Caledonian Sleeper goes back into public ownership

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66012488

In message <u79p8f$hcb2$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:16:15 on Sun, 25 Jun
2023, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>Caledonian Sleeper goes back into public ownership
>
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66012488

If you throw enough money at a vanity project, people who didn't realise
the amount of subsidy involve will say "this proves public ownership of
railways is a success". [And the unions will applaud the
loss-making-jobs-for-life].

I don't fundamentally wish the sleeper ill, but to keep it running at
current fares is only possible by commuters in the Southeast paying
through the nose for their daily journeys.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u79p8f$hcb2$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:16:15 on Sun, 25 Jun
> 2023, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>> Caledonian Sleeper goes back into public ownership
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66012488
>
> If you throw enough money at a vanity project, people who didn't realise
> the amount of subsidy involve will say "this proves public ownership of
> railways is a success". [And the unions will applaud the
> loss-making-jobs-for-life].
>
> I don't fundamentally wish the sleeper ill, but to keep it running at
> current fares is only possible by commuters in the Southeast paying
> through the nose for their daily journeys.

Aren’t the sleeper losses picked up by the Scottish government? How do SE
commuters come into the equation? If anyone is paying it’s my son up in
Glasgow, where higher rate tax kicks in at £43k and is 42%

On 25/06/2023 17:35, Roland Perry wrote:
> If you throw enough money at a vanity project, people who didn't realise
> the amount of subsidy involve will say "this proves public ownership of
> railways is a success". [And the unions will applaud the
> loss-making-jobs-for-life].

That is easily shown false when the Left call for water industry in
England to be nationised as in Scotland and Wales which are hardly good
examples!

And the ferry saga drags on

BBC today "New documents spark fresh concerns over Ferguson's ferry
contract"

Also Corran ferry is now not expected back until at least August.
Everyone in the area keeping fingers crossed that the Maid of Glencoul
does not breakdown again.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 25/06/2023 17:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>> If you throw enough money at a vanity project, people who didn't realise
>> the amount of subsidy involve will say "this proves public ownership of
>> railways is a success". [And the unions will applaud the
>> loss-making-jobs-for-life].
>
>
> That is easily shown false when the Left call for water industry in
> England to be nationised as in Scotland and Wales which are hardly good
> examples!
>
> And the ferry saga drags on
>
>
> BBC today "New documents spark fresh concerns over Ferguson's ferry
> contract"
>
> Also Corran ferry is now not expected back until at least August.
> Everyone in the area keeping fingers crossed that the Maid of Glencoul
> does not breakdown again.
>
>
>

Well perhaps now they can use the SNP motor home for bustitution during
Sleeper disruption…

On 25/06/2023 18:59, Tweed wrote:
> Well perhaps now they can use the SNP motor home for bustitution during
> Sleeper disruption…

There was a good Tweet yesterday about the SNP conference. Showing a car
park full of camper vans!

On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:16:15 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>Caledonian Sleeper goes back into public ownership
>
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66012488

There's an interesting choice of words in that BBC story: "The current sleeper franchise was awarded to Serco in a deal
worth £800m and had been due to run from 2015 to 2030."

They make it look like the franchise was a generous gift to Serco, rather than the poisoned chalice it turned out to be.
It also ignores the fact that Serco was the winner from three competitive bidders (Arriva, First and Secom).

On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:59:44 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 25/06/2023 17:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> If you throw enough money at a vanity project, people who didn't realise
>>> the amount of subsidy involve will say "this proves public ownership of
>>> railways is a success". [And the unions will applaud the
>>> loss-making-jobs-for-life].
>>
>>
>> That is easily shown false when the Left call for water industry in
>> England to be nationised as in Scotland and Wales which are hardly good
>> examples!
>>
>> And the ferry saga drags on
>>
>>
>> BBC today "New documents spark fresh concerns over Ferguson's ferry
>> contract"
>>
>> Also Corran ferry is now not expected back until at least August.
>> Everyone in the area keeping fingers crossed that the Maid of Glencoul
>> does not breakdown again.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Well perhaps now they can use the SNP motor home for bustitution during
>Sleeper disruption…

