Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
and essentially the same inside.

In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>and essentially the same inside.

The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 18:33:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>and essentially the same inside.
>
>The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.

Thanks for clarifying. This is consistent with what I was told by
ScotRail. She said you might be able to load the ticket on to the card
but then encounter problems getting through the barriers.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>> and essentially the same inside.
>
> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.

Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to like going
south of the border though.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>
>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>
> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to like going
> south of the border though.

Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail ticket onto
my old codger’s bus pass?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>
>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>
>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to like going
>> south of the border though.
>
>Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail ticket onto
>my old codger’s bus pass?
>
Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
Entitlement Card ?
https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-free-bus-travel/

which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
have any value loaded.

In message <tqqkdi9ccmimq8r62j1s861fjngjsnfd5j@4ax.com>, at 19:02:02 on
Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 18:33:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>and essentially the same inside.
>>
>>The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>
>Thanks for clarifying. This is consistent with what I was told by
>ScotRail. She said you might be able to load the ticket on to the card
>but then encounter problems getting through the barriers.

Scotrail has the extra feature that it used to be a Abellio operation,
and that's the one group which (unlike Stagecoach) was working fairly
well to introduce interoperability of ITSO cards between its franchises.

I've bought tickets to use at stations operated by Abellio Greater
Anglia, and loaded them onto an Abellio East Midlands Railway card,
for example.

It's got yet another layer of complication because Abellio has recently
sold its remaining UK train franchises to an outfit called Transport UK
Group. I have the popcorn ready, for my next mystery purchase (early
next week).
--
Roland Perry

In message <98cldi5snchfuh2v09lfosgh5fvlc5shbj@4ax.com>, at 00:02:36 on
Tue, 15 Aug 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>>
>>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>>
>>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
>>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to like going
>>> south of the border though.
>>
>>Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail ticket onto
>>my old codger’s bus pass?
>>
>Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
>Entitlement Card ?

>https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
>https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-f
>ree-bus-travel/
>
>which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
>have any value loaded.

Exactly. It's a software issue, because despite bucketloads of virtue
signalling about encouraging public transport use, the county councils
issuing ITSO concessionary cards can't be bothered to load an app onto
them to cope with train tickets from the local TOC (let alone non-local
ones).

I've kind of given up maintaining this page (which I originally set up
over 10yrs ago), last update 2020:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/itso-code.jpg

--
Roland Perry

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>>
>>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>>
>>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
>>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to like going
>>> south of the border though.
>>
>> Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail ticket onto
>> my old codger’s bus pass?
>>
> Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
> Entitlement Card ?
> https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
> https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-free-bus-travel/
>
> which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
> have any value loaded.
>

See https://smarttravel.scot/smart-options-0

“Scottish ITSO smartcards can now be used to store tickets for travel
across multiple modes of transport and multiple transport operators. This
means you can now travel on bus, rail and subway using just one ITSO
smartcard, rather than needing separate smartcards or paper tickets for
each operator.”

The old folks pass is on the list. However, not living in Scotland I’m not
entitled to an entitlement card so am not in a position to test this.

In message <ubf3qp$2n3a4$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:52:25 on Tue, 15 Aug
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>>>
>>>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>>>
>>>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>>>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
>>>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to like going
>>>> south of the border though.
>>>
>>> Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail ticket onto
>>> my old codger’s bus pass?
>>>
>> Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
>> Entitlement Card ?
>> https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
>>
>>https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-
>>free-bus-travel/
>>
>> which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
>> have any value loaded.
>>
>
>See https://smarttravel.scot/smart-options-0
>
>“Scottish ITSO smartcards can now be used to store tickets for travel
>across multiple modes of transport and multiple transport operators. This
>means you can now travel on bus, rail and subway using just one ITSO
>smartcard, rather than needing separate smartcards or paper tickets for
>each operator.”
>
>The old folks pass is on the list. However, not living in Scotland I’m not
>entitled to an entitlement card so am not in a position to test this.

I think it's very unlikely I could load my Cambridgeshire old folks pass
onto a Scottish ITSO card, even though I have one of the latter in my
collection.

Most issuers will send you one for free no questions asked, although a
couple have recently said "thanks for asking, but we won't send you one
until you actually buy a loadable ticket from us".

