On 07/08/2023 17:36, Tweed wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 15:41:29 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 16:14:44 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <uaqo1s$2rrft$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:28:44 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <uaq64u$2p0u5$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:23:10 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <uapn11$12ac$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 03:05:05 on Mon, 7 Aug 2023,
>>>>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> According to Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Purchased a ticket on the GWR site, collected from a GWR machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ticket was for Templecombe/Waterloo - wholly South Western Railway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do I claim from GWR or SWR?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Looks like you claim from the company that was supposed to get you
>>>>>>>>>> there on time. Try here:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/delay-repay
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the ticket acquisition is irrelevant (you wouldn't claim on The
>>>>>>>>> Trainline if you bought from them).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The OP didn?t state he had been delayed. It is possible that he was unable
>>>>>>>> to travel (eg line closure). In that case don?t you claim from the ticket
>>>>>>>> vendor?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course not. You claim from the TOC whose train was cancelled. And in
>>>>>>> turn they might claim on Network Rail. It's nothing to do with the
>>>>>>> travel agent you booked your ticket through, even if that travel agent
>>>>>>> also happens to be a TOC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I used to buy most of mine through Hull Trains, because they had the
>>>>>>> most helpful website, but I've changed allegiance to an independent
>>>>>>> site.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well you?d be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/compensation-and-refunds/#" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/compensation-and-refunds/#
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If your train journey is delayed or cancelled you may be
>>>>>
>>>>> may be (or do they mean "might be").
>>>>>
>>>>>> entitled to a full refund from the retailer of your ticket, or
>>>>>> compensation from the train company that caused the delay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Refunds
>>>>>> If your train is delayed or cancelled and you choose not to travel, your
>>>>>> unused ticket can be refunded without any fees by the original retailer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compensation
>>>>>> If you are travelling and arrive late at your destination due to a
>>>>>> cancelled or delayed service, you may be able to claim compensation. You
>>>>>> will need to request compensation directly from your train company.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, an assumption you bought the ticket from the TOC operating the
>>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> If indeed there is only one TOC involved. Otherwise, are you
>>>> suggesting it is the responsiblity of the passenger to determine
>>>> liability between different companies?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It’s fairly simple:
>>> If journey not started seek refund from ticket seller
>>
>> I think you are right about Cancellation: "If your train is delayed or
>> cancelled and you choose not to travel, your unused ticket can be
>> refunded without any fees by the original retailer. If you bought your
>> ticket from a train company, you can find their contact information on
>> our Find a Train Company page."
>>
>>> If journey started seek delay repay from the train operator that first
>>> caused the delay.
>>
>> You have overlooked the distinction between Compensation ("If you are
>> travelling and arrive late at your destination due to a cancelled or
>> delayed service, you may be able to claim compensation. You will need
>> to request compensation directly from your train company") and Delay
>> Repay ("Delay Repay is a nationwide scheme that makes it easier for
>> you to get compensation for delayed train journeys. If you are delayed
>> for any reason when you travel on a participating National Rail
>> service you can claim Delay Repay. The delay is calculated against
>> either the normal timetable, or an amended timetable that is published
>> in advance (for example during planned engineering works at
>> weekends)").
>>
>> References taken from
>> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/compensation-and-refunds/
>>>
>>> “First caused delay” can in certain cases be complicated.
>>
>> Indeed, and I would suggest this is for the industry not the passenger
>> to decide.
>>
>
> Delay repay is a formalised subset of compensation. It’s supposed to make
> things easier for the passenger, but as there is no central clearing house
> for claims we are left with the unsatisfactory situation of working out who
> to aim the claim at.
>
> There are other bits of compensation, such as you had to get a taxi for the
> last leg or stay overnight in a hotel and the railway had failed to pay for
> this directly, but that’s getting into the weeds.

This is covered by the requirement to get you to your destination. I
just travel as far as I can by train and then get the duty station
manager to arrange a taxi.

I once had a duty station manager try to hide from me but BTP were more
than helpful and almost frog marched him to me and stayed with my until
my taxi was arranged.

