The train I was waiting for yesterday on its way to the coast (but the
footage below - none mine - was the day before).

<thread convergence> FLIRTing with bidirectional running.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuP7D1DGRE

Don't agree with the comments about "near miss" (AHB minimums are iirc
27 seconds warning, with the first 10 seconds for the barriers to fall),
and of course you can hear a kettle, or spot the smoke, before seeing
the train itself, a lot of the time. As indeed the author points out
later.

Technical note: I can see some automatic-camera-shake artifacts in a few
places, makes filming fast moving objects a bit trickier.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> The train I was waiting for yesterday on its way to the coast (but the
> footage below - none mine - was the day before).
>
> <thread convergence> FLIRTing with bidirectional running.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuP7D1DGRE
>
> Don't agree with the comments about "near miss" (AHB minimums are iirc
> 27 seconds warning, with the first 10 seconds for the barriers to fall),
> and of course you can hear a kettle, or spot the smoke, before seeing
> the train itself, a lot of the time. As indeed the author points out
> later.
>
> Technical note: I can see some automatic-camera-shake artifacts in a few
> places, makes filming fast moving objects a bit trickier.

Thanks, I'd not seen that.

It must be very rare for RTC trains to visit the company's home base — I
hope all the girls from the office met the train, and perhaps even
travelled on it for that leg! Usually only Kelly comes on tours.

In message <u25aqp$8csg$5@dont-email.me>, at 07:24:09 on Mon, 24 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> The train I was waiting for yesterday on its way to the coast (but the
>> footage below - none mine - was the day before).
>>
>> <thread convergence> FLIRTing with bidirectional running.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuP7D1DGRE
>>
>> Don't agree with the comments about "near miss" (AHB minimums are iirc
>> 27 seconds warning, with the first 10 seconds for the barriers to fall),
>> and of course you can hear a kettle, or spot the smoke, before seeing
>> the train itself, a lot of the time. As indeed the author points out
>> later.
>>
>> Technical note: I can see some automatic-camera-shake artifacts in a few
>> places, makes filming fast moving objects a bit trickier.
>
>Thanks, I'd not seen that.
>
>It must be very rare for RTC trains to visit the company's home base — I
>hope all the girls from the office met the train, and perhaps even
>travelled on it for that leg! Usually only Kelly comes on tours.

I think it's on average about once every five years, and likely not a
regular one-day public trip. Those all diverge to/from Norwich or
Peterborough-and-the-north. Or use the Queen Adelaide loop to get
between Norwich and Peterborough.

Here's my video: https://youtu.be/XyJM27BInAk Slightly different from
usual, and you can see faces in the windows. Taken from just the safe
side of the AHB, although a far better (and just as safe, but
disapproved, spot was available inside the barriers next to the
northbound track). https://goo.gl/maps/aXyndU5Gvi8yS3yj6

--
Roland Perry

In message <l2NT6fmOOnRkFAlw@perry.uk>, at 13:18:22 on Mon, 24 Apr 2023,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>In message <u25aqp$8csg$5@dont-email.me>, at 07:24:09 on Mon, 24 Apr
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> The train I was waiting for yesterday on its way to the coast (but the
>>> footage below - none mine - was the day before).
>>>
>>> <thread convergence> FLIRTing with bidirectional running.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuP7D1DGRE
>>>
>>> Don't agree with the comments about "near miss" (AHB minimums are iirc
>>> 27 seconds warning, with the first 10 seconds for the barriers to fall),
>>> and of course you can hear a kettle, or spot the smoke, before seeing
>>> the train itself, a lot of the time. As indeed the author points out
>>> later.
>>>
>>> Technical note: I can see some automatic-camera-shake artifacts in a few
>>> places, makes filming fast moving objects a bit trickier.
>>
>>Thanks, I'd not seen that.
>>
>>It must be very rare for RTC trains to visit the company's home base — I
>>hope all the girls from the office met the train, and perhaps even
>>travelled on it for that leg! Usually only Kelly comes on tours.
>
>I think it's on average about once every five years, and likely not a
>regular one-day public trip. Those all diverge to/from Norwich or
>Peterborough-and-the-north. Or use the Queen Adelaide loop to get
>between Norwich and Peterborough.
>
>Here's my video: https://youtu.be/XyJM27BInAk Slightly different from
>usual, and you can see faces in the windows. Taken from just the safe
>side of the AHB, although a far better (and just as safe, but
>disapproved, spot was available inside the barriers next to the
>northbound track). https://goo.gl/maps/aXyndU5Gvi8yS3yj6

