It's a thing.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104

On 19/10/21 11:11 am, Clocky wrote:
> It's a thing.
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>
Seems so. Just saw that story last night. Interesting but the cost is
prohibitive. Only for classic cars you really want to keep on the road
but which don't need to be 100% original. The problem is the cars being
converted are not designed around battery electric so the battery
placement becomes an issue. The best location for batteries is low and
sandwiched under the floor - like Tesla. In fact the first A Class Benz
was designed this way with a sandwich floor for batteries - they give
the vehicle a low and balanced C of G if the batteries are placed
amidships and low down. Can't recall the A Class ever being used as a
BEV, even though it was designed that way. The new A Class, however, has
a BEV variant but it is a new design bearing no resemblance to the old
original A Class.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:11:59 +0800, Clocky wrote:

> It's a thing.
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104

Interesting read.

The reality of a Beetle that you can't hear coming from a kilometre away is
a bit scary...

alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
> It's a thing.
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>
http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html

On 19/10/2021 4:41 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
>> It's a thing.
>>
>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>>
> http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html

Mmmmmm... Grouse. Made in China, top speed 60km/h, and going into
production in 2013.

I think I would prefer a regular A series powered Moke thanks :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 19/10/21 5:21 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 19/10/2021 4:41 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
>>> It's a thing.
>>>
>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>>>
>> http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html
>
> Mmmmmm... Grouse. Made in China, top speed 60km/h, and going into
> production in 2013.
>
> I think I would prefer a regular A series powered Moke thanks :)
>
>
>
Me too, what a joke that Chinese Moke is.
Also not a fan of converting classics to electric especially if they are
rare, not a problem converting if there are lots of a common model but
not rare classics, to me its vandalism.

--
Daryl

On 19/10/2021 10:51 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 19/10/21 5:21 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 19/10/2021 4:41 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
>>>> It's a thing.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>>>>
>>> http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html
>>
>> Mmmmmm... Grouse. Made in China, top speed 60km/h, and going into
>> production in 2013.
>>
>> I think I would prefer a regular A series powered Moke thanks :)
>>
>>
>>
> Me too, what a joke that Chinese Moke is.

Sure is.

It looks like it was originally to be released in 2014 but never got off
the ground here. Hardly surprising really as it's hideous *and*
impractical. They apparently sold a handful in the US, but I'm not sure
if they're still available.

> Also not a fan of converting classics to electric especially if they are
> rare, not a problem converting if there are lots of a common model but
> not rare classics, to me its vandalism.

I couldn't care less. What other people do with their stuff is their
business, although I don't quite understand why you'd *want* to. I mean,
to me the attraction of older cars is all the characteristic little
traits they all had, and given that most of those little characteristic
traits related to the mechanical aspect of the things taking all that
away and swapping it with an electric motor and a bank of batteries just
turns them into an elaborate golf cart.

I can't imagine anything more boring than having a classic muscle car
that *didn't* make any noise.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 19/10/2021 7:51 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 19/10/21 5:21 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 19/10/2021 4:41 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
>>>> It's a thing.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>>>>
>>> http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html
>>
>> Mmmmmm... Grouse. Made in China, top speed 60km/h, and going into
>> production in 2013.
>>
>> I think I would prefer a regular A series powered Moke thanks :)
>>
>>
>>
> Me too, what a joke that Chinese Moke is.
> Also not a fan of converting classics to electric especially if they are
> rare, not a problem converting if there are lots of a common model but
> not rare classics, to me its vandalism.
>
>

No different to hotrodding/customised classic cars.

