Ive had five days out since the bank holiday weekend, inclusive.
27 May to Saltaire
28 May to Southend
29 May to Scarborough
6 June to Hastings
8 June to Folkestone
All from Leicester
27 May was an opportunity to travel on Northern's new(ish) trains.
Returning, an hour at Sheffield gave me time to spot some trams
outside the station
28 May the 07.53 from Leicester stood at the St Pancras home for a few
minutes before the guard apologised and said that we were waiting for
a platform because we'd arrived 15 minutes early. Trainsplit's
itinerary had me changing at Stratford but I changed at Liverpool
Street instead. Returning, 1705 from Southend, three couples joined
the train at Westcliff and sat near me. One of the men put his hand in
a carrier bag and pulled out bottles of beer which he distributed to
the other men, one of whom used the openings in a ceiling grill as a
bottle opener. The women got cans of something with vodka in.
29 May train arrives at York in time for the 10.03 TPE but its been
cancelled, no explanation. Enquiry counter says to go on the 11.03.
This arrives on time, everone piles on but it sits at the platform for
40 minutes, during which time the train is shut down and rebooted.
No-one walks through or uses the tannoy to explain or apologise. TPE's
new trains have screens which, among other things, tell you that the
train is late and to use Delay Repay, which I did. TPE refunded the
£13.70 fare within a few days, very efficient.
Returning, I arrived at York to learn that the 19.44 Cross Country has
also been cancelled although it has arrived on time. THere might have
been an announcement about this but the accoustics and PA at York are
so awful that I can't make out what is being said. At the Enquiry
Counter the LNER official writes a pass for me to travel on the 20.22
to London and change to the 22.00 to Leicester, which I did, arriving
at Leicester 11 minutues later than I should have done, a good result.
The pass wasn't needed and the time at Peterborough allowed me to
experience the posh waiting rooms, or one of them, on the new
platforms. They have some very fancy information screens there.
6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
look back before I could find out where to go. Arrived at Ashford to
find that Southern's 12.25 to Eastbourne was a bus so arrived about 50
minutes late. Southern are still processing the claim. The return used
Southeastern's 17.44 and a change to Thameslink at London Bridge, so a
grand tour round.On the 200.04 Kettering/Market Harborough stopper the
guard announced that there was a party on the train who had lost one
of their number. He wanted to re-assure them that it was all right
because their friend had got on the express at St Pancras (by mistake)
and would be waiting for them at Leicester.
8 June, another trip on HS1. On the return (17.58) a party got on at
Folkestone West and started drinking and shouting at each other,
cheerfully, not angriliy. Fortunately, they got off at Stratford.

Apart from the cancellations timekeeping was quite good. The weather
was good and all the air conditioning worked.

In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29 on
Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:

>6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>look back before I could find out where to go.

That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
tracks are in the way.

I think a barrow crossing there is a bit ambitious :)
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 11:44:06 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29 on
>Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>
>>6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>look back before I could find out where to go.
>
>That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
>MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
>tracks are in the way.
>
>I think a barrow crossing there is a bit ambitious :)

Yup!

St Pancras has five platform groups, each with distinctly different services:

West mezzanine, platforms 1-4, EMR including Luton Airport Express; first floor ticket barriers

Central mezzanine, platforms 5-10, Eurostar; ground level check-in and exit

Eastern mezzanine, platforms 11-13, Southeastern High speed (Javelin); first floor ticket barriers

Northern basement, platforms A and B, Thameslink, ground floor ticket barriers

Southern basement, platforms 1 and 2, LU; subway level ticket barriers.

The routes between all five services are via the long ground level shopping concourse. It wouldn't make sense to
signpost all the other services individually from all the platform groups. In addition, there are many more platforms
next door in and under Kings Cross, which can be access across the street or via the two subways.

Here's some examples of the signage in the concourse:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720309118122

On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29 on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>
>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>
> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar tracks are in the way.

In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far as I know. If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube you got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the Eurostar and MML platforms. The MML platforms, of course, have been shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.

> I think a barrow crossing there is a bit ambitious :)

Yes, but a footbridge over the Eurostar tracks would surely be feasible and convenient for those switching between Midland Mainline and SE trains platforms. Likewise a tunnel from the Thameslink platforms to tube ticket halls (but I'm told a river runs through it). The new St.Pancras is best thought of as a nice shopping centre with a few railway stations scattered around the edge.

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29 on
>> Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>
>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>>
>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
>> MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
>> tracks are in the way.
>
> In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored the
> barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far as I
> know. If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube you
> got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the
> Eurostar and MML platforms. The MML platforms, of course, have been
> shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.
>
>> I think a barrow crossing there is a bit ambitious :)
>
> Yes, but a footbridge over the Eurostar tracks would surely be feasible
> and convenient for those switching between Midland Mainline and SE trains
> platforms. Likewise a tunnel from the Thameslink platforms to tube ticket
> halls (but I'm told a river runs through it). The new St.Pancras is best
> thought of as a nice shopping centre with a few railway stations scattered around the edge.
>

How is a footbridge much different to going down the MML escalator, turning
through 180 degrees and then taking the route past the ticket office in the
direction of Kings Cross and then up the South Eastern platforms? Think of
it as an under bridge rather than an over bridge.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 14:30:41 +0100, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:

>On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29 on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>
>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>>
>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar tracks are in the way.

