I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
states:

"Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
their group."

Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a ticket
for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly bought
tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.

On 20/07/2023 18:18, Scott wrote:
> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
> states:
>
> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
> their group."
>
> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a ticket
> for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly bought
> tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.

The starting point should be whether the train company can exclude
children under 16. If they can do so lawfully, then why shouldn't they?
There are hotels that exclude children under a certain age. Why not the
same for trains?

In message <u9brc5$2qapo$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:11 on Thu, 20 Jul
2023, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>On 20/07/2023 18:18, Scott wrote:
>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>> states:
>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.

>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>> their group."

>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>
>The starting point should be whether the train company can exclude
>children under 16. If they can do so lawfully, then why shouldn't they?
>There are hotels that exclude children under a certain age. Why not the
>same for trains?

This is about Gillick Competence, a fairly recent concept (as indeed is
the entire DPA). I used to travel by train on my own (up to London even)
at the age of 11. But that was 60yrs ago, and the past is a foreign
country, where they did things differently.

Nowadays it's quite difficult to book a ticket online without revealing
any personal information, and perhaps even ticket-office bookings for
the sleeper require revealing their name. And recursively perhaps an
age.

It's a sad fact that almost all e-commerce vendors require DoB, not age,
which infringes Principle (c), viz:

adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary in relation
to the purposes for which they are processed (data minimisation);

but we are where we are.

I think I first came across this idea of refusing to process the data of
under-16's in the run-up to the 2001 general election when Labour
decided they would only allow over-16's to enrol in their new-fangled
(at the time) mailing list. But it begged the question of how they would
know, unless they first asked.

So I joined the list as <under-16-year-old@perry.co.uk>; Oh how I
laughed.

But anyway, hasn't Rees-Mogg managed to repeal the DPA yet (filthy
rotten Brussels legislation he claims it is, people don't need privacy
in his Brave New World).
--
Roland Perry

Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
> states:
>
> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
> their group."
>
> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a ticket
> for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly bought
> tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.

As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a cycling
tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting as
'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx, and
if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.

Now (4 weeks across the alps), at least his friend is 18 - I wonder what
papers I'll need to sign for him when he starts university in autumn.

Rolf

In message <u9ddot$35nia$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:17 on Fri, 21 Jul
2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>> states:
>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>> their group."

>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>
>As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
>with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a
>cycling tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting
>as 'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
>rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
>parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx,
>and if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.

I have a FOAF who makes an irregular living being a fully CRB'd
chaperone for trips involving minors. That's the law. Get over it.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:37:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u9ddot$35nia$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:17 on Fri, 21 Jul
>2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>> states:
>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>> their group."
>
>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>>ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>>bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>
>>As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
>>with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a
>>cycling tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting
>>as 'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
>>rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
>>parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx,
>>and if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.
>
>I have a FOAF who makes an irregular living being a fully CRB'd
>chaperone for trips involving minors. That's the law. Get over it.

It may not be the same in other countries, like Germany.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:37:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <u9ddot$35nia$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:17 on Fri, 21 Jul
>2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>> states:
>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>> their group."
>
>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>>ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>>bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>
>>As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
>>with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a
>>cycling tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting
>>as 'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
>>rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
>>parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx,
>>and if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.
>
>I have a FOAF who makes an irregular living being a fully CRB'd
>chaperone for trips involving minors. That's the law. Get over it.

Now that the principle is established (and you are unconcerned) do you
see this being extended to other services?

In message <2bvkbitdbtp9luuhn8prc21rcv8b1limg7@4ax.com>, at 13:44:54 on
Fri, 21 Jul 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:37:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <u9ddot$35nia$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:17 on Fri, 21 Jul
>>2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
>>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>>> states:
>>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>>> their group."
>>
>>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>>>ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>>>bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>>
>>>As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
>>>with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a
>>>cycling tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting
>>>as 'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
>>>rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
>>>parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx,
>>>and if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.
>>
>>I have a FOAF who makes an irregular living being a fully CRB'd
>>chaperone for trips involving minors. That's the law. Get over it.
>
>Now that the principle is established (and you are unconcerned) do you
>see this being extended to other services?

I am concerned at the undue attention, because I think the sleeper
service is unusual. Like camping on a train. Daytime trains are a quite
different environment. Or did you mean the Penzance sleepers?
--
Roland Perry

In message <sftkbil0tp46pij5ms360nfkdpvn24omb4@4ax.com>, at 13:12:06 on
Fri, 21 Jul 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:37:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <u9ddot$35nia$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:17 on Fri, 21 Jul
>>2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
>>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>>> states:
>>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>>> their group."
>>
>>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>>>ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>>>bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>>
>>>As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
>>>with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a
>>>cycling tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting
>>>as 'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
>>>rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
>>>parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx,
>>>and if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.
>>
>>I have a FOAF who makes an irregular living being a fully CRB'd
>>chaperone for trips involving minors. That's the law. Get over it.
>
>It may not be the same in other countries, like Germany.

