Putting environmental concerns to one side for a moment...the highlight of the NEC bike show was the Langen 250. Admirable design and engineering, 75bhp - 114kg - reed valve - indirect fuel injected - 250cc - 2T v-twin,
At least for those who experienced the RD125/250/400 induction, probably not Honda owners.
As close to a road going TZ250 as I can imagine. Bit more reliable, fewer rebuilds.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmXdNCc4

Road test by Emma Franklin here:
https://youtu.be/jMWAVKWliXg

Other nice things were
GSXR1000 Phantom - if I was buying a new sprotbike today that would be it and no monstrosity silencer
GSX-S1000 (and Katana variant) - I could happily live with. £11k? bargain
GSX-1000GT - in the OTC? I was a shoe-in! Another small silencer, although the tiny single headlight on low beam is stupid/annoying, making aux lights an immediate fit.
Wallet was twitching... until we got to accessories. Another case of a manufacturer refusing to supply a rear carrier, WTF guys.
Then we got to the discovery that panniers are not OE, on this "sports tourer"? Fuck off. £700 for the cases, "oh you also need a £200 fitting kit that we didn't built into the bike". Fuck right off. They can't play dumb, Suzuki had this figured out 15 years ago with the Bandit GT.
--
Hog
2020 SD-R '89 R100RS '96 Bastard12
BOB#5 OSOS#31 COFF#22 BOTAFOT#122

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:24:08 -0800 (PST), Hog <york996@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Putting environmental concerns to one side for a moment...the highlight of the NEC bike show was the Langen 250. Admirable design and engineering, 75bhp - 114kg - reed valve - indirect fuel injected - 250cc - 2T v-twin,
>At least for those who experienced the RD125/250/400 induction, probably not Honda owners.
>As close to a road going TZ250 as I can imagine. Bit more reliable, fewer rebuilds.
>https://flic.kr/s/aHsmXdNCc4
>
>Road test by Emma Franklin here:
>https://youtu.be/jMWAVKWliXg

I say! I knew nothing about that - quietly impressed
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:22:06 AM UTC, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:24:08 -0800 (PST), Hog <yor...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Putting environmental concerns to one side for a moment...the highlight of the NEC bike show was the Langen 250. Admirable design and engineering, 75bhp - 114kg - reed valve - indirect fuel injected - 250cc - 2T v-twin,
> >At least for those who experienced the RD125/250/400 induction, probably not Honda owners.
> >As close to a road going TZ250 as I can imagine. Bit more reliable, fewer rebuilds.
> >https://flic.kr/s/aHsmXdNCc4
> >
> >Road test by Emma Franklin here:
> >https://youtu.be/jMWAVKWliXg
> I say! I knew nothing about that - quietly impressed

"Like". That's rather bloody lovely that. Not hugely dis-similar (barring the obvious) to that eighties yam offering - sdr200 iirc - a right naked framed whippet.

On 08/12/2021 19:24, Hog wrote:
> Putting environmental concerns to one side for a moment...the highlight of the NEC bike show was the Langen 250. Admirable design and engineering, 75bhp - 114kg - reed valve - indirect fuel injected - 250cc - 2T v-twin,
> At least for those who experienced the RD125/250/400 induction, probably not Honda owners.
> As close to a road going TZ250 as I can imagine. Bit more reliable, fewer rebuilds.
> https://flic.kr/s/aHsmXdNCc4

Been watching the development of that for a while and does look rather
wonderful.

> Road test by Emma Franklin here:
> https://youtu.be/jMWAVKWliXg

I'm looking forward to seeing it have a proper road test, perhaps by
Chris at Bike World

> Other nice things were
> GSXR1000 Phantom - if I was buying a new sprotbike today that would be it and no monstrosity silencer
> GSX-S1000 (and Katana variant) - I could happily live with. £11k? bargain
> GSX-1000GT - in the OTC? I was a shoe-in! Another small silencer, although the tiny single headlight on low beam is stupid/annoying, making aux lights an immediate fit.
> Wallet was twitching... until we got to accessories. Another case of a manufacturer refusing to supply a rear carrier, WTF guys.
> Then we got to the discovery that panniers are not OE, on this "sports tourer"? Fuck off. £700 for the cases, "oh you also need a £200 fitting kit that we didn't built into the bike". Fuck right off. They can't play dumb, Suzuki had this figured out 15 years ago with the Bandit GT.

