I'm terribly sorry to have missed the opportunity to wish everyone a
Happy French Car-burning Day.

The old traditions seem to be fading away, since the 874 cars set on
fire this New Year's Eve wasn't a patch on the efforts in 2019.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59847372

--
Sam Plusnet

Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
engine and transmission.
Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:mI2AJ.1376457$LNrd.557304@fx09.ams1...
> I'm terribly sorry to have missed the opportunity to wish everyone a Happy
> French Car-burning Day.
>
> The old traditions seem to be fading away, since the 874 cars set on fire
> this New Year's Eve wasn't a patch on the efforts in 2019.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59847372
>
>
> --
> Sam Plusnet

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 09:47:46 -0000
"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned.
> Just hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.

Mag wheels, which TBF have mostly been displaced by aluminium alloy
wheels.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
> Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
> engine and transmission.
> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.

Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
all magnesium.

Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 02/01/2022 13:25, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
>>   Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them  GRP
>> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal
>> from the
>> engine and transmission.
>>   Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or
>> burned. Just
>> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
>
> Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
> instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
> all magnesium.
>
> Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...
>

Someone has recently posted on YouTube an attempt to raise money to
replace his battery exhausted Tesla, by polluting the environment
explosively, receiving millions of views...

of small burnt fragments. Seems not much left.

If ye are unlucky to be in a fire in one of those, mercilessly you won't
feel unlucky for long ...

--
Adrian C

On 02/01/2022 13:45, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

> Someone has recently posted on YouTube an attempt to raise money to
> replace his battery exhausted Tesla, by polluting the environment
> explosively, receiving millions of views...
>
> of small burnt fragments. Seems not much left.
>
> If ye are unlucky to be in a fire in one of those, mercilessly you won't
> feel unlucky for long ...
>
They usually start slowly enough to give you time to stop and get out,
though you may not have time to grab your phone or laptop.

Lithium battery fires are spectacular. I saw a car with such batteries
disassembling itself on the M62 a while ago. They kept everyone
including the fire service personnel a long way away, and every few
seconds, another cell went "Foof!" in the large ball of flames which
formed as the plastic body and alloy wheels and tyres burned merrily
away. When I drove past a while later on the way back, the burnt patch
was impressively large and sort of molten looking. The following day,
all that could be seen was a patch of new tarmac on the hard shoulder.

The real danger is that once you do put the fire out and get the remains
somewhere safe, they have a nasty habit of spontaneously re-igniting up
to 48 hours later.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article <sqs94f$6cu$1@dont-email.me>, RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@foobar.
girolle.co.uk> on Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 13:25:33 awoke Nicholas from his
slumbers and wrote
>On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
>> Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
>> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
>> engine and transmission.
>> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
>> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
>
>Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
>instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
>all magnesium.
>
>Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...
>
From what I remember of my Chemistry of much more than half a century
ago, iron wool heated until it glows will burn well in an Oxygen rich
atmosphere but when returned to a normal Oxygen atmosphere it stops
burning.

In fact modern versions of the Bessemer process use purish oxygen to
remove the carbon, magnesium, etc impurities in the raw iron. The molten
iron does not burn once the oxygen is no longer been blowing through the
furnace.

On the other hand a magnesium fire once started is extremely difficult
to extinguish. Water provides a concentrated source of Oxygen and the
exothermic reaction continues, producing highly explosive hydrogen to
add to the complexity. Carbon Dioxide reacts with burning Magnesium in a
similar exothermic and explosive way. I understand that dry sand, lots
of it was advised to extinguish a magnesium fire.

--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

On 02/01/2022 15:56, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
> In article <sqs94f$6cu$1@dont-email.me>, RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@foobar.
> girolle.co.uk> on Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 13:25:33 awoke Nicholas from his
> slumbers and wrote
>> On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>>> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
>>> Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
>>> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
>>> engine and transmission.
>>> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
>>> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
>>
>> Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
>> instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
>> all magnesium.
>>
>> Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...
>>
> From what I remember of my Chemistry of much more than half a century
> ago, iron wool heated until it glows will burn well in an Oxygen rich
> atmosphere but when returned to a normal Oxygen atmosphere it stops
> burning.

try mixing some shredded sisal and iron wool. A spark will ignite it and
it burns rather like a blast furnace. Excellent camping aid - in small
parcels.