On 07/08/2023 17:55, Peter Johnson wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Aug 2023 16:03:49 +0100, Scott
> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> The formula I use is to claim is to the first ToC responsible for a
>>> missed connection or the ToC that gets me to my destination late. It's
>>> not failed yet.
>>
>> Do you get the payment from your TOC of choice? I understood there was
>> a system to exchange claims between TOCs if they were (considered to
>> be) submitted to the wrong one.
>
> Ha! A few weeks ago I made a claim off South Eastern that should have
> gone to Southern. (I didn't know that the train that had been
> cancelled and replaced by a bus was operated by Southern because I
> never saw it.)
> South Eastern promptly told me I should have claimed off Southern and
> that they had forwarded the claim. A few days later Southern told me
> that they had received the claim but required me to start again on
> their website, which I did.
> When I started reading this thread I was going to say 'If you get it
> wrong they will tell you,' which still stands.

There are certain tickets you cannot enter on a website such as rangers
or rovers or some ToCs don't allow entry of split tickets so just email
in a claim.

In message <j532dih8vtfakaapi073rs94ur7o5s8n55@4ax.com>, at 16:29:06 on
Mon, 7 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 16:14:44 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <uaqo1s$2rrft$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:28:44 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uaq64u$2p0u5$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:23:10 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uapn11$12ac$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 03:05:05 on Mon, 7 Aug 2023,
>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> According to Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Purchased a ticket on the GWR site, collected from a GWR machine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ticket was for Templecombe/Waterloo - wholly South Western Railway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do I claim from GWR or SWR?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looks like you claim from the company that was supposed to get you
>>>>>>> there on time. Try here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/delay-repay
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed, the ticket acquisition is irrelevant (you wouldn't claim on The
>>>>>> Trainline if you bought from them).
>>>>>
>>>>> The OP didn’t state he had been delayed. It is possible that he was unable
>>>>> to travel (eg line closure). In that case don’t you claim from the ticket
>>>>> vendor?
>>>>
>>>> Of course not. You claim from the TOC whose train was cancelled. And in
>>>> turn they might claim on Network Rail. It's nothing to do with the
>>>> travel agent you booked your ticket through, even if that travel agent
>>>> also happens to be a TOC.
>>>>
>>>> (I used to buy most of mine through Hull Trains, because they had the
>>>> most helpful website, but I've changed allegiance to an independent
>>>> site.)
>>>
>>>Well you’d be wrong.
>>>
>>>https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/compensation-and-refunds/#
>>>
>>>If your train journey is delayed or cancelled you may be
>>
>>may be (or do they mean "might be").
>>
>>>entitled to a full refund from the retailer of your ticket, or
>>>compensation from the train company that caused the delay.
>>>
>>>Refunds
>>>If your train is delayed or cancelled and you choose not to travel, your
>>>unused ticket can be refunded without any fees by the original retailer.
>>>
>>>Compensation
>>>If you are travelling and arrive late at your destination due to a
>>>cancelled or delayed service, you may be able to claim compensation. You
>>>will need to request compensation directly from your train company.
>>
>>Again, an assumption you bought the ticket from the TOC operating the
>>service.
>
>If indeed there is only one TOC involved. Otherwise, are you
>suggesting it is the responsiblity of the passenger to determine
>liability between different companies?

If there's only one TOC's trains being used, you claim off them.

If there are two TOCs involved, it depends if there was a missed
connection. If no missed connection then logically the delay will be
caused by the TOC operating the final leg. If there was a missed
connection then the TOC whose train was late getting to the connection
point is to blame.

Of course, the TOC you are connecting too might also generate a
contribution to the delay, or indeed arrive at your destination slightly
early; this often tips a claim from being a total of say 58 minutes late
to 62 minutes late. But claim from the first TOC who can then if they
are bothered ask for a contribution from the second TOC. You are always
asked to say how late you were at the destination.

Worked example: My most recent claim was for a cancelled Great Northern
train, which meant I missed my intended connection to Crosscountry. The
next GN did connect me with the next XC, which runs 1tph clockface
service on that flow. However, the XC was itself running five minutes
late by the time we got to Birmingham about two hours later, so my claim
on GN was for 65 minutes delay. Which meant I got a 100% refund, not 50%
(it was a single ticket, because someone gave me a lift back home a few
days later).
--
Roland Perry

In message <uar6hh$2u9tb$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:36:01 on Mon, 7 Aug
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>Delay repay is a formalised subset of compensation. It’s supposed to make
>things easier for the passenger,

And like all "simplifications" there will be winners and losers (both
traveller and TOC) compared to any scheme which assessed claims on
individual merits.