On 19/10/21 11:34 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 19/10/2021 10:51 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 19/10/21 5:21 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2021 4:41 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> It's a thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html
>>>
>>> Mmmmmm... Grouse. Made in China, top speed 60km/h, and going into
>>> production in 2013.
>>>
>>> I think I would prefer a regular A series powered Moke thanks :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Me too, what a joke that Chinese Moke is.
>
> Sure is.
>
> It looks like it was originally to be released in 2014 but never got off
> the ground here. Hardly surprising really as it's hideous *and*
> impractical. They apparently sold a handful in the US, but I'm not sure
> if they're still available.
>
>> Also not a fan of converting classics to electric especially if they
>> are rare, not a problem converting if there are lots of a common model
>> but not rare classics, to me its vandalism.
>
> I couldn't care less. What other people do with their stuff is their
> business, although I don't quite understand why you'd *want* to. I mean,
> to me the attraction of older cars is all the characteristic little
> traits they all had, and given that most of those little characteristic
> traits related to the mechanical aspect of the things taking all that
> away and swapping it with an electric motor and a bank of batteries just
> turns them into an elaborate golf cart.
>
> I can't imagine anything more boring than having a classic muscle car
> that *didn't* make any noise.
>
>
>
It would certainly seem strange.
The ABC article showed a pic of a Mk1 Cortina supposedly converted to
electric, too me that's crazy because they are getting rare especially
GT's.

--
Daryl

On 20/10/2021 9:29 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 19/10/21 11:34 pm, Noddy wrote:

>>> Also not a fan of converting classics to electric especially if they
>>> are rare, not a problem converting if there are lots of a common
>>> model but not rare classics, to me its vandalism.
>>
>> I couldn't care less. What other people do with their stuff is their
>> business, although I don't quite understand why you'd *want* to. I
>> mean, to me the attraction of older cars is all the characteristic
>> little traits they all had, and given that most of those little
>> characteristic traits related to the mechanical aspect of the things
>> taking all that away and swapping it with an electric motor and a bank
>> of batteries just turns them into an elaborate golf cart.
>>
>> I can't imagine anything more boring than having a classic muscle car
>> that *didn't* make any noise.
>>
>>
>>
> It would certainly seem strange.

Indeed it would.

> The ABC article showed a pic of a Mk1 Cortina supposedly converted to
> electric, too me that's crazy because they are getting rare especially
> GT's.

Yeah, I just don't get it.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 20/10/21 10:15 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 20/10/2021 9:29 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 19/10/21 11:34 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>>> Also not a fan of converting classics to electric especially if they
>>>> are rare, not a problem converting if there are lots of a common
>>>> model but not rare classics, to me its vandalism.
>>>
>>> I couldn't care less. What other people do with their stuff is their
>>> business, although I don't quite understand why you'd *want* to. I
>>> mean, to me the attraction of older cars is all the characteristic
>>> little traits they all had, and given that most of those little
>>> characteristic traits related to the mechanical aspect of the things
>>> taking all that away and swapping it with an electric motor and a
>>> bank of batteries just turns them into an elaborate golf cart.
>>>
>>> I can't imagine anything more boring than having a classic muscle car
>>> that *didn't* make any noise.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> It would certainly seem strange.
>
> Indeed it would.
>
>> The ABC article showed a pic of a Mk1 Cortina supposedly converted to
>> electric, too me that's crazy because they are getting rare especially
>> GT's.
>
> Yeah, I just don't get it.
>
>
There's a lot of things you didn't get - like apprenticeships or trade
qualifications. And that really gets under your skin!

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 20/10/21 9:29 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 19/10/21 11:34 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 19/10/2021 10:51 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 19/10/21 5:21 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 19/10/2021 4:41 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>>>> On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>> It's a thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html
>>>>
>>>> Mmmmmm... Grouse. Made in China, top speed 60km/h, and going into
>>>> production in 2013.
>>>>
>>>> I think I would prefer a regular A series powered Moke thanks :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Me too, what a joke that Chinese Moke is.
>>
>> Sure is.
>>
>> It looks like it was originally to be released in 2014 but never got
>> off the ground here. Hardly surprising really as it's hideous *and*
>> impractical. They apparently sold a handful in the US, but I'm not
>> sure if they're still available.
>>
>>> Also not a fan of converting classics to electric especially if they
>>> are rare, not a problem converting if there are lots of a common
>>> model but not rare classics, to me its vandalism.
>>
>> I couldn't care less. What other people do with their stuff is their
>> business, although I don't quite understand why you'd *want* to. I
>> mean, to me the attraction of older cars is all the characteristic
>> little traits they all had, and given that most of those little
>> characteristic traits related to the mechanical aspect of the things
>> taking all that away and swapping it with an electric motor and a bank
>> of batteries just turns them into an elaborate golf cart.
>>
>> I can't imagine anything more boring than having a classic muscle car
>> that *didn't* make any noise.
>>
>>
>>
> It would certainly seem strange.
> The ABC article showed a pic of a Mk1 Cortina supposedly converted to
> electric, too me that's crazy because they are getting rare especially
> GT's.
>
It's called keeping up with the times Daryl. Yes, I know, you have a
problem with that.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 20/10/21 3:16 am, Clocky wrote:
> On 19/10/2021 7:51 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 19/10/21 5:21 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2021 4:41 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> It's a thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html
>>>
>>> Mmmmmm... Grouse. Made in China, top speed 60km/h, and going into
>>> production in 2013.
>>>
>>> I think I would prefer a regular A series powered Moke thanks :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Me too, what a joke that Chinese Moke is.
>> Also not a fan of converting classics to electric especially if they
>> are rare, not a problem converting if there are lots of a common model
>> but not rare classics, to me its vandalism.
>>
>>
>
> No different to hotrodding/customised classic cars.
>
>
>
We will see *ElectroRodding* next! ;-)

