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aus+uk / uk.comp.sys.mac / Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

SubjectAuthor
* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida
+* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareAndy Hewitt
|`* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida
| `- Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareAndy Hewitt
+- Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareDavid Kennedy
+* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida
|+* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida
||`* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida
|| `* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareRJH
||  `* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida
||   +- Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareDavid Brooks
||   `* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida
||    `* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareAndy Hewitt
||     `* Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida
||      +- Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareDavid Brooks
||      `- Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareAndy Hewitt
|`- Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareAndy Hewitt
`- Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkwareD.M. Procida

1
Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

<j5o4abF333vU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
Date: 30 Jan 2022 18:39:07 GMT
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 by: D.M. Procida - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:39 UTC

I've spent hours and hours carefully performing a migration from Aperture to
Photos.

This morning, it was all done. ~4500, all in Photos albums matching those from
Aperture, and merged with an existing Photos library. All had been uploaded to
iCloud, and was represented across multiple devices. There was no further
iCloud activity taking place.

At some point between then and now Photos has, without any warning that it
would or had, deleted a very large number of those albums. There are now ~2500
photos not in any album. All the photos seem still seem to be in the library,
but albums are gone (on iCloud, and across multiple devices).

How is this possible? What kind of software can behave like this?

Albums are affected randomly, there appears to be no pattern to it.

This is genuinely, truly, shit.

Daniele

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

<st6ukn$lcr$1@dont-email.me>

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From: thewildr...@icloud.com (Andy Hewitt)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 21:06:26 +0000
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 by: Andy Hewitt - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 21:06 UTC

On 30/01/2022 18:39, D.M. Procida wrote:
> I've spent hours and hours carefully performing a migration from Aperture to
> Photos.
>
> This morning, it was all done. ~4500, all in Photos albums matching those from
> Aperture, and merged with an existing Photos library. All had been uploaded to
> iCloud, and was represented across multiple devices. There was no further
> iCloud activity taking place.

Yeah, stuff does still go on in the background, even with the app closed.

> At some point between then and now Photos has, without any warning that it
> would or had, deleted a very large number of those albums. There are now ~2500
> photos not in any album. All the photos seem still seem to be in the library,
> but albums are gone (on iCloud, and across multiple devices).
>
> How is this possible? What kind of software can behave like this?
>
> Albums are affected randomly, there appears to be no pattern to it.
>
> This is genuinely, truly, shit.

Well, in an earlier reply in another thread I did say:

"Whenever I tried to migrate over to Photos, I did find it was less
reliable, and suffered with library issues a lot."

and then:

"When I moved from Lightroom about 18 months ago, and switched to the
iPad + Photos + extensions, I ended up migrating by starting afresh. I
imported my entire collection from my archive, and rebuilt the layout
from scratch."

I did also point you to some helpful scripts that ease this process.

For sure my recent experience has been good with Photos, but that's
since building a fresh Library, and importing from a basic folder system.

For 4500 photos, I'd say that would be the way to go still. I've done it
with 60,000 photos.

It may be a better solution to set the Aperture library to 'Referenced'
mode, and just cleanly import the folders that way, if you have the
'Managed', you could also do an Export Originals and import those instead.

Don't forget, you're trying to migrate a library from a very out of date
application, that hasn't been in development for years, into a newer
app. It's a wonder that it even works at all in any way.

I know it doesn't help much here, but as usual, YMMV applies. Also not a
help, I know, but it's not the worst either.

To be honest though, and I'm not trying to be facetious here, anyone
still using Aperture should really have planned a get out a long time
ago. Perhaps there's just too much of a gap between the versions now?

Perhaps a thing to try, is to attempt a library repair. I would turn off
iCloud Photos on all devices, except the master desktop, run the repair
routine, allow it to process again, and see if that helps. I don't hold
much hope for that, but it's worth a try. If it works, wait until the
main library has updated fully, then turn on each device one at a time.

Check all the settings on each device (just in case you've left
something daft set wrong). Just be sure you haven't clicked anything
accidentally on any device, as anything like that will reciprocate
across all devices.