Hard to believe that party are still in power. They make the Tories look like
a sane well run organisation. If Boris had been arrested a few days after
leaving power to be interviewed for 7 hours you would be able to hear the
self righteous bagpipes from north of the border on the moon. But not only
has there been barely a squeak from the Cult but surgeon hasn't even been
suspended. Unbelievable.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:59:44 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 25/06/2023 17:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> If you throw enough money at a vanity project, people who didn't realise
>>>> the amount of subsidy involve will say "this proves public ownership of
>>>> railways is a success". [And the unions will applaud the
>>>> loss-making-jobs-for-life].
>>>
>>>
>>> That is easily shown false when the Left call for water industry in
>>> England to be nationised as in Scotland and Wales which are hardly good
>>> examples!
>>>
>>> And the ferry saga drags on
>>>
>>>
>>> BBC today "New documents spark fresh concerns over Ferguson's ferry
>>> contract"
>>>
>>> Also Corran ferry is now not expected back until at least August.
>>> Everyone in the area keeping fingers crossed that the Maid of Glencoul
>>> does not breakdown again.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well perhaps now they can use the SNP motor home for bustitution during
>> Sleeper disruption…
>
> Hard to believe that party are still in power. They make the Tories look like
> a sane well run organisation. If Boris had been arrested a few days after
> leaving power to be interviewed for 7 hours you would be able to hear the
> self righteous bagpipes from north of the border on the moon. But not only
> has there been barely a squeak from the Cult but surgeon hasn't even been
> suspended. Unbelievable.

Useless actually sent her flowers when she was arrested as a suspect:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-sends-flowers-to-sturgeon-but-others-suggest-a-wreath-xh2bh5dpj

On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:11:00 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Hard to believe that party are still in power. They make the Tories look like
>
>> a sane well run organisation. If Boris had been arrested a few days after
>> leaving power to be interviewed for 7 hours you would be able to hear the
>> self righteous bagpipes from north of the border on the moon. But not only
>> has there been barely a squeak from the Cult but surgeon hasn't even been
>> suspended. Unbelievable.
>
>Useless actually sent her flowers when she was arrested as a suspect:
>
>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-sends-flowers-to-sturgeon-but-others-sug
>gest-a-wreath-xh2bh5dpj

Why arn't I surprised, he's her little boy.

There's been a nasty stink of corruption and complacency coming from edinburgh
for a long time now. No party should be in power this long, it never works and
it'll only get worse. I'm not a labour supporter but right now they're the only
hope to get this bunch of clowns out of power.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:11:00 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Hard to believe that party are still in power. They make the Tories look like
>>
>>> a sane well run organisation. If Boris had been arrested a few days after
>>> leaving power to be interviewed for 7 hours you would be able to hear the
>>> self righteous bagpipes from north of the border on the moon. But not only
>>> has there been barely a squeak from the Cult but surgeon hasn't even been
>>> suspended. Unbelievable.
>>
>> Useless actually sent her flowers when she was arrested as a suspect:
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-sends-flowers-to-sturgeon-but-others-sug
>> gest-a-wreath-xh2bh5dpj
>
> Why arn't I surprised, he's her little boy.
>
> There's been a nasty stink of corruption and complacency coming from edinburgh
> for a long time now. No party should be in power this long, it never works and
> it'll only get worse. I'm not a labour supporter but right now they're the only
> hope to get this bunch of clowns out of power.