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 10/19/2021 5:21 PM, Noddy wrote:
> On 19/10/2021 4:41 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 19/10/2021 10:11 am, Clocky wrote:
>>> It's a thing.
>>>
>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-18/converting-classic-cars-to-electric-vehicles/100533104
>>>
>> http://www.mokemotors.com.au/emoke.html
>
> Mmmmmm... Grouse. Made in China, top speed 60km/h, and going into
> production in 2013.
>
> I think I would prefer a regular A series powered Moke thanks :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  This:

*eMoke*.*No fuel, no cost, no carbon footprint and no worries.*

All bullshit!

>
>
>

--
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea. Massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." — Gene
Spafford, 1992

On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 9:33:31 AM UTC+8, Xeno wrote:
> >
> Seems so. Just saw that story last night. Interesting but the cost is
> prohibitive. Only for classic cars you really want to keep on the road
> but which don't need to be 100% original. The problem is the cars being
> converted are not designed around battery electric so the battery
> placement becomes an issue. The best location for batteries is low and
> sandwiched under the floor - like Tesla. In fact the first A Class Benz
> was designed this way with a sandwich floor for batteries - they give
> the vehicle a low and balanced C of G if the batteries are placed
> amidships and low down. Can't recall the A Class ever being used as a
> BEV, even though it was designed that way. The new A Class, however, has
> a BEV variant but it is a new design bearing no resemblance to the old
> original A Class.
>

So in an old Falcodore ute, putting the batteries where the fuel tank is, would great for weight distribution.

On 21/10/21 10:35 pm, Falscher Bruce wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 9:33:31 AM UTC+8, Xeno wrote:
>>>
>> Seems so. Just saw that story last night. Interesting but the cost is
>> prohibitive. Only for classic cars you really want to keep on the road
>> but which don't need to be 100% original. The problem is the cars being
>> converted are not designed around battery electric so the battery
>> placement becomes an issue. The best location for batteries is low and
>> sandwiched under the floor - like Tesla. In fact the first A Class Benz
>> was designed this way with a sandwich floor for batteries - they give
>> the vehicle a low and balanced C of G if the batteries are placed
>> amidships and low down. Can't recall the A Class ever being used as a
>> BEV, even though it was designed that way. The new A Class, however, has
>> a BEV variant but it is a new design bearing no resemblance to the old
>> original A Class.
>>
>
> So in an old Falcodore ute, putting the batteries where the fuel tank is, would great for weight distribution.
>

Only if you didn't need a lot of range.
Fuel tank isn't all that big so if you needed more range you would need
to find more space for batteries.