--
Andy H

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

<j5ogd1F5bkcU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
Date: 30 Jan 2022 22:05:21 GMT
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 by: D.M. Procida - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 22:05 UTC

On 30 Jan 2022 at 21:06:26 GMT, "Andy Hewitt" <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

> Don't forget, you're trying to migrate a library from a very out of date
> application, that hasn't been in development for years, into a newer
> app. It's a wonder that it even works at all in any way.

That's the thing - no, I'd done the migration. The migration itself was swift
and pretty painless in the end.

Once I'd moved things around in Photos and tidied some things up, the library
was organised and stable.

After the initial tardiness in populating the albums on iCloud, it was stable
and organised across multiple devices, and any changes were propagated almost
immediately to iCloud and the other devices.

What's more, amongst the albums that have mysteriously disappeared are albums
that were *in Photos to begin with* - not ones migrated from Aperture.

I'm now more certain it's an iCloud issue.

Since I first complained about this, I completely wiped the iPad I mentioned -
a complete reset - and allowed it to reconnect to the account.

I watched the photos and albums appearing as it downloaded the library. After
a while, some of the *missing* albums appeared on the iPad, in their expected
places.

The same albums were not showing up on icloud.com, the source that it was
downloading them from.

And then a few minutes later on the iPad, again before my eyes, I watched them
disappear again.

I still see *some* of the "missing" albums showing up on the iPad, downloaded
in the last minutes, though they're not visible via icloud.com - oh, but they
are now: *literally* while typing this sentence, they deigned to appear.

Will they remain? Will they disappear again? Who the hell knows?

I make software for a living. The problems that Photos and iCloud are are
trying to solve are very difficult ones. I wouldn't do a good job of designing
systems intended to handle distributed databases of content and metadata, and
I certainly wouldn't be able to implement one. But I hope I would lose my job
if I were ever responsible for producing something with the disdain and
contempt for user experience that Apple are demonstrating here.

Daniele

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

<st73nt$pd3$1@dont-email.me>

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From: thewildr...@icloud.com (Andy Hewitt)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 22:33:32 +0000
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 by: Andy Hewitt - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 22:33 UTC

On 30/01/2022 22:05, D.M. Procida wrote:
> On 30 Jan 2022 at 21:06:26 GMT, "Andy Hewitt" <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't forget, you're trying to migrate a library from a very out of date
>> application, that hasn't been in development for years, into a newer
>> app. It's a wonder that it even works at all in any way.
>
> That's the thing - no, I'd done the migration. The migration itself was swift
> and pretty painless in the end.
>
> Once I'd moved things around in Photos and tidied some things up, the library
> was organised and stable.
>
> After the initial tardiness in populating the albums on iCloud, it was stable
> and organised across multiple devices, and any changes were propagated almost
> immediately to iCloud and the other devices.
>
> What's more, amongst the albums that have mysteriously disappeared are albums
> that were *in Photos to begin with* - not ones migrated from Aperture.
>
> I'm now more certain it's an iCloud issue.
>
> Since I first complained about this, I completely wiped the iPad I mentioned -
> a complete reset - and allowed it to reconnect to the account.
>
> I watched the photos and albums appearing as it downloaded the library. After
> a while, some of the *missing* albums appeared on the iPad, in their expected
> places.
>
> The same albums were not showing up on icloud.com, the source that it was
> downloading them from.
>
> And then a few minutes later on the iPad, again before my eyes, I watched them
> disappear again.
>
> I still see *some* of the "missing" albums showing up on the iPad, downloaded
> in the last minutes, though they're not visible via icloud.com - oh, but they
> are now: *literally* while typing this sentence, they deigned to appear.
>
> Will they remain? Will they disappear again? Who the hell knows?
>
> I make software for a living. The problems that Photos and iCloud are are
> trying to solve are very difficult ones. I wouldn't do a good job of designing
> systems intended to handle distributed databases of content and metadata, and
> I certainly wouldn't be able to implement one. But I hope I would lose my job
> if I were ever responsible for producing something with the disdain and
> contempt for user experience that Apple are demonstrating here.

I did say you need to be patient. It can take days for everything to
fully curate. It's possible there is no problem.