Labour’s problem is that they are too tied to UK nationalism. The Scottish
branch can’t stray from the UK party line and by doing so they lose centre
left voters who would be keen on more independence from Westminster,
whether that’s full independence or greater devolution. That and Gordon
Brown’s asinine Vow.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 10:50:37 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:11:00 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Hard to believe that party are still in power. They make the Tories look like
>>>
>>>> a sane well run organisation. If Boris had been arrested a few days after
>>>> leaving power to be interviewed for 7 hours you would be able to hear the
>>>> self righteous bagpipes from north of the border on the moon. But not only
>>>> has there been barely a squeak from the Cult but surgeon hasn't even been
>>>> suspended. Unbelievable.
>>>
>>> Useless actually sent her flowers when she was arrested as a suspect:
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-sends-flowers-to-sturgeon-but-others-sug
>>> gest-a-wreath-xh2bh5dpj
>>
>> Why arn't I surprised, he's her little boy.
>>
>> There's been a nasty stink of corruption and complacency coming from edinburgh
>> for a long time now. No party should be in power this long, it never works and
>> it'll only get worse. I'm not a labour supporter but right now they're the only
>> hope to get this bunch of clowns out of power.
>
>Labour’s problem is that they are too tied to UK nationalism. The Scottish
>branch can’t stray from the UK party line and by doing so they lose centre
>left voters who would be keen on more independence from Westminster,
>whether that’s full independence or greater devolution. That and Gordon
>Brown’s asinine Vow.

My understanding is that Scottish Labour will, in effect, ask left-wing nationalist voters to lend them their votes next
year in support for the shared objective of getting the Tories out. That's what's up for decision next year, not
independence. Electing a Labour government will achieve this more effectively than voting SNP, possibly leading to a
hung parliament, where the Tories might be the largest party.

On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 20:52:50 +0100, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:16:15 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>Caledonian Sleeper goes back into public ownership
>>
>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66012488
>
>There's an interesting choice of words in that BBC story: "The current sleeper franchise was awarded to Serco in a deal
>worth £800m and had been due to run from 2015 to 2030."
>
>They make it look like the franchise was a generous gift to Serco, rather than the poisoned chalice it turned out to be.
>It also ignores the fact that Serco was the winner from three competitive bidders (Arriva, First and Secom).

I'm struggling with this one too. I assume 'rebase' is code for
additional payment. Given it is reported that, in the government's
view, these terms did not represent the best value for money.'
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-64802833)
does this mean Caledonian Sleepers is now underfunded? What are the
likely consequences?

Is there anything to prevent (new) Caledonian Sleepers running the
existing timetable for a year then reporting an operating loss -
potentially greater than the sum requested by Serco? Could this be a
replay of the ferry procurement scandal?

I know that responsibility for awarding and managing the contract lies
with the Scottish Ministers, but does the UK Government also fund the
services given that most of the route mileage is in England and half
the passengers must originate at Euston?

On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 10:50:37 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:11:00 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Hard to believe that party are still in power. They make the Tories look
>like
>>>
>>>> a sane well run organisation. If Boris had been arrested a few days after
>>>> leaving power to be interviewed for 7 hours you would be able to hear the
>>>> self righteous bagpipes from north of the border on the moon. But not only
>>>> has there been barely a squeak from the Cult but surgeon hasn't even been
>>>> suspended. Unbelievable.
>>>
>>> Useless actually sent her flowers when she was arrested as a suspect:
>>>
>>>
>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-sends-flowers-to-sturgeon-but-others-sug
>
>>> gest-a-wreath-xh2bh5dpj
>>
>> Why arn't I surprised, he's her little boy.
>>
>> There's been a nasty stink of corruption and complacency coming from
>edinburgh
>> for a long time now. No party should be in power this long, it never works
>and
>> it'll only get worse. I'm not a labour supporter but right now they're the
>only
>> hope to get this bunch of clowns out of power.
>
>Labour’s problem is that they are too tied to UK nationalism. The Scottish
>branch can’t stray from the UK party line and by doing so they lose centre
>left voters who would be keen on more independence from Westminster,
>whether that’s full independence or greater devolution. That and Gordon

Greater devo will just give the nationalists even more meat. Once westminster
is reduced to just defence and foreign policy for scotland its only a small step
for it to be removed from the picture altogether.

>Brown’s asinine Vow.

