Over the night from 25 to26th December, my economy 7 supply is no longer
there.
That means no main heating all through the house. These heaters are the
older mechanically controlled ones that have no ordinary mains connection to
see if they actually will heat up.
Now I got these some years back under a Warm Front grant, and hence nobody
bothered to let me know where the breaker actually is under my cupboard for
all things electrical coming in. I have no gas.
Two questions.
Am I looking for a traditional push the button in breaker and where will it
be, and 2, if it is still in then where is the economy 7 supply switched
from. It seems to me that to keep control of the times that would need to be
inside the meter itself. I have a new smart meter and its been working fine
since October, and the problem is, it only reports supply on, it has no
smarts in it to tell me if the economy 7 might have failed.
If it has, then I guess its an EDF issue as its their supplied meter. I am
very glad I had the hot water heater put on a normal ring main, at least I
can have a bath!

So my plan of action is, find somebody with sight and let them tell me where
the breaker is, If its out, turn off the two heaters that were on when it
tripped and in the middle of the night switch one at a time on and see if it
trips, Then turn off the culprit and put it back on again.
If its in, then call EDF priority services and get some engineer out or see
if they have any diagnostics their end or software update that might have
caused it. I fear that this may well be beyond the pay grade of most of the
people I normally get when I call, they are often in the Philippines.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

On Monday, 27 December 2021 at 07:51:46 UTC, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Am I looking for a traditional push the button in breaker and where will it
> be,

I don't know, as in: my parents had a separate (white) meter with its own separate fusebox (wire fuses vintage).
My own place has a teleswitch and single twin-rate meter feeding a single panel, but the panel has two separate clumps of breakers, each with an input switch (not breaker).
So it might depend on the property.

My single storage heater takes most of a 16A spur on its own; I would expect one such spur per heater rather than a dedicated ring-main, but then I'm no expert. So if 3 heaters have stopped working there there would be 3 popped breakers... which seems unlikely.

> It seems to me that to keep control of the times that would need to be
> inside the meter itself. I have a new smart meter...

For me the control comes from a featureless box labelled "Radio Teleswitch", which presumably contains a *large* relay. There is a wire from the teleswitch to the meter to tell it when E7 is activated.
I only have a dumb meter though. I don't know if smartmeters including the switching gear... but I note that they will be cheaper if they don't and depend on the existing switch.

> I have a new smart meter...it only reports supply on, it has no
> smarts in it to tell me if the economy 7 might have failed.

The trouble is that, by definition, there is no economy 7 during the day anyway.
It may be that you have to wait until night time, and then notice that it fails to tell you that economy 7 is now active :(

In any event, to me it sounds like the "Radio Teleswitch" is either broken or no longer getting a signal.
> call EDF priority services and get some engineer out
would be the plan.

> I am very glad I had the hot water heater put on a normal ring main
Oh. Mine's on both - one tank, two separate elements. Also, the way my supply's laid out it seems that *all* electricity used while economy 7 is active is charged at the "night" rate... :)