It was the undercroft, not the basement.

>
>In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far as I know.

> If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube you got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the Eurostar and MML platforms.

And Southeastern, though both the MML and SE platforms are outside the old Barlow shed.

> The MML platforms, of course, have been shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.

Also to fit in more and longer platforms. The flat-roofed northern extension is much wider and longer than the old
arched shed.

>
>> I think a barrow crossing there is a bit ambitious :)
>
>Yes, but a footbridge over the Eurostar tracks would surely be feasible and convenient for those switching between Midland Mainline and SE trains platforms.

Why? The route wouldn't be any shorter than the current ground floor route, and it would have to be outside the
barriers. Anyway, there isn't the clearance under the roof.

> Likewise a tunnel from the Thameslink platforms to tube ticket halls (but I'm told a river runs through it).

You'd still have to go up the lower set of escalators to clear the TL OHLE. You might as well go up the second set,
which avoids any issues about needing another gateline in the subway.

> The new St.Pancras is best thought of as a nice shopping centre with a few railway stations scattered around the edge.

That's how station refurbishments are funded these days. The eateries are very well used, and so are the shops. But I
never see many people in the champagne bar. Somehow, it doesn't seem to be in the right place for a champers
celebration.

On 17.06.23 15:30, Clive Page wrote:
> On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29
>> on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>
>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>>
>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
>> MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
>> tracks are in the way.
>
> In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored
> the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far
> as I know.

It is now, however, a ground level concourse, with the platforms
elevated (except Thameslink, which are underground). The platforms are
elevated due to the need to pass over the top of the Regent's Canal.

> If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube
> you got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the
> Eurostar and MML platforms.

The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level under the SE
platforms. The western ticket hall opens directly onto the ground level
concorse. There is no route from the tube to the elevated platform
levels other than by going through the ground level concourse.

> The MML platforms, of course, have been
> shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.

They have been shifted northwards because the Barlow trainshed is too
narrow for all of the Eurostar, SE and MML platforms. The only way the
MML and SE platforms could be any further south would involve either
demolisihing the Barlow trainshed or demolishing the British Library to
build them on that site.

>> I think a barrow crossing there is a bit ambitious :)
>
> Yes, but a footbridge over the Eurostar tracks would surely be feasible
> and convenient for those switching between Midland Mainline and SE
> trains platforms. Likewise a tunnel from the Thameslink platforms to
> tube ticket halls (but I'm told a river runs through it).  The new
> St.Pancras is best thought of as a nice shopping centre with a few
> railway stations scattered around the edge.

Given the requirements for number and length of platforms for each of
SE, Eurostar and MML, it is a physical impossibility to fit all of that
inside the Barlow trainshed. I don't see a different way of arranging
things that would be an improvement. I suppose purists would prefer all
of the space not required for actual railway operational purposes to
just be an austere empty hall with a few benches, but personally I find
the range of food and drink offerings is beneficial when I use the
station, and generating some revenue from rental of the space available
offsets the cost of running the place.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 17.06.23 15:30, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29
>>> on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>
>>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>>>
>>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
>>> MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
>>> tracks are in the way.
>>
>> In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored
>> the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far
>> as I know.
>
> It is now, however, a ground level concourse, with the platforms
> elevated (except Thameslink, which are underground). The platforms are
> elevated due to the need to pass over the top of the Regent's Canal.
>
>> If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube
>> you got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the
>> Eurostar and MML platforms.
>
> The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level under the SE
> platforms.

No, the Tube northern ticket hall is under Kings Cross, not St Pancras. The
ticket hall is at level -1, from which there are escalators and lifts up to
the ground level Kings Cross concourse. There's also a subway to St
Pancras, and then escalators and a lift to the ground level concourse near
the escalators to the Southeastern platforms.

> The western ticket hall opens directly onto the ground level
> concourse.

Like the other two Tube ticket halls, it's at -1 (subway) level, in front
of St Pancras. There's stairs and a lift to the St Pancras ground level
concourse, and a subway to the original ticket hall in front of Kings
Cross.

> There is no route from the tube to the elevated platform
> levels other than by going through the ground level concourse.
>
>> The MML platforms, of course, have been
>> shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.
>
> They have been shifted northwards because the Barlow trainshed is too
> narrow for all of the Eurostar, SE and MML platforms. The only way the
> MML and SE platforms could be any further south would involve either
> demolisihing the Barlow trainshed or demolishing the British Library to
> build them on that site.