The whole cost of luggage thing astonishes me. When I looked at the
Harley Pan America, there was a throw-away statement about the luggage
set being "about 2 grand, which is pretty much what you expect to pay
these days..". Err, no it isn't!

Did you have any thoughts on the Nortons? Anking for a friend...

--
Gyp

Champ wrote:
> Hog wrote:
> >Putting environmental concerns to one side for a moment...the highlight
> >of the NEC bike show was the Langen 250. Admirable design and engineering, 75bhp - 114kg - reed valve - indirect fuel injected - 250cc - 2T v-twin,
>
> I say! I knew nothing about that - quietly impressed

What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of eye-wateringl overpriced oddities. And now, faced with a complete ban on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a fucking two-stroke. It makes even less sense than anything Norton has cranked out, and that's saying something.

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:54:51 PM UTC, ogden wrote:

> What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of eye-wateringl
> overpriced oddities. And now, faced with a complete ban on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a fucking two-stroke. It makes
> even less sense than anything Norton has cranked out, and that's saying something.

Pretty much what I thought. Talk about tone-deaf.

--
WUN

ogden wrote:

> What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception
> of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of
> eye-wateringl overpriced oddities. And now, faced with a complete ban
> on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a
> fucking two-stroke. It makes even less sense than anything Norton has
> cranked out, and that's saying something.

You know, I still struggle with ogden as being the VoR - yet here he is
once again...

--
Chris

Hog wrote:

> GSX-1000GT - in the OTC? I was
> a shoe-in! Another small silencer, although the tiny single headlight
> on low beam is stupid/annoying, making aux lights an immediate fit.
> Wallet was twitching... until we got to accessories. Another case of
> a manufacturer refusing to supply a rear carrier, WTF guys. Then we
> got to the discovery that panniers are not OE, on this "sports
> tourer"? Fuck off. £700 for the cases, "oh you also need a £200
> fitting kit that we didn't built into the bike". Fuck right off. They
> can't play dumb, Suzuki had this figured out 15 years ago with the
> Bandit GT.

Hmmm...I think it's fair play to offer a sports-tourer with or without
luggage. The Z1000SX is £1100 more for the Tourer than the base model
so £900 for the GT isn't *that* bad.

Plus, there are many after-market luggage options to suit all budgets,
as well you know!

--
Chris

On Thursday, 9 December 2021 at 13:54:51 UTC, ogden wrote:
> Champ wrote:
> > Hog wrote:
> > >Putting environmental concerns to one side for a moment...the highlight
> > >of the NEC bike show was the Langen 250. Admirable design and engineering, 75bhp - 114kg - reed valve - indirect fuel injected - 250cc - 2T v-twin,
> >
> > I say! I knew nothing about that - quietly impressed
> What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of eye-wateringl overpriced oddities. And now, faced with a complete ban on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a fucking two-stroke. It makes even less sense than anything Norton has cranked out, and that's saying something.

The last 2T road bike I rode belonged to you.
It's on sale now not 2035 and petrol will be available for many years beyond. Price seems normal-ish for a limited run hand built motorcycle and it's unlike anything else I know of. It's emissions are not silly, as I expect the TZ is. I expect the Smiles/Mile are pretty exceptional. I'd have it over a Kawasaki H2.
2T hasn't disappeared, with the KTM TPI. Also indirect injection, but into the transfer port rather than upstream of the reed valve.

There seems to be a market. Also interesting, Crighton CR700W rotary track bikes at £85k and 25 being built initially.
--
Hog
2020 SD-R '89 R100RS '96 Bastard12
BOB#5 OSOS#31 COFF#22 BOTAFOT#122

On Thursday, 9 December 2021 at 15:03:46 UTC, WUN wrote:
> On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:54:51 PM UTC, ogden wrote:
>
> > What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of eye-wateringl
> > overpriced oddities. And now, faced with a complete ban on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a fucking two-stroke. It makes
> > even less sense than anything Norton has cranked out, and that's saying something.
> Pretty much what I thought. Talk about tone-deaf.

28k plus VAT...

Nice enough looking except for the headlight[1], not sure what would be better though.
Does look like some of the recent CCMs, not that surprising when it's the same bloke
behind the design and the same limited numbers approach. Wonder if he fell out with
the owners of CCM?

How many of these 250s will get used? The website's certainly aimed at nostalgia:
'bringing back the ton-up days'; those were I think in the early 60s so anyone old
enough to have 'been there' probably shouldn't be riding this bike...

