>> because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B and B-C,
>>>>>>>> less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting across the
>>>>>>>> Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do not have to offer you
>>>>>>>> the cheapest combination (which sometimes is quite complicated to
>>>>>>>> express, and can be non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return
>>>>>>>> Nottingham to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least
>>>>>>>> because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>>>>>>> Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>>>>>>> becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>>>>>>> leg to be considered.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>>>>>>> and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In most of the country what matters is when your train departs from the
>>>>>>>> station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the southeast are
>>>>>>>> likely to involve the time the train *arrives* in London, or departs
>>>>>>>> from London. It doesn't matter if you get on/off at an intermediate
>>>>>>>> station, the train has same flavour as if you'd been on it from the
>>>>>>>> start.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at least] two
>>>>>>>> coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon you are using for
>>>>>>>> each leg.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>>>>>> journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>>>>>> at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>>>>>> you ask.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>>>>>> Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>>>>>> price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>>>>>> you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>>>>>> stringent restrictions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>>>>>> what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>>>>>> from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>>>>>> then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>>>>>> for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>>>>>> to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>>>>>> off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>>>>>> looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>>>>>> event, and last stop is Warrington].
>>>>>
>>>>> A poor choice of example then. ….
>>>>
>>>> And IIUC also for another reason: unless it’s changed cross-border
>>>> off-peak
>>>> tickets are valid at any time. I’ve had a booking office clerk at
>>>> Waverley
>>>> complain about how he tries to save business travellers money by pointing
>>>> this out but some of them still say “no, no, I don’t know when I’ll be
>>>> travelling back so I need an Anytime ticket.”
>>>
>>> Slightly complicated at the moment because LNER are doing a "Singles
>>> only" trial, but:
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&grpo=1072&rte=95
>>> &tkt=SSS>
>>
>> Horrible cookie management options - I’ll not go there unless its
>> absolutely necessary.
>
> Try setting you browser to delete all cookies when you leave the site
> (or I just use my anti-malware to tidy things up).