I think the old St Pancras only had four platforms, plus some sidings and a
taxi road. If the whole width of the shed had been devoted to platforms,
there might have been room for eight or nine. The new St Pancras has 13 at
that level. All 13 are longer than the Barlow shed.

>
>>> I think a barrow crossing there is a bit ambitious :)
>>
>> Yes, but a footbridge over the Eurostar tracks would surely be feasible
>> and convenient for those switching between Midland Mainline and SE
>> trains platforms. Likewise a tunnel from the Thameslink platforms to
>> tube ticket halls (but I'm told a river runs through it).  The new
>> St.Pancras is best thought of as a nice shopping centre with a few
>> railway stations scattered around the edge.
>
> Given the requirements for number and length of platforms for each of
> SE, Eurostar and MML, it is a physical impossibility to fit all of that
> inside the Barlow trainshed. I don't see a different way of arranging
> things that would be an improvement. I suppose purists would prefer all
> of the space not required for actual railway operational purposes to
> just be an austere empty hall with a few benches, but personally I find
> the range of food and drink offerings is beneficial when I use the
> station, and generating some revenue from rental of the space available
> offsets the cost of running the place.

Yes, very much so. The shops, eateries and pub are well patronised. Lots of
e* passengers arrive early, and are happy to spend the time in a cafe. The
two M&S shops also sell lots of food for the coming rail journeys.

On 18.06.23 11:56, Recliner wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 17.06.23 15:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>> On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29
>>>> on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>>>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>>>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>>>>
>>>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
>>>> MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
>>>> tracks are in the way.
>>>
>>> In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored
>>> the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far
>>> as I know.
>>
>> It is now, however, a ground level concourse, with the platforms
>> elevated (except Thameslink, which are underground). The platforms are
>> elevated due to the need to pass over the top of the Regent's Canal.
>>
>>> If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube
>>> you got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the
>>> Eurostar and MML platforms.
>>
>> The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level under the SE
>> platforms.
>
> No, the Tube northern ticket hall is under Kings Cross, not St Pancras. The
> ticket hall is at level -1, from which there are escalators and lifts up to
> the ground level Kings Cross concourse. There's also a subway to St
> Pancras, and then escalators and a lift to the ground level concourse near
> the escalators to the Southeastern platforms.

Sure, the ticket hall itsel is physically acoss the street, but it has a
direct connection into St Pancras that doesn't involve walking outside,
and that connection does not put passengers at platform level, it
involves escalators from underground to ground level.

>> The western ticket hall opens directly onto the ground level
>> concourse.
>
> Like the other two Tube ticket halls, it's at -1 (subway) level, in front
> of St Pancras. There's stairs and a lift to the St Pancras ground level
> concourse, and a subway to the original ticket hall in front of Kings
> Cross.

The tiket hall is double-height, with a gallery walkway around it at
ground level that opens directly into St Pancras.

>> There is no route from the tube to the elevated platform
>> levels other than by going through the ground level concourse.
>>
>>> The MML platforms, of course, have been
>>> shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.
>>
>> They have been shifted northwards because the Barlow trainshed is too
>> narrow for all of the Eurostar, SE and MML platforms. The only way the
>> MML and SE platforms could be any further south would involve either
>> demolisihing the Barlow trainshed or demolishing the British Library to
>> build them on that site.
>
> I think the old St Pancras only had four platforms, plus some sidings and a
> taxi road. If the whole width of the shed had been devoted to platforms,
> there might have been room for eight or nine. The new St Pancras has 13 at
> that level. All 13 are longer than the Barlow shed.

The old St Pancras, at least by the time its rebuilding happened, was
far bigger than it needed to be in terms of the services operated, and
there was tons of space inside that was not used for anything in
particular. In the new St Pancras, you could probably fit two more
platforms where the walkway on the west side of the shed is, but I doubt
you could fit more.

Robin

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:13:52 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:

>On 18.06.23 11:56, Recliner wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 17.06.23 15:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29
>>>>> on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>>>>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>>>>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
>>>>> MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
>>>>> tracks are in the way.
>>>>
>>>> In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored
>>>> the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far
>>>> as I know.
>>>
>>> It is now, however, a ground level concourse, with the platforms
>>> elevated (except Thameslink, which are underground). The platforms are
>>> elevated due to the need to pass over the top of the Regent's Canal.
>>>
>>>> If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube
>>>> you got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the
>>>> Eurostar and MML platforms.
>>>
>>> The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level under the SE
>>> platforms.
>>
>> No, the Tube northern ticket hall is under Kings Cross, not St Pancras. The
>> ticket hall is at level -1, from which there are escalators and lifts up to
>> the ground level Kings Cross concourse. There's also a subway to St
>> Pancras, and then escalators and a lift to the ground level concourse near
>> the escalators to the Southeastern platforms.
>
>Sure, the ticket hall itsel is physically acoss the street, but it has a
>direct connection into St Pancras that doesn't involve walking outside,
>and that connection does not put passengers at platform level, it
>involves escalators from underground to ground level.