Maybe I should try loading my ticket for next week (day return Ely to
Peterborough) onto one.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ubf3qp$2n3a4$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:52:25 on Tue, 15 Aug
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>>>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>>>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>>>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>>>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>>>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>>>>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
>>>>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to like going
>>>>> south of the border though.
>>>>
>>>> Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail ticket onto
>>>> my old codger’s bus pass?
>>>>
>>> Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
>>> Entitlement Card ?
>>> https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
>>>
>>> https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-
>>> free-bus-travel/
>>>
>>> which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
>>> have any value loaded.
>>>
>>
>> See https://smarttravel.scot/smart-options-0
>>
>> “Scottish ITSO smartcards can now be used to store tickets for travel
>> across multiple modes of transport and multiple transport operators. This
>> means you can now travel on bus, rail and subway using just one ITSO
>> smartcard, rather than needing separate smartcards or paper tickets for
>> each operator.”
>>
>> The old folks pass is on the list. However, not living in Scotland I’m not
>> entitled to an entitlement card so am not in a position to test this.
>
> I think it's very unlikely I could load my Cambridgeshire old folks pass
> onto a Scottish ITSO card, even though I have one of the latter in my
> collection.
>
> Most issuers will send you one for free no questions asked, although a
> couple have recently said "thanks for asking, but we won't send you one
> until you actually buy a loadable ticket from us".
>
> Maybe I should try loading my ticket for next week (day return Ely to
> Peterborough) onto one.

By what mechanism could you even attempt to load your old folks pass onto
another card? Don’t such cards come pre-programmed with the bus pass?

In message <ubf5ae$2napl$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:17:50 on Tue, 15 Aug
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ubf3qp$2n3a4$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:52:25 on Tue, 15 Aug
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>>>>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>>>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>>>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>>>>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>>>>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>>>>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>>>>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>>>>>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
>>>>>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to
>>>>>>like going
>>>>>> south of the border though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail
>>>>>ticket onto
>>>>> my old codger’s bus pass?
>>>>>
>>>> Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
>>>> Entitlement Card ?
>>>> https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-
>>>> free-bus-travel/
>>>>
>>>> which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
>>>> have any value loaded.
>>>>
>>>
>>> See https://smarttravel.scot/smart-options-0
>>>
>>> “Scottish ITSO smartcards can now be used to store tickets for travel
>>> across multiple modes of transport and multiple transport operators. This
>>> means you can now travel on bus, rail and subway using just one ITSO
>>> smartcard, rather than needing separate smartcards or paper tickets for
>>> each operator.”
>>>
>>> The old folks pass is on the list. However, not living in Scotland I’m not
>>> entitled to an entitlement card so am not in a position to test this.
>>
>> I think it's very unlikely I could load my Cambridgeshire old folks pass
>> onto a Scottish ITSO card, even though I have one of the latter in my
>> collection.
>>
>> Most issuers will send you one for free no questions asked, although a
>> couple have recently said "thanks for asking, but we won't send you one
>> until you actually buy a loadable ticket from us".
>>
>> Maybe I should try loading my ticket for next week (day return Ely to
>> Peterborough) onto one.
>
>By what mechanism could you even attempt to load your old folks pass onto
>another card?

It's called software (or zealots might say middleware).

>Don’t such cards come pre-programmed with the bus pass?

Not a Scotrail card if you live in Cambrigeshire.

I can load Southeastern rail tickets onto their ITSO card using the NFC
on my phone, so in principle Cambridgeshire County Council could send
something to my phone to load the old folks pass onto any ITSO card
prepared to accept it.

