On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year. They blame the
>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>
>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>
>>They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>else. I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>get away with it.
>
>The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if there
>was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to be a
>hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>
The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
bags.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:35:55 +0100
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year. They blame the
>>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>>
>>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>>reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>>
>>>They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>>else. I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>>get away with it.
>>
>>The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if there
>>was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to be a
>>hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>>
>The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>bags.

Yes I know, but they were talking it up as if there'd be checkpoints with
turnstyles and guards frisking people. All it would have been would be a
layby for lorries and I doubt anyone would have bothered stopping cars even
if they were bouncing off their suspension stops at the back or pedestrians.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year. They blame the
>>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>>
>>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>> reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>>
>>> They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>> else. I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>> get away with it.
>>
>> The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if there
>> was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to be a
>> hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>>
> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
> bags.
>

Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:35:55 +0100
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year. They blame the
>>>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>>> reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>>>
>>>> They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>>> else. I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>>> get away with it.
>>>
>>> The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if there
>>> was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to be a
>>> hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>>>
>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>> bags.
>
> Yes I know, but they were talking it up as if there'd be checkpoints with
> turnstyles and guards frisking people. All it would have been would be a
> layby for lorries and I doubt anyone would have bothered stopping cars even
> if they were bouncing off their suspension stops at the back or pedestrians.

They sometimes do between France and Switzerland. The GFA prohibits such a
border between EI and NI.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>> bags.
>>
>
>Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.

Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>> bags.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>
> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?

There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:59:07 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>> bags.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>
>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>
>There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.

I'd be surprised if quite a few wouldn't mind.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:59:07 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>>> bags.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>>
>>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>>
>> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.
>
> I'd be surprised if quite a few wouldn't mind.

Why? It's a highly democratic society, and votes tend to be against closer
EU links or alignment. Switzerland seems to have the EU relationship that
suits it best.

On 13/06/2023 09:59, Recliner wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>> bags.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>
>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>
> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.
>

In Northern Ireland it was a majority.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 11:26:44 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 13/06/2023 09:59, Recliner wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>>> bags.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>>
>>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>>
>> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.
>>
>
>In Northern Ireland it was a majority.

It is now, but was it then? I think the Nationalists were still in the minority then.

On 13/06/2023 11:30, Recliner wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 11:26:44 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 13/06/2023 09:59, Recliner wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>>>> bags.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>>>
>>>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>>>
>>> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.
>>>
>>
>> In Northern Ireland it was a majority.
>
> It is now, but was it then? I think the Nationalists were still in the minority then.

Northern Ireland voted remain, regardless of community.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 11:34:10 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 13/06/2023 11:30, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 11:26:44 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/06/2023 09:59, Recliner wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>>>>> bags.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>>>>
>>>> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In Northern Ireland it was a majority.
>>
>> It is now, but was it then? I think the Nationalists were still in the minority then.
>
>Northern Ireland voted remain, regardless of community.

Yes, that's true, as did Scotland (and London, for that matter).

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:19:41 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:59:07 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>>>> bags.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>>>
>>>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>>>
>>> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.
>>
>> I'd be surprised if quite a few wouldn't mind.
>
>Why? It's a highly democratic society, and votes tend to be against closer

So is most of europe yet they seem to view the EU as some kind of pinnacle
of democratic achievement , when in fact its far from it.

On 13.06.23 10:54, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>> bags.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>
> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?

None of the CH-EU bilatteral treaties have provisions that resemble
those of the Good Friday Agreement, so the situation is not comparable.
For the NI/IE border to function as the CH/EU border does would require
a substantial renegotiation of the GFA.

Robin

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 15:26:27 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:19:41 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:59:07 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>>>>> bags.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>>>>
>>>> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.
>>>
>>> I'd be surprised if quite a few wouldn't mind.
>>
>>Why? It's a highly democratic society, and votes tend to be against closer
>
>So is most of europe yet they seem to view the EU as some kind of pinnacle
>of democratic achievement , when in fact its far from it.

Nobody claims the EU is 'some kind of pinnacle of democratic achievement'. It has many democratic deficits and numerous
other flaws, just like the governments of most EU countries.

But, almost certainly, a referendum in every single EU state would result in an overwhelming stay, not leave, result.
That was probably the case anyway, but having witnessed the Brexit shambles, no other country would want to inflict that
self-destructive mess on itself.

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:43:17 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 15:26:27 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>So is most of europe yet they seem to view the EU as some kind of pinnacle
>>of democratic achievement , when in fact its far from it.
>
>Nobody claims the EU is 'some kind of pinnacle of democratic achievement'. It
>has many democratic deficits and numerous
>other flaws, just like the governments of most EU countries.
>
>But, almost certainly, a referendum in every single EU state would result in
>an overwhelming stay, not leave, result.
>That was probably the case anyway, but having witnessed the Brexit shambles,
>no other country would want to inflict that
>self-destructive mess on itself.