Yes, but that subway is about 100m long, so it's not just 'across the street'.

>
>>> The western ticket hall opens directly onto the ground level
>>> concourse.
>>
>> Like the other two Tube ticket halls, it's at -1 (subway) level, in front
>> of St Pancras. There's stairs and a lift to the St Pancras ground level
>> concourse, and a subway to the original ticket hall in front of Kings
>> Cross.
>
>The tiket hall is double-height, with a gallery walkway around it at
>ground level that opens directly into St Pancras.

Yes, I think it's directly under the old hotel building, with the tracks and platforms, of course, under the Euston
Road.

>
>>> There is no route from the tube to the elevated platform
>>> levels other than by going through the ground level concourse.
>>>
>>>> The MML platforms, of course, have been
>>>> shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.
>>>
>>> They have been shifted northwards because the Barlow trainshed is too
>>> narrow for all of the Eurostar, SE and MML platforms. The only way the
>>> MML and SE platforms could be any further south would involve either
>>> demolisihing the Barlow trainshed or demolishing the British Library to
>>> build them on that site.
>>
>> I think the old St Pancras only had four platforms, plus some sidings and a
>> taxi road. If the whole width of the shed had been devoted to platforms,
>> there might have been room for eight or nine. The new St Pancras has 13 at
>> that level. All 13 are longer than the Barlow shed.
>
>The old St Pancras, at least by the time its rebuilding happened, was
>far bigger than it needed to be in terms of the services operated, and
>there was tons of space inside that was not used for anything in
>particular. In the new St Pancras, you could probably fit two more
>platforms where the walkway on the west side of the shed is, but I doubt
>you could fit more.

I think you could probably squeeze in three platforms, but it would be tight.

On 18.06.23 14:10, Recliner wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:13:52 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> On 18.06.23 11:56, Recliner wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 17.06.23 15:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29
>>>>>> on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>>>>>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>>>>>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
>>>>>> MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
>>>>>> tracks are in the way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored
>>>>> the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far
>>>>> as I know.
>>>>
>>>> It is now, however, a ground level concourse, with the platforms
>>>> elevated (except Thameslink, which are underground). The platforms are
>>>> elevated due to the need to pass over the top of the Regent's Canal.
>>>>
>>>>> If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube
>>>>> you got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the
>>>>> Eurostar and MML platforms.
>>>>
>>>> The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level under the SE
>>>> platforms.
>>>
>>> No, the Tube northern ticket hall is under Kings Cross, not St Pancras. The
>>> ticket hall is at level -1, from which there are escalators and lifts up to
>>> the ground level Kings Cross concourse. There's also a subway to St
>>> Pancras, and then escalators and a lift to the ground level concourse near
>>> the escalators to the Southeastern platforms.
>>
>> Sure, the ticket hall itsel is physically acoss the street, but it has a
>> direct connection into St Pancras that doesn't involve walking outside,
>> and that connection does not put passengers at platform level, it
>> involves escalators from underground to ground level.
>
> Yes, but that subway is about 100m long, so it's not just 'across the street'.

Measuring on google maps, it 64 m. To views from the same location:
https://goo.gl/maps/rfBA11Ce1vT9gGa69
https://goo.gl/maps/8kCTjHrxVo4vVAR5A
The escalators from LU come up right under the glassed in corner of St P.

>>>> The western ticket hall opens directly onto the ground level
>>>> concourse.
>>>
>>> Like the other two Tube ticket halls, it's at -1 (subway) level, in front
>>> of St Pancras. There's stairs and a lift to the St Pancras ground level
>>> concourse, and a subway to the original ticket hall in front of Kings
>>> Cross.
>>
>> The tiket hall is double-height, with a gallery walkway around it at
>> ground level that opens directly into St Pancras.
>
> Yes, I think it's directly under the old hotel building, with the tracks and platforms, of course, under the Euston
> Road.

The location is recorded on google maps street view:
https://goo.gl/maps/why8TuiBG3tQ9SsUA

>>>> There is no route from the tube to the elevated platform
>>>> levels other than by going through the ground level concourse.
>>>>
>>>>> The MML platforms, of course, have been
>>>>> shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.
>>>>
>>>> They have been shifted northwards because the Barlow trainshed is too
>>>> narrow for all of the Eurostar, SE and MML platforms. The only way the
>>>> MML and SE platforms could be any further south would involve either
>>>> demolisihing the Barlow trainshed or demolishing the British Library to
>>>> build them on that site.
>>>
>>> I think the old St Pancras only had four platforms, plus some sidings and a
>>> taxi road. If the whole width of the shed had been devoted to platforms,
>>> there might have been room for eight or nine. The new St Pancras has 13 at
>>> that level. All 13 are longer than the Barlow shed.
>>
>> The old St Pancras, at least by the time its rebuilding happened, was
>> far bigger than it needed to be in terms of the services operated, and
>> there was tons of space inside that was not used for anything in
>> particular. In the new St Pancras, you could probably fit two more
>> platforms where the walkway on the west side of the shed is, but I doubt
>> you could fit more.
>
> I think you could probably squeeze in three platforms, but it would be tight.