Another one (as ever, curated for me by Facebook):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL_KrkirKxo
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <l2NT6fmOOnRkFAlw@perry.uk>, at 13:18:22 on Mon, 24 Apr 2023,
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>> In message <u25aqp$8csg$5@dont-email.me>, at 07:24:09 on Mon, 24 Apr
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> The train I was waiting for yesterday on its way to the coast (but the
>>>> footage below - none mine - was the day before).
>>>>
>>>> <thread convergence> FLIRTing with bidirectional running.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuP7D1DGRE
>>>>
>>>> Don't agree with the comments about "near miss" (AHB minimums are iirc
>>>> 27 seconds warning, with the first 10 seconds for the barriers to fall),
>>>> and of course you can hear a kettle, or spot the smoke, before seeing
>>>> the train itself, a lot of the time. As indeed the author points out
>>>> later.
>>>>
>>>> Technical note: I can see some automatic-camera-shake artifacts in a few
>>>> places, makes filming fast moving objects a bit trickier.
>>>
>>> Thanks, I'd not seen that.
>>>
>>> It must be very rare for RTC trains to visit the company's home base — I
>>> hope all the girls from the office met the train, and perhaps even
>>> travelled on it for that leg! Usually only Kelly comes on tours.
>>
>> I think it's on average about once every five years, and likely not a
>> regular one-day public trip. Those all diverge to/from Norwich or
>> Peterborough-and-the-north. Or use the Queen Adelaide loop to get
>> between Norwich and Peterborough.
>>
>> Here's my video: https://youtu.be/XyJM27BInAk Slightly different from
>> usual, and you can see faces in the windows. Taken from just the safe
>> side of the AHB, although a far better (and just as safe, but
>> disapproved, spot was available inside the barriers next to the
>> northbound track). https://goo.gl/maps/aXyndU5Gvi8yS3yj6
>
> Another one (as ever, curated for me by Facebook):
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL_KrkirKxo

It certainly had an interesting route for a steam charter through East
Anglia:

Saturday 22nd April
Scarborough to the heart of the fens, Spalding, then to Kings Lynn in
Norfolk

Leaving the seaside resort of Scarborough in the morning, you retrace the
previous day’s route back through Malton to York. Here you follow the East
Coast main line as far as Doncaster where it branches off to take the Great
Eastern and Great Northern Joint line towards Gainsborough. Leaving South
Yorkshire, you enter Lincolnshire and run via Saxilby to Lincoln, whose
lofty cathedral can be seen for miles around. From Lincoln, you follow the
Joint line through the rural Lincolnshire countryside to Sleaford and on
through vast agricultural landscapes to Spalding. Known as the Heart of the
Fens, Spalding is famous for its tulips and agricultural produce.

From Spalding, you join the Great Northern line to Peterborough and take
the East Coast Main Line at Werrington Junction. Entering Peterborough, the
great cathedral overlooks the city as you cross the river Nene and head
across the Fens towards March. The flat terrain stretches eastwards, with
striking views of Ely cathedral on the horizon. Skirting Ely you join the
King’s Lynn branch and pass through Downham Market before arriving in
King’s Lynn for your overnight stay in local hotels. King’s Lynn is a busy
historic market town and port with cobbles lanes and two market places,
located on the River Great Ouse, where you will spend your last night on
the Great Britain tour.