As I said, Photos does a lot in the background, even when you think it's
not.

My biggest annoyance is that albums don't stay sorted in order at first,
but eventually, they do. Just a bit of patience.

I would say the general idea is that albums shouldn't be needed much,
not by the way they designed it anyway.

I still have a layout (probably unnecessary and outdated, but it's my
preference) that replicates a Source folder (i.e. Digital camera photos,
scanned photos etc.), then a Year folder filled with date titled albums
for events.

As Photos already breaks things down into Year/Month/Day headers, this
is essentially not needed.

For what it was intended, Photos is an excellent solution. It doesn't
work well when pushed hard, but is that really unexpected?

--
Andy H

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

<woydnWJvjbl-YmX8nZ2dnUU7-R2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
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 by: David Kennedy - Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:39 UTC

On 30/01/2022 18:39, D.M. Procida wrote:
> I've spent hours and hours carefully performing a migration from Aperture to
> Photos.
>
> This morning, it was all done. ~4500, all in Photos albums matching those from
> Aperture, and merged with an existing Photos library. All had been uploaded to
> iCloud, and was represented across multiple devices. There was no further
> iCloud activity taking place.
>
> At some point between then and now Photos has, without any warning that it
> would or had, deleted a very large number of those albums. There are now ~2500
> photos not in any album. All the photos seem still seem to be in the library,
> but albums are gone (on iCloud, and across multiple devices).
>
> How is this possible? What kind of software can behave like this?
>
> Albums are affected randomly, there appears to be no pattern to it.
>
> This is genuinely, truly, shit.
>
> Daniele
>
It also occasionally downloads a photo from my iphone declaring that it's a
new photo despite if being - in some cases years old - and already being
present in the library.

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
Date: 2 Feb 2022 20:14:30 GMT
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 by: D.M. Procida - Wed, 2 Feb 2022 20:14 UTC

On 30 Jan 2022 at 18:39:07 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
<daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

> I've spent hours and hours carefully performing a migration from Aperture to
> Photos.
>
> This morning, it was all done. ~4500, all in Photos albums matching those from
> Aperture, and merged with an existing Photos library. All had been uploaded to
> iCloud, and was represented across multiple devices. There was no further
> iCloud activity taking place.
>
> At some point between then and now Photos has, without any warning that it
> would or had, deleted a very large number of those albums. There are now ~2500
> photos not in any album. All the photos seem still seem to be in the library,
> but albums are gone (on iCloud, and across multiple devices).
>
> How is this possible? What kind of software can behave like this?
>
> Albums are affected randomly, there appears to be no pattern to it.
>
> This is genuinely, truly, shit.

Well, I'm giving up.

I had exactly what I wanted, ~4500 photos organised into albums, uploaded to
iCloud and all available and organised in the same way on four different
devices plus iCloud.com/photos.

Since then I have seen various albums pop out of and back in to existence,
some multiple times. When I first noticed it, about 2500 photos had lost their
albums.

The "best" device for representing the original set wasn't the source device
that seeded all the images and photos, it was an eight-year-old iPad running
an elderly iOS. Albums appeared back on that that weren't shown anywhere else.

Over the last 48 hours or so iCloud and all the other devices seem to have
settled on some kind of agreement, with about 1700 photos now no longer in
albums. No sign of further change.

I can only assume that I was unlucky and hit some sort of iCloud photos bug,
because if this were a typical failure, more people would be complaining about
it (they certainly have a lot to complain about, but disappearing albums
doesn't seem to be a common one).

I have restored a backup of the library in its correct state.

Now I want to upload it to iCloud. Easy enough for me to go back to empty
photo libraries on the other devices, so that they pull down data untainted by
their own opinions; how do I reset iCloud itself to a blank slate?

I'm half-tempted to let this library loose on iCloud as it is, just to see
what happens.

Daniele

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
Date: 2 Feb 2022 20:43:10 GMT
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 by: D.M. Procida - Wed, 2 Feb 2022 20:43 UTC

On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:14:30 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
<daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

> I'm half-tempted to let this library loose on iCloud as it is, just to see
> what happens.