MML needs 4 and SE Highspeed 3 more.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 18.06.23 14:10, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:13:52 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18.06.23 11:56, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 17.06.23 15:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29
>>>>>>> on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are not
>>>>>>>> signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement and
>>>>>>>> look back before I could find out where to go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from the
>>>>>>> MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the Eurostar
>>>>>>> tracks are in the way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored
>>>>>> the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as far
>>>>>> as I know.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is now, however, a ground level concourse, with the platforms
>>>>> elevated (except Thameslink, which are underground). The platforms are
>>>>> elevated due to the need to pass over the top of the Regent's Canal.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube
>>>>>> you got to the platform level which is still the same level used by the
>>>>>> Eurostar and MML platforms.
>>>>>
>>>>> The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level under the SE
>>>>> platforms.
>>>>
>>>> No, the Tube northern ticket hall is under Kings Cross, not St Pancras. The
>>>> ticket hall is at level -1, from which there are escalators and lifts up to
>>>> the ground level Kings Cross concourse. There's also a subway to St
>>>> Pancras, and then escalators and a lift to the ground level concourse near
>>>> the escalators to the Southeastern platforms.
>>>
>>> Sure, the ticket hall itsel is physically acoss the street, but it has a
>>> direct connection into St Pancras that doesn't involve walking outside,
>>> and that connection does not put passengers at platform level, it
>>> involves escalators from underground to ground level.
>>
>> Yes, but that subway is about 100m long, so it's not just 'across the street'.
>
> Measuring on google maps, it 64 m. To views from the same location:
> https://goo.gl/maps/rfBA11Ce1vT9gGa69
> https://goo.gl/maps/8kCTjHrxVo4vVAR5A
> The escalators from LU come up right under the glassed in corner of St P.

Yes, but even allowing for that, it's more than 64m. It's quite a long
walk.

>
>>>>> The western ticket hall opens directly onto the ground level
>>>>> concourse.
>>>>
>>>> Like the other two Tube ticket halls, it's at -1 (subway) level, in front
>>>> of St Pancras. There's stairs and a lift to the St Pancras ground level
>>>> concourse, and a subway to the original ticket hall in front of Kings
>>>> Cross.
>>>
>>> The tiket hall is double-height, with a gallery walkway around it at
>>> ground level that opens directly into St Pancras.
>>
>> Yes, I think it's directly under the old hotel building, with the tracks
>> and platforms, of course, under the Euston
>> Road.
>
> The location is recorded on google maps street view:
> https://goo.gl/maps/why8TuiBG3tQ9SsUA

Which suggests it's directly in front of the thin hotel building, under the
raised forecourt. That makes sense.

>
>>>>> There is no route from the tube to the elevated platform
>>>>> levels other than by going through the ground level concourse.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The MML platforms, of course, have been
>>>>>> shifted a bit northwards to make room for more retail opportunities.
>>>>>
>>>>> They have been shifted northwards because the Barlow trainshed is too
>>>>> narrow for all of the Eurostar, SE and MML platforms. The only way the
>>>>> MML and SE platforms could be any further south would involve either
>>>>> demolisihing the Barlow trainshed or demolishing the British Library to
>>>>> build them on that site.
>>>>
>>>> I think the old St Pancras only had four platforms, plus some sidings and a
>>>> taxi road. If the whole width of the shed had been devoted to platforms,
>>>> there might have been room for eight or nine. The new St Pancras has 13 at
>>>> that level. All 13 are longer than the Barlow shed.
>>>
>>> The old St Pancras, at least by the time its rebuilding happened, was
>>> far bigger than it needed to be in terms of the services operated, and
>>> there was tons of space inside that was not used for anything in
>>> particular. In the new St Pancras, you could probably fit two more
>>> platforms where the walkway on the west side of the shed is, but I doubt
>>> you could fit more.
>>
>> I think you could probably squeeze in three platforms, but it would be tight.
>
> MML needs 4 and SE Highspeed 3 more.
>

Yup, as stated, it's why the flat-roofed extension is much wider than the
Barlow shed. What's perhaps more surprising is that it's longer, too.  

HOf course, it now turns out the the modern MML needs more than four
platforms, while Eurostar could get by with fewer than six, even allowing
for the security segregation of arriving and departing passengers (so you
can’t have a train arriving at an island platform if another train is
loading on the opposite face). It's probably the main reason why they delay
boarding.

In message <kf5qs1Fkd0gU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:30:41 on Sat, 17
Jun 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 17/06/2023 11:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <d1uo8i9e4f7svg7at3pqhgsleos68eomf0@4ax.com>, at 16:46:29
>>on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam>
>>remarked:
>>
>>> 6 June was a first experience on HS1, the platforms for which are
>>>not signed from the MML platforms. I had to go down to the basement
>>>and look back before I could find out where to go.