Sunday 23rd April
Kings Lynn to Felixstowe and to London Liverpool Street

Departing King’s Lynn this morning, you will head back to Ely, and then
branch off the Cambridge line at Ely Dock Junction and join the rarely
travelled route by steam over the Bury St Edmunds line via Soham.
Continuing eastwards , you now join the East Anglia main line from Norwich
at Haughley Junction and head for Ipswich. You will continue on to the East
Suffolk Line as far as Westerfield Junction, where you will take the Great
Eastern Railway’s branch to Felixstowe, which will be a rare opportunity to
travel over the branch by a steam hauled charter train. You return towards
Ipswich diesel hauled as far a Claydon, where you reverse direction again
to continue steam hauled. Normally a very busy branch line with frequent
freight workings to and from the Port of Felixstowe, your steam hauled
return journey will surely attract a lot of interest from the locals!

Leaving Claydon you’ll pass through Ipswich, Colchester and Chelmsford
enroute back to London Liverpool Street. You arrive late afternoon to mark
the end of your exciting and contrasting nine-day tour around fabulous
Great Britain.

———

But I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed. Also,
it's rare for the tour to depart from or return to London hauled by such a
humble loco; normally it uses a big Pacific at the London ends. I wonder if
the train was slightly shorter this year? Or perhaps a Black Five is
enough for the 1:1000 Fenland gradients?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u25aqp$8csg$5@dont-email.me>, at 07:24:09 on Mon, 24 Apr
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> The train I was waiting for yesterday on its way to the coast (but the
>>> footage below - none mine - was the day before).
>>>
>>> <thread convergence> FLIRTing with bidirectional running.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuP7D1DGRE
>>>
>>> Don't agree with the comments about "near miss" (AHB minimums are iirc
>>> 27 seconds warning, with the first 10 seconds for the barriers to fall),
>>> and of course you can hear a kettle, or spot the smoke, before seeing
>>> the train itself, a lot of the time. As indeed the author points out
>>> later.
>>>
>>> Technical note: I can see some automatic-camera-shake artifacts in a few
>>> places, makes filming fast moving objects a bit trickier.
>>
>> Thanks, I'd not seen that.
>>
>> It must be very rare for RTC trains to visit the company's home base — I
>> hope all the girls from the office met the train, and perhaps even
>> travelled on it for that leg! Usually only Kelly comes on tours.
>
> I think it's on average about once every five years, and likely not a
> regular one-day public trip. Those all diverge to/from Norwich or
> Peterborough-and-the-north. Or use the Queen Adelaide loop to get
> between Norwich and Peterborough.
>

Yes, one-day steam tours need a destination where, ideally, no reversal is
needed as they're on a circular route, or, at least one where there's a
nearby option to turn the loco. Circular routes include Canterbury, Exeter,
Lincoln, Margate, etc, while good turning locations include Carlisle,
Lincoln, Scarborough, York, etc. Kings Lynn is on neither list, so it only
makes sense as a steam destination if there's an overnight stop, giving
enough time for the train to use the Queen Adelaide loop. I'm actually
surprised there enough local rooms for the GB train load.

Last year's equivalent was Penzance, with the locos having to return to
Laira to be turned.