--
Daryl

On 21/10/21 10:35 pm, Falscher Bruce wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 9:33:31 AM UTC+8, Xeno wrote:
>>>
>> Seems so. Just saw that story last night. Interesting but the cost is
>> prohibitive. Only for classic cars you really want to keep on the road
>> but which don't need to be 100% original. The problem is the cars being
>> converted are not designed around battery electric so the battery
>> placement becomes an issue. The best location for batteries is low and
>> sandwiched under the floor - like Tesla. In fact the first A Class Benz
>> was designed this way with a sandwich floor for batteries - they give
>> the vehicle a low and balanced C of G if the batteries are placed
>> amidships and low down. Can't recall the A Class ever being used as a
>> BEV, even though it was designed that way. The new A Class, however, has
>> a BEV variant but it is a new design bearing no resemblance to the old
>> original A Class.
>>
>
> So in an old Falcodore ute, putting the batteries where the fuel tank is, would great for weight distribution.
>
One would think so. In front of the rear axle so the weight is near the
C of G. Way better than having the batteries *behind* the rear axle as
that would give you a large polar moment of inertia and that could get
ugly on the handling side of things. Probably as low as you can get the
batteries too without compromising road clearance. If using Lithiums,
you would need to pay attention to cooling, they get a bit narky if you
let them get overly hot. I wonder what battery capacity you could fit in
there and still manage adequate cooling? Seen the battery pack in a
Tesla? They are huge!

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 7:57:42 PM UTC+8, Daryl wrote:
>
> Only if you didn't need a lot of range.
> Fuel tank isn't all that big so if you needed more range you would need
> to find more space for batteries.

I had a look at the lithium batteries online, somebody claiming 300 Ah for their brand.
Might be able to squeeze 8 of them in, would only give about 30 kWh capacity, half of Tesla's 3 model.

On 23/10/21 7:57 pm, Falscher Bruce wrote:
> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 7:57:42 PM UTC+8, Daryl wrote:
>>
>> Only if you didn't need a lot of range.
>> Fuel tank isn't all that big so if you needed more range you would need
>> to find more space for batteries.
>
> I had a look at the lithium batteries online, somebody claiming 300 Ah for their brand.
> Might be able to squeeze 8 of them in, would only give about 30 kWh capacity, half of Tesla's 3 model.
>
It's not a matter of simply *squeezing them in*. Lithium battery cells
need cooling, sometimes quite aggressive cooling at that. The Tesla has
a complete pumped cooling system *just* for the lithium batteries alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU-u-tUjsXo
An effective battery thermal management system is absolute pre-requisite
with lithium-ion batteries to manage battery temperatures to prevent
degradation or thermal runaway. The object of a lithium-ion battery
thermal management system is to keep battery temperatures in the range
20C - 30C. If the battery *environmental* temperature is lower than
that, the performance will be degraded. At or below -5C the battery
cannot be fast charged. At or below 0C the battery will lose charge
which will result in a loss of power, acceleration and range.
If the battery temperature exceeds 30C, battery performance will be
degraded. Above 40C and the battery can suffer serious and irreversible
damage. Above 70C there is a real risk of thermal runaway and you really
don't want a thermal runaway in lithium-ion car batteries. It gets
seriously nasty since the heat self-generates.

The above is also the reason why a lot of electric car hobbyists use
deep cycle lead acid batteries, much safer.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/10/2021 9:10 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 23/10/21 7:57 pm, Falscher Bruce wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 7:57:42 PM UTC+8, Daryl wrote:
>>>
>>> Only if you didn't need a lot of range.
>>> Fuel tank isn't all that big so if you needed more range you would need
>>> to find more space for batteries.
>>
>> I had a look at the lithium batteries online, somebody claiming 300
>> Ah for their brand.
>> Might be able to squeeze 8 of them in, would only give about 30 kWh
>> capacity, half of Tesla's 3 model.
>>
> It's not a matter of simply *squeezing them in*. Lithium battery cells
> need cooling, sometimes quite aggressive cooling at that. The Tesla
> has a complete pumped cooling system *just* for the lithium batteries
> alone.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU-u-tUjsXo
> An effective battery thermal management system is absolute
> pre-requisite with lithium-ion batteries to manage battery
> temperatures to prevent degradation or thermal runaway. The object of
> a lithium-ion battery thermal management system is to keep battery
> temperatures in the range 20C - 30C. If the battery *environmental*
> temperature is lower than that, the performance will be degraded. At
> or below -5C the battery cannot be fast charged. At or below 0C the
> battery will lose charge which will result in a loss of power,
> acceleration and range.
> If the battery temperature exceeds 30C, battery performance will be
> degraded. Above 40C and the battery can suffer serious and
> irreversible damage. Above 70C there is a real risk of thermal runaway
> and you really don't want a thermal runaway in lithium-ion car
> batteries. It gets seriously nasty since the heat self-generates.
>
> The above is also the reason why a lot of electric car hobbyists use
> deep cycle lead acid batteries, much safer.
>
>

sounds to me very much like there needs to be a better battery solution
before EV's become mainstream