I'd keep an eye on poland. They might not vote to leave, they might well be
thrown out if they keep going the way they are.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:43:17 +0100
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 15:26:27 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> So is most of europe yet they seem to view the EU as some kind of pinnacle
>>> of democratic achievement , when in fact its far from it.
>>
>> Nobody claims the EU is 'some kind of pinnacle of democratic achievement'. It
>> has many democratic deficits and numerous
>> other flaws, just like the governments of most EU countries.
>>
>> But, almost certainly, a referendum in every single EU state would result in
>> an overwhelming stay, not leave, result.
>> That was probably the case anyway, but having witnessed the Brexit shambles,
>> no other country would want to inflict that
>> self-destructive mess on itself.
>
> I'd keep an eye on poland. They might not vote to leave, they might well be
> thrown out if they keep going the way they are.

Definitely not Poland, but the Hungarian government is busy alienating its
EU and NATO partners. But it won't be thrown out of either body.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:43:17 +0100
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 15:26:27 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> So is most of europe yet they seem to view the EU as some kind of pinnacle
>>> of democratic achievement , when in fact its far from it.
>>
>> Nobody claims the EU is 'some kind of pinnacle of democratic achievement'. It
>> has many democratic deficits and numerous
>> other flaws, just like the governments of most EU countries.
>>
>> But, almost certainly, a referendum in every single EU state would result in
>> an overwhelming stay, not leave, result.
>> That was probably the case anyway, but having witnessed the Brexit shambles,
>> no other country would want to inflict that
>> self-destructive mess on itself.
>
> I'd keep an eye on poland. They might not vote to leave, they might well be
> thrown out if they keep going the way they are.
>
>

They won’t be thrown out. They are defending Germany from a possible attack
by Russia.

On 13/06/2023 10:19, Recliner wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:59:07 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were free to
>>>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in their
>>>>>> bags.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>>>
>>>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the EU?
>>>
>>> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU citizens.
>>
>> I'd be surprised if quite a few wouldn't mind.
>
> Why? It's a highly democratic society, and votes tend to be against closer
> EU links or alignment. Switzerland seems to have the EU relationship that
> suits it best.

Some on here may know better, but from a small sampling the Swiss are
quite independent/nationalist/patriotic/protectionist in parts, even
shunning the English who try to move there for skilled work.

More importantly perhaps, from a different source, some of the Swiss are
highly opposed to their judges operating within the ECJ for the
settlement of trade disputes. Instead, the swiss government writes the
appropriate EU trade regulations into their own law, and even adopts the
relevant ECJ rulings in near-real-time. Thus they can validly
demonstrate to their voters that they have not relinquished any control.
However, they have lost some of their ability to influence the EU
regulations, and still have to write them into their law in order that
their economy can benefit from the free trade.

That is what I have been told, and read sometimes, but maybe this is a
distorted picture?

I expect that there are good informal, or even formal, channels in which
the swiss institutions express their views on future EU regulations, but
the swiss people are not part of the main EU ministerial and
parliamentary processes by which these regulations are voted on.

On 17.06.23 20:27, Alan Jones wrote:
> On 13/06/2023 10:19, Recliner wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:59:07 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:26:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> The hard/soft border applies to trade. The CTA applies to freedom of
>>>>>>> movement of people. Pre-EU there were customs posts all along the
>>>>>>> border but only goods were liable to restriction; people were
>>>>>>> free to
>>>>>>> walk across with no documentation unlike sometimes the goods in
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> bags.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, much like the Switzerland-EU borders today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are the swiss citizens up in arms about their border with the
>>>>> EU?
>>>>
>>>> There isn't a large Swiss minority fervently desiring to be EU
>>>> citizens.
>>>
>>> I'd be surprised if quite a few wouldn't mind.
>>
>> Why?  It's a highly democratic society, and votes tend to be against
>> closer
>> EU links or alignment. Switzerland seems to have the EU relationship that
>> suits it best.
>
> Some on here may know better, but from a small sampling the Swiss are
> quite independent/nationalist/patriotic/protectionist in parts, even
> shunning the English who try to move there for skilled work.

Under the bilateral EU treaties they can't prevent EU nationals from
coming to CH for work, but due to Brexit, they can (and do) make it much
harder for UK nationals to get a residence permit. This was a big
motivator for me to push the paperwork to get my hands on an Irish
passport (thanks to my Grandmother).