In message <u26tp7$gm59$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:53:43 on Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u25aqp$8csg$5@dont-email.me>, at 07:24:09 on Mon, 24 Apr
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> The train I was waiting for yesterday on its way to the coast (but the
>>>> footage below - none mine - was the day before).
>>>>
>>>> <thread convergence> FLIRTing with bidirectional running.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuP7D1DGRE
>>>>
>>>> Don't agree with the comments about "near miss" (AHB minimums are iirc
>>>> 27 seconds warning, with the first 10 seconds for the barriers to fall),
>>>> and of course you can hear a kettle, or spot the smoke, before seeing
>>>> the train itself, a lot of the time. As indeed the author points out
>>>> later.
>>>>
>>>> Technical note: I can see some automatic-camera-shake artifacts in a few
>>>> places, makes filming fast moving objects a bit trickier.
>>>
>>> Thanks, I'd not seen that.
>>>
>>> It must be very rare for RTC trains to visit the company's home base — I
>>> hope all the girls from the office met the train, and perhaps even
>>> travelled on it for that leg! Usually only Kelly comes on tours.
>>
>> I think it's on average about once every five years, and likely not a
>> regular one-day public trip. Those all diverge to/from Norwich or
>> Peterborough-and-the-north. Or use the Queen Adelaide loop to get
>> between Norwich and Peterborough.
>
>Yes, one-day steam tours need a destination where, ideally, no reversal is
>needed as they're on a circular route, or, at least one where there's a
>nearby option to turn the loco. Circular routes include Canterbury, Exeter,
>Lincoln, Margate, etc, while good turning locations include Carlisle,
>Lincoln, Scarborough, York, etc. Kings Lynn is on neither list, so it only
>makes sense as a steam destination if there's an overnight stop, giving
>enough time for the train to use the Queen Adelaide loop. I'm actually
>surprised there enough local rooms for the GB train load.

Kings Lynn is a big place (population circa 50k, more than 3x that of
Penzance). They turned the train Saturday evening, via Ely West.

<https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66258/2023-04-22/detailed>
<https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66259/2023-04-22/detailed>

>Last year's equivalent was Penzance, with the locos having to return to
>Laira to be turned.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u26tp7$gm59$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:53:43 on Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u25aqp$8csg$5@dont-email.me>, at 07:24:09 on Mon, 24 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> The train I was waiting for yesterday on its way to the coast (but the
>>>>> footage below - none mine - was the day before).
>>>>>
>>>>> <thread convergence> FLIRTing with bidirectional running.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuP7D1DGRE
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't agree with the comments about "near miss" (AHB minimums are iirc
>>>>> 27 seconds warning, with the first 10 seconds for the barriers to fall),
>>>>> and of course you can hear a kettle, or spot the smoke, before seeing
>>>>> the train itself, a lot of the time. As indeed the author points out
>>>>> later.
>>>>>
>>>>> Technical note: I can see some automatic-camera-shake artifacts in a few
>>>>> places, makes filming fast moving objects a bit trickier.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, I'd not seen that.
>>>>
>>>> It must be very rare for RTC trains to visit the company's home base — I
>>>> hope all the girls from the office met the train, and perhaps even
>>>> travelled on it for that leg! Usually only Kelly comes on tours.
>>>
>>> I think it's on average about once every five years, and likely not a
>>> regular one-day public trip. Those all diverge to/from Norwich or
>>> Peterborough-and-the-north. Or use the Queen Adelaide loop to get
>>> between Norwich and Peterborough.
>>
>> Yes, one-day steam tours need a destination where, ideally, no reversal is
>> needed as they're on a circular route, or, at least one where there's a
>> nearby option to turn the loco. Circular routes include Canterbury, Exeter,
>> Lincoln, Margate, etc, while good turning locations include Carlisle,
>> Lincoln, Scarborough, York, etc. Kings Lynn is on neither list, so it only
>> makes sense as a steam destination if there's an overnight stop, giving
>> enough time for the train to use the Queen Adelaide loop. I'm actually
>> surprised there enough local rooms for the GB train load.
>
> Kings Lynn is a big place (population circa 50k, more than 3x that of
> Penzance).

OK, I hadn't realised. But would it have so many tourist hotels? In
Penzance, they had to use hotels in neighbouring towns as well.