I just did.

Within seconds (a minute or two anyway), iCloud now shows all the albums I
expected to see.

I'm going to leave it like that to see what transpires over the next day or
so.

Daniele

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

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From: thewildr...@icloud.com (Andy Hewitt)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
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 by: Andy Hewitt - Thu, 3 Feb 2022 15:59 UTC

On 02/02/2022 20:14, D.M. Procida wrote:
> On 30 Jan 2022 at 18:39:07 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> I've spent hours and hours carefully performing a migration from Aperture to
>> Photos.
>>
>> This morning, it was all done. ~4500, all in Photos albums matching those from
>> Aperture, and merged with an existing Photos library. All had been uploaded to
>> iCloud, and was represented across multiple devices. There was no further
>> iCloud activity taking place.
>>
>> At some point between then and now Photos has, without any warning that it
>> would or had, deleted a very large number of those albums. There are now ~2500
>> photos not in any album. All the photos seem still seem to be in the library,
>> but albums are gone (on iCloud, and across multiple devices).
>>
>> How is this possible? What kind of software can behave like this?
>>
>> Albums are affected randomly, there appears to be no pattern to it.
>>
>> This is genuinely, truly, shit.

I did say that the Aperture to Photos migration may not work well.

I would still be inclined to import from a fresh set of original images,
as I've mentioned already. Use the Old Toad's scripts to import as
folders, which does minimise the reworking of the layout.

> I had exactly what I wanted, ~4500 photos organised into albums, uploaded to
> iCloud and all available and organised in the same way on four different
> devices plus iCloud.com/photos.
>
> Since then I have seen various albums pop out of and back in to existence,
> some multiple times. When I first noticed it, about 2500 photos had lost their
> albums.
>
> The "best" device for representing the original set wasn't the source device
> that seeded all the images and photos, it was an eight-year-old iPad running
> an elderly iOS. Albums appeared back on that that weren't shown anywhere else.
>
> Over the last 48 hours or so iCloud and all the other devices seem to have
> settled on some kind of agreement, with about 1700 photos now no longer in
> albums. No sign of further change.
>
> I can only assume that I was unlucky and hit some sort of iCloud photos bug,
> because if this were a typical failure, more people would be complaining about
> it (they certainly have a lot to complain about, but disappearing albums
> doesn't seem to be a common one).

Indeed, this is a fairly uncommon issue.

FWIW, Cloud storage as a live working environment isn't guaranteed to be
reliable. At least you're only losing some organisation data, in the
last 18 months Adobe have managed to lose users original files at least
twice.

I make use of Photos and iCloud well here. However, I still maintain a
full archive copy of everything on separate drives. I also don't really
use Photos for much work either, although it does have a very competent
editor module, I find working with external apps on an iPad Pro proving
to be flexible and stable (so far).

When Photos and iCloud is working as expected, it's a very nice setup.

--
Andy H

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Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
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 by: D.M. Procida - Thu, 3 Feb 2022 17:45 UTC

On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:43:10 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
<daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

> On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:14:30 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm half-tempted to let this library loose on iCloud as it is, just to see
>> what happens.
>
> I just did.
>
> Within seconds (a minute or two anyway), iCloud now shows all the albums I
> expected to see.
>
> I'm going to leave it like that to see what transpires over the next day or
> so.

~20 hours later it's looking OK.

No mysterious disapearances. No strange shuffling of items.

It seems to have recognised that every single photo in the local library was
in fact present on iCloud too.

The only glitch is that while it was doing its first sync, it identified every
local TIFF as an image that couldn't be uploaded. Once I quite and restarted
photos, it had stopped complaining. All the TIFF files seem to be up there
anyway.

Next step is to reconnect the other devices one-by-one and see whether iCloud
manages to reconcile their libraries in expected or utterly bizarre ways.

