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aus+uk / uk.comp.sys.mac / Filesystem character set

SubjectAuthor
* Filesystem character setTimS
+* Filesystem character setRichard Tobin
|`* Filesystem character setTimS
| `* Filesystem character setRichard Tobin
|  +- Filesystem character setChris Ridd
|  `- Filesystem character setTimS
+- Filesystem character setChris Ridd
`- _Filesystem_character_set_-_abcü.txt_(1/1Bruce Horrocks

1
Filesystem character set

<j83p79F2t99U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: timstrea...@greenbee.net (TimS)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Filesystem character set
Date: 28 Feb 2022 11:15:53 GMT
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 by: TimS - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:15 UTC

I just made a file called abcü.txt, on my desktop (2018 Mini with Mojave).
Note the umlaut. In a Terminal window, piping the output of ls into a script
that outputs the filenames and the hex of the name, this comes out as:

abcü.txt
61626375cc882e747874

This shows that the ü is not made using:

U+00FC ü c3 bc LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS

but rather using a combining character:

U+0075 u 75 LATIN SMALL LETTER U
U+0308 ̈ cc 88 COMBINING DIAERESIS

Now, given that I'm not actually looking at a hexdump of the directory blocks,
my question is, is the filename as stored in the directory actually
represented that way under macOS?

What about if I copy the file onto a memory stick formatted with ExFAT, and
then copy onto a Windows machine. If the Windows user uses Explorer to list
the file, will its name show as with a ü or something else. If the Windows
user types the filename into a prompt, and that whatever software tries to
open that file using the name as typed (assuming correct path, permissions)
will it find the file?

--
Tim

Re: Filesystem character set

<svitu6$16bd$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk>

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From: rich...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Filesystem character set
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:40:38 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
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Originator: richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
 by: Richard Tobin - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:40 UTC

In article <j83p79F2t99U1@mid.individual.net>,
TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

>Now, given that I'm not actually looking at a hexdump of the directory blocks,
>my question is, is the filename as stored in the directory actually
>represented that way under macOS?

What is the filesystem type? APFS preserves normalization but provides
normalization-insensitive lookup; HFS+ normalizes to decomposed.

See this (supposedly "retired") document:

https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/FileManagement/Conceptual/APFS_Guide/FAQ/FAQ.html

As a test I ran this C program on two machines (both running High
Sierra), one with an HFS+ disk and one with APFS:

#include <fcntl.h>
#include <unistd.h>

char comp[] = {'c','o','m','p','o','s','e','d','-',0xc3,0xbc,0};
char decomp[] = {'d','e','c','o','m','p','o','s','e','d','-','u',0xcc,0x88,0};

int main(void)
{ int fd;

fd = open(comp, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT, 0777);
write(fd, "x", 1);
close(fd);

fd = open(decomp, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT, 0777);
write(fd, "x", 1);
close(fd);

return 0;
}

It creates two files, one with a decomposed filename and one with
composed one.

On the HFS+ filesystem, ls outputs the decomposed version for both; on
APFS one is composed and the other decomposed.

-- Richard

Re: Filesystem character set

<sviubk$vka$1@dont-email.me>

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From: chrisr...@mac.com (Chris Ridd)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Filesystem character set
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:47:43 +0000
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 by: Chris Ridd - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:47 UTC

On 28/02/2022 11:15, TimS wrote:
> I just made a file called abcü.txt, on my desktop (2018 Mini with Mojave).
> Note the umlaut. In a Terminal window, piping the output of ls into a script
> that outputs the filenames and the hex of the name, this comes out as:
>
> abcü.txt
> 61626375cc882e747874
>
> This shows that the ü is not made using:
>
> U+00FC ü c3 bc LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS
>
> but rather using a combining character:
>
> U+0075 u 75 LATIN SMALL LETTER U
> U+0308 ̈ cc 88 COMBINING DIAERESIS
>
> Now, given that I'm not actually looking at a hexdump of the directory blocks,
> my question is, is the filename as stored in the directory actually
> represented that way under macOS?

HFS+ and APFS behave differently. Check
https://eclecticlight.co/2021/05/08/explainer-unicode-normalization-and-apfs/
and maybe the APFS spec.

> What about if I copy the file onto a memory stick formatted with ExFAT, and
> then copy onto a Windows machine. If the Windows user uses Explorer to list
> the file, will its name show as with a ü or something else. If the Windows
> user types the filename into a prompt, and that whatever software tries to
> open that file using the name as typed (assuming correct path, permissions)
> will it find the file?