Of course, RTC's origins were in a Kings Lynn hotel, which Nigel Dobbing
managed, with Kelly as his assistant. One of the rare steam visits to the
town was this memorial train to him four years ago:

https://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/steam-train-departing-from-kings-lynn-remembers-leading-heritage-rail-figure-nigel-dobbing-9064732/

https://youtu.be/OLCGaHp7mkU

> They turned the train Saturday evening, via Ely West.
>
> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66258/2023-04-22/detailed>
> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66259/2023-04-22/detailed>
>

Thanks. That works for an overnight stop, but not for a day trip.

In message <u27tpm$oqrk$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:00:06 on Tue, 25 Apr
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>On 24/04/2023 21:43, Recliner wrote:

>> But I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
>> usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed. Also,
>> it's rare for the tour to depart from or return to London hauled by such a
>> humble loco; normally it uses a big Pacific at the London ends. I wonder if
>> the train was slightly shorter this year? Or perhaps a Black Five is
>> enough for the 1:1000 Fenland gradients?
>
>They have gradients in the Fens?

The line from March to Ely has some mild gradients on it, but I think
the train would have been going downhill (to coin a phrase).
--
Roland Perry

In message <u27s62$opcd$5@dont-email.me>, at 06:32:34 on Tue, 25 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Kings Lynn is a big place (population circa 50k, more than 3x that of
>> Penzance).
>
>OK, I hadn't realised. But would it have so many tourist hotels? In
>Penzance, they had to use hotels in neighbouring towns as well.

Google Maps has thirteen hotels in the town centre, and another two on
the A47.
--
Roland Perry

On 24/04/2023 21:43, Recliner wrote:
> But I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
> usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed. Also,
> it's rare for the tour to depart from or return to London hauled by such a
> humble loco; normally it uses a big Pacific at the London ends. I wonder if
> the train was slightly shorter this year? Or perhaps a Black Five is
> enough for the 1:1000 Fenland gradients?

They have gradients in the Fens?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <u26pko$g26o$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:05 on Mon, 24 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
>usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed.

Have just read in another place that the diesel on the back was
providing assistance to a different sole kettle on the train earlier
in the week. Not apparently due to lack of tractive effort but "to
save coal".
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u26pko$g26o$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:05 on Mon, 24 Apr
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
>> usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed.
>
> Have just read in another place that the diesel on the back was
> providing assistance to a different sole kettle on the train earlier
> in the week. Not apparently due to lack of tractive effort but "to
> save coal".

I think that would go down very badly with the steam buffs on the GB.
Normally, they complain if the support diesel is even coupled to the train,
let alone assisting.

When I was on last year's, NR required the steam loco to run with reduced
power near Inverness because of the very dry conditions, so the 47 did have
to assist on the way there, which led to some grumbling from passengers
whose videos were less dramatic. Fortunately it rained overnight, so NR
relaxed the rule, and allowed the kettle to pull us back south on its own.
Everyone was very pleased to hear it working hard on the gradients on the
Highland Line.

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 08:22:57 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u26pko$g26o$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:05 on Mon, 24 Apr
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
>>> usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed.
>>
>> Have just read in another place that the diesel on the back was
>> providing assistance to a different sole kettle on the train earlier
>> in the week. Not apparently due to lack of tractive effort but "to
>> save coal".
>
>I think that would go down very badly with the steam buffs on the GB.
>Normally, they complain if the support diesel is even coupled to the train,
>let alone assisting.
>
>When I was on last year's, NR required the steam loco to run with reduced
>power near Inverness because of the very dry conditions, so the 47 did have
>to assist on the way there, which led to some grumbling from passengers
>whose videos were less dramatic. Fortunately it rained overnight, so NR
>relaxed the rule, and allowed the kettle to pull us back south on its own.
>Everyone was very pleased to hear it working hard on the gradients on the
>Highland Line.

Presumably this was a problem too back in the days of steam, so was trackside
vegetation cut back more drastically back then in order to avoid too many fires?

On 27/04/2023 09:22, Recliner wrote:
> I think that would go down very badly with the steam buffs on the GB.
> Normally, they complain if the support diesel is even coupled to the train,
> let alone assisting.