Of course, there's also the photo, but several TOC ITSO cards now have
photos (and I think Scotrail ones always have - I've used them as
"Government Issued Photo ID" now and again, just to tease the people
insufficiently well trained to know which are which).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ubf5ae$2napl$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:17:50 on Tue, 15 Aug
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ubf3qp$2n3a4$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:52:25 on Tue, 15 Aug
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>>>>>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>>>>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>>>>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>>>>>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>>>>>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>>>>>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>>>>>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>>>>>>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
>>>>>>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to
>>>>>>> like going
>>>>>>> south of the border though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail
>>>>>> ticket onto
>>>>>> my old codger’s bus pass?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
>>>>> Entitlement Card ?
>>>>> https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-
>>>>> free-bus-travel/
>>>>>
>>>>> which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
>>>>> have any value loaded.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See https://smarttravel.scot/smart-options-0
>>>>
>>>> “Scottish ITSO smartcards can now be used to store tickets for travel
>>>> across multiple modes of transport and multiple transport operators. This
>>>> means you can now travel on bus, rail and subway using just one ITSO
>>>> smartcard, rather than needing separate smartcards or paper tickets for
>>>> each operator.”
>>>>
>>>> The old folks pass is on the list. However, not living in Scotland I’m not
>>>> entitled to an entitlement card so am not in a position to test this.
>>>
>>> I think it's very unlikely I could load my Cambridgeshire old folks pass
>>> onto a Scottish ITSO card, even though I have one of the latter in my
>>> collection.
>>>
>>> Most issuers will send you one for free no questions asked, although a
>>> couple have recently said "thanks for asking, but we won't send you one
>>> until you actually buy a loadable ticket from us".
>>>
>>> Maybe I should try loading my ticket for next week (day return Ely to
>>> Peterborough) onto one.
>>
>> By what mechanism could you even attempt to load your old folks pass onto
>> another card?
>
> It's called software (or zealots might say middleware).
>
>> Don’t such cards come pre-programmed with the bus pass?
>
> Not a Scotrail card if you live in Cambrigeshire.
>
> I can load Southeastern rail tickets onto their ITSO card using the NFC
> on my phone, so in principle Cambridgeshire County Council could send
> something to my phone to load the old folks pass onto any ITSO card
> prepared to accept it.
>
> Of course, there's also the photo, but several TOC ITSO cards now have
> photos (and I think Scotrail ones always have - I've used them as
> "Government Issued Photo ID" now and again, just to tease the people
> insufficiently well trained to know which are which).

Wouldn’t fraud be an issue if you could self program a bus pass? A pile of
blank cards, a printer to add a photograph and a bulk programmer.

On 15.08.23 09:22, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ubf5ae$2napl$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:17:50 on Tue, 15 Aug
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ubf3qp$2n3a4$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:52:25 on Tue, 15 Aug
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at 18:12:05 on
>>>>>>>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR customer
>>>>>>>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster) were ITSO
>>>>>>>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever software gets
>>>>>>>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>>>>>>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>>>>>>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>>>>>>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>>>>>>>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m sure someone
>>>>>>>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to
>>>>>>>> like going
>>>>>>>> south of the border though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail
>>>>>>> ticket onto
>>>>>>> my old codger’s bus pass?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
>>>>>> Entitlement Card ?
>>>>>> https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-
>>>>>> free-bus-travel/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
>>>>>> have any value loaded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> See https://smarttravel.scot/smart-options-0
>>>>>
>>>>> “Scottish ITSO smartcards can now be used to store tickets for travel
>>>>> across multiple modes of transport and multiple transport operators. This
>>>>> means you can now travel on bus, rail and subway using just one ITSO
>>>>> smartcard, rather than needing separate smartcards or paper tickets for
>>>>> each operator.”
>>>>>
>>>>> The old folks pass is on the list. However, not living in Scotland I’m not
>>>>> entitled to an entitlement card so am not in a position to test this.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's very unlikely I could load my Cambridgeshire old folks pass
>>>> onto a Scottish ITSO card, even though I have one of the latter in my
>>>> collection.
>>>>
>>>> Most issuers will send you one for free no questions asked, although a
>>>> couple have recently said "thanks for asking, but we won't send you one
>>>> until you actually buy a loadable ticket from us".
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I should try loading my ticket for next week (day return Ely to
>>>> Peterborough) onto one.
>>>
>>> By what mechanism could you even attempt to load your old folks pass onto
>>> another card?
>>
>> It's called software (or zealots might say middleware).
>>
>>> Don’t such cards come pre-programmed with the bus pass?
>>
>> Not a Scotrail card if you live in Cambrigeshire.
>>
>> I can load Southeastern rail tickets onto their ITSO card using the NFC
>> on my phone, so in principle Cambridgeshire County Council could send
>> something to my phone to load the old folks pass onto any ITSO card
>> prepared to accept it.
>>
>> Of course, there's also the photo, but several TOC ITSO cards now have
>> photos (and I think Scotrail ones always have - I've used them as
>> "Government Issued Photo ID" now and again, just to tease the people
>> insufficiently well trained to know which are which).
>
> Wouldn’t fraud be an issue if you could self program a bus pass? A pile of
> blank cards, a printer to add a photograph and a bulk programmer.