It should do whatever the filesystem expects. If ExFAT expects a
particular normalization form, then Apple's ExFAT extension should use
that. Anything else would be madness and would cause massive breakage?

--
Chris

Re: Filesystem character set

<j84tf1F9pf2U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: timstrea...@greenbee.net (TimS)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Filesystem character set
Date: 28 Feb 2022 21:34:25 GMT
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 by: TimS - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 21:34 UTC

On 28 Feb 2022 at 16:40:38 GMT, Richard Tobin <Richard Tobin> wrote:

> In article <j83p79F2t99U1@mid.individual.net>,
> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>
>> Now, given that I'm not actually looking at a hexdump of the directory blocks,
>> my question is, is the filename as stored in the directory actually
>> represented that way under macOS?
>
> What is the filesystem type? APFS preserves normalization but provides
> normalization-insensitive lookup; HFS+ normalizes to decomposed.

APFS. I'm on Mojave.

> See this (supposedly "retired") document:
>
> https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/FileManagement/Conceptual/APFS_Guide/FAQ/FAQ.html
>
> As a test I ran this C program on two machines (both running High
> Sierra), one with an HFS+ disk and one with APFS:
>
> #include <fcntl.h>
> #include <unistd.h>
>
> char comp[] = {'c','o','m','p','o','s','e','d','-',0xc3,0xbc,0};
> char decomp[] = {'d','e','c','o','m','p','o','s','e','d','-','u',0xcc,0x88,0};
>
> int main(void)
> {
> int fd;
>
> fd = open(comp, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT, 0777);
> write(fd, "x", 1);
> close(fd);
>
> fd = open(decomp, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT, 0777);
> write(fd, "x", 1);
> close(fd);
>
> return 0;
> }
>
> It creates two files, one with a decomposed filename and one with
> composed one.
>
> On the HFS+ filesystem, ls outputs the decomposed version for both; on
> APFS one is composed and the other decomposed.

I ran a test similar to yours, but not written in C but in Xojo. Similar in
that I created the filename byte by byte, then wrote a file with it; the
filename used a composed ü (two bytes). I had previously put some text into a
BBEdit text file and saved it, typing the name abcü.txt in the process. This
created a file with apparently a decomposed ü in the name.

Now, in the Xojo app you get a filehandle first and then use it for writing.
So I left my decomposed file where it was and stopped the app with a
breakpoint after getting the handle. The handle properties showed that it had
found the file already on disk. So I stopped it, hid my file, and let it run
again. And it created a new file with a decomposed name, even though I'd
forced the name to be composed as you did.

So it seems APFS creates a decomposed one even if given a composed name.

--
Tim

Re: Filesystem character set

<svjhgf$1gnn$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk>

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From: rich...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Filesystem character set
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 22:14:39 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
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 by: Richard Tobin - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 22:14 UTC

In article <j84tf1F9pf2U1@mid.individual.net>,
TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

>Now, in the Xojo app you get a filehandle first and then use it for writing.
>So I left my decomposed file where it was and stopped the app with a
>breakpoint after getting the handle. The handle properties showed that it had
>found the file already on disk. So I stopped it, hid my file, and let it run
>again. And it created a new file with a decomposed name, even though I'd
>forced the name to be composed as you did.

I don't quite understand this, and I'm not familiar with Xojo. To
clarify:

- you created a file with an editor and found it had a decomposed name
- you got a filehandle for the file in Xojo using a composed name - does
that actually open the file?
- you suspended the Xojo program
- you hid the file - what do you mean by that? moved it somewhere?
- you let the Xojo program continue
- it created a new file - what made it do that? hadn't it still got
the original one open?

One explanation is that Xojo found that the file had a decomposed
name, and therefore used that decomposed name (rather than the
composed one you gave it) when it recreated it. But that's just
conjecture.

The C program shows that APFS does distinguish between files created
with composed and decomposed version of the same name.

-- Richard

Re: Filesystem character set - abcü.txt (1/1) [1K]

<95659840-04c0-a719-14a7-7c4844237722@scorecrow.com>

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From: 07....@scorecrow.com (Bruce Horrocks)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re:_Filesystem_character_set_-_abcü.txt_(1/1
) [1K]
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 22:51:49 +0000
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 by: Bruce Horrocks - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 22:51 UTC