On Saturday, Vintage Trains ran one from Birmingham to Carlisle, steam
hauled from Hellifield iirc. Stop over at Carlisle and turn the engine,
then steam back down the WCML, until around Preston, where they would
run out of steam, so the diesel was put on the front.
The rules for running under the wires stop the use of coal and ash
rakes, so if the coal is at the back of the tender, they cannot rake it
forward, as the rakes are 10 foot long, and if not controlled carefully,
can go up and touch the wires while doing the raking, the same with the
fire rakes. So there was coal available, but they couldnt reach it, so
the diesel is needed when under the wires and the tender isnt full.
--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 08:22:57 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u26pko$g26o$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:05 on Mon, 24 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
>>>> usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed.
>>>
>>> Have just read in another place that the diesel on the back was
>>> providing assistance to a different sole kettle on the train earlier
>>> in the week. Not apparently due to lack of tractive effort but "to
>>> save coal".
>>
>> I think that would go down very badly with the steam buffs on the GB.
>> Normally, they complain if the support diesel is even coupled to the train,
>> let alone assisting.
>>
>> When I was on last year's, NR required the steam loco to run with reduced
>> power near Inverness because of the very dry conditions, so the 47 did have
>> to assist on the way there, which led to some grumbling from passengers
>> whose videos were less dramatic. Fortunately it rained overnight, so NR
>> relaxed the rule, and allowed the kettle to pull us back south on its own.
>> Everyone was very pleased to hear it working hard on the gradients on the
>> Highland Line.
>
> Presumably this was a problem too back in the days of steam, so was trackside
> vegetation cut back more drastically back then in order to avoid too many fires?

Yes, and also to get better traction. Steam engines, with only three driven
axles and no electronic wheel slip protection, are more affected by
slippery rails (caused by leaves on the line) than MUs. Sanding obviously
helps, but avoiding the leaves on the line in the first place is better.

The recent Salisbury crash illustrated this: people dug up photos of the
same junction in steam days, when it looked very different, with an absence
of today's verdant vegetation.

This is one of the UK's most powerful steam locos on a previous GB
struggling to get enough traction on a gradient that wouldn't trouble a
modern DMU: https://youtu.be/dJlXB965SAQ

Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
> On 27/04/2023 09:22, Recliner wrote:
>> I think that would go down very badly with the steam buffs on the GB.
>> Normally, they complain if the support diesel is even coupled to the train,
>> let alone assisting.
>
> On Saturday, Vintage Trains ran one from Birmingham to Carlisle, steam
> hauled from Hellifield iirc. Stop over at Carlisle and turn the engine,
> then steam back down the WCML, until around Preston, where they would
> run out of steam, so the diesel was put on the front.
> The rules for running under the wires stop the use of coal and ash
> rakes, so if the coal is at the back of the tender, they cannot rake it
> forward, as the rakes are 10 foot long, and if not controlled carefully,
> can go up and touch the wires while doing the raking, the same with the
> fire rakes. So there was coal available, but they couldnt reach it, so
> the diesel is needed when under the wires and the tender isnt full.

Thanks for the explanation. Steam trains run on that line quite often, so I
assume this problem was as a result of a failure to rake the coal to the
front of the tender before getting under the wires at Carlisle?

Also, why couldn't the diesel simply assist from the back, which happens
quite often with steam charters?