Daniele

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

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 by: RJH - Thu, 3 Feb 2022 18:23 UTC

On 3 Feb 2022 at 17:45:37 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
<daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

> On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:43:10 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:14:30 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
>> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm half-tempted to let this library loose on iCloud as it is, just to see
>>> what happens.
>>
>> I just did.
>>
>> Within seconds (a minute or two anyway), iCloud now shows all the albums I
>> expected to see.
>>
>> I'm going to leave it like that to see what transpires over the next day or
>> so.
>
> ~20 hours later it's looking OK.
>
> No mysterious disapearances. No strange shuffling of items.
>
> It seems to have recognised that every single photo in the local library was
> in fact present on iCloud too.
>
> The only glitch is that while it was doing its first sync, it identified every
> local TIFF as an image that couldn't be uploaded. Once I quite and restarted
> photos, it had stopped complaining. All the TIFF files seem to be up there
> anyway.
>
> Next step is to reconnect the other devices one-by-one and see whether iCloud
> manages to reconcile their libraries in expected or utterly bizarre ways.
>

Good luck. I forget the details now, but I did something similar a while back
and lost all the albums.

I take it you've deleted any library files on the devices to be synced? I was
never quite sure which Photos library (if any) was 'master', and have a
feeling that things got confused by slightly different libraries.

--
Cheers, Rob

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 by: D.M. Procida - Thu, 3 Feb 2022 18:32 UTC

On 3 Feb 2022 at 18:23:32 GMT, "RJH" <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

> On 3 Feb 2022 at 17:45:37 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:43:10 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
>> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:14:30 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
>>> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm half-tempted to let this library loose on iCloud as it is, just to see
>>>> what happens.
>>>
>>> I just did.
>>>
>>> Within seconds (a minute or two anyway), iCloud now shows all the albums I
>>> expected to see.
>>>
>>> I'm going to leave it like that to see what transpires over the next day or
>>> so.
>>
>> ~20 hours later it's looking OK.
>>
>> No mysterious disapearances. No strange shuffling of items.
>>
>> It seems to have recognised that every single photo in the local library was
>> in fact present on iCloud too.
>>
>> The only glitch is that while it was doing its first sync, it identified every
>> local TIFF as an image that couldn't be uploaded. Once I quite and restarted
>> photos, it had stopped complaining. All the TIFF files seem to be up there
>> anyway.
>>
>> Next step is to reconnect the other devices one-by-one and see whether iCloud
>> manages to reconcile their libraries in expected or utterly bizarre ways.
>>
>
> Good luck. I forget the details now, but I did something similar a while back
> and lost all the albums.
>
> I take it you've deleted any library files on the devices to be synced? I was
> never quite sure which Photos library (if any) was 'master', and have a
> feeling that things got confused by slightly different libraries.

Not yet, and I will first try it without doing so. Nor did I delete anything
on iCloud itself. It Just Worked.

What a long time since I've felt like saying that.

Daniele

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 by: David Brooks - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 09:54 UTC

On 03/02/2022 18:32, D.M. Procida wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2022 at 18:23:32 GMT, "RJH" <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3 Feb 2022 at 17:45:37 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
>> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:43:10 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
>>> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2 Feb 2022 at 20:14:30 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
>>>> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm half-tempted to let this library loose on iCloud as it is, just to see
>>>>> what happens.
>>>>
>>>> I just did.
>>>>
>>>> Within seconds (a minute or two anyway), iCloud now shows all the albums I
>>>> expected to see.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to leave it like that to see what transpires over the next day or
>>>> so.
>>>
>>> ~20 hours later it's looking OK.
>>>
>>> No mysterious disapearances. No strange shuffling of items.
>>>
>>> It seems to have recognised that every single photo in the local library was
>>> in fact present on iCloud too.
>>>
>>> The only glitch is that while it was doing its first sync, it identified every
>>> local TIFF as an image that couldn't be uploaded. Once I quite and restarted
>>> photos, it had stopped complaining. All the TIFF files seem to be up there
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Next step is to reconnect the other devices one-by-one and see whether iCloud
>>> manages to reconcile their libraries in expected or utterly bizarre ways.
>>>
>>
>> Good luck. I forget the details now, but I did something similar a while back
>> and lost all the albums.
>>
>> I take it you've deleted any library files on the devices to be synced? I was
>> never quite sure which Photos library (if any) was 'master', and have a
>> feeling that things got confused by slightly different libraries.
>
> Not yet, and I will first try it without doing so. Nor did I delete anything
> on iCloud itself. It Just Worked.
>
> What a long time since I've felt like saying that.