<Caledonian sleeper doesn't go to Germany>

Normally, Germany is more concerned about individual rights than the UK.
But as a native, do you know different?
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:03:25 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <2bvkbitdbtp9luuhn8prc21rcv8b1limg7@4ax.com>, at 13:44:54 on
>Fri, 21 Jul 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:37:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <u9ddot$35nia$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:17 on Fri, 21 Jul
>>>2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
>>>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>>>> states:
>>>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>>>> their group."
>>>
>>>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>>>>ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>>>>bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>>>
>>>>As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
>>>>with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a
>>>>cycling tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting
>>>>as 'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
>>>>rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
>>>>parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx,
>>>>and if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.
>>>
>>>I have a FOAF who makes an irregular living being a fully CRB'd
>>>chaperone for trips involving minors. That's the law. Get over it.
>>
>>Now that the principle is established (and you are unconcerned) do you
>>see this being extended to other services?
>
>I am concerned at the undue attention, because I think the sleeper
>service is unusual. Like camping on a train. Daytime trains are a quite
>different environment. Or did you mean the Penzance sleepers?

I meant maybe an 8pm curfew so persons under 16 are not out and about
late at night or a consent form from a parent to buy a ticket. Duty of
care and all that.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 13:59:59 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <sftkbil0tp46pij5ms360nfkdpvn24omb4@4ax.com>, at 13:12:06 on
>Fri, 21 Jul 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:37:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <u9ddot$35nia$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:17 on Fri, 21 Jul
>>>2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
>>>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>>>> states:
>>>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>>>> their group."
>>>
>>>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>>>>ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>>>>bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>>>
>>>>As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
>>>>with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a
>>>>cycling tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting
>>>>as 'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
>>>>rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
>>>>parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx,
>>>>and if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.
>>>
>>>I have a FOAF who makes an irregular living being a fully CRB'd
>>>chaperone for trips involving minors. That's the law. Get over it.
>>
>>It may not be the same in other countries, like Germany.
>
><Caledonian sleeper doesn't go to Germany>
>
>Normally, Germany is more concerned about individual rights than the UK.
>But as a native, do you know different?

You were responding to Rolf, who's German. I'm not.

On 21/07/2023 06:41, Roland Perry wrote:
> This is about Gillick Competence, a fairly recent concept (as indeed is
> the entire DPA). I used to travel by train on my own (up to London even)
> at the age of 11. But that was 60yrs ago, and the past is a foreign
> country, where they did things differently.

I wonder if L P Hartley knew when he wrote that opening sentence of The
Go-Between how widely it would be quoted.

On 22/07/2023 11:56, NY wrote:
> On 21/07/2023 06:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>> This is about Gillick Competence, a fairly recent concept (as indeed
>> is the entire DPA). I used to travel by train on my own (up to London
>> even) at the age of 11. But that was 60yrs ago, and the past is a
>> foreign country, where they did things differently.
>
> I wonder if L P Hartley knew when he wrote that opening sentence of The
> Go-Between how widely it would be quoted.

Ditto Arthur O'Shaughnessy: "the movers and shakers"

Sounds like a modernism - but it isn't !
PA

On 20/07/2023 18:37, GB wrote:
> On 20/07/2023 18:18, Scott wrote:
>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>> states:
>>
>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>> their group."
>>
>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a ticket
>> for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly bought
>> tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>
>
> The starting point should be whether the train company can exclude
> children under 16. If they can do so lawfully, then why shouldn't they?
> There are hotels that exclude children under a certain age. Why not the
> same for trains?
>

It would be a nonsense idea to exclude young children from trains - what
about the many who use trains to get to & from schools ??

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20/07/2023 18:37, GB wrote:
>> On 20/07/2023 18:18, Scott wrote:
>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>> states:
>>>
>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>> their group."
>>>
>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a ticket
>>> for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly bought
>>> tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>
>>
>> The starting point should be whether the train company can exclude
>> children under 16. If they can do so lawfully, then why shouldn't they?
>> There are hotels that exclude children under a certain age. Why not the
>> same for trains?
>>
>
> It would be a nonsense idea to exclude young children from trains - what
> about the many who use trains to get to & from schools ??

I think the issue is about overnight journeys or hotel stays.