> More importantly perhaps, from a different source, some of the Swiss are
> highly opposed to their judges operating within the ECJ for the
> settlement of trade disputes. Instead, the swiss government writes the
> appropriate EU trade regulations into their own law, and even adopts the
> relevant ECJ rulings in near-real-time. Thus they can validly
> demonstrate to their voters that they have not relinquished any control.
> However, they have lost some of their ability to influence the EU
> regulations, and still have to write them into their law in order that
> their economy can benefit from the free trade.
>
> That is what I have been told, and read sometimes, but maybe this is a
> distorted picture?

There are occasional hiccups in the system where the Swiss want to do
something the EU doesn't want them to do. In particular there have been
referenda in Switzerland that, if implimented as the SVP[1] types
intend, would effectively violate the bilateral treaties with the EU.
There have been various fudges around the edge to prevent the EU
relationship from falling appart, but the SVP types are generally not happy.

> I expect that there are good informal, or even formal, channels in which
> the swiss institutions express their views on future EU regulations, but
> the swiss people are not part of the main EU ministerial and
> parliamentary processes by which these regulations are voted on.

It's what Norway describes as government-by-fax. The democratic
institutions of the EU decide what is to happen, and they inform the
EEA/CH countries what must be done.

[1] Schweizerische Volkspartei or Swiss People's Party. The socially
conservative most right wing party that dabbles in racism. See, for
example, political campaign posters like
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/Spp-poster.jpg

Robin

In message <u6mj3r$1kahm$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:51 on Sun, 18 Jun
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:

>> I expect that there are good informal, or even formal, channels in
>>which the swiss institutions express their views on future EU
>>regulations, but the swiss people are not part of the main EU
>>ministerial and parliamentary processes by which these regulations
>>are voted on.
>
>It's what Norway describes as government-by-fax. The democratic
>institutions of the EU decide what is to happen, and they inform the
>EEA/CH countries what must be done.

Up to a point. Most of the EU decision-making is done in open
consultations with the Commission, and then it moves to a much
more open process in their Parliament than we have in Westminster.

Anyone can get involved in those discussions (American industry is one
of the biggest lobbying groups) as can people from Norway. But I agree
that I never saw many Swiss participating.
--
Roland Perry

On 18.06.23 14:32, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u6mj3r$1kahm$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:51 on Sun, 18 Jun
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>
>>> I expect that there are good informal, or even formal, channels in
>>> which  the swiss institutions express their views on future EU
>>> regulations, but  the swiss people are not part of the main EU
>>> ministerial and  parliamentary processes by which these regulations
>>> are voted on.
>>
>> It's what Norway describes as government-by-fax. The democratic
>> institutions of the EU decide what is to happen, and they inform the
>> EEA/CH countries what must be done.
>
> Up to a point. Most of the EU decision-making is done in open
> consultations with the Commission, and then it moves to a much
> more open process in their Parliament than we have in Westminster.

The commission being made up of representatives fo the democartically
elected governments of the member states, in much the same way the
Cabinet is appointed in the UK, domestically. (But I take your point.)

> Anyone can get involved in those discussions (American industry is one
> of the biggest lobbying groups) as can people from Norway. But I agree
> that I never saw many Swiss participating.

The Swiss tend to not like getting involved in anything outside of their
borders. Today was referendum day, including a third attempt by the SVP
to get rid of the emergency powers the federal government used to enable
COVID restrictions. For a third time the people voted that the measures
should remain.

Robin

In message <u6nchb$1mr84$5@dont-email.me>, at 18:48:43 on Sun, 18 Jun
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 18.06.23 14:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <u6mj3r$1kahm$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:51 on Sun, 18 Jun
>>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I expect that there are good informal, or even formal, channels in
>>>>which  the swiss institutions express their views on future EU
>>>>regulations, but  the swiss people are not part of the main EU
>>>>ministerial and  parliamentary processes by which these regulations
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's what Norway describes as government-by-fax. The democratic
>>>institutions of the EU decide what is to happen, and they inform the
>>>EEA/CH countries what must be done.

>> Up to a point. Most of the EU decision-making is done in open
>>consultations with the Commission, and then it moves to a much
>> more open process in their Parliament than we have in Westminster.
>
>The commission being made up of representatives fo the democartically
>elected governments of the member states, in much the same way the
>Cabinet is appointed in the UK, domestically. (But I take your point.)

The Commissioners are, but they have huge departments which organise
things on their behalf. And the majority of policy emerges from the
processes which ensue.

>> Anyone can get involved in those discussions (American industry is
>>one of the biggest lobbying groups) as can people from Norway. But I
>>agree that I never saw many Swiss participating.
>
>The Swiss tend to not like getting involved in anything outside of
>their borders.

That's their problem. It doesn't affect Norway's ability to be involved
in EU policy making.

--
Roland Perry