>> That's not the basement, it's ground level, and you can't get from
>>the MML Mezzanine to the HS1 mezzanine any other way, because the
>>Eurostar tracks are in the way.
>
>In the good old days, this used to be the basement (where they stored
>the barrels of beer from Burton) and was never open to the public as
>far as I know.

In effect they built a station on top of 'railway arches' which just
happened to be architected as an undercroft (cf London Bridge with more
classical arches).

After the redevelopment, the stretch alongside Pancras Road was
originally a rather long thin M&S, but it was a bit off the beaten track
(the far smaller one near E* check-in always was vastly busier) and in
late 2018 was converted into "The Barrel Vaults" pub.

>If you arrived at St.Pancras from the street or indeed tube you got to
>the platform level which is still the same level used by the Eurostar
>and MML platforms.

If you arrived by street you had to go "upstairs", which is still there
(and pretty much underneath was another upwards passageway from the
classic tube ticket hall coming out roughly where the indoor entrance to
the Betjeman Arms is now):

https://goo.gl/maps/tgqvy92ReCcMnoYC9

iirc a tube entrance existed then, but it would have been a u-turn back
to the classic tube hall, and not as it is now, mainly for the Western
Ticket Hall.

>The MML platforms, of course, have been shifted a bit northwards to
>make room for more retail opportunities.

They were completely rebuilt outside the Barlow shed, because the
majority of the width of the latter was required for the southern half
of the Eurostar platforms.

This resulted in a considerable walk to Euston Road, with the side
effect that the passengers were channeled by the position of the
escalators down, onto *that* walk, rather than sideways through the
"Farmers Market" to the HS1 platforms or Kings Cross new atrium (with
Northern Ticket Hall below).

>> I think a barrow crossing there is a bit ambitious :)
>
>Yes, but a footbridge over the Eurostar tracks would surely be feasible
>and convenient for those switching between Midland Mainline and SE
>trains platforms.

Notwithstanding an ulterior motive to channel arriving passengers down
one half of their new shopping mall (and ironically away from the other
half) all the indications are that they didn't expect much footfall on
that specific flow, so even if the engineering were possible it would be
lots of extra cost for very little benefit.

>Likewise a tunnel from the Thameslink platforms to tube ticket halls

Yes, the "missing link" (but again see the cost-benefit of the extra
work, and the Thameslink station project only just managed to scrape
together the funding for what actually is there, which was originally
supposed to be two island platforms to help regulate the flow between
the two northern branches of Thameslink) would have been tube-style exit
at the southern end of each Thameslink tunnel, probably down, to a
common passage coming out on the western end of the Northern Line
platforms. From where passengers could filter through to the Picc/Vic
via the existing arrangements under the classic ticket hall.

<Thread convergence> You'd need some validators on that passageway from
SPILL.

> (but I'm told a river runs through it).

This is an old wive's tale. The river in question never was never
precisely there, and is now even further away, having been diverted
around the northeast corner of the SPILL station box and under the site
of the now Barrel Vaults Pub (with HS1 concourse above) then alongside
Pancras Road where it then turns east under the new Kings Cross Square,
and is now shadowed by the Thameslink Line all the way to its mouth at
Blackfriars Bridge.

>The new St.Pancras is best thought of as a nice shopping centre with a
>few railway stations scattered around the edge.

It's very much in the style of an airport terminal, with the sorts of
shop catering to International passengers. The greatest disappointment
perhaps being that the Farmers Market wasn't actually somewhere for
locals to buy their provisions, but a brand for an upmarket tourist
trap.

Footnote: Lots of historical material online, including its massive
decline in the 90's; one collection - https://stpancras.com/history
--
Roland Perry

In message <u6ncq2$1n1qt$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:53:22 on Sun, 18 Jun
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

**In message <u6nb8b$1mr84$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:26:51 on Sun, 18 Jun
**2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:

>>>>>> The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level under the SE
>>>>>> platforms.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the Tube northern ticket hall is under Kings Cross, not St Pancras. The
>>>>> ticket hall is at level -1, from which there are escalators and lifts up to
>>>>> the ground level Kings Cross concourse. There's also a subway to St
>>>>> Pancras, and then escalators and a lift to the ground level concourse near
>>>>> the escalators to the Southeastern platforms.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, the ticket hall itsel is physically acoss the street, but it has a
>>>> direct connection into St Pancras that doesn't involve walking outside,
>>>> and that connection does not put passengers at platform level, it
>>>> involves escalators from underground to ground level.
>>>
>>> Yes, but that subway is about 100m long, so it's not just 'across the street'.
>>
>> Measuring on google maps, it 64 m.

That's only the distance between the very edges of the buildings.