Or is the game to get deposits etc. and go pop with a full order book? 100 bikes.

Not really a fan if I'm honest.

[1] And the 'detailing in 24carat gold' Honestly...

Hog wrote:
> ogden wrote:
> > What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of eye-wateringl overpriced oddities. And now, faced with a complete ban on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a fucking two-stroke.. It makes even less sense than anything Norton has cranked out, and that's saying something.

> The last 2T road bike I rode belonged to you.

Same here. I'm still racing one.

> It's on sale now not 2035 and petrol will be available for many years beyond. Price seems normal-ish for a limited run hand built motorcycle and it's unlike anything else I know of.

It's an expensive folly, pure and simple.

> It's emissions are not silly, as I expect the TZ is. I expect the Smiles/Mile are pretty exceptional. I'd have it over a Kawasaki H2.
> 2T hasn't disappeared, with the KTM TPI. Also indirect injection, but into the transfer port rather than upstream of the reed valve.
>
> There seems to be a market. Also interesting, Crighton CR700W rotary track bikes at £85k and 25 being built initially.

Another folly, for misty-eyed rose-tinted specs wearers who never got over the last time Norton went down the toilet.

On Thursday, 9 December 2021 at 16:56:31 UTC, ogden wrote:
> Hog wrote:

> > There seems to be a market. Also interesting, Crighton CR700W rotary track bikes at £85k and 25 being built initially.
> Another folly, for misty-eyed rose-tinted specs wearers who never got over the last time Norton went down the toilet.

Of course there's nothing wrong with "follies". What better way to spunk excess cash. As you know...

I wouldn't lump Crighton with the 140bhp Norton, pretty exciting by all accounts. There seems to be a number of folk who truck such 2 and 4 wheeled follies around various circuits in the world. See Corsa Clienti, where members pay Ferrari $10-15k a day for track time in addition to the undisclosed, no doubt 7+ figure, membership fee.
--
Hog
2020 SD-R '89 R100RS '96 Bastard12
BOB#5 OSOS#31 COFF#22 BOTAFOT#122

On 09/12/2021 13:54, ogden wrote:
> Champ wrote:
>> Hog wrote:
>>> Putting environmental concerns to one side for a moment...the highlight
>>> of the NEC bike show was the Langen 250. Admirable design and engineering, 75bhp - 114kg - reed valve - indirect fuel injected - 250cc - 2T v-twin,
>>
>> I say! I knew nothing about that - quietly impressed
>
> What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of eye-wateringl overpriced oddities. And now, faced with a complete ban on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a fucking two-stroke. It makes even less sense than anything Norton has cranked out, and that's saying something.

They have 15 years to cash in on it, and then go bust.

Small manufacturers are going to be sitting on their hands and waiting
for the big boys to come up with something that they can either licence
or copy. Triumph are one of the investors, their electric bike project
sounds very impressive but has yet to surface. However, it's a very
integrated design, so the swappable battery concept (Honda et al) will
not apply. I suppose there will be a shakedown of sorts, integrated v
swappable, fast charge v overnight, whatever, and of course IC bikes and
cars will still be running after the sale of new IC bikes and cars is
banned. Only the abolition of petrol will change that.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 08:56:30 -0800 (PST), ogden <eldaifo@gmail.com>
wrote:

>It's an expensive folly, pure and simple.

You say that like it's a bad thing.
--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Friday, 10 December 2021 at 02:52:49 UTC, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 09/12/2021 13:54, ogden wrote:
> > Champ wrote:
> >> Hog wrote:
> >>> Putting environmental concerns to one side for a moment...the highlight
> >>> of the NEC bike show was the Langen 250. Admirable design and engineering, 75bhp - 114kg - reed valve - indirect fuel injected - 250cc - 2T v-twin,
> >>
> >> I say! I knew nothing about that - quietly impressed
> >
> > What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of eye-wateringl overpriced oddities. And now, faced with a complete ban on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a fucking two-stroke.. It makes even less sense than anything Norton has cranked out, and that's saying something.
> They have 15 years to cash in on it, and then go bust.
>
> Small manufacturers are going to be sitting on their hands and waiting
> for the big boys to come up with something that they can either licence
> or copy. Triumph are one of the investors, their electric bike project
> sounds very impressive but has yet to surface. However, it's a very
> integrated design, so the swappable battery concept (Honda et al) will
> not apply. I suppose there will be a shakedown of sorts, integrated v
> swappable, fast charge v overnight, whatever, and of course IC bikes and
> cars will still be running after the sale of new IC bikes and cars is
> banned. Only the abolition of petrol will change that.