> In fact modern versions of the Bessemer process use purish oxygen to
> remove the carbon, magnesium, etc impurities in the raw iron. The molten
> iron does not burn once the oxygen is no longer been blowing through the
> furnace.
>
> On the other hand a magnesium fire once started is extremely difficult
> to extinguish. Water provides a concentrated source of Oxygen and the
> exothermic reaction continues, producing highly explosive hydrogen to
> add to the complexity. Carbon Dioxide reacts with burning Magnesium in a
> similar exothermic and explosive way. I understand that dry sand, lots
> of it was advised to extinguish a magnesium fire.

Titanium burns like magnesium only worserer. If you get a piece burning
and you drop it into water, it will continue to burn under the surface,
and ignite the hydrogen released. Two fires for the price of one.

--
Rusty Hinge (Onetime fireman in the Murex [B.O.C.] Fire Brigade.)

To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
"Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:

> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish a
> magnesium fire.

Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and oxygen
apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed to chlorine
triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too brief to contemplate
extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved in which case I want to be a
long long long way away.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 02/01/2022 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
> "Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish a
>> magnesium fire.
>
> Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and oxygen
> apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed to chlorine
> triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too brief to contemplate
> extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved in which case I want to be a
> long long long way away.
>
"Things I won't work with" part 1,098.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 19:12:32 +0000
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

> On 02/01/2022 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
> > "Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish a
> >> magnesium fire.
> >
> > Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and oxygen
> > apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed to chlorine
> > triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too brief to
> > contemplate extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved in which
> > case I want to be a long long long way away.
> >
> "Things I won't work with" part 1,098.

I don't think anyone had made the pentaflouride when he wrote that,
it's apparently much the same as the triflouride but rather more vigorously
reactive and less stable.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@foobar.girolle.co.uk> writes:

> Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
> instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
> all magnesium.

Dunno about the engine crankcases but the early-60s transmissions
were Mg. I set one on fire trying to cut off the part where the
starter motor bolts on with an oxy-acet torch. I knew it wasn't
going to cut like steel, of course, but gooved I could melt out a
channel as I'd done w/ alumininium. Nice little sputtery fire, column
of dense flocculent smoke rising to the (happily high) rafters.

Alarums and excursions. I did, however, end up with a (somewhat
ragged and dribbly) chunk of transmission case that could be used to
mount a starter on an engine while on a repair stand.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <20220102175148.f015d68c6b948cf0e9587806@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
>"Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish
>> a magnesium fire.
>
> Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and
>oxygen apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed
>to chlorine triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too
>brief to contemplate extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved
>in which case I want to be a long long long way away.

Reminds me of:

It [chlorine trifluoride] is, of course, extremely toxic, but
that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known
fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been
measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood,
and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water -- with
which it reacts explosively.
It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals -- steel,
copper, aluminum, etc -- because of the formation of a thin film of
insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just
as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up
in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed
off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with
the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with
this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running
shoes.
-- "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket
Propellants", John Drury Clarke, Rutgers University
Press, 1972, 214 pages. ISBN 00-8135-0725-1

Thinks, must get myself a new copy:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ignition-Informal-Propellants-University-Classics/dp/0813595835
--
Dennis Davis <dennisdavis@fastmail.fm>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:54:56 -0000 (UTC), Dennis Davis
<dennisdavis@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>In article <20220102175148.f015d68c6b948cf0e9587806@eircom.net>,
>Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
>>"Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish
>>> a magnesium fire.
>>
>> Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and
>>oxygen apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed
>>to chlorine triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too
>>brief to contemplate extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved
>>in which case I want to be a long long long way away.
>
>Reminds me of:
>
> It [chlorine trifluoride] is, of course, extremely toxic, but
> that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known
> fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been
> measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood,
> and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water -- with
> which it reacts explosively.
> It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals -- steel,
> copper, aluminum, etc -- because of the formation of a thin film of
> insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just
> as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up
> in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed
> off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with
> the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with
> this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running
> shoes.
> -- "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket
> Propellants", John Drury Clarke, Rutgers University
> Press, 1972, 214 pages. ISBN 00-8135-0725-1
>
>Thinks, must get myself a new copy:
>
>https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ignition-Informal-Propellants-University-Classics/dp/0813595835