See my example I posted just now, where it cost the TOCs about £30
because one train of a pair was just five minutes late. [100% refund of
a £60 ticket, not a 50% refund]

>but as there is no central clearing house for claims we are left with
>the unsatisfactory situation of working out who to aim the claim at.

It's not that difficult.

>There are other bits of compensation, such as you had to get a taxi for the
>last leg or stay overnight in a hotel and the railway had failed to pay for
>this directly, but that’s getting into the weeds.

I have yet to hear reports of any traveller successfully making a claim
for those sorts of consequential costs. But if you have any examples,
now would be a good time to mention them.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/08/2023 06:39, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <j532dih8vtfakaapi073rs94ur7o5s8n55@4ax.com>, at 16:29:06 on
> Mon, 7 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 16:14:44 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <uaqo1s$2rrft$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:28:44 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uaq64u$2p0u5$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:23:10 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <uapn11$12ac$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 03:05:05 on Mon, 7
>>>>>>> Aug 2023,
>>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> According to Graham Harrison  <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Purchased a ticket on the GWR site, collected from a GWR machine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ticket was for Templecombe/Waterloo - wholly South Western
>>>>>>>>> Railway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do I claim from GWR or SWR?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Looks like you claim from the company that was supposed to get you
>>>>>>>> there on time.  Try here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/delay-repay
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed, the ticket acquisition is irrelevant (you wouldn't claim
>>>>>>> on The
>>>>>>> Trainline if you bought from them).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The OP didn’t state he had been delayed. It is possible that he
>>>>>> was unable
>>>>>> to travel (eg line closure). In that case don’t you claim from the
>>>>>> ticket
>>>>>> vendor?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course not. You claim from the TOC whose train was cancelled.
>>>>> And in
>>>>> turn they might claim on Network Rail. It's nothing to do with the
>>>>> travel agent you booked your ticket through, even if that travel agent
>>>>> also happens to be a TOC.
>>>>>
>>>>> (I used to buy most of mine through Hull Trains, because they had the
>>>>> most helpful website, but I've changed allegiance to an independent
>>>>> site.)
>>>>
>>>> Well you’d be wrong.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/compensation-and-refunds/#
>>>>
>>>> If your train journey is delayed or cancelled you may be
>>>
>>> may be (or do they mean "might be").
>>>
>>>> entitled to a full refund from the retailer of your ticket, or
>>>> compensation from the train company that caused the delay.
>>>>
>>>> Refunds
>>>> If your train is delayed or cancelled and you choose not to travel,
>>>> your
>>>> unused ticket can be refunded without any fees by the original
>>>> retailer.
>>>>
>>>> Compensation
>>>> If you are travelling and arrive late at your destination due to a
>>>> cancelled or delayed service, you may be able to claim compensation.
>>>> You
>>>> will need to request compensation directly from your train company.
>>>
>>> Again, an assumption you bought the ticket from the TOC operating the
>>> service.
>>
>> If indeed there is only one TOC involved. Otherwise, are you
>> suggesting it is the responsiblity of the passenger to determine
>> liability between different companies?
>
> If there's only one TOC's trains being used, you claim off them.
>
> If there are two TOCs involved, it depends if there was a missed
> connection. If no missed connection then logically the delay will be
> caused by the TOC operating the final leg. If there was a missed
> connection then the TOC whose train was late getting to the connection
> point is to blame.
>
> Of course, the TOC you are connecting too might also generate a
> contribution to the delay, or indeed arrive at your destination slightly
> early; this often tips a claim from being a total of say 58 minutes late
> to 62 minutes late. But claim from the first TOC who can then if they
> are bothered ask for a contribution from the second TOC. You are always
> asked to say how late you were at the destination.
>
> Worked example: My most recent claim was for a cancelled Great Northern
> train, which meant I missed my intended connection to Crosscountry. The
> next GN did connect me with the next XC, which runs 1tph clockface
> service on that flow. However, the XC was itself running five minutes
> late by the time we got to Birmingham about two hours later, so my claim
> on GN was for 65 minutes delay. Which meant I got a 100% refund, not 50%
> (it was a single ticket, because someone gave me a lift back home a few
> days later).