In message <u2ba20$1dee4$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:47:44 on Wed, 26 Apr
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u2b0g1$1btvr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:33 on Wed, 26 Apr
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u28qq0$tsvi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:15:12 on Tue, 25 Apr
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:02:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
>>>>>>> Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>21:46:04 on
>>>>>>>>> Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>>>>>>>> and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>>>>>>>> period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>>>>>>>> (ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>>>>>>>> Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>>>>>>>> short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>>>>>>>> journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>>>>>>>> period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>>>>>>>> to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>>>>>>>> possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>>>>>>>> Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>>>>>>>> an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>>>>>>>> off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>>>>>>>> was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>>>>>>>> tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>>>>>>>> commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>>>>>>>> and one rule for day returns?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>>>>>>>> They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>>>>>>>> because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B
>>>>>>>>> less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting
>>>>>>>>>across the Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do
>>>>>>>>>not have to offer you the cheapest combination (which
>>>>>>>>>sometimes is quite complicated to express, and can be
>>>>>>>>>non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return Nottingham
>>>>>>>>>to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least because the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>>>>>>>> Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>>>>>>>> becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>>>>>>>> leg to be considered.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>>>>>>>> and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In most of the country what matters is when your train departs
>>>>>>>>>from the station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the
>>>>>>>>>southeast are likely to involve the time the train *arrives*
>>>>>>>>>in London, or departs from London. It doesn't matter if you
>>>>>>>>>get on/off at an intermediate station, the train has same
>>>>>>>>>flavour as if you'd been on it from the start.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at
>>>>>>>>>least] two coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon
>>>>>>>>> each leg.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>>>>>>> journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>>>>>>> at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>>>>>>> you ask.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>>>>>>> Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>>>>>>> price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>>>>>>> you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>>>>>>> stringent restrictions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>>>>>>> what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>>>>>>> from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>>>>>>> then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>>>>>>> for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>>>>>>> to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>>>>>>> off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>>>>>>> looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>>>>>>> event, and last stop is Warrington].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A poor choice of example then. ….
>>>>>
>>>>> And IIUC also for another reason: unless it’s changed
>>>>>cross-border off-peak tickets are valid at any time. I’ve had a
>>>>>booking office clerk at Waverley complain about how he tries to
>>>>>travellers money by pointing this out but some of them still say
>>>>>“no, no, I don’t know when I’ll be travelling back so I need
>>>>>an Anytime ticket.”
>>>>
>>>> Slightly complicated at the moment because LNER are doing a "Singles
>>>> only" trial, but:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&grpo=1072&rte=95
>>>> &tkt=SSS>
>>>
>>> Horrible cookie management options - I’ll not go there unless its
>>> absolutely necessary.
>>
>> Try setting you browser to delete all cookies when you leave the site
>> (or I just use my anti-malware to tidy things up).
>
>I don’t seem to have that option in my browsers. Anyway it’s only the
>advertising and tracking cookies I want to block.
>
>> Or try https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/9F
>
>Without context that doesn’t really tell me anything, unless it’s that you
>can only travel behind Evening Star or one of her sisters.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u2ba20$1dee4$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:47:44 on Wed, 26 Apr
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u2b0g1$1btvr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:33 on Wed, 26 Apr
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <u28qq0$tsvi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:15:12 on Tue, 25 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:02:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <oq2f4i185hj0rbf5o01legidmi40ks3od8@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
>>>>>>>> Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:23:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <p9pd4i19qladdrr7uds3ledg3pojpt1ibm@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 21:46:04 on
>>>>>>>>>> Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Today travelled from Hyndland to Kirkcaldy, changing at Queen Street
>>>>>>>>>>> and Haymarket - and back again. Two arcane points:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Initially, I was going to depart Hyndland at 09:09 (within the peak
>>>>>>>>>>> period) and National Rail Enquiries showed the fare as £39.50
>>>>>>>>>>> (ignoring railcard discounts for simplicity). However, the train at
>>>>>>>>>>> Queen Street was off-peak, so I could have paid the peak fare for the
>>>>>>>>>>> short journey to Queen Street then the off-peak fare for the onward
>>>>>>>>>>> journey. Is NRE misleading the public here?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, my time changed and I commenced my journey after the peak
>>>>>>>>>>> period, so the issue did not arise.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The off-peak fare was shown as £30.70 for an off-peak period
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> asked at station about splitting the ticket at Haymarket to allow me
>>>>>>>>>>> to purchase two off-peak day returns instead. I was told this was
>>>>>>>>>>> possible but I would not be allowed to board the train home at
>>>>>>>>>>> Haymarket during the (Waverley) peak period. I was told if I bought
>>>>>>>>>>> an off-peak period return there is no restriction on boarding but an
>>>>>>>>>>> off-peak day return does not allow this. I thought changing trains
>>>>>>>>>>> was always allowed but as I thought about it, I suppose with split
>>>>>>>>>>> tickets the argument would be that I was not changing trains but
>>>>>>>>>>> commencing a new journey. How can it be one rule for period returns
>>>>>>>>>>> and one rule for day returns?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How far out of the terminus station does the evening peak rule apply?
>>>>>>>>>>> They could hardly say a passenger cannot board a train at Preston
>>>>>>>>>>> because it departed from Euston during the peak period.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Answering the question generically to begin with:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While split ticketing to get a cheaper fare by combining A-B
>>>>>>>>>> less well known, or supported by booking sites, is splitting
>>>>>>>>>> across the Peak/Off-peak shoulder. Official ticket sellers do
>>>>>>>>>> not have to offer you the cheapest combination (which
>>>>>>>>>> sometimes is quite complicated to express, and can be
>>>>>>>>>> non-obvious, such as for example an Anytime return Nottingham
>>>>>>>>>> to Kettering, and then an off-peak Travelcard; not least because
>>>>>>>>>> the train has to stop at Kettering).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Back in the day time-splitting was something I did for example
>>>>>>>>>> Nottingham to Manchester with a split at Sheffield after 9.30am. It
>>>>>>>>>> becomes a bit trickier if there's an evening peak period on the return
>>>>>>>>>> leg to be considered.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for "barred trains", then each coupon has the restrictions listed,
>>>>>>>>>> and you can find them at brfares.com eg:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HYN&dest=KDY>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In most of the country what matters is when your train departs
>>>>>>>>>> from the station named on the coupon. Although journeys in the
>>>>>>>>>> southeast are likely to involve the time the train *arrives*
>>>>>>>>>> in London, or departs from London. It doesn't matter if you
>>>>>>>>>> get on/off at an intermediate station, the train has same
>>>>>>>>>> flavour as if you'd been on it from the start.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course, if you've split the tickets, then you'll have [at
>>>>>>>>>> least] two coupons, and the restrictions arise from the coupon
>>>>>>>>>> each leg.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure if delay/repay treats a split ticketed trip as "one
>>>>>>>>>> journey" financially, if a hiccough on one leg affects your arrival
>>>>>>>>>> at the final destination. You may get different answers depending who
>>>>>>>>>> you ask.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason why the timing restrictions should be the same on
>>>>>>>>>> Off-Peak Returns and Off-Peak *Day* returns, indeed often the higher
>>>>>>>>>> price for the former is precisely because it's more relaxed about when
>>>>>>>>>> you can travel. See also *Super*-Off-Peak tickets with much more
>>>>>>>>>> stringent restrictions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks very much. This clarifies the position and indeed supports
>>>>>>>>> what I was told by the booking clerk at Hyndland. Caveat emptor, I
>>>>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This could have drastic consequences. If a person purchases a ticket
>>>>>>>>> from Hyndland to London to leave Hyndland before 09.15, he/she could
>>>>>>>>> then be charged the peak fare from Glasgow Central to London Euston
>>>>>>>>> for the privilege of travelling on an off-peak train.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure what your concern is, the SVR via York just says "don't get
>>>>>>>> to London before 10am" and "Don't use XC before 09:30" plus "Don't get
>>>>>>>> off at Milton Keynes or Watford before 10:20" [this will require some
>>>>>>>> looking at the timetable...you can't get to London before 11:12 in any
>>>>>>>> event, and last stop is Warrington].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A poor choice of example then. ….
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And IIUC also for another reason: unless it’s changed
>>>>>> cross-border off-peak tickets are valid at any time. I’ve had a
>>>>>> booking office clerk at Waverley complain about how he tries to
>>>>>> travellers money by pointing this out but some of them still say
>>>>>> “no, no, I don’t know when I’ll be travelling back so I need
>>>>>> an Anytime ticket.”
>>>>>
>>>>> Slightly complicated at the moment because LNER are doing a "Singles
>>>>> only" trial, but:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&grpo=1072&rte=95
>>>>> &tkt=SSS>
>>>>
>>>> Horrible cookie management options - I’ll not go there unless its
>>>> absolutely necessary.
>>>
>>> Try setting you browser to delete all cookies when you leave the site
>>> (or I just use my anti-malware to tidy things up).
>>
>> I don’t seem to have that option in my browsers. Anyway it’s only the
>> advertising and tracking cookies I want to block.
>>
>>> Or try https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/9F
>>
>> Without context that doesn’t really tell me anything, unless it’s that you
>> can only travel behind Evening Star or one of her sisters.
>
> It's the restrictions on that KGX-EDI fare (which you refuse to get from
> BRFARES.COM, so I've given you an alternate source).