There are supposed to be cryptographic features in the ITSO standard
that make this sort of thing non-trivial. I once read a bit about it,
but it was some time ago and I don't recall the deails.

Robin

In message <ubf941$2ns8f$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:22:41 on Tue, 15 Aug
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ubf5ae$2napl$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:17:50 on Tue, 15 Aug
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ubf3qp$2n3a4$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:52:25 on Tue, 15 Aug
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:21:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ppnkdi9jdlvkfa6mgasivfv2m3afmg28du@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>18:12:05 on
>>>>>>>>> Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can a ScotRail Smartcard be used on Great Western Railway? SR
>>>>>>>>>>customer
>>>>>>>>>> services say no, but I thought most cards (excluding Oyster)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and essentially the same inside.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The cards are the same hardware, but can only do whatever
>>>>>>>>>software gets
>>>>>>>>> loaded onto them. The tragedy is that far too few transport operators
>>>>>>>>> will load software onto *their* ITSO card, to allow it to be used on
>>>>>>>>> some bloody competitor's trains. Market failure, not a technology
>>>>>>>>> failure. I'm sure the Tories are very proud.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scotland has taken its own approach. There’s a lot of different smart
>>>>>>>> cards, subway, bus, train and they are all (well most, I’m
>>>>>>>>someone
>>>>>>>> will dig out an exception) interchangeable. They don’t seem to
>>>>>>>> like going
>>>>>>>> south of the border though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ummm. I haven’t had occasion to try, but can I load a ScotRail
>>>>>>> ticket onto
>>>>>>> my old codger’s bus pass?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't your Old Codger's Bus Pass actually a multi-function National
>>>>>> Entitlement Card ?
>>>>>> https://www.entitlementcard.org.uk/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled-
>>>>>> free-bus-travel/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> which AIUI (like e.g. concessionary Oyster cards) is not intended to
>>>>>> have any value loaded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> See https://smarttravel.scot/smart-options-0
>>>>>
>>>>> “Scottish ITSO smartcards can now be used to store tickets for travel
>>>>> across multiple modes of transport and multiple transport operators. This
>>>>> means you can now travel on bus, rail and subway using just one ITSO
>>>>> smartcard, rather than needing separate smartcards or paper tickets for
>>>>> each operator.”
>>>>>
>>>>> The old folks pass is on the list. However, not living in Scotland
>>>>>I’m not
>>>>> entitled to an entitlement card so am not in a position to test this.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's very unlikely I could load my Cambridgeshire old folks pass
>>>> onto a Scottish ITSO card, even though I have one of the latter in my
>>>> collection.
>>>>
>>>> Most issuers will send you one for free no questions asked, although a
>>>> couple have recently said "thanks for asking, but we won't send you one
>>>> until you actually buy a loadable ticket from us".
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I should try loading my ticket for next week (day return Ely to
>>>> Peterborough) onto one.
>>>
>>> By what mechanism could you even attempt to load your old folks pass onto
>>> another card?
>>
>> It's called software (or zealots might say middleware).
>>
>>> Don’t such cards come pre-programmed with the bus pass?
>>
>> Not a Scotrail card if you live in Cambrigeshire.
>>
>> I can load Southeastern rail tickets onto their ITSO card using the NFC
>> on my phone, so in principle Cambridgeshire County Council could send
>> something to my phone to load the old folks pass onto any ITSO card
>> prepared to accept it.
>>
>> Of course, there's also the photo, but several TOC ITSO cards now have
>> photos (and I think Scotrail ones always have - I've used them as
>> "Government Issued Photo ID" now and again, just to tease the people
>> insufficiently well trained to know which are which).
>
>Wouldn’t fraud be an issue if you could self program a bus pass? A pile of
>blank cards, a printer to add a photograph and a bulk programmer.

No, because the middleware loading the token to the card can be made to
ensure it's signed as authentic.
--
Roland Perry