One problem I have encountered is some ToCs seem to use an automated
process to calculate what services you used after a missed connection.
This can fail spectacularly.

I missed an Elizabethan Line connection at Reading and waited 30 minutes
for the next service. Apparently there was an obscure alternative
service with a connection I could have used. I had to appeal the delay
from something less than 15 minutes into a 30 minute one

I was also delayed over two hours due to a bomb hoax at Birmingham New
Street railway station. The Gloucester to Seven Tunnel Junction railway
stations railway service was also suspended for the summer. I was using
split tickets via Gloucester railway station so had to travel via there.
The software said I could have reached Cogan only just under an hour
late ignoring I had to travel via Gloucester. Cue another appeal.

In message <uatfas$3dimp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:18:19 on Tue, 8 Aug
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>On 08/08/2023 06:39, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <j532dih8vtfakaapi073rs94ur7o5s8n55@4ax.com>, at 16:29:06
>>on Mon, 7 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 16:14:44 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <uaqo1s$2rrft$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:28:44 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uaq64u$2p0u5$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:23:10 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <uapn11$12ac$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 03:05:05 on Mon, 7
>>>>>>>>Aug 2023,
>>>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> According to Graham Harrison  <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Purchased a ticket on the GWR site, collected from a GWR machine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ticket was for Templecombe/Waterloo - wholly South Western
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do I claim from GWR or SWR?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Looks like you claim from the company that was supposed to get you
>>>>>>>>> there on time.  Try here:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/delay-repay
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed, the ticket acquisition is irrelevant (you wouldn't
>>>>>>>>claim on The
>>>>>>>> Trainline if you bought from them).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The OP didn’t state he had been delayed. It is possible that
>>>>>>>he was unable
>>>>>>> to travel (eg line closure). In that case don’t you claim from
>>>>>>>the ticket
>>>>>>> vendor?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course not. You claim from the TOC whose train was cancelled.
>>>>>>And in
>>>>>> turn they might claim on Network Rail. It's nothing to do with the
>>>>>> travel agent you booked your ticket through, even if that travel agent
>>>>>> also happens to be a TOC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (I used to buy most of mine through Hull Trains, because they had the
>>>>>> most helpful website, but I've changed allegiance to an independent
>>>>>> site.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Well you’d be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/compensation-and-
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If your train journey is delayed or cancelled you may be
>>>>
>>>> may be (or do they mean "might be").
>>>>
>>>>> entitled to a full refund from the retailer of your ticket, or
>>>>> compensation from the train company that caused the delay.
>>>>>
>>>>> Refunds
>>>>> If your train is delayed or cancelled and you choose not to
>>>>>travel, your
>>>>> unused ticket can be refunded without any fees by the original
>>>>>retailer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compensation
>>>>> If you are travelling and arrive late at your destination due to a
>>>>> cancelled or delayed service, you may be able to claim
>>>>>compensation. You
>>>>> will need to request compensation directly from your train company.
>>>>
>>>> Again, an assumption you bought the ticket from the TOC operating the
>>>> service.
>>>
>>> If indeed there is only one TOC involved. Otherwise, are you
>>> suggesting it is the responsiblity of the passenger to determine
>>> liability between different companies?
>> If there's only one TOC's trains being used, you claim off them.
>> If there are two TOCs involved, it depends if there was a missed
>>connection. If no missed connection then logically the delay will be
>>caused by the TOC operating the final leg. If there was a missed
>>connection then the TOC whose train was late getting to the connection
>>point is to blame.
>> Of course, the TOC you are connecting too might also generate a
>>contribution to the delay, or indeed arrive at your destination
>>slightly early; this often tips a claim from being a total of say 58
>>minutes late to 62 minutes late. But claim from the first TOC who can
>>then if they are bothered ask for a contribution from the second TOC.
>>You are always asked to say how late you were at the destination.
>> Worked example: My most recent claim was for a cancelled Great
>>Northern train, which meant I missed my intended connection to
>>Crosscountry. The next GN did connect me with the next XC, which runs
>>1tph clockface service on that flow. However, the XC was itself
>>running five minutes late by the time we got to Birmingham about two
>>hours later, so my claim on GN was for 65 minutes delay. Which meant
>>I got a 100% refund, not 50% (it was a single ticket, because someone
>>gave me a lift back home a few days later).
>
>One problem I have encountered is some ToCs seem to use an automated
>process to calculate what services you used after a missed connection.
>This can fail spectacularly.
>
>I missed an Elizabethan Line connection at Reading and waited 30
>minutes for the next service. Apparently there was an obscure
>alternative service with a connection I could have used. I had to
>appeal the delay from something less than 15 minutes into a 30 minute one
>
>I was also delayed over two hours due to a bomb hoax at Birmingham New
>Street railway station. The Gloucester to Seven Tunnel Junction
>railway stations railway service was also suspended for the summer. I
>was using split tickets via Gloucester railway station so had to travel
>via there. The software said I could have reached Cogan only just
>under an hour late ignoring I had to travel via Gloucester. Cue
>another appeal.