Hi Daniele

This item may go some way to explain the difficulty which you have
experienced:-

https://eclecticlight.co/2022/02/04/when-clouds-break-the-sun-doesnt-shine/#comments

Most of the time the iCloud works just fine! :-D

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 by: D.M. Procida - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 17:56 UTC

On 3 Feb 2022 at 18:32:05 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
<daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

>> I take it you've deleted any library files on the devices to be synced? I was
>> never quite sure which Photos library (if any) was 'master', and have a
>> feeling that things got confused by slightly different libraries.
>
> Not yet, and I will first try it without doing so. Nor did I delete anything
> on iCloud itself. It Just Worked.

Oh well.

All Just Worked until I also wired up my other MacBook's Photos library (this
was the original source library for the photos when I started a week ago).

Immediately, albums started being deleted across my devices. It appears that
that library is in a state such that it is able to spread its corruption
elsewhere. 24 hours later or so, it has all settled down into a broken,
unchanging state.

It looks like I'll need to start again from my backup. I'll use a blank
library everywhere else, and delete everything from iCloud.

> What a long time since I've felt like saying that.

Huh.

Daniele

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

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Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
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 by: Andy Hewitt - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 18:46 UTC

D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2022 at 18:32:05 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>> I take it you've deleted any library files on the devices to be synced? I was
>>> never quite sure which Photos library (if any) was 'master', and have a
>>> feeling that things got confused by slightly different libraries.
>>
>> Not yet, and I will first try it without doing so. Nor did I delete anything
>> on iCloud itself. It Just Worked.
>
> Oh well.
>
> All Just Worked until I also wired up my other MacBook's Photos library (this
> was the original source library for the photos when I started a week ago).
>
> Immediately, albums started being deleted across my devices. It appears that
> that library is in a state such that it is able to spread its corruption
> elsewhere. 24 hours later or so, it has all settled down into a broken,
> unchanging state.
>
> It looks like I'll need to start again from my backup. I'll use a blank
> library everywhere else, and delete everything from iCloud.

Well, I have said more than once that I started with a fresh library and
imported from scratch. I think your Aperture migrated library is probably
the cause of all your woes.

The amount of time wasted trying to fix this, you could have probably done
the fresh import, and recreated the folders and albums. It’s not exciting
work for sure, but depending on how many folders and albums you have, might
not take as long as you thought (especially if you use the Old Toad scripts
I mentioned).

I have year and events sets for 22 years now, and the initial setup wasn’t
really that bad. It also gave me another chance to run through stuff and
cull some more.

And as I said, you need to be patient with the initial curation of the
cloud system, it can easily run into days, if not weeks for a larger
library (such as mine is).

--
Andy H

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 by: D.M. Procida - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 19:04 UTC

On 4 Feb 2022 at 18:46:58 GMT, "Andy Hewitt" <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

>> It looks like I'll need to start again from my backup. I'll use a blank
>> library everywhere else, and delete everything from iCloud.
>
> Well, I have said more than once that I started with a fresh library and
> imported from scratch. I think your Aperture migrated library is probably
> the cause of all your woes.

Why do you think that?

The Photos library built from the Aperture library plus the content already
pushed to iCloud by photos behaved exactly as expected. It was only when
another device started interacting with the library that there was any odd
behaviour.

This has happened twice now. It seems to me that it's more likely to be an
unexpected iCloud reconciliation behaviour.

Daniele

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From: Davidb...@{REMOVESPAM}me.com (David Brooks)
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 by: David Brooks - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 23:43 UTC

On 04/02/2022 19:04, D.M. Procida wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2022 at 18:46:58 GMT, "Andy Hewitt" <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
>
>>> It looks like I'll need to start again from my backup. I'll use a blank
>>> library everywhere else, and delete everything from iCloud.
>>
>> Well, I have said more than once that I started with a fresh library and
>> imported from scratch. I think your Aperture migrated library is probably
>> the cause of all your woes.
>
> Why do you think that?
>
> The Photos library built from the Aperture library plus the content already
> pushed to iCloud by photos behaved exactly as expected. It was only when
> another device started interacting with the library that there was any odd
> behaviour.
>
> This has happened twice now. It seems to me that it's more likely to be an
> unexpected iCloud reconciliation behaviour.