The Triumph electric bike package, frame and battery, was on show at NEC

Hopefully common sense (1) will prevail and the synthesis of fuel using equitorial solar energy in any of a dozen potential nations will preval, with those hybrid (range extended) non plug in vehicles, in a carbon neutral or negative cycle. Hydrogen is TMFH.

(1) yes I know...
--
Hog
2020 SD-R '89 R100RS '96 Bastard12
BOB#5 OSOS#31 COFF#22 BOTAFOT#122

On 10/12/2021 15:30, Hog wrote:
> On Friday, 10 December 2021 at 02:52:49 UTC, Mike Fleming wrote:
>>
>> Small manufacturers are going to be sitting on their hands and waiting
>> for the big boys to come up with something that they can either licence
>> or copy. Triumph are one of the investors, their electric bike project
>> sounds very impressive but has yet to surface. However, it's a very
>> integrated design, so the swappable battery concept (Honda et al) will
>> not apply. I suppose there will be a shakedown of sorts, integrated v
>> swappable, fast charge v overnight, whatever, and of course IC bikes and
>> cars will still be running after the sale of new IC bikes and cars is
>> banned. Only the abolition of petrol will change that.
>
> The Triumph electric bike package, frame and battery, was on show at NEC

They've had it for a little while now.
https://www.triumphmotorcycles.co.uk/inside-triumph/project-triumph-te-1

I was rather hoping that some way further on, they'd have managed to
stick some wheels on.

> Hopefully common sense (1) will prevail and the synthesis of fuel using equitorial solar energy in any of a dozen potential nations will preval, with those hybrid (range extended) non plug in vehicles, in a carbon neutral or negative cycle. Hydrogen is TMFH.
>
> (1) yes I know...

You might need to settle for countries somewhere between (or not too far
outside) the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. Equatorial countries:
Ecuador, Columbia, Brazil, Gabon, Congo, Doctor Congo, Uganda, Kenya,
Somalia, Maldives, Indonesia, Kiribati, Sao Tome and Principe (who they?
Ed). Good luck finding a stable and fairly uncorrupt regime amongst that
lot.

On Friday, 10 December 2021 at 16:34:41 UTC, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 15:30, Hog wrote:

> and the synthesis of fuel using equitorial solar energy in any of a dozen potential nations will preval, with those hybrid (range extended) non plug in vehicles, in a carbon neutral or negative cycle. Hydrogen is TMFH.
> >
> > (1) yes I know...
> You might need to settle for countries somewhere between (or not too far
> outside) the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. Equatorial countries:
> Ecuador, Columbia, Brazil, Gabon, Congo, Doctor Congo, Uganda, Kenya,
> Somalia, Maldives, Indonesia, Kiribati, Sao Tome and Principe (who they?
> Ed). Good luck finding a stable and fairly uncorrupt regime amongst that
> lot.

More than enough sunshine falls just in the Southern part of Morocco (250K sq/km) to provide enough energy (sources) for the entire planet. The Sahara is an enormous potential resource at 9M sq/km, as is the Saudi Arabian desert, paradoxically at 1.8M sq/km. We do not have an energy crisis, we have a conversion and distribution problem.
--
Hog
2020 SD-R '89 R100RS '96 Bastard12
BOB#5 OSOS#31 COFF#22 BOTAFOT#122

On Friday, 10 December 2021 at 15:30:55 UTC, Hog wrote:

> Hopefully common sense (1) will prevail and the synthesis of fuel using equitorial solar energy in any of a dozen potential nations will preval, with those hybrid (range extended) non plug in vehicles, in a carbon neutral or negative cycle. Hydrogen is TMFH.

TMFH? Too much fucking hype?

I think it has its place (aircraft, lorries possibly agricultural vehicles, maybe home heating
until other technologies take over) but for cars? No.

I can see an argument of Hydrogen for motorcycles, at least until we get higher energy
density battery technologies though.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 05:54:50 -0800 (PST), ogden <eldaifo@gmail.com>
wrote:

>What is it with British manufacturers though? With the sole exception of Triumph, they've cranked out nothing but small production runs of eye-wateringl overpriced oddities.