We really need to rename this newsgroup uk.corner-cases
--
Roland Perry

On 09/08/2023 17:41, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <uatfas$3dimp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:18:19 on Tue, 8 Aug
> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/08/2023 06:39, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <j532dih8vtfakaapi073rs94ur7o5s8n55@4ax.com>, at 16:29:06
>>> on  Mon, 7 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 16:14:44 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <uaqo1s$2rrft$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:28:44 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <uaq64u$2p0u5$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:23:10 on Mon, 7 Aug
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <uapn11$12ac$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 03:05:05 on Mon, 7
>>>>>>>>> Aug 2023,
>>>>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> According to Graham Harrison
>>>>>>>>>> <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Purchased a ticket on the GWR site, collected from a GWR
>>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ticket was for Templecombe/Waterloo - wholly South Western
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do I claim from GWR or SWR?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Looks like you claim from the company that was supposed to get
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> there on time.  Try here:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/delay-repay
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the ticket acquisition is irrelevant (you wouldn't
>>>>>>>>> claim  on The
>>>>>>>>> Trainline if you bought from them).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The OP didn’t state he had been delayed. It is possible that he
>>>>>>>> was unable
>>>>>>>> to travel (eg line closure). In that case don’t you claim from
>>>>>>>> the  ticket
>>>>>>>> vendor?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course not. You claim from the TOC whose train was cancelled.
>>>>>>> And in
>>>>>>> turn they might claim on Network Rail. It's nothing to do with the
>>>>>>> travel agent you booked your ticket through, even if that travel
>>>>>>> agent
>>>>>>> also happens to be a TOC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I used to buy most of mine through Hull Trains, because they had
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> most helpful website, but I've changed allegiance to an independent
>>>>>>> site.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well you’d be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/compensation-and-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If your train journey is delayed or cancelled you may be
>>>>>
>>>>> may be (or do they mean "might be").
>>>>>
>>>>>> entitled to a full refund from the retailer of your ticket, or
>>>>>> compensation from the train company that caused the delay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Refunds
>>>>>> If your train is delayed or cancelled and you choose not to
>>>>>> travel,  your
>>>>>> unused ticket can be refunded without any fees by the original
>>>>>> retailer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compensation
>>>>>> If you are travelling and arrive late at your destination due to a
>>>>>> cancelled or delayed service, you may be able to claim
>>>>>> compensation.  You
>>>>>> will need to request compensation directly from your train company.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, an assumption you bought the ticket from the TOC operating the
>>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> If indeed there is only one TOC involved. Otherwise, are you
>>>> suggesting it is the responsiblity of the passenger to determine
>>>> liability between different companies?
>>>  If there's only one TOC's trains being used, you claim off them.
>>>  If there are two TOCs involved, it depends if there was a missed
>>> connection. If no missed connection then logically the delay will be
>>> caused by the TOC operating the final leg. If there was a missed
>>> connection then the TOC whose train was late getting to the
>>> connection point is to blame.
>>>  Of course, the TOC you are connecting too might also generate a
>>> contribution to the delay, or indeed arrive at your destination
>>> slightly  early; this often tips a claim from being a total of say 58
>>> minutes late  to 62 minutes late. But claim from the first TOC who
>>> can then if they  are bothered ask for a contribution from the second
>>> TOC. You are always  asked to say how late you were at the destination.
>>>  Worked example: My most recent claim was for a cancelled Great
>>> Northern  train, which meant I missed my intended connection to
>>> Crosscountry. The  next GN did connect me with the next XC, which
>>> runs 1tph clockface  service on that flow. However, the XC was itself
>>> running five minutes  late by the time we got to Birmingham about two
>>> hours later, so my claim  on GN was for 65 minutes delay. Which meant
>>> I got a 100% refund, not 50%  (it was a single ticket, because
>>> someone gave me a lift back home a few  days later).
>>
>> One problem I have encountered is some ToCs seem to use an automated
>> process to calculate what services you used after a missed connection.
>> This can fail spectacularly.
>>
>> I missed an Elizabethan Line connection at Reading and waited 30
>> minutes for the next service.  Apparently there was an obscure
>> alternative service with a connection I could have used.  I had to
>> appeal the delay from something less than 15 minutes into a 30 minute one
>>
>> I was also delayed over two hours due to a bomb hoax at Birmingham New
>> Street railway station.  The Gloucester to Seven Tunnel Junction
>> railway stations railway service was also suspended for the summer.  I
>> was using split tickets via Gloucester railway station so had to
>> travel via there.  The software said I could have reached Cogan only
>> just under an hour late ignoring I had to travel via Gloucester.  Cue
>> another appeal.
>
> We really need to rename this newsgroup uk.corner-cases