On 28/02/2022 17:08, Wolffan wrote:
> On 2022 Feb 28, TimS wrote
> (in article <j83p79F2t99U1@mid.individual.net>):
>
>> I just made a file called abcü.txt, on my desktop (2018 Mini with Mojave).
>> Note the umlaut. In a Terminal window, piping the output of ls into a script
>> that outputs the filenames and the hex of the name, this comes out as:
>>
>> abcü.txt
>> 61626375cc882e747874
>>
>> This shows that the ü is not made using:
>>
>> U+00FC ü c3 bc LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS
>>
>> but rather using a combining character:
>>
>> U+0075 u 75 LATIN SMALL LETTER U
>> U+0308 ̈ cc 88 COMBINING DIAERESIS
>>
>> Now, given that I'm not actually looking at a hexdump of the directory blocks,
>> my question is, is the filename as stored in the directory actually
>> represented that way under macOS?
>>
>> What about if I copy the file onto a memory stick formatted with ExFAT, and
>> then copy onto a Windows machine. If the Windows user uses Explorer to list
>> the file, will its name show as with a ü or something else. If the Windows
>> user types the filename into a prompt, and that whatever software tries to
>> open that file using the name as typed (assuming correct path, permissions)
>> will it find the file?
>
> if a file named abcü.txt is created on a Mac, or at least on this Mac, and
> saved onto iCloud or OneDrive, it shows as being there _on Macs_. It
> doesn’t show on WinBoxes, or not on either of the two I tried. If it was
> saved to a FAT32 formatted thumb drive, it shows on WinBoxes. Copying it from

FAT32 is not exFAT (which was your original query).

And just to confuse things, exFAT supports Unicode whereas FAT32
supports UCS (the ISO standard), which is almost certainly the same as
Unicode but might be different because UCS differed from Unicode at the
time FAT32 was first released.

So a filename your app has in memory may or may not be changed by the
file read/create routines depending on how diligently the OS developer
paid attention to locale settings and file system types.

TL;DR: you need to repeat your test using an exFAT formatted drive to be
sure the results you got from the FAT32 formatted drive still hold.

> the thumb drive to iCloud or OneDrive on the WinBoxes gets it to show on
> iCloud or OneDrive on Macs, too.
>
> Test files created with MS Word and TextEdit on Mac. File set to conform to
> ‘MS-DOS’ text file rules. File opens in NotePad on Windows. File content
> unchanged. (’This is a test’)
>
> I suspect that something about the filename causes iCloud and OneDrive to not
> let it pass, but that sticking it on the FAT32 volume makes a change.
>

--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey, England

Re: Filesystem character set

<svl56n$fv1$1@dont-email.me>

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From: chrisr...@mac.com (Chris Ridd)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Filesystem character set
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 12:56:55 +0000
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 by: Chris Ridd - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 12:56 UTC

On 28/02/2022 22:14, Richard Tobin wrote:
> The C program shows that APFS does distinguish between files created
> with composed and decomposed version of the same name.

You do need to go straight to the POSIX layer to be able to really
understand what's happening. Xojo - some sort of BASIC? - could indeed
be adding a convenience layer on top which could screw with Tim.

--
Chris

Re: Filesystem character set

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From: timstrea...@greenbee.net (TimS)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Filesystem character set
Date: 1 Mar 2022 18:10:05 GMT
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 by: TimS - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 18:10 UTC

On 28 Feb 2022 at 22:14:39 GMT, Richard Tobin <Richard Tobin> wrote:

> In article <j84tf1F9pf2U1@mid.individual.net>,
> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>
>> Now, in the Xojo app you get a filehandle first and then use it for writing.
>> So I left my decomposed file where it was and stopped the app with a
>> breakpoint after getting the handle. The handle properties showed that it had
>> found the file already on disk. So I stopped it, hid my file, and let it run
>> again. And it created a new file with a decomposed name, even though I'd
>> forced the name to be composed as you did.
>
> I don't quite understand this, and I'm not familiar with Xojo. To
> clarify:
>
> - you created a file with an editor and found it had a decomposed name

Yes.

> - you got a filehandle for the file in Xojo using a composed name - does
> that actually open the file?

No, the file opening comes subsequently. But in the Xojo debugger I could see
the properties of the file handle that pertain to the file, so that I know
that (1) it exists, (2) it's not a directory, (3) its size in bytes, (4) its
name, (5) that it's both readable and writeable. This is all enough to tell me
that the filehandle refers to the existing file with the decomposed name, even
though the name I supplied to get the filehandle was a composed name.

But looking more carefully at these properties, it appears that although I
supply a composed name, Xojo by then had a decomposed name. Whether this means
that the Xojo framework for macOS did the decomposition itself, or whether it
supplied the composed name to whatever API it uses to access the file system,
and then was given back a decomposed one, I know not. But either would explain
what I observed.

One of the references supplied upthread did seem to imply that there is an
extra layer between APFS and APIs.

--
Tim

1
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