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 23/10/21 10:13 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 23/10/2021 9:10 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 23/10/21 7:57 pm, Falscher Bruce wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 7:57:42 PM UTC+8, Daryl wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Only if you didn't need a lot of range.
>>>> Fuel tank isn't all that big so if you needed more range you would need
>>>> to find more space for batteries.
>>>
>>> I had a look at the lithium batteries online, somebody claiming 300
>>> Ah for their brand.
>>> Might be able to squeeze 8 of them in, would only give about 30 kWh
>>> capacity, half of Tesla's 3 model.
>>>
>> It's not a matter of simply *squeezing them in*. Lithium battery cells
>> need cooling, sometimes quite aggressive cooling at that. The Tesla
>> has a complete pumped cooling system *just* for the lithium batteries
>> alone.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU-u-tUjsXo
>> An effective battery thermal management system is absolute
>> pre-requisite with lithium-ion batteries to manage battery
>> temperatures to prevent degradation or thermal runaway. The object of
>> a lithium-ion battery thermal management system is to keep battery
>> temperatures in the range 20C - 30C. If the battery *environmental*
>> temperature is lower than that, the performance will be degraded. At
>> or below -5C the battery cannot be fast charged. At or below 0C the
>> battery will lose charge which will result in a loss of power,
>> acceleration and range.
>> If the battery temperature exceeds 30C, battery performance will be
>> degraded. Above 40C and the battery can suffer serious and
>> irreversible damage. Above 70C there is a real risk of thermal runaway
>> and you really don't want a thermal runaway in lithium-ion car
>> batteries. It gets seriously nasty since the heat self-generates.
>>
>> The above is also the reason why a lot of electric car hobbyists use
>> deep cycle lead acid batteries, much safer.
>>
>>
>
> sounds to me very much like there needs to be a better battery solution
> before EV's become mainstream
>
Yes, I would say so. Lithium has benefits but it also has issues.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/10/2021 7:20 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 23/10/21 10:13 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>> On 23/10/2021 9:10 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>> On 23/10/21 7:57 pm, Falscher Bruce wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 7:57:42 PM UTC+8, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Only if you didn't need a lot of range.
>>>>> Fuel tank isn't all that big so if you needed more range you would
>>>>> need
>>>>> to find more space for batteries.
>>>>
>>>> I had a look at the lithium batteries online, somebody claiming 300
>>>> Ah for their brand.
>>>> Might be able to squeeze 8 of them in, would only give about 30 kWh
>>>> capacity, half of Tesla's 3 model.
>>>>
>>> It's not a matter of simply *squeezing them in*. Lithium battery
>>> cells need cooling, sometimes quite aggressive cooling at that. The
>>> Tesla has a complete pumped cooling system *just* for the lithium
>>> batteries alone.
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU-u-tUjsXo
>>> An effective battery thermal management system is absolute
>>> pre-requisite with lithium-ion batteries to manage battery
>>> temperatures to prevent degradation or thermal runaway. The object of
>>> a lithium-ion battery thermal management system is to keep battery
>>> temperatures in the range 20C - 30C. If the battery *environmental*
>>> temperature is lower than that, the performance will be degraded. At
>>> or below -5C the battery cannot be fast charged. At or below 0C the
>>> battery will lose charge which will result in a loss of power,
>>> acceleration and range.
>>> If the battery temperature exceeds 30C, battery performance will be
>>> degraded. Above 40C and the battery can suffer serious and
>>> irreversible damage. Above 70C there is a real risk of thermal
>>> runaway and you really don't want a thermal runaway in lithium-ion
>>> car batteries. It gets seriously nasty since the heat self-generates.
>>>
>>> The above is also the reason why a lot of electric car hobbyists use
>>> deep cycle lead acid batteries, much safer.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> sounds to me very much like there needs to be a better battery
>> solution before EV's become mainstream
>>
> Yes, I would say so. Lithium has benefits but it also has issues.
>

18650 batteries which make up the packs are also quite volatile outside
of their fairly strict operating parameters... and when one goes up, the
chain reaction ensures they all do. Hundreds of them.