Many years ago some sheddi - maybe yourself? - pointed out an on-line
version so that link should be somewhere in the archive of ye shedde.
I'm not going to Google for that right now...

Nick

In article <2dg5tgld1f8ujg69hmfgv4a3h4jqsgar5j@4ax.com>,
Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:54:56 -0000 (UTC), Dennis Davis
><dennisdavis@fastmail.fm> wrote:

....

>>Thinks, must get myself a new copy:
>>
>>https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ignition-Informal-Propellants-University-Classics/dp/0813595835
>
>Many years ago some sheddi - maybe yourself? - pointed out an on-line
>version so that link should be somewhere in the archive of ye shedde.
>I'm not going to Google for that right now...

No need. Humanoid (that's me, allegedly) help is at hand. Online
PDF is available from:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf

An epub version of the book was kindly emailed to me by Steve
O'Hara-Smith of this parish.
--
Dennis Davis <dennisdavis@fastmail.fm>

On Mon, 03 Jan 2022 09:33:17 +0000
Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:54:56 -0000 (UTC), Dennis Davis
> <dennisdavis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
Press, 1972, 214 pages. ISBN 00-8135-0725-1
> >
> >Thinks, must get myself a new copy:
> >
> >https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ignition-Informal-Propellants-University-Classics/dp/0813595835
>
> Many years ago some sheddi - maybe yourself? - pointed out an on-line
> version so that link should be somewhere in the archive of ye shedde.
> I'm not going to Google for that right now...

I prepared an epub from one of the easily found PDFs (the
equations were fun) with the proof-reading help of several sheddi and
offered it to the copyright holders as well as putting it up on sohara.org.
I've taken it down now that an official epub is available at a reasonable
cevpr (at the time it was out of print and print copies were changing hands
for very silly zu).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Dennis Davis <dennisdavis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> In article <2dg5tgld1f8ujg69hmfgv4a3h4jqsgar5j@4ax.com>,
> Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:54:56 -0000 (UTC), Dennis Davis
>> <dennisdavis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>>> Thinks, must get myself a new copy:
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ignition-Informal-Propellants-University-Classics/dp/0813595835
>>
>> Many years ago some sheddi - maybe yourself? - pointed out an on-line
>> version so that link should be somewhere in the archive of ye shedde.
>> I'm not going to Google for that right now...
>
> No need. Humanoid (that's me, allegedly) help is at hand. Online
> PDF is available from:
>
> http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf
>
> An epub version of the book was kindly emailed to me by Steve
> O'Hara-Smith of this parish.

Oo, ta for that. Had already looked on the bay of fleas for an old copy.
Got it saved on my i-thingy now.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 10:33:28 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 Jan 2022 09:33:17 +0000
>Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:54:56 -0000 (UTC), Dennis Davis
>> <dennisdavis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Press, 1972, 214 pages. ISBN 00-8135-0725-1
>> >
>> >Thinks, must get myself a new copy:
>> >
>> >https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ignition-Informal-Propellants-University-Classics/dp/0813595835
>>
>> Many years ago some sheddi - maybe yourself? - pointed out an on-line
>> version so that link should be somewhere in the archive of ye shedde.
>> I'm not going to Google for that right now...
>
> I prepared an epub from one of the easily found PDFs (the
>equations were fun) with the proof-reading help of several sheddi and
>offered it to the copyright holders as well as putting it up on sohara.org.
>I've taken it down now that an official epub is available at a reasonable
>cevpr (at the time it was out of print and print copies were changing hands
>for very silly zu).