Did you READ what I posted to you earlier?

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

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From: thewildr...@icloud.com (Andy Hewitt)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 04:58:22 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Andy Hewitt - Sat, 5 Feb 2022 04:58 UTC

D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2022 at 18:46:58 GMT, "Andy Hewitt" <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
>
>>> It looks like I'll need to start again from my backup. I'll use a blank
>>> library everywhere else, and delete everything from iCloud.
>>
>> Well, I have said more than once that I started with a fresh library and
>> imported from scratch. I think your Aperture migrated library is probably
>> the cause of all your woes.
>
> Why do you think that?

Just based on my own past experience trying the same migration process. The
library just ended up being unstable.

> The Photos library built from the Aperture library plus the content already
> pushed to iCloud by photos behaved exactly as expected. It was only when
> another device started interacting with the library that there was any odd
> behaviour.
>
> This has happened twice now. It seems to me that it's more likely to be an
> unexpected iCloud reconciliation behaviour.

It’s not expected behaviour of course. I’m only wondering if there’s some
glitch in the library from an Aperture migration that trips things up once
it starts syncing with other devices.

I’m not sure what OS’s you’re using overall, but I suspect any newer mobile
devices won’t have been around when Aperture was still in support.

--
Andy H

Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Holy shit, Photos is unreliable destructive junkware
Date: 12 Feb 2022 10:22:58 GMT
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 by: D.M. Procida - Sat, 12 Feb 2022 10:22 UTC

On 30 Jan 2022 at 18:39:07 GMT, "D.M. Procida"
<daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

> I've spent hours and hours carefully performing a migration from Aperture to
> Photos.
>
> This morning, it was all done. ~4500, all in Photos albums matching those from
> Aperture, and merged with an existing Photos library. All had been uploaded to
> iCloud, and was represented across multiple devices. There was no further
> iCloud activity taking place.
>
> At some point between then and now Photos has, without any warning that it
> would or had, deleted a very large number of those albums. There are now ~2500
> photos not in any album. All the photos seem still seem to be in the library,
> but albums are gone (on iCloud, and across multiple devices).
>
> How is this possible? What kind of software can behave like this?
>
> Albums are affected randomly, there appears to be no pattern to it.
>
> This is genuinely, truly, shit.

Right now, I seem to have iCloud/Photos in a stable state (that's about two
weeks after I first started the process).

We're talking about 30GB/4500 photos.

I started from scratch a couple more times, with different combinations of
failures.

It's really hard to pin these things down, especially in the absence of any
visibility into the black box, but I'm pretty sure that at the heart of the
failure is iCloud's database conflict reconciliation model, and its decision
to auto-manage all conflicts and merges rather than expose any gory details to
the user.

I also ran some experiments with empty databases and minimal (i.e. < 5 items)
libraries to try to uncover some behaviours. "Inconsistency" was the biggest
finding, so I can't tell you much.

For my final attempt a couple of days ago, I started from scratch once again
(empty macOS and iCoud databases) and used a different version of Photos to
take care of both processes (migration from Aperture, and upload to iCloud - I
used Photos 7.0 for both).

So far so good. The upload process was swift (a few hours) after which
multiple other devices, running different versions of Photos, were able to
acquire the content, and interact with it, in expected ways.

There was a wobble yesterday when a persistent off-by-one count inconsistency
appeared across devices and iCloud, but it has resolved itself.

I can't like Photos. The interface really is crappy. It's flashy and
superficially impressive, and fails to implement basics. It feels like an iOS
application that has been ported half-heartedly.

And I can't trust iCloud. It lacks transparency and deliberately obscures its
operations. It feels like something that's going to fuck something up without
telling you, so that you only discover the problem much later when it's really
hard to do anything about it.

It's all rather disappointing, and could have been done so much better.

Daniele

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