On 24/10/21 11:04 am, Clocky wrote:
> On 23/10/2021 7:20 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 23/10/21 10:13 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>> On 23/10/2021 9:10 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 23/10/21 7:57 pm, Falscher Bruce wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 7:57:42 PM UTC+8, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only if you didn't need a lot of range.
>>>>>> Fuel tank isn't all that big so if you needed more range you would
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to find more space for batteries.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a look at the lithium batteries online, somebody claiming 300
>>>>> Ah for their brand.
>>>>> Might be able to squeeze 8 of them in, would only give about 30 kWh
>>>>> capacity, half of Tesla's 3 model.
>>>>>
>>>> It's not a matter of simply *squeezing them in*. Lithium battery
>>>> cells need cooling, sometimes quite aggressive cooling at that. The
>>>> Tesla has a complete pumped cooling system *just* for the lithium
>>>> batteries alone.
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU-u-tUjsXo
>>>> An effective battery thermal management system is absolute
>>>> pre-requisite with lithium-ion batteries to manage battery
>>>> temperatures to prevent degradation or thermal runaway. The object
>>>> of a lithium-ion battery thermal management system is to keep
>>>> battery temperatures in the range 20C - 30C. If the battery
>>>> *environmental* temperature is lower than that, the performance will
>>>> be degraded. At or below -5C the battery cannot be fast charged. At
>>>> or below 0C the battery will lose charge which will result in a loss
>>>> of power, acceleration and range.
>>>> If the battery temperature exceeds 30C, battery performance will be
>>>> degraded. Above 40C and the battery can suffer serious and
>>>> irreversible damage. Above 70C there is a real risk of thermal
>>>> runaway and you really don't want a thermal runaway in lithium-ion
>>>> car batteries. It gets seriously nasty since the heat self-generates.
>>>>
>>>> The above is also the reason why a lot of electric car hobbyists use
>>>> deep cycle lead acid batteries, much safer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> sounds to me very much like there needs to be a better battery
>>> solution before EV's become mainstream
>>>
>> Yes, I would say so. Lithium has benefits but it also has issues.
>>
>
> 18650 batteries which make up the packs are also quite volatile outside
> of their fairly strict operating parameters... and when one goes up, the
> chain reaction ensures they all do. Hundreds of them.

Indeed, one of the reasons a Tesla battery fire is the very devil to
extinguish. It's a veritable Chernobyl sans radiation.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 8:34:27 AM UTC+8, Xeno wrote:
> >>
> >
> > 18650 batteries which make up the packs are also quite volatile outside
> > of their fairly strict operating parameters... and when one goes up, the
> > chain reaction ensures they all do. Hundreds of them.
> Indeed, one of the reasons a Tesla battery fire is the very devil to
> extinguish. It's a veritable Chernobyl sans radiation.
> --
You need a special fire extinguisher for lithium batteries. They cost $300-350.
I believe at the Tesla car fire in Houston a few months ago, the firies didn't carry one.

On 24/10/2021 11:44 am, Falscher Bruce wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 8:34:27 AM UTC+8, Xeno wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>> 18650 batteries which make up the packs are also quite volatile outside
>>> of their fairly strict operating parameters... and when one goes up, the
>>> chain reaction ensures they all do. Hundreds of them.
>> Indeed, one of the reasons a Tesla battery fire is the very devil to
>> extinguish. It's a veritable Chernobyl sans radiation.
>> --
> You need a special fire extinguisher for lithium batteries. They cost $300-350.
> I believe at the Tesla car fire in Houston a few months ago, the firies didn't carry one.
>

Lithium and water are reactive however once a Lithium battery is burning
your best option is to keep the pack as cool as possible to slow the
burn, contain the fire and protect the surroundings and flooding with
water is the best way to do that.

Once the chain reaction of burning/exploding batteries has started you
have already lost the battle.