Hope this helps

Henry

> Over the night from 25 to26th December, my economy 7 supply is no longer
> there.
> That means no main heating all through the house. These heaters are the
> older mechanically controlled ones that have no ordinary mains connection to
> see if they actually will heat up.
> Now I got these some years back under a Warm Front grant, and hence nobody
> bothered to let me know where the breaker actually is under my cupboard for
> all things electrical coming in. I have no gas.
> Two questions.
> Am I looking for a traditional push the button in breaker and where will it
> be, and 2, if it is still in then where is the economy 7 supply switched
> from. It seems to me that to keep control of the times that would need to be
> inside the meter itself. I have a new smart meter and its been working fine
> since October, and the problem is, it only reports supply on, it has no
> smarts in it to tell me if the economy 7 might have failed.
> If it has, then I guess its an EDF issue as its their supplied meter. I am
> very glad I had the hot water heater put on a normal ring main, at least I
> can have a bath!
>
> So my plan of action is, find somebody with sight and let them tell me where
> the breaker is, If its out, turn off the two heaters that were on when it
> tripped and in the middle of the night switch one at a time on and see if it
> trips, Then turn off the culprit and put it back on again.
> If its in, then call EDF priority services and get some engineer out or see
> if they have any diagnostics their end or software update that might have
> caused it. I fear that this may well be beyond the pay grade of most of the
> people I normally get when I call, they are often in the Philippines.
> Brian
>
> --
>
> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
> bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Blind user, so no pictures please
> Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Yes well priority services are out until tomorrow referring allto chat on
the web site which is shut and so there you are. Its a long saga but I will
tell them when they come back that not having a manned phone line is going
to bite them in the bum one holiday time when I can find somebody y total
to. Apparently because there is no complete failure, they emergency cover
via UK power networks and London Power networks, cannot act. They can only
come out if you have no supply or if its a dangerous supply issue.
End of story so far.
I have had sighted help and as you say the system has all breakers intact.
Just no current in the night appears.
Since the meter was changed for a smart one in October we must consider the
lieikelyhood of a problem with the wiring the teleswitch or some other bit
of associated kit they had to fiddle with when it was fitted.
I have my suspicions that some dingbat at EDF pressed a wrong button and
lost it off the network.
However it could be hardware.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Henry Nebrensky" <torty5737@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:623f6e9c-2dc0-4ac9-81de-801844f8db92n@googlegroups.com...
On Monday, 27 December 2021 at 07:51:46 UTC, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Am I looking for a traditional push the button in breaker and where will
> it
> be,

I don't know, as in: my parents had a separate (white) meter with its own
separate fusebox (wire fuses vintage).
My own place has a teleswitch and single twin-rate meter feeding a single
panel, but the panel has two separate clumps of breakers, each with an input
switch (not breaker).
So it might depend on the property.

My single storage heater takes most of a 16A spur on its own; I would expect
one such spur per heater rather than a dedicated ring-main, but then I'm no
expert. So if 3 heaters have stopped working there there would be 3 popped
breakers... which seems unlikely.

> It seems to me that to keep control of the times that would need to be
> inside the meter itself. I have a new smart meter...

For me the control comes from a featureless box labelled "Radio Teleswitch",
which presumably contains a *large* relay. There is a wire from the
teleswitch to the meter to tell it when E7 is activated.
I only have a dumb meter though. I don't know if smartmeters including the
switching gear... but I note that they will be cheaper if they don't and
depend on the existing switch.

> I have a new smart meter...it only reports supply on, it has no
> smarts in it to tell me if the economy 7 might have failed.

The trouble is that, by definition, there is no economy 7 during the day
anyway.
It may be that you have to wait until night time, and then notice that it
fails to tell you that economy 7 is now active :(

In any event, to me it sounds like the "Radio Teleswitch" is either broken
or no longer getting a signal.
> call EDF priority services and get some engineer out
would be the plan.

> I am very glad I had the hot water heater put on a normal ring main
Oh. Mine's on both - one tank, two separate elements. Also, the way my
supply's laid out it seems that *all* electricity used while economy 7 is
active is charged at the "night" rate... :)

Hope this helps

Henry

> Over the night from 25 to26th December, my economy 7 supply is no longer
> there.
> That means no main heating all through the house. These heaters are the
> older mechanically controlled ones that have no ordinary mains connection
> to
> see if they actually will heat up.
> Now I got these some years back under a Warm Front grant, and hence nobody
> bothered to let me know where the breaker actually is under my cupboard
> for
> all things electrical coming in. I have no gas.
> Two questions.
> Am I looking for a traditional push the button in breaker and where will
> it
> be, and 2, if it is still in then where is the economy 7 supply switched
> from. It seems to me that to keep control of the times that would need to
> be
> inside the meter itself. I have a new smart meter and its been working
> fine
> since October, and the problem is, it only reports supply on, it has no
> smarts in it to tell me if the economy 7 might have failed.
> If it has, then I guess its an EDF issue as its their supplied meter. I am
> very glad I had the hot water heater put on a normal ring main, at least I
> can have a bath!
>
> So my plan of action is, find somebody with sight and let them tell me
> where
> the breaker is, If its out, turn off the two heaters that were on when it
> tripped and in the middle of the night switch one at a time on and see if
> it
> trips, Then turn off the culprit and put it back on again.
> If its in, then call EDF priority services and get some engineer out or
> see
> if they have any diagnostics their end or software update that might have
> caused it. I fear that this may well be beyond the pay grade of most of
> the
> people I normally get when I call, they are often in the Philippines.
> Brian
>
> --
>
> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
> bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Blind user, so no pictures please
> Note this Signature is meaningless.!