Not at all. It assists others travelling on railways in the UK who need
to make a claim.

In message <ub0h12$q8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:05:38 on Wed, 9 Aug 2023,
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:

>>> One problem I have encountered is some ToCs seem to use an automated
>>>process to calculate what services you used after a missed
>>>connection. This can fail spectacularly.
>>>
>>> I missed an Elizabethan Line connection at Reading and waited 30
>>>minutes for the next service.  Apparently there was an obscure
>>>alternative service with a connection I could have used.  I had to
>>>appeal the delay from something less than 15 minutes into a 30 minute one
>>>
>>> I was also delayed over two hours due to a bomb hoax at Birmingham
>>>New Street railway station.  The Gloucester to Seven Tunnel Junction
>>>railway stations railway service was also suspended for the summer. 
>>>I was using split tickets via Gloucester railway station so had to
>>>travel via there.  The software said I could have reached Cogan only
>>>just under an hour late ignoring I had to travel via Gloucester.  Cue >>>another appeal.

>> We really need to rename this newsgroup uk.corner-cases
>
>Not at all. It assists others travelling on railways in the UK who
>need to make a claim.

Frankly, given the footfall here I doubt any will encounter these corner
cases themselves. So it's all a bit of an academic exercise. Especially
as Google Groups no longer carries ukr.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:58:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ub0h12$q8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:05:38 on Wed, 9 Aug 2023,
>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> One problem I have encountered is some ToCs seem to use an automated
>>>>process to calculate what services you used after a missed
>>>>connection. This can fail spectacularly.
>>>>
>>>> I missed an Elizabethan Line connection at Reading and waited 30
>>>>minutes for the next service.  Apparently there was an obscure
>>>>alternative service with a connection I could have used.  I had to
>>>>appeal the delay from something less than 15 minutes into a 30 minute one
>>>>
>>>> I was also delayed over two hours due to a bomb hoax at Birmingham
>>>>New Street railway station.  The Gloucester to Seven Tunnel Junction
>>>>railway stations railway service was also suspended for the summer. 
>>>>I was using split tickets via Gloucester railway station so had to
>>>>travel via there.  The software said I could have reached Cogan only
>>>>just under an hour late ignoring I had to travel via Gloucester.  Cue >>>another appeal.
>
>>> We really need to rename this newsgroup uk.corner-cases
>>
>>Not at all. It assists others travelling on railways in the UK who
>>need to make a claim.
>
>Frankly, given the footfall here I doubt any will encounter these corner
>cases themselves. So it's all a bit of an academic exercise. Especially
>as Google Groups no longer carries ukr.

I cannot agree with this. One of the endearing features of newsgroups
(not just uk.railway) is the creative thought and specialist knowledge
of some of the contributors. You don't have to read every posting,
just develop an ability to be selective.