>>To views from the same location:
>> https://goo.gl/maps/rfBA11Ce1vT9gGa69
>> https://goo.gl/maps/8kCTjHrxVo4vVAR5A
>> The escalators from LU come up right under the glassed in corner of St P.
>
>Yes, but even allowing for that, it's more than 64m. It's quite a long
>walk.

I measure it at around 110m, because the NW end is well inside StPancras
(the bottom of the glass lift inside, which goes directly up to the HS1
platforms is some way before the end) and the same at the SE end where
it comes out roughly at the bottom of the wide stairway from the road
down to the ticket hall.
--
Roland Perry

On 19.06.23 14:55, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u6ncq2$1n1qt$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:53:22 on Sun, 18 Jun
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
> **In message <u6nb8b$1mr84$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:26:51 on Sun, 18 Jun
> **2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>> The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level under
>>>>>>> the SE
>>>>>>> platforms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, the Tube northern ticket hall is under Kings Cross, not St
>>>>>> Pancras. The
>>>>>> ticket hall is at level -1, from which there are escalators and
>>>>>> lifts up to
>>>>>> the ground level Kings Cross concourse. There's also a subway to St
>>>>>> Pancras, and then escalators and a lift to the ground level
>>>>>> concourse near
>>>>>> the escalators to the Southeastern platforms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, the ticket hall itsel is physically acoss the street, but it
>>>>> has a
>>>>> direct connection into St Pancras that doesn't involve walking
>>>>> outside,
>>>>> and that connection does not put passengers at platform level, it
>>>>> involves escalators from underground to ground level.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but that subway is about 100m long, so it's not just 'across
>>>> the street'.
>>>
>>> Measuring on google maps, it 64 m.
>
> That's only the distance between the very edges of the buildings.

Both ends of the passage are in line with the very edges of the
respective buildings.

>>> To views from the same location:
>>> https://goo.gl/maps/rfBA11Ce1vT9gGa69
>>> https://goo.gl/maps/8kCTjHrxVo4vVAR5A
>>> The escalators from LU come up right under the glassed in corner of
>>> St P.
>>
>> Yes, but even allowing for that, it's more than 64m. It's quite a long
>> walk.
>
> I measure it at around 110m, because the NW end is well inside StPancras
> (the bottom of the glass lift inside, which goes directly up to the HS1
> platforms is some way before the end)

There are escalators that come up under the very corner of the building
of St Pancras:
https://goo.gl/maps/21vphhgKeTgxes63A

> and the same at the SE end where
> it comes out roughly at the bottom of the wide stairway from the road
> down to the ticket hall.

The wide stairway enters from the street, and is directly under the very
edge of the building.
https://goo.gl/maps/V8h74hdMM5RhvicT8

The passageway to StP is approximately beneath the two people with
wheely suitcases in that picture.

Robin

In message <u6pmrp$2331q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:57:13 on Mon, 19 Jun
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 19.06.23 14:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <u6ncq2$1n1qt$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:53:22 on Sun, 18 Jun
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> **In message <u6nb8b$1mr84$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:26:51 on Sun, 18
>>Jun **2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>> The northern ticket hall escalators come up at ground level
>>>>>>>>under the SE
>>>>>>>> platforms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, the Tube northern ticket hall is under Kings Cross, not St
>>>>>>>Pancras. The
>>>>>>> ticket hall is at level -1, from which there are escalators and
>>>>>>>lifts up to
>>>>>>> the ground level Kings Cross concourse. There's also a subway to St
>>>>>>> Pancras, and then escalators and a lift to the ground level
>>>>>>>concourse near
>>>>>>> the escalators to the Southeastern platforms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, the ticket hall itsel is physically acoss the street, but
>>>>>>it has a
>>>>>> direct connection into St Pancras that doesn't involve walking
>>>>>>outside,
>>>>>> and that connection does not put passengers at platform level, it
>>>>>> involves escalators from underground to ground level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but that subway is about 100m long, so it's not just 'across
>>>>>the street'.
>>>>
>>>> Measuring on google maps, it 64 m.

>> That's only the distance between the very edges of the buildings.
>
>Both ends of the passage are in line with the very edges of the
>respective buildings.

>>>> To views from the same location:
>>>> https://goo.gl/maps/rfBA11Ce1vT9gGa69
>>>> https://goo.gl/maps/8kCTjHrxVo4vVAR5A
>>>> The escalators from LU come up right under the glassed in corner of
>>>>St P.
>>>
>>> Yes, but even allowing for that, it's more than 64m. It's quite a long
>>> walk.
>> I measure it at around 110m, because the NW end is well inside
>>StPancras (the bottom of the glass lift inside, which goes directly
>>up to the HS1 platforms is some way before the end)
>
>There are escalators that come up under the very corner of the building
>of St Pancras:
>https://goo.gl/maps/21vphhgKeTgxes63A

That's not the end of the passage, it continues past the glass lift to
the escalators up to the HS1platforms.