> I have had sighted help and as you say the system has all breakers intact.
> Just no current in the night appears.

According to wikipedia[*], the switching signal piggybacks on Radio 4 longwave, so maybe the teleswitch can't bear listening to the cricket? :)

I don't know if something else could interfere with it - any neighbours got themselves a cheapo ethernet-over-power rig or similar for Christmas?
(NB I've waded in here as I'm sure my supplier will foist a smartmeter on me eventually, and I'd quite like to know how smartmeters and Economy 7 actually get on in the real world...)

Hope this helps,

Henry

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_7

On Tuesday, 28 December 2021 at 10:21:48 UTC, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Yes well priority services are out until tomorrow referring allto chat on
> the web site which is shut and so there you are. Its a long saga but I will
> tell them when they come back that not having a manned phone line is going
> to bite them in the bum one holiday time when I can find somebody y total
> to. Apparently because there is no complete failure, they emergency cover
> via UK power networks and London Power networks, cannot act. They can only
> come out if you have no supply or if its a dangerous supply issue.
> End of story so far.
> I have had sighted help and as you say the system has all breakers intact.
> Just no current in the night appears.
> Since the meter was changed for a smart one in October we must consider the
> lieikelyhood of a problem with the wiring the teleswitch or some other bit
> of associated kit they had to fiddle with when it was fitted.
> I have my suspicions that some dingbat at EDF pressed a wrong button and
> lost it off the network.
> However it could be hardware.
> Brian
>
> --
>
> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
> bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Blind user, so no pictures please
> Note this Signature is meaningless.!

I am currently awaiting the EDF lot to interrogate the IP address used by
my meter for diagnostics. It might just need a software reboot at their end
or on the other side, it might need a repair. One would have thought this
could be looked at in seconds. I've waited over half an hour for a call back
thus far.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Henry Nebrensky" <torty5737@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:14d1deec-f5be-4e54-bab2-1bae3a5a8d6en@googlegroups.com...
>> I have had sighted help and as you say the system has all breakers
>> intact.
>> Just no current in the night appears.
>
> According to wikipedia[*], the switching signal piggybacks on Radio 4
> longwave, so maybe the teleswitch can't bear listening to the cricket? :)
>
> I don't know if something else could interfere with it - any neighbours
> got themselves a cheapo ethernet-over-power rig or similar for Christmas?
>
> (NB I've waded in here as I'm sure my supplier will foist a smartmeter on
> me eventually, and I'd quite like to know how smartmeters and Economy 7
> actually get on in the real world...)
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Henry
>
> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_7
>
> On Tuesday, 28 December 2021 at 10:21:48 UTC, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> Yes well priority services are out until tomorrow referring allto chat on
>> the web site which is shut and so there you are. Its a long saga but I
>> will
>> tell them when they come back that not having a manned phone line is
>> going
>> to bite them in the bum one holiday time when I can find somebody y total
>> to. Apparently because there is no complete failure, they emergency cover
>> via UK power networks and London Power networks, cannot act. They can
>> only
>> come out if you have no supply or if its a dangerous supply issue.
>> End of story so far.
>> I have had sighted help and as you say the system has all breakers
>> intact.
>> Just no current in the night appears.
>> Since the meter was changed for a smart one in October we must consider
>> the
>> lieikelyhood of a problem with the wiring the teleswitch or some other
>> bit
>> of associated kit they had to fiddle with when it was fitted.
>> I have my suspicions that some dingbat at EDF pressed a wrong button and
>> lost it off the network.
>> However it could be hardware.
>> Brian
>>
>> --
>>
>> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
>> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
>> bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
>> Blind user, so no pictures please
>> Note this Signature is meaningless.!