On 10/08/2023 09:04, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:58:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <ub0h12$q8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:05:38 on Wed, 9 Aug 2023,
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> One problem I have encountered is some ToCs seem to use an automated
>>>>> process to calculate what services you used after a missed
>>>>> connection. This can fail spectacularly.
>>>>>
>>>>> I missed an Elizabethan Line connection at Reading and waited 30
>>>>> minutes for the next service.  Apparently there was an obscure
>>>>> alternative service with a connection I could have used.  I had to
>>>>> appeal the delay from something less than 15 minutes into a 30 minute one
>>>>>
>>>>> I was also delayed over two hours due to a bomb hoax at Birmingham
>>>>> New Street railway station.  The Gloucester to Seven Tunnel Junction
>>>>> railway stations railway service was also suspended for the summer.
>>>>> I was using split tickets via Gloucester railway station so had to
>>>>> travel via there.  The software said I could have reached Cogan only
>>>>> just under an hour late ignoring I had to travel via Gloucester.  Cue >>>another appeal.
>>
>>>> We really need to rename this newsgroup uk.corner-cases
>>>
>>> Not at all. It assists others travelling on railways in the UK who
>>> need to make a claim.
>>
>> Frankly, given the footfall here I doubt any will encounter these corner
>> cases themselves. So it's all a bit of an academic exercise. Especially
>> as Google Groups no longer carries ukr.
>
> I cannot agree with this. One of the endearing features of newsgroups
> (not just uk.railway) is the creative thought and specialist knowledge
> of some of the contributors. You don't have to read every posting,
> just develop an ability to be selective.

Ironic that one of the biggest perpetrators of corner cases, to the
point of absurdity on occasion, is one R Perry Esq.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ub26bc$ai4a$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:15:40 on Thu, 10 Aug
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/08/2023 09:04, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:58:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ub0h12$q8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:05:38 on Wed, 9 Aug
>>>2023,
>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> One problem I have encountered is some ToCs seem to use an automated
>>>>>> process to calculate what services you used after a missed
>>>>>> connection. This can fail spectacularly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I missed an Elizabethan Line connection at Reading and waited 30
>>>>>> minutes for the next service.  Apparently there was an obscure
>>>>>> alternative service with a connection I could have used.  I had to
>>>>>> appeal the delay from something less than 15 minutes into a 30 minute one
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was also delayed over two hours due to a bomb hoax at Birmingham
>>>>>> New Street railway station.  The Gloucester to Seven Tunnel Junction
>>>>>> railway stations railway service was also suspended for the summer.
>>>>>> I was using split tickets via Gloucester railway station so had to
>>>>>> travel via there.  The software said I could have reached Cogan only
>>>>>> just under an hour late ignoring I had to travel via Gloucester. 
>>>>>>Cue >>>another appeal.
>>>
>>>>> We really need to rename this newsgroup uk.corner-cases
>>>>
>>>> Not at all. It assists others travelling on railways in the UK who
>>>> need to make a claim.
>>>
>>> Frankly, given the footfall here I doubt any will encounter these corner
>>> cases themselves. So it's all a bit of an academic exercise. Especially
>>> as Google Groups no longer carries ukr.

>> I cannot agree with this. One of the endearing features of
>>newsgroups (not just uk.railway) is the creative thought and
>>specialist knowledge of some of the contributors. You don't have to
>>read every posting, just develop an ability to be selective.

Sure, but in ukr it's increasingly an academic exercise, with a handful
of participants. I like the ticketing questions, because it's always
been an interest of mine, but I doubt there's very many people to whom
the conclusions are helpful.

>Ironic that one of the biggest perpetrators of corner cases, to the
>point of absurdity on occasion, is one R Perry Esq.

Do I perpetrate them, or just comment on ones others have raised?
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 10:06:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ub26bc$ai4a$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:15:40 on Thu, 10 Aug
>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

<unchosen>

>>Ironic that one of the biggest perpetrators of corner cases, to the
>>point of absurdity on occasion, is one R Perry Esq.
>
>Do I perpetrate them, or just comment on ones others have raised?

*Perpetuate* certainly applies...

In message <3b0adihcbld571ik4ovl88sg13tt2su4oi@4ax.com>, at 08:27:57 on
Thu, 10 Aug 2023, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 10:06:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <ub26bc$ai4a$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:15:40 on Thu, 10 Aug
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
><unchosen>
>
>>>Ironic that one of the biggest perpetrators of corner cases, to the
>>>point of absurdity on occasion, is one R Perry Esq.
>>
>>Do I perpetrate them, or just comment on ones others have raised?
>
>*Perpetuate* certainly applies...

So no actual data then.
--
Roland Perry