On 27/04/2023 10:08, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 08:22:57 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u26pko$g26o$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:05 on Mon, 24 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
>>>> usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed.
>>>
>>> Have just read in another place that the diesel on the back was
>>> providing assistance to a different sole kettle on the train earlier
>>> in the week. Not apparently due to lack of tractive effort but "to
>>> save coal".
>>
>> I think that would go down very badly with the steam buffs on the GB.
>> Normally, they complain if the support diesel is even coupled to the train,
>> let alone assisting.
>>
>> When I was on last year's, NR required the steam loco to run with reduced
>> power near Inverness because of the very dry conditions, so the 47 did have
>> to assist on the way there, which led to some grumbling from passengers
>> whose videos were less dramatic. Fortunately it rained overnight, so NR
>> relaxed the rule, and allowed the kettle to pull us back south on its own.
>> Everyone was very pleased to hear it working hard on the gradients on the
>> Highland Line.
>
> Presumably this was a problem too back in the days of steam, so was trackside
> vegetation cut back more drastically back then in order to avoid too many fires?
>

Got burnt off more often before it grew too much to be a problem!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 27/04/2023 10:43, Recliner wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 08:22:57 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u26pko$g26o$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:05 on Mon, 24 Apr
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
>>>>> usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed.
>>>>
>>>> Have just read in another place that the diesel on the back was
>>>> providing assistance to a different sole kettle on the train earlier
>>>> in the week. Not apparently due to lack of tractive effort but "to
>>>> save coal".
>>>
>>> I think that would go down very badly with the steam buffs on the GB.
>>> Normally, they complain if the support diesel is even coupled to the train,
>>> let alone assisting.
>>>
>>> When I was on last year's, NR required the steam loco to run with reduced
>>> power near Inverness because of the very dry conditions, so the 47 did have
>>> to assist on the way there, which led to some grumbling from passengers
>>> whose videos were less dramatic. Fortunately it rained overnight, so NR
>>> relaxed the rule, and allowed the kettle to pull us back south on its own.
>>> Everyone was very pleased to hear it working hard on the gradients on the
>>> Highland Line.
>>
>> Presumably this was a problem too back in the days of steam, so was trackside
>> vegetation cut back more drastically back then in order to avoid too many fires?
>
> Yes, and also to get better traction. Steam engines, with only three driven
> axles and no electronic wheel slip protection, are more affected by
> slippery rails (caused by leaves on the line) than MUs. Sanding obviously
> helps, but avoiding the leaves on the line in the first place is better.
>
> The recent Salisbury crash illustrated this: people dug up photos of the
> same junction in steam days, when it looked very different, with an absence
> of today's verdant vegetation.
>
> This is one of the UK's most powerful steam locos on a previous GB
> struggling to get enough traction on a gradient that wouldn't trouble a
> modern DMU: https://youtu.be/dJlXB965SAQ

Good driving, he was catching the slip every time. No sign of any
sanding though.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:43:14 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>This is one of the UK's most powerful steam locos on a previous GB
>struggling to get enough traction on a gradient that wouldn't trouble a
>modern DMU: https://youtu.be/dJlXB965SAQ

Lost of happy spotters on the bridge though. Thats a video they weren't
expecting to get.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:43:14 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is one of the UK's most powerful steam locos on a previous GB
>> struggling to get enough traction on a gradient that wouldn't trouble a
>> modern DMU: https://youtu.be/dJlXB965SAQ
>
> Lost of happy spotters on the bridge though. Thats a video they weren't
> expecting to get.
>

They knew it would have to work hard up the bank, and there's always the
chance it would lose traction. Either way, they get a good video.

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 08:00:06 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 24/04/2023 21:43, Recliner wrote:
>> But I was surprised to see it hauled by single Black Five for two days;
>> usually, if a Black Five is used on a GB tour, it's double-headed. Also,
>> it's rare for the tour to depart from or return to London hauled by such a
>> humble loco; normally it uses a big Pacific at the London ends. I wonder if
>> the train was slightly shorter this year? Or perhaps a Black Five is
>> enough for the 1:1000 Fenland gradients?
>
>They have gradients in the Fens?

Yes, they do. Not so much because of the need to climb hills, but in order
to cross navigable rivers with sufficient headroom. Rather than build the
entire line on a high embankment or viaduct, the line generally runs at (or
close to) ground level, and then rises to cross a river.

You can see a distinct vertical angle in the background of this photo:

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10157238803795247

Mark