At a guess, they're petrol-head enthusiasts who don't have and would
never get the cash resources to to get full type approval, then set up
a multimillion-pound factory that could churn out cheaper models using
economies of scale, so they have to recoup the much higher production
costs and development overheads by going for the "exotic bespoke"
market. Hence, probably, the Hipster style of this one. I wouldn't be
surprised if they really wanted to produce a sports bike.

I suppose they could go into partnership with the likes of Triumph to
use a corner of their resources, but still a huge amount of tooling
required, even if the bigger partner had reserve capacity and was
willing to let them rent their facilities. And that still doesn't
cover the TA costs. and would take away their independence against a
potential competitor.

> And now, faced with a complete ban on internal combustion engines, they've sunk money into developing a fucking two-stroke.

Make hay while the sun shines, Sunshine!

> It makes even less sense than anything Norton has cranked out, and that's saying something.

Well, yes. It makes no sense to own or operate any motor vehicle other
than the most basic, economical transport that can barely exceed the
national speed limit. Yet we do.

--

-Pip

On Friday, 10 December 2021 at 17:17:17 UTC, stephen...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 10 December 2021 at 15:30:55 UTC, Hog wrote:
>
> > Hopefully common sense (1) will prevail and the synthesis of fuel using equitorial solar energy in any of a dozen potential nations will preval, with those hybrid (range extended) non plug in vehicles, in a carbon neutral or negative cycle. Hydrogen is TMFH.
> TMFH? Too much fucking hype?
>
> I think it has its place (aircraft, lorries possibly agricultural vehicles, maybe home heating
> until other technologies take over) but for cars? No.
>
> I can see an argument of Hydrogen for motorcycles, at least until we get higher energy
> density battery technologies though.

Too much fucking hassle.
Re cryogenic transport and storage, something I've got a lot of history with.

You don't have to be a physicist to understand the problems and limitations of hydrogen as a road fuel. The energy content by volume in the gaseous phase is low and liquid storage is challenging. Boiling point of LPG 231.15K Hydrogen 20.28K. Almost as tricky as Helium with added fun on spontaneous release.

It's not practical to use on a motorbike as it can only be stored as a gas, the quantity/range is insufficient. It's better in a car, but still substandard. Practical in trucks and public service vehicles that can carry large high pressure (700 Bar) tanks (that's still gas not liquid).

Cryogenic storage and transfer could be applied to large aircraft I guess, as long as takeoff is soon after fuelling. Ships could use it as a fuel. Thing is, a synthetic hydrocarbon fuel would just be so much easier and more useful.

The other inconvenient truth is that Li-xxx batteries are a *terrible* solution for road transport.

Hydrogen could replace natural gas, although the gas network would require significant re-engineering. The gas would be produced by electrolysis, but in most non industrial applications why on earth would we not just use the electricity directly? with nuclear energy electricity production is effectively unlimited and cheap to produce. Leaving hydrogen in an industrial feedstock/fuel niche.

On 14/12/2021 08:30, Hog wrote:
> On Friday, 10 December 2021 at 17:17:17 UTC, stephen...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, 10 December 2021 at 15:30:55 UTC, Hog wrote:
>>
>>> Hopefully common sense (1) will prevail and the synthesis of fuel using equitorial solar energy in any of a dozen potential nations will preval, with those hybrid (range extended) non plug in vehicles, in a carbon neutral or negative cycle. Hydrogen is TMFH.
>> TMFH? Too much fucking hype?
>>
>> I think it has its place (aircraft, lorries possibly agricultural vehicles, maybe home heating
>> until other technologies take over) but for cars? No.
>>
>> I can see an argument of Hydrogen for motorcycles, at least until we get higher energy
>> density battery technologies though.
>
> Too much fucking hassle.
> Re cryogenic transport and storage, something I've got a lot of history with.
>
> You don't have to be a physicist to understand the problems and limitations of hydrogen as a road fuel. The energy content by volume in the gaseous phase is low and liquid storage is challenging. Boiling point of LPG 231.15K Hydrogen 20.28K. Almost as tricky as Helium with added fun on spontaneous release.
>
> It's not practical to use on a motorbike as it can only be stored as a gas, the quantity/range is insufficient. It's better in a car, but still substandard. Practical in trucks and public service vehicles that can carry large high pressure (700 Bar) tanks (that's still gas not liquid).
>

And n option for aeroplanes, apparantly.