On 23/07/2023 16:35, Recliner wrote:
> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 20/07/2023 18:37, GB wrote:
>>> On 20/07/2023 18:18, Scott wrote:
>>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>>> states:
>>>>
>>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>>> their group."
>>>>
>>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a ticket
>>>> for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly bought
>>>> tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>>
>>>
>>> The starting point should be whether the train company can exclude
>>> children under 16. If they can do so lawfully, then why shouldn't they?
>>> There are hotels that exclude children under a certain age. Why not the
>>> same for trains?
>>>
>>
>> It would be a nonsense idea to exclude young children from trains - what
>> about the many who use trains to get to & from schools ??
>
> I think the issue is about overnight journeys or hotel stays.

The issue is thin walls in sleepers, with almost zero sound insulation.
Young kids get enough sex education at school ...

On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 17:43:59 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
wrote:

>On 23/07/2023 16:35, Recliner wrote:
>> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 20/07/2023 18:37, GB wrote:
>>>> On 20/07/2023 18:18, Scott wrote:
>>>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>>>> states:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>>>> their group."
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a ticket
>>>>> for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly bought
>>>>> tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The starting point should be whether the train company can exclude
>>>> children under 16. If they can do so lawfully, then why shouldn't they?
>>>> There are hotels that exclude children under a certain age. Why not the
>>>> same for trains?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would be a nonsense idea to exclude young children from trains - what
>>> about the many who use trains to get to & from schools ??
>>
>> I think the issue is about overnight journeys or hotel stays.
>
>The issue is thin walls in sleepers, with almost zero sound insulation.
>Young kids get enough sex education at school ...
>
Or in public places.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couple-accused-disturbing-public-sex-27698763

(and there is bog all sound insulation between some neighbouring
houses/flats)

In message <0eqqbitm4hdu2jptflevqo5q5m9j234ad7@4ax.com>, at 19:01:23 on
Sun, 23 Jul 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 17:43:59 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On 23/07/2023 16:35, Recliner wrote:
>>> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 20/07/2023 18:37, GB wrote:
>>>>> On 20/07/2023 18:18, Scott wrote:
>>>>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>>>>> states:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>>>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>>>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>>>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>>>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>>>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>>>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>>>>> their group."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a ticket
>>>>>> for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly bought
>>>>>> tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The starting point should be whether the train company can exclude
>>>>> children under 16. If they can do so lawfully, then why shouldn't they?
>>>>> There are hotels that exclude children under a certain age. Why not the
>>>>> same for trains?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would be a nonsense idea to exclude young children from trains - what
>>>> about the many who use trains to get to & from schools ??
>>>
>>> I think the issue is about overnight journeys or hotel stays.
>>
>>The issue is thin walls in sleepers, with almost zero sound insulation.
>>Young kids get enough sex education at school ...
>>
>Or in public places.
>https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couple-accused-disturbing-public-
>sex-27698763

This could be worded better:

<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-officer-arrests-sex-
predator-lewisham-train-b970520.html>

An off-duty police officer wrestled a sex predator to the floor and
arrested him after he committed a sex act in front of a teenage train
passenger.

And oddly enough another local newspaper published this yesterday:

"Drunk man fined after having sex with prostitute behind Swindon
Iceland"

To which someone had commented:

Quite apart from confirming what many people feared about Swindon,
that headline confirms what I feared about the standard of modern
sub-editors. He wasn't drunk when he was fined, at least I assume
not, plus I don't think that Swindon is anywhere near Reykjavík.

--
Roland Perry

Am 21.07.2023 um 15:20 schrieb Scott:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:03:25 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <2bvkbitdbtp9luuhn8prc21rcv8b1limg7@4ax.com>, at 13:44:54 on
>> Fri, 21 Jul 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:37:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <u9ddot$35nia$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:17 on Fri, 21 Jul
>>>> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>> Am 20.07.2023 um 19:18 schrieb Scott:
>>>>>> I have received the (new) Caledonian Sleeper privacy policy, which
>>>>>> states:
>>>>>> "Our services may be booked directly and used by individuals aged 16
>>>>>> years or over. However, (with exception of our CCTV cameras), we do
>>>>>> not directly or knowingly collect or solicit personal information from
>>>>>> anyone under the age of 16 or knowingly allow such persons to provide
>>>>>> us with their personal information without parent or guardian consent.
>>>>>> Parent, school and tours (or equivalent) may book to travel with us
>>>>>> and may provide limited information about the children travelling with
>>>>>> their group."
>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any rule that require a person to be over 16 to buy a
>>>>>> ticket for the sleeper (or indeed for any other train)? I certainly
>>>>>> bought tickets and travelled on the train when I was under 16.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I understand, ths issue is not with the 'train ticket' but
>>>>> with the 'overnight stay'. When my son and his friend went on a
>>>>> cycling tour with camping at age 15, they had to find an adult acting
>>>>> as 'temporary guardian' for each night (when they didn't, they slept
>>>>> rough). When they went at age 16, a piece of paper signed by the
>>>>> parents that they were allowed to embark on a multi-day trip to xxx,
>>>>> and if in doubt please phone the parents at mobile number yyy.
>>>>
>>>> I have a FOAF who makes an irregular living being a fully CRB'd
>>>> chaperone for trips involving minors. That's the law. Get over it.
>>>
>>> Now that the principle is established (and you are unconcerned) do you
>>> see this being extended to other services?
>>
>> I am concerned at the undue attention, because I think the sleeper
>> service is unusual. Like camping on a train. Daytime trains are a quite
>> different environment. Or did you mean the Penzance sleepers?
>
> I meant maybe an 8pm curfew so persons under 16 are not out and about
> late at night or a consent form from a parent to buy a ticket. Duty of
> care and all that.

Legally, children are allowed to travel 'alone' in Germany but it is
recommended to document parental consent (when my daughter was 13, she
and her friends travelled unaccompanied by train form Heidelberg to a
holiday camp on Amrum, including an overnight stopover in an inn next to
the ferry pier; the inn was fine with the parents dodumenting consent by
having booked the room).
Children below 16 in Germany are only allowed to go to pub/restaurants
'for the purpose of consuming a meal' with an 11pm curfew.

Rolf

Our local rag published a story about a flasher, who was described as
having "short, dark, curly hair".

In message <u9lk2h$kht1$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:52 on Mon, 24 Jul
2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:

>Children below 16 in Germany are only allowed to go to pub/restaurants
>'for the purpose of consuming a meal' with an 11pm curfew.

Pubs I can understand (and it as like that in England 30yrs ago. But
restaurants? Does McDonalds not have any outlets in Germany, where a
child is not allowed in only to have a milkshake?
--
Roland Perry

On 24/07/2023 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u9lk2h$kht1$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:52 on Mon, 24 Jul
> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>
>> Children below 16 in Germany are only allowed to go to pub/restaurants
>> 'for the purpose of consuming a meal' with an 11pm curfew.
>
> Pubs I can understand (and it as like that in England 30yrs ago. But
> restaurants? Does McDonalds not have any outlets in Germany, where a
> child is not allowed in only to have a milkshake?

I think the invisible word is licensed. MacDonalds and other fast-food
restaurants don't normally serve alcohol.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 24.07.23 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 24/07/2023 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <u9lk2h$kht1$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:52 on Mon, 24 Jul
>> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>
>>> Children below 16 in Germany are only allowed to go to
>>> pub/restaurants 'for the purpose of consuming a meal' with an 11pm
>>> curfew.
>>
>> Pubs I can understand (and it as like that in England 30yrs ago. But
>> restaurants? Does McDonalds not have any outlets in Germany, where a
>> child is not allowed in only to have a milkshake?
>
> I think the invisible word is licensed. MacDonalds and other fast-food
> restaurants don't normally serve alcohol.

They do in Germany.

Robin

On 24/07/2023 16:29, Bob wrote:
> On 24.07.23 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 24/07/2023 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <u9lk2h$kht1$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:52 on Mon, 24 Jul
>>> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Children below 16 in Germany are only allowed to go to
>>>> pub/restaurants 'for the purpose of consuming a meal' with an 11pm
>>>> curfew.
>>>
>>> Pubs I can understand (and it as like that in England 30yrs ago. But
>>> restaurants? Does McDonalds not have any outlets in Germany, where a
>>> child is not allowed in only to have a milkshake?
>>
>> I think the invisible word is licensed. MacDonalds and other fast-food
>> restaurants don't normally serve alcohol.
>
> They do in Germany.
>

Hadn't noticed but then I avoid MacDonalds like the plague in any country.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Am 24.07.2023 um 17:22 schrieb Graeme Wall:
> On 24/07/2023 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <u9lk2h$kht1$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:52 on Mon, 24 Jul
>> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>
>>> Children below 16 in Germany are only allowed to go to
>>> pub/restaurants 'for the purpose of consuming a meal' with an 11pm
>>> curfew.
>>
>> Pubs I can understand (and it as like that in England 30yrs ago. But
>> restaurants? Does McDonalds not have any outlets in Germany, where a
>> child is not allowed in only to have a milkshake?
>
> I think the invisible word is licensed. MacDonalds and other fast-food
> restaurants don't normally serve alcohol.

Might be (even though such invisible words are extremely rare in German
law). Even when I extend a 'meal' so far as to include a milkshake,
otherwise a 'Children birthday party' on the premises of a fast-food
restaurant would be illegal.