In message <u2bv5f$1h19a$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:47:59 on Wed, 26 Apr
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>>>> And IIUC also for another reason: unless it’s changed
>>>>>>> cross-border off-peak tickets are valid at any time. I’ve had a
>>>>>>> booking office clerk at Waverley complain about how he tries to
>>>>>>> travellers money by pointing this out but some of them still say
>>>>>>> “no, no, I don’t know when I’ll be travelling back so I need
>>>>>>> an Anytime ticket.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Slightly complicated at the moment because LNER are doing a "Singles
>>>>>> only" trial, but:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&grpo=1072&rte=95
>>>>>> &tkt=SSS>
>>>>>
>>>>> Horrible cookie management options - I’ll not go there unless its
>>>>> absolutely necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Try setting you browser to delete all cookies when you leave the site
>>>> (or I just use my anti-malware to tidy things up).
>>>
>>> I don’t seem to have that option in my browsers. Anyway it’s only the
>>> advertising and tracking cookies I want to block.
>>>
>>>> Or try https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/9F
>>>
>>> Without context that doesn’t really tell me anything, unless
>>>it’s that you can only travel behind Evening Star or one of her
>>>sisters.
>>
>> It's the restrictions on that KGX-EDI fare (which you refuse to get from
>> BRFARES.COM, so I've given you an alternate source).
>
>And I’d already pointed out that a) I’d forgotten that LNER is now doing
>double singles rather than returns and b) I was looking at the Hyndland to
>Euston fares, so that restriction is irrelevant.,
>
>>>>>> Does include
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Not valid for departures from:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> London Terminals (except as shown below) after 02:59 and before
>>>>>> 09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays)"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's quite a substantial late afternoon blackout.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, yes, I’d forgotten about the singles only stuff. Looking at
>>>>>the OP’s Hyndland to Euston example, though, NRE shows all the
>>>>>return fares as Off-Peak.
>>>>
>>>> It shouldn't be:
>>>>
>>>> ANYTIME R
>>>> SOR
>>>> Route ANY PERMITTED
>>>> Validity Outward: FIVE DAYS
>>>> Return: ONE MONTH
>>>> Adult £393.00
>>>> Child £196.50
>>>> Fare Setter: AVANTI WEST COAST
>>>>
>>>> ANYTIME R
>>>> SOR
>>>> Route VIA YORK
>>>> Validity Outward: FIVE DAYS
>>>> Return: ONE MONTH
>>>> Adult £377.10
>>>> Child £188.55
>>>
>>> Yes, but on any reasonable return journey from Hyndland to London Euston,
>>> e.g. leaving at 06:03 and returnimg late afternoon, NRE will offer you only
>>> Off-Peak returns at around £170, not Anytime. Only the 04:28 from Glasgow
>>> Central seems to need the higher fare for some reason.
>>
>> That's what you get for using an OP [and a not very good one] as a proxy
>> for the fares manual!
>
>Huh? That’s not what I was doing. I was pointing out a second reason why
>the OP’s choosing to use Hyndland to Euston as an example of a fare that
>might benefit from peak/off-peak splitting was that the off-peak fare is
>valid at any time.

The leg back north isn't:

Via York
--------
Not valid for departures from:

London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:05 or after 15:00 and before
18:45

Any Permitted
------------
Not valid on trains timed to depart:

London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:05;(Restrictions do not
apply on Fridays)

><irony> I recommend that the next time you come to Scotland on a return
>ticket you insist on purchasing an Anytime return in case you have to
>change the time you’ll be returning at. </irony>

The ticket will depend on what time I was leaving Euston, where I was
travelling to etc. While I might not be planning on coming *back* at
crack of dawn, I might well be wanting to start travelling *up* before
9am.

[In practice I'd buy an AP ticket, rather than an open one, of course]
--
Roland Perry