On 29/12/2021 09:14, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

> I am currently awaiting the EDF lot to interrogate the IP address used by
> my meter for diagnostics. It might just need a software reboot at their end
> or on the other side, it might need a repair. One would have thought this
> could be looked at in seconds. I've waited over half an hour for a call back
> thus far.

Earthly systems can be examined rapidly, and usually accurately, but
when it comes to the other side there is usually a medium involved, and
unless handled carefully, that can cause all sorts of unforseen
consequences.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

Henry Nebrensky wrote:

> I'm sure my supplier will foist a smartmeter on me eventually

They can't force you to have one (and OFGEM will back you up on that) but they
can make certain tariffs available on conditon that you do have one ...

> and I'd quite like to know how smartmeters and Economy 7 actually get on in
> the real world...)
There was a time when having E7 (or being leccy only) precluded you from having
a smartmeter, that seems to have changed, probably when v2 meters were introduced?

On Wednesday, 29 December 2021 at 13:54:35 UTC, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
> Henry Nebrensky wrote:
>
> > I'm sure my supplier will foist a smartmeter on me eventually
> They can't force you to have one (and OFGEM will back you up on that) but they
> can make certain tariffs available on conditon that you do have one ...

The star-bards are slowly but surely grinding me down... :(

> > and I'd quite like to know how smartmeters and Economy 7 actually get on in
> > the real world...)
> There was a time when having E7 (or being leccy only) precluded you from having
> a smartmeter, that seems to have changed, probably when v2 meters were introduced?

For existing appliances, doesn't Economy 7 requires switching 50+ amps[*] nightly? I'm sceptical they would implement the gubbins for that in every meter, on the off-chance it goes into an E7 property, given there would already be .

I should ask my question directly: Brian, do you know (or can ask) if when they fitted the smartmeter, did they keep the old timer/teleswitch, or did they fit some special E7-compatible smartmeter that has the switchgear inside?

Hope this helps

Henry

* Heating of 3 bed and 2 living areas, & water; handwaving 10 A each...

> For existing appliances, doesn't Economy 7 requires switching 50+ amps[*] nightly? I'm sceptical they would implement the gubbins for that in every meter, on the off-chance it goes into an E7 property, given there would already be .
.... a suitable switch in place.

Hope this helps
Henry

On 29/12/2021 21:41, Henry Nebrensky wrote:
>
>> For existing appliances, doesn't Economy 7 requires switching 50+ amps[*] nightly? I'm sceptical they would implement the gubbins for that in every meter, on the off-chance it goes into an E7 property, given there would already be .
> ... a suitable switch in place.
>
What they can do with a smart meter is vary the rate for the whole site
remotely on a minute by minute basis if required. No switching needed.
Unlike the old Economy 7 tariff, it doesn't use a code on Radio 4 long wave.

If you have IoT compatible stuff, that can also, potentially, be turned
off remotely to avoid overloading the local grid.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Henry Nebrensky wrote:

> doesn't Economy 7 requires switching 50+ amps[*] nightly? I'm sceptical they
> would implement the gubbins for that in every meter, on the off-chance it
> goes into an E7 property, given there would already be .

There's a 100A contactor in every smartmeter that can disconnect the whole
supply. I doubt they'd put a separate contactor for E7 in the meters, when they
can just supply an on/off signal to an external switching device (same as the
clockwork or radio4 signalling methods).

On Wednesday, 29 December 2021 at 21:50:36 UTC, John Williamson wrote:
> On 29/12/2021 21:41, Henry Nebrensky wrote:
> >
> >> For existing appliances, doesn't Economy 7 requires switching 50+ amps[*] nightly? I'm sceptical they would implement the gubbins for that in every meter, on the off-chance it goes into an E7 property, given there would already be .
> > ... a suitable switch in place.
> >
> What they can do with a smart meter is vary the rate for the whole site
> remotely on a minute by minute basis if required. No switching needed.

No, something's still got to switch the entire Economy 7 branch of the electrickery on and off, as legacy storage heaters/immersion heaters don't do that themselves. Not switching on the E7 is why Brian got cold and started this thread...

> Unlike the old Economy 7 tariff, it doesn't use a code on Radio 4 long wave.

Hmm, I wonder if there are any subliminal messages hidden in ISIHAC on DAB?

Hope this helps

Henry