>> and the same at the SE end where it comes out roughly at the bottom
>>of the wide stairway from the road down to the ticket hall.
>
>The wide stairway enters from the street, and is directly under the
>very edge of the building.
>https://goo.gl/maps/V8h74hdMM5RhvicT8

Two problems with that:

a) The 65m is to the edge of the canopy, not the edge of the building
b) iirc the passageway comes out at the *foot* of the stairs, in other
words the Northern Ticket Hall concourse has a smaller footprint than
the ground floor structure.

>The passageway to StP is approximately beneath the two people with
>wheely suitcases in that picture.

That's right - we agree about the position of it, but not the length.
--
Roland Perry

On 18/06/2023 17:53, Recliner wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 18.06.23 14:10, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:13:52 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 18.06.23 11:56, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> I think the old St Pancras only had four platforms, plus some sidings and a
>>>>> taxi road. If the whole width of the shed had been devoted to platforms,
>>>>> there might have been room for eight or nine. The new St Pancras has 13 at
>>>>> that level. All 13 are longer than the Barlow shed.
>>>>
>>>> The old St Pancras, at least by the time its rebuilding happened, was
>>>> far bigger than it needed to be in terms of the services operated, and
>>>> there was tons of space inside that was not used for anything in
>>>> particular. In the new St Pancras, you could probably fit two more
>>>> platforms where the walkway on the west side of the shed is, but I doubt
>>>> you could fit more.
>>>
>>> I think you could probably squeeze in three platforms, but it would be tight.
>>
>> MML needs 4 and SE Highspeed 3 more.
>
> Yup, as stated, it's why the flat-roofed extension is much wider than the
> Barlow shed. What's perhaps more surprising is that it's longer, too.  
>
> HOf course, it now turns out the the modern MML needs more than four
> platforms, while Eurostar could get by with fewer than six, even allowing
> for the security segregation of arriving and departing passengers (so you
> can’t have a train arriving at an island platform if another train is
> loading on the opposite face). It's probably the main reason why they delay
> boarding.

Was there ever a realistic possibility of Eurostar running more than 2 tph?
And even if they did, would that really require more than 4 platforms? But
despite having excess platforms the Eurostar entrance/check in area was
inadequate right from the start, even for the service they did operate. And
4 platforms was widely regarded as being limiting for the MML as soon as it
was announced, so the balance of allocated space was always going to be poor.

Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
> On 18/06/2023 17:53, Recliner wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 18.06.23 14:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:13:52 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 18.06.23 11:56, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> I think the old St Pancras only had four platforms, plus some sidings and a
>>>>>> taxi road. If the whole width of the shed had been devoted to platforms,
>>>>>> there might have been room for eight or nine. The new St Pancras has 13 at
>>>>>> that level. All 13 are longer than the Barlow shed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The old St Pancras, at least by the time its rebuilding happened, was
>>>>> far bigger than it needed to be in terms of the services operated, and
>>>>> there was tons of space inside that was not used for anything in
>>>>> particular. In the new St Pancras, you could probably fit two more
>>>>> platforms where the walkway on the west side of the shed is, but I doubt
>>>>> you could fit more.
>>>>
>>>> I think you could probably squeeze in three platforms, but it would be tight.
>>>
>>> MML needs 4 and SE Highspeed 3 more.
>>
>> Yup, as stated, it's why the flat-roofed extension is much wider than the
>> Barlow shed. What's perhaps more surprising is that it's longer, too.  
>>
>> HOf course, it now turns out the the modern MML needs more than four
>> platforms, while Eurostar could get by with fewer than six, even allowing
>> for the security segregation of arriving and departing passengers (so you
>> can’t have a train arriving at an island platform if another train is
>> loading on the opposite face). It's probably the main reason why they delay
>> boarding.
>
> Was there ever a realistic possibility of Eurostar running more than 2 tph?
> And even if they did, would that really require more than 4 platforms? But
> despite having excess platforms the Eurostar entrance/check in area was
> inadequate right from the start, even for the service they did operate. And
> 4 platforms was widely regarded as being limiting for the MML as soon as it
> was announced, so the balance of allocated space was always going to be poor.

When the station was being redesigned for Eurostar, about 25 years ago,
there were hopes that Eurostar would grow much more than it has actually
managed, serving several additional destinations, and perhaps with more
frequent services on the core routes. At that time, there might have been
hopes of getting rid of the security scanning, and perhaps streamlining the
passport checks to just a single ePassport machine covering both UK and
Schengen.

At the same time, the MML services had been in long-term decline for many
years, with no sign yet of the perhaps unexpected post-privatisation
growth. It was very much the poor relation, behind the rwo sexy new high
speed servuces.

With the benefit of hindsight, Eurostar should probably have had four or
five separate (not shared island) platforms, with a larger ground floor
departure terminal. The MML should have had five platforms.

Of course, if HS2 ever gets built, offering perhaps 3tph MML services from
Euston, that will reduce the pressure on St Pancras.