God knows what he was doing as Labour weren't even in power at the time.
Given New Labour are responsible for this mess in the first place its time
they all just shut up and fucked off to watch the cricket with Major. Sadly
a lot of them, particularly Blair and Campbell don't seem to have an off switch.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 20:52:50 +0100, Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:16:15 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Caledonian Sleeper goes back into public ownership
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66012488
>>
>> There's an interesting choice of words in that BBC story: "The current
>> sleeper franchise was awarded to Serco in a deal
>> worth £800m and had been due to run from 2015 to 2030."
>>
>> They make it look like the franchise was a generous gift to Serco,
>> rather than the poisoned chalice it turned out to be.
>> It also ignores the fact that Serco was the winner from three
>> competitive bidders (Arriva, First and Serco).
>
> I'm struggling with this one too. I assume 'rebase' is code for
> additional payment.

Yes, Serco was losing money on it, and wouldn't continue without higher
payments.

> Given it is reported that, in the government's
> view, these terms did not represent the best value for money.'
> (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-64802833)
> does this mean Caledonian Sleepers is now underfunded? What are the
> likely consequences?

Of late, I gather that customer satisfaction and loadings for CS have been
very good — Serco has been doing a good job. Quality is likely to slip in
the public sector, and the service might be tweaked to suit SNP MPs and
MSPs travelling to London, rather than the public.

>
> Is there anything to prevent (new) Caledonian Sleepers running the
> existing timetable for a year then reporting an operating loss -
> potentially greater than the sum requested by Serco? Could this be a
> replay of the ferry procurement scandal?

Yes, that's more than likely. The modern SNP believes in socialism, not
capitalism.

> I know that responsibility for awarding and managing the contract lies
> with the Scottish Ministers, but does the UK Government also fund the
> services given that most of the route mileage is in England and half
> the passengers must originate at Euston?
>

I don't think it gets any direct subsidy from the DfT, but it of course
benefits from the subsidy paid to NR to maintain the track and stations in
both Scotland and England. Similarly, I don't think the Scottish government
chips in to subsidise XC, LNER or Avanti.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 10:50:37 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:11:00 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hard to believe that party are still in power. They make the Tories look like
>>>>
>>>>> a sane well run organisation. If Boris had been arrested a few days after
>>>>> leaving power to be interviewed for 7 hours you would be able to hear the
>>>>> self righteous bagpipes from north of the border on the moon. But not only
>>>>> has there been barely a squeak from the Cult but surgeon hasn't even been
>>>>> suspended. Unbelievable.
>>>>
>>>> Useless actually sent her flowers when she was arrested as a suspect:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-sends-flowers-to-sturgeon-but-others-sug
>>>> gest-a-wreath-xh2bh5dpj
>>>
>>> Why arn't I surprised, he's her little boy.
>>>
>>> There's been a nasty stink of corruption and complacency coming from edinburgh
>>> for a long time now. No party should be in power this long, it never works and
>>> it'll only get worse. I'm not a labour supporter but right now they're the only
>>> hope to get this bunch of clowns out of power.
>>
>> Labour’s problem is that they are too tied to UK nationalism. The Scottish
>> branch can’t stray from the UK party line and by doing so they lose centre
>> left voters who would be keen on more independence from Westminster,
>> whether that’s full independence or greater devolution. That and Gordon
>> Brown’s asinine Vow.
>
> My understanding is that Scottish Labour will, in effect, ask left-wing
> nationalist voters to lend them their votes next
> year in support for the shared objective of getting the Tories out.
> That's what's up for decision next year, not
> independence. Electing a Labour government will achieve this more
> effectively than voting SNP, possibly leading to a
> hung parliament, where the Tories might be the largest party.

I’m sure Labour will ask but it would be ironic, possibly even duplicitous,
given how Labour have repeatedly sworn to make absolutely no agreement with
the SNP. In some ways that’s understandable, but I suspect it’s become so
ingrained that they will not get as many tactical voters as they would
like.

I don’t know what the current expectations for across Scotland for the next
Westminster and Holyrood elections are but I’m sure John Curtice would be
able to tell us.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply