I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
be out of place on a light railway very impressive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ

I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
an 08 would manage it.

On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>
> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
> an 08 would manage it.
>

I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
thing then.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>
>I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>an 08 would manage it.

It's a Bo-Bo with short bogies, so no problem. A class 08, with its 3.05m wheelbase, would probably have more problems
than that loco on a tight bend.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>
>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>> an 08 would manage it.
>>
>
>I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>thing then.

A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.

On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>
>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>
>>
>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>> depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>> back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>> thing then.
>
> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.

Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed the
Southampton docks lines.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>
>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>>> depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>>> back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>>> thing then.
>>
>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.
>
> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed the
> Southampton docks lines.
>
The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually fairly
long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most common
distance.
The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the 33 at
29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such as the
class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them useful on the
clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp curves .
Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the main
lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern main line
steam Locos .
They didn’t venture on the tight parts once the preserve of short wheelbase
steamers like the USA
tanks which were replaced by 07 Diesel shunters for the decade such lines
were still used.
This table sums most of our classes wheelbase dimensions.

<http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html>

The GP40 has 10ft wheelbase bogies at 34ft centre so unless there are other
factors that limit the bogie rotation quite a few UK classes should be able
to follow one around a curve.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>>>> depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>>>> back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>>>> thing then.
>>>
>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.
>>
>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed the
>> Southampton docks lines.
>>
> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually fairly
> long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most common
> distance.
> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the 33 at
> 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such as the
> class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them useful on the
> clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp curves .

Does the bogie spacing distance actually matter, as long ad the bogies are
able to pivot enough?

> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the main
> lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern main line
> steam Locos .

That's the key point: any Bo-Bo loco can cope with tight curves better than
almost any steam loco, apart from tiny tanks.

> They didn’t venture on the tight parts once the preserve of short wheelbase
> steamers like the USA
> tanks which were replaced by 07 Diesel shunters for the decade such lines
> were still used.
> This table sums most of our classes wheelbase dimensions.
>
> <http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html>
>
> The GP40 has 10ft wheelbase bogies at 34ft centre so unless there are other
> factors that limit the bogie rotation quite a few UK classes should be able
> to follow one around a curve.

Historically, yes, but most operational UK freight locos are Co-Co, with
much longer bogies. For example, the ubiquitous class 66s have 13'7"
wheelbase bogies. From the BR era, a class 47 is 14'6".

On 31/07/2023 17:29, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>
>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>> an 08 would manage it.
>
> It's a Bo-Bo with short bogies, so no problem. A class 08, with its 3.05m wheelbase, would probably have more problems
> than that loco on a tight bend.

In UK, that sort of service would have been an early target for
Marples/Beeching closures......

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 23:50:08 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the 33 at
>> 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such as the
>> class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them useful on the
>> clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp curves .
>
>Does the bogie spacing distance actually matter, as long ad the bogies are
>able to pivot enough?

Depends how close stuff is to the track.

On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 08:56:43 +0100, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 31/07/2023 17:29, Recliner wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>
>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>
>> It's a Bo-Bo with short bogies, so no problem. A class 08, with its 3.05m wheelbase, would probably have more problems
>> than that loco on a tight bend.
>
>In UK, that sort of service would have been an early target for
>Marples/Beeching closures......
>
Is it possible it could be owned by the brewery?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 08:56:43 +0100, Bevan Price
> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 31/07/2023 17:29, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>
>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>
>>> It's a Bo-Bo with short bogies, so no problem. A class 08, with its
>>> 3.05m wheelbase, would probably have more problems
>>> than that loco on a tight bend.
>>
>> In UK, that sort of service would have been an early target for
>> Marples/Beeching closures......
>>
> Is it possible it could be owned by the brewery?
>

It didn't appear to be.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 23:50:08 +0000, Recliner wrote:

> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which
>>>>>> wouldn't be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of
>>>>>> radius. Maybe an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old
>>>>> loco depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47
>>>>> negotiating them back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately
>>>>> video cameras weren't a thing then.
>>>>
>>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a
>>>> GP40.
>>>
>>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed
>>> the Southampton docks lines.
>>>
>> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually
>> fairly long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most
>> common distance.
>> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the
>> 33 at 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such
>> as the class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them
>> useful on the clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp
>> curves .
>
> Does the bogie spacing distance actually matter, as long ad the bogies
> are able to pivot enough?
>
>> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the
>> main lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern
>> main line steam Locos .
>
> That's the key point: any Bo-Bo loco can cope with tight curves better
> than almost any steam loco, apart from tiny tanks.
....

On my ancient toy trains the three-coupled engines had no flanges on the
middle set of wheels to accommodate the curves! Did it ever happen with
real steam locos meant for tight curves?

nib

nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 23:50:08 +0000, Recliner wrote:
>
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which
>>>>>>> wouldn't be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of
>>>>>>> radius. Maybe an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old
>>>>>> loco depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47
>>>>>> negotiating them back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately
>>>>>> video cameras weren't a thing then.
>>>>>
>>>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a
>>>>> GP40.
>>>>
>>>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed
>>>> the Southampton docks lines.
>>>>
>>> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually
>>> fairly long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most
>>> common distance.
>>> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the
>>> 33 at 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such
>>> as the class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them
>>> useful on the clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp
>>> curves .
>>
>> Does the bogie spacing distance actually matter, as long ad the bogies
>> are able to pivot enough?
>>
>>> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the
>>> main lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern
>>> main line steam Locos .
>>
>> That's the key point: any Bo-Bo loco can cope with tight curves better
>> than almost any steam loco, apart from tiny tanks.
> ...
>
> On my ancient toy trains the three-coupled engines had no flanges on the
> middle set of wheels to accommodate the curves! Did it ever happen with
> real steam locos meant for tight curves?
>

Yes, for example:
https://thewebtrain.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/92203-black-prince/

But that causes other problems:

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/9f-why-does-not-having-a-flange-on-the-centre-wheels-stop-it-being-mainlined.321132/

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 08:56:43 +0100, Bevan Price
> > <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> In UK, that sort of service would have been an early target for
> >> Marples/Beeching closures......
> >>
> > Is it possible it could be owned by the brewery?
> >
>
> It didn't appear to be.

The street track is the trunk of a network of branches that connect a lot of
industrial sites across Utica, and has been there since 1860s. Some
history:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI3SlZpVU1E

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 08:56:43 +0100, Bevan Price
>>> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> In UK, that sort of service would have been an early target for
>>>> Marples/Beeching closures......
>>>>
>>> Is it possible it could be owned by the brewery?
>>>
>>
>> It didn't appear to be.
>
> The street track is the trunk of a network of branches that connect a lot of
> industrial sites across Utica, and has been there since 1860s. Some
> history:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI3SlZpVU1E
>

Thanks. Those little trains screech even on straight and level tracks!

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>>>>> depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>>>>> back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>>>>> thing then.
>>>>
>>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.
>>>
>>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed the
>>> Southampton docks lines.
>>>
>> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually fairly
>> long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most common
>> distance.
>> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the 33 at
>> 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such as the
>> class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them useful on the
>> clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp curves .
>
> Does the bogie spacing distance actually matter, as long ad the bogies are
> able to pivot enough?
>

The curve through the building in the video has a platform on the inner
side; longer bogie spacing will increase the in-swing into that area.

>> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the main
>> lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern main line
>> steam Locos .
>
> That's the key point: any Bo-Bo loco can cope with tight curves better than
> almost any steam loco, apart from tiny tanks.
>

Plus the various articulated steam locomotives designed for specific tasks.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 01/08/2023 10:43, nib wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 23:50:08 +0000, Recliner wrote:
>
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which
>>>>>>> wouldn't be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of
>>>>>>> radius. Maybe an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old
>>>>>> loco depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47
>>>>>> negotiating them back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately
>>>>>> video cameras weren't a thing then.
>>>>>
>>>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a
>>>>> GP40.
>>>>
>>>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed
>>>> the Southampton docks lines.
>>>>
>>> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually
>>> fairly long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most
>>> common distance.
>>> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the
>>> 33 at 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such
>>> as the class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them
>>> useful on the clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp
>>> curves .
>>
>> Does the bogie spacing distance actually matter, as long ad the bogies
>> are able to pivot enough?
>>
>>> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the
>>> main lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern
>>> main line steam Locos .
>>
>> That's the key point: any Bo-Bo loco can cope with tight curves better
>> than almost any steam loco, apart from tiny tanks.
> ...
>
> On my ancient toy trains the three-coupled engines had no flanges on the
> middle set of wheels to accommodate the curves! Did it ever happen with
> real steam locos meant for tight curves?
>

The 9F 2-10-0s had flangeless centre drivers I think.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 11:02:59 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>>>>>> depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>>>>>> back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>>>>>> thing then.
>>>>>
>>>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.
>>>>
>>>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed the
>>>> Southampton docks lines.
>>>>
>>> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually fairly
>>> long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most common
>>> distance.
>>> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the 33 at
>>> 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such as the
>>> class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them useful on the
>>> clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp curves .
>>
>> Does the bogie spacing distance actually matter, as long ad the bogies are
>> able to pivot enough?
>>
>
>The curve through the building in the video has a platform on the inner
>side; longer bogie spacing will increase the in-swing into that area.

Yes, the building appears to have been constructed to exactly suit the loco and wagon. But in the open, would bogie
spacing matter?

>
>>> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the main
>>> lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern main line
>>> steam Locos .
>>
>> That's the key point: any Bo-Bo loco can cope with tight curves better than
>> almost any steam loco, apart from tiny tanks.
>>
>
>Plus the various articulated steam locomotives designed for specific tasks.

I wonder if even an articulated steam loco could get round the tight bends a Bo-Bo diesel with short bogies can manage?

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>>>> depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>>>> back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>>>> thing then.
>>>
>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.
>>
>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed the
>> Southampton docks lines.
>>
> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually fairly
> long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most common
> distance.
> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the 33 at
> 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such as the
> class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them useful on the
> clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp curves .
> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the main
> lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern main line
> steam Locos .
> They didn’t venture on the tight parts once the preserve of short wheelbase
> steamers like the USA
> tanks which were replaced by 07 Diesel shunters for the decade such lines
> were still used.
> This table sums most of our classes wheelbase dimensions.
>
> <http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html>
>
> The GP40 has 10ft wheelbase bogies at 34ft centre so unless there are other
> factors that limit the bogie rotation quite a few UK classes should be able
> to follow one around a curve.
>

Taking a **very** rough guess from google maps, it looks around a 50m
radius curve, or ~2.5 chains. The two tightest equivalents I can think of
OTTOMH in the UK, Dinting Station and St Philips Marsh, both look **very**
roughly 150m radius.

Meanwhile a Google search turned up this, from an old thread on RMWeb
forum:

"The absolute minimum curve for main line use was approximately four and a
half chains, as per Iain Rice's Railway Modeling The Realistic Way.
The usual minimum curve for main line locomotives was 6 chains, as per the
same source.
Small pannier tanks like the 136X class and the Class 08/09s had a minimum
radius of 3 and a half chains.
The Class 03/04s had a minimum radius of 2 chains and the Class 02 a
minimum of only one! Suffice it to say these were extremes."

Wikipedia has a page about minimum curve radii which isn't particularly
useful other than telling us that the Bernina line has 45m radius, Cromford
and High Peak (and Welsh Highland) 50m, Central Line 61m and "North
American Rail Network, Absolute minimum radius; not on lines for general
service" is 87m radius.

Most freight wagons have (or had) minimum curve radius marked on them,
IIRC; next time I happen to see a rake of wagons in a convenient place,
I'll try to remember to check what they say.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 11:02:59 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>>>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>>>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>>>>>>> depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>>>>>>> back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>>>>>>> thing then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.
>>>>>
>>>>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed the
>>>>> Southampton docks lines.
>>>>>
>>>> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually fairly
>>>> long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most common
>>>> distance.
>>>> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the 33 at
>>>> 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such as the
>>>> class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them useful on the
>>>> clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp curves .
>>>
>>> Does the bogie spacing distance actually matter, as long ad the bogies are
>>> able to pivot enough?
>>>
>>
>> The curve through the building in the video has a platform on the inner
>> side; longer bogie spacing will increase the in-swing into that area.
>
> Yes, the building appears to have been constructed to exactly suit the
> loco and wagon. But in the open, would bogie
> spacing matter?
>
>>
>>>> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the main
>>>> lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern main line
>>>> steam Locos .
>>>
>>> That's the key point: any Bo-Bo loco can cope with tight curves better than
>>> almost any steam loco, apart from tiny tanks.
>>>
>>
>> Plus the various articulated steam locomotives designed for specific tasks.
>
> I wonder if even an articulated steam loco could get round the tight
> bends a Bo-Bo diesel with short bogies can manage?
>

Shays and Double Fairlies were designed pretty much to do just that;
0-4-0+0-4-0 Garratts should manage it too. Mallets etc. would struggle
because the rear power unit is rigid to the boiler.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 01/08/2023 09:39, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 08:56:43 +0100, Bevan Price
> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 31/07/2023 17:29, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>
>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>
>>> It's a Bo-Bo with short bogies, so no problem. A class 08, with its 3.05m wheelbase, would probably have more problems
>>> than that loco on a tight bend.
>>
>> In UK, that sort of service would have been an early target for
>> Marples/Beeching closures......
>>
> Is it possible it could be owned by the brewery?

It could be - but it would be not much use if the main line connection
had been closed.

Loco + a single wagon was the type of trip working that Beeching wanted
to get rid of.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 08:56:43 +0100, Bevan Price
> >>> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> In UK, that sort of service would have been an early target for
> >>>> Marples/Beeching closures......
> >>>>
> >>> Is it possible it could be owned by the brewery?
> >>>
> >>
> >> It didn't appear to be.
> >
> > The street track is the trunk of a network of branches that connect a lot of
> > industrial sites across Utica, and has been there since 1860s. Some
> > history:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI3SlZpVU1E
> >
>
> Thanks. Those little trains screech even on straight and level tracks!

I'm surprised the locals put up with the noise (especially all the horn
blasts), but if it's been there for 160 years...

Turns out he's done a drone video of a parallel route:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE1--PWRihg&t=0s

and you can follow it here:
https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=standard&lat=43.09176979236114&lon=-75.24003982543945&zoom=13

The brewery line on Schluyer Street is in yellow, which actually connects
Utica with Binghampton (as well as industrial customers). The drone is
following the disused route marked 'Utica Branch' (ex NY, Ontario & Western)
which goes parallel for a bit and then merges with the NYS&W south of
Schluyer St, before diverging again later on.

You can see the kind of industrial places there are, although not so many of
them seem to be rail connected any more.

There's another video of the line that cuts straight across south Utica NE/SW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BWjS9otgX8&t=7s
which has no traces on the ground beyond some electrical poles.

This kind of drone video is really handy in understanding historical lines
in a way you couldn't from the map.

Theo

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 31/07/2023 17:31, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:21:55 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 31/07/2023 16:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> I find the fact that a full size US loco can make this curve which wouldn't
>>>>>> be out of place on a light railway very impressive:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Em_OtLhEQ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't imagine a mainline british loco managing this sort of radius. Maybe
>>>>>> an 08 would manage it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I seem to remember there were some pretty sharp curves into the old loco
>>>>> depot at Kings Cross. The sound of a brand new Class 47 negotiating them
>>>>> back in 1962 was fairly deafening. Unfortunately video cameras weren't a
>>>>> thing then.
>>>>
>>>> A class 47 would obviously have more problems on a tight curve than a GP40.
>>>
>>> Quite I would imagine a Class 33 would cope, they certainly managed the
>>> Southampton docks lines.
>>>
>> The class 33’s distance of 10ft between the bogie axles is actually fairly
>> long compared to other UK Bo-Bo locos with 8ft 6” being the most common
>> distance.
>> The measurement between the bogie pivots must also be considered ,the 33 at
>> 29ft isn’t alone at that but some were considerably shorter such as the
>> class 22’s with 8ft 6” bogies 23ft apart which made them useful on the
>> clay lines in Cornwall and Devon which had some sharp curves .
>> Yes the 33’s were frequent visitors to the docks but generally on the main
>> lines to the passenger terminals a path already trod by Southern main line
>> steam Locos .
>> They didn’t venture on the tight parts once the preserve of short wheelbase
>> steamers like the USA
>> tanks which were replaced by 07 Diesel shunters for the decade such lines
>> were still used.
>> This table sums most of our classes wheelbase dimensions.
>>
>> <http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html>
>>
>> The GP40 has 10ft wheelbase bogies at 34ft centre so unless there are other
>> factors that limit the bogie rotation quite a few UK classes should be able
>> to follow one around a curve.
>>
>
> Taking a **very** rough guess from google maps, it looks around a 50m
> radius curve, or ~2.5 chains. The two tightest equivalents I can think of
> OTTOMH in the UK, Dinting Station and St Philips Marsh, both look **very**
> roughly 150m radius.

Might there be industrial or dock lines with tighter curves in the UK (ie,
the equivalent of the brewery siding in the video)?

>
> Meanwhile a Google search turned up this, from an old thread on RMWeb
> forum:
>
> "The absolute minimum curve for main line use was approximately four and a
> half chains, as per Iain Rice's Railway Modeling The Realistic Way.
> The usual minimum curve for main line locomotives was 6 chains, as per the
> same source.
> Small pannier tanks like the 136X class and the Class 08/09s had a minimum
> radius of 3 and a half chains.
> The Class 03/04s had a minimum radius of 2 chains and the Class 02 a
> minimum of only one! Suffice it to say these were extremes."

So a class 08 probably wouldn't have been able to get into that brewery?

>
> Wikipedia has a page about minimum curve radii which isn't particularly
> useful other than telling us that the Bernina line has 45m radius, Cromford
> and High Peak (and Welsh Highland) 50m, Central Line 61m

So the Central Line has the tightest bend(s) on a UK standard gauge
railway? Presumably it's on the westbound track just to the west of
Shepherd's Bush.

> and "North American Rail Network, Absolute minimum radius; not on lines for general
> service" is 87m radius.
>
> Most freight wagons have (or had) minimum curve radius marked on them,
> IIRC; next time I happen to see a rake of wagons in a convenient place,
> I'll try to remember to check what they say.

I've never noticed that!

On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:26:34 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Wikipedia has a page about minimum curve radii which isn't particularly
>> useful other than telling us that the Bernina line has 45m radius, Cromford
>> and High Peak (and Welsh Highland) 50m, Central Line 61m
>
>So the Central Line has the tightest bend(s) on a UK standard gauge
>railway? Presumably it's on the westbound track just to the west of
>Shepherd's Bush.

If you discount street tram systems then I would imagine the DLR would win
any minimum curve radius competition in the UK.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:26:34 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Wikipedia has a page about minimum curve radii which isn't particularly
>>> useful other than telling us that the Bernina line has 45m radius, Cromford
>>> and High Peak (and Welsh Highland) 50m, Central Line 61m
>>
>> So the Central Line has the tightest bend(s) on a UK standard gauge
>> railway? Presumably it's on the westbound track just to the west of
>> Shepherd's Bush.
>
> If you discount street tram systems then I would imagine the DLR would win
> any minimum curve radius competition in the UK.

Yes, 38m.