> Cryogenic storage and transfer could be applied to large aircraft I guess, as long as takeoff is soon after fuelling. Ships could use it as a fuel. Thing is, a synthetic hydrocarbon fuel would just be so much easier and more useful.
>

Airbus are looking at it.
https://www.airbus.com/en/innovation/zero-emission/hydrogen/zeroe

> The other inconvenient truth is that Li-xxx batteries are a *terrible* solution for road transport.
>
> Hydrogen could replace natural gas, although the gas network would require significant re-engineering. The gas would be produced by electrolysis, but in most non industrial applications why on earth would we not just use the electricity directly? with nuclear energy electricity production is effectively unlimited and cheap to produce. Leaving hydrogen in an industrial feedstock/fuel niche.

I've never enjoyed cooking on electric, just not as controlable.

And unless we work out what to do with our current nuclear polution, I'm
not a fan of carrying on with it. Watching Simon Reeves report from
Seascale recently only re-inforced my opion. The clean up is horrific.

>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Tuesday, 14 December 2021 at 08:30:47 UTC, Hog wrote:
<snip>

I think we *mostly* agreed, but you from a position of experience with gas storage- which explains why
my question about motorcycles was naive.
> Cryogenic storage and transfer could be applied to large aircraft I guess, as long as takeoff is soon after fuelling. Ships could use it as a fuel. Thing is, a synthetic hydrocarbon fuel would just be so much easier and more useful.

Isn't a synthetic hydrocarbon going to have emission issues?

> The other inconvenient truth is that Li-xxx batteries are a *terrible* solution for road transport.

Ah, this I don't agree with. I've about five years experience of owning BEVs and for more than
90% of my usage it's no issue at all. I've got a range of 'about' 100 miles and have only used
public chargers maybe three or four times through need (but I accept that not everyone has
off-road parking suitable for a private charger). Average journey lengths in the UK are under
ten miles and weekly distance driven is around 140 miles (on average) so a vehicle with range
of 100 miles would (generally) only need charging a couple of times in an average week.

Admittedly I have other vehicles that I use on longer journeys but the bulk of journeys are short.

Public charging infrastructure does need some work, as does our expectation that life just goes
on with minimal impact.

> Hydrogen could replace natural gas, although the gas network would require significant re-engineering. The gas would be produced by electrolysis, but in most non industrial applications why on earth would we not just use the electricity directly? with nuclear energy electricity production is effectively unlimited and cheap to produce. Leaving hydrogen in an industrial feedstock/fuel niche.

I'd also agree here, using electricity to split hydrogen off and then extracting energy from hydrogen
seems likely to be inefficient... unless the transport of hydrogen is significantly more efficient than
the transport of electricity (I've read that electric power losses may be around 10% from generator to
socket).

Hog <york996@gmail.com> wrote in
news:39d07054-2829-4065-8c32-51d11ad9748an@googlegroups.com:

> Hydrogen could replace natural gas, although the gas network would
> require significant re-engineering. The gas would be produced by
> electrolysis, but in most non industrial applications why on earth
> would we not just use the electricity directly? with nuclear energy
> electricity production is effectively unlimited and cheap to produce.
> Leaving hydrogen in an industrial feedstock/fuel niche.

what I have read is that as an interim measure, hydrogen could be added to
natural gas in the existing infrastructure.

the hydrogen could be a way to store the off peak energy from wind turbines

I have also read somewhere about the solar arrays used in places like Qatar
for desalination of water being repurposed or expanded to make hydrogen.
They are used to shipping LNG around the world so would it be that more
complex to ship hydrogen to Milford Haven to be pumped into the new(ish)
pipeline across Mid Wales to Tewkesbury?

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 09:56:55 +0000, YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk>
wrote:

>And unless we work out what to do with our current nuclear polution, I'm
>not a fan of carrying on with it. Watching Simon Reeves report from
>Seascale recently only re-inforced my opion. The clean up is horrific.

<heavy sarcasm>
Yeah, cos dealing with the effect of the other energy solutions we've
used thus far is *really* simple, isn't it?

--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 14/12/2021 14:56, Champ wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 09:56:55 +0000, YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> And unless we work out what to do with our current nuclear polution, I'm
>> not a fan of carrying on with it. Watching Simon Reeves report from
>> Seascale recently only re-inforced my opion. The clean up is horrific.
>
> <heavy sarcasm>
> Yeah, cos dealing with the effect of the other energy solutions we've
> used thus far is *really* simple, isn't it?
>
>

Sarcasm accepted.

I think we have had this discussion before :-)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/