Apols for not recalling your name there, Steve. The "Un" keeps falling
off my forgettery far more frequently these days. I blame the
shakeproof washers.

Nick

On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.

It's used for some components on some motorcycles. In big lumpy form,
like an engine cover, it's not easy to set on fire, and can be welded.

"Goggles, gloves, and other equipment designed to protect the eyes and
skin of the welder must be worn. The possibility of fire caused by
welding magnesium metal is very remote. The temperature of initial
fusion must be reached before solid magnesium metal ignites. Sustained
burning occurs only if this temperature is maintained. Finely divided
magnesium particles such as grinding dust, filings, shavings, borings,
and chips present a fire hazard. They ignite readily if proper
precautions are not taken. Magnesium scrap of this type is not common in
welding operations. If a magnesium fire does start, it can be
extinguished with dry sand, dry powdered soapstone, or dry cast iron
chips. The preferred extinguishing agents for magnesium fires are
graphite-based powders."

On 02/01/2022 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
> "Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish a
>> magnesium fire.
>
> Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and oxygen
> apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed to chlorine
> triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too brief to contemplate
> extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved in which case I want to be a
> long long long way away.

Even if you start close by, very shortly you will be a long long way
away, and possibly no longer contiguous.

On 3 Jan 2022 11:47:28 GMT
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oo, ta for that. Had already looked on the bay of fleas for an old copy.
> Got it saved on my i-thingy now.

Want the epub ? Does your kneemail jbex ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Mon, 03 Jan 2022 11:54:33 +0000
Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:

> Apols for not recalling your name there, Steve. The "Un" keeps falling
> off my forgettery far more frequently these days. I blame the
> shakeproof washers.

No need to apologise - we all disunforget most things, me
especially.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 03/01/2022 07:19, Mike Spencer wrote:
> RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@foobar.girolle.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
>> instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
>> all magnesium.
>
> Dunno about the engine crankcases but the early-60s transmissions
> were Mg. I set one on fire trying to cut off the part where the
> starter motor bolts on with an oxy-acet torch. I knew it wasn't
> going to cut like steel, of course, but gooved I could melt out a
> channel as I'd done w/ alumininium. Nice little sputtery fire, column
> of dense flocculent smoke rising to the (happily high) rafters.
>
> Alarums and excursions. I did, however, end up with a (somewhat
> ragged and dribbly) chunk of transmission case that could be used to
> mount a starter on an engine while on a repair stand.

In another life a scrapyard owner used to keep anything motorcycle for
me, and flog the bits at scrap ally prices to me - had some memorable
items: Wall Auto Wheel; 1910-ish 2¾ HP Douglas engine; complete (but
wrecked) DBD BSA B34 Glod Star; 90+ Douglas (pranged); can't unforget
any more...

One day I saw him put a VW Beetle injun on the heap of stuff to me
melted. The furnace was a firebrick affair with vapourised kerosene jets
playing on the metal. I warned him about the Beetleinjun, and that it
would likelyburn away with expenditure of much heat and a 'normouse
amount of light, but he said he'd melted them before OK.

Next time I saw him he had 'seen the light'.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

Dennis Davis wrote:

> "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants"
> John Drury Clarke

People who bought this book, also watch this youtube channel

<https://www.youtube.com/c/ChemicalForce/videos>

In article <squdl0$1afm$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Dennis Davis
<dennisdavis@fastmail.fm> on Mon, 3 Jan 2022 at 08:54:56 awoke Nicholas
from his slumbers and wrote

> If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed
> off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with
> the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with
> this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running
> shoes.
> -- "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket
> Propellants", John Drury Clarke, Rutgers University
> Press, 1972, 214 pages. ISBN 00-8135-0725-1
>
Reminds me of an inquiry into a coal pit fire:

Coal cutting machine operator: ".......and then there was a bloody big
bang, flames and sparks from the machine"

Counsel to the enquiry: "and what steps did you then take"

Coal cutting machine operator: "Bloody big ones"

The expletives were probably just a tad bit stronger.
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"