<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:52:55 +0000
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:17:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 20:49:40 +0000
>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 12/12/2023 16:34, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> I think the article is of relevance to the UK because our new trains are
>>>>> heavily software dependent. Although we hope our suppliers don’t get up
>> to
>>>>> anything naughty it’s worth considering. Perhaps train software source
>> code
>>>>
>>>>> should be lodged with the certifying body (perhaps it is?) to guard against
>>
>>>>> this sort of thing, to provide resilience in case the vendor goes bust, or
>>>>> perhaps even if the vendor loses everything due to a ransomware attack.
>>>>> This incident shows how a very expensive train can suddenly become useless.
>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't think a supplier with that level of probity could be trusted
>>>> with supplying an accurate copy of the source code.
>>>>
>>>> What bothers me is that UK purchasers don't learn by their own mistakes
>>>> so they're definitely not going to learn from elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Given the lack of big train manufacturers now due to endless mergers and
>>> takeovers in the last few decades its pretty much hobsons choice for them
>>> these days. Siemens, Alsthom, CAF or Stadler is pretty much it for western
>>> europe now.
>>
>> Hitachi also has two European train factories.
>
> Fair point. Though would anyone risk them again after the problems with the
> 800s?

What about the problems with CAF and Derby trains? And Stadler in
Liverpool? Why did the new Stadler Glasgow Subway trains take so long to
enter service?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:52:55 +0000
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:17:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 20:49:40 +0000
>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/12/2023 16:34, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> I think the article is of relevance to the UK because our new trains are
>>>>>> heavily software dependent. Although we hope our suppliers don’t get up
>>> to
>>>>>> anything naughty it’s worth considering. Perhaps train software source
>>> code
>>>>>
>>>>>> should be lodged with the certifying body (perhaps it is?) to guard against
>>>
>>>>>> this sort of thing, to provide resilience in case the vendor goes bust, or
>>>>>> perhaps even if the vendor loses everything due to a ransomware attack.
>>>>>> This incident shows how a very expensive train can suddenly become useless.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think a supplier with that level of probity could be trusted
>>>>> with supplying an accurate copy of the source code.
>>>>>
>>>>> What bothers me is that UK purchasers don't learn by their own mistakes
>>>>> so they're definitely not going to learn from elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Given the lack of big train manufacturers now due to endless mergers and
>>>> takeovers in the last few decades its pretty much hobsons choice for them
>>>> these days. Siemens, Alsthom, CAF or Stadler is pretty much it for western
>>>> europe now.
>>>
>>> Hitachi also has two European train factories.
>>
>> Fair point. Though would anyone risk them again after the problems with the
>> 800s?
>
> What about the problems with CAF and Derby trains? And Stadler in
> Liverpool? Why did the new Stadler Glasgow Subway trains take so long to
> enter service?
>
>

It's easier to list the train types which have entered service *without* a
drama of some kind, at least to the beginning of diesels (and perhaps
before!).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 20:49:31 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Fair point. Though would anyone risk them again after the problems with the
>> 800s?
>
>What about the problems with CAF and Derby trains? And Stadler in
>Liverpool? Why did the new Stadler Glasgow Subway trains take so long to
>enter service?

AFAIK none of the others had cracks in the actual frame due to poor design.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 20:49:31 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Fair point. Though would anyone risk them again after the problems with the
>>> 800s?
>>
>> What about the problems with CAF and Derby trains? And Stadler in
>> Liverpool? Why did the new Stadler Glasgow Subway trains take so long to
>> enter service?
>
> AFAIK none of the others had cracks in the actual frame due to poor design.
>
>

Keep reading.

On 13/12/2023 22:37, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:52:55 +0000
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:17:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 20:49:40 +0000
>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 16:34, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> I think the article is of relevance to the UK because our new trains are
>>>>>>> heavily software dependent. Although we hope our suppliers don’t get up
>>>> to
>>>>>>> anything naughty it’s worth considering. Perhaps train software source
>>>> code
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> should be lodged with the certifying body (perhaps it is?) to guard against
>>>>
>>>>>>> this sort of thing, to provide resilience in case the vendor goes bust, or
>>>>>>> perhaps even if the vendor loses everything due to a ransomware attack.
>>>>>>> This incident shows how a very expensive train can suddenly become useless.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think a supplier with that level of probity could be trusted
>>>>>> with supplying an accurate copy of the source code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What bothers me is that UK purchasers don't learn by their own mistakes
>>>>>> so they're definitely not going to learn from elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the lack of big train manufacturers now due to endless mergers and
>>>>> takeovers in the last few decades its pretty much hobsons choice for them
>>>>> these days. Siemens, Alsthom, CAF or Stadler is pretty much it for western
>>>>> europe now.
>>>>
>>>> Hitachi also has two European train factories.
>>>
>>> Fair point. Though would anyone risk them again after the problems with the
>>> 800s?
>>
>> What about the problems with CAF and Derby trains? And Stadler in
>> Liverpool? Why did the new Stadler Glasgow Subway trains take so long to
>> enter service?
>>
>>
>
> It's easier to list the train types which have entered service *without* a
> drama of some kind, at least to the beginning of diesels (and perhaps
> before!).
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Bullied's Leader class??

--
Colin

On 14/12/2023 16:31, ColinR wrote:
> On 13/12/2023 22:37, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:52:55 +0000
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:17:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 20:49:40 +0000
>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 16:34, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> I think the article is of relevance to the UK because our new
>>>>>>>> trains are
>>>>>>>> heavily software dependent. Although we hope our suppliers don’t
>>>>>>>> get up
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> anything naughty it’s worth considering. Perhaps train software
>>>>>>>> source
>>>>> code
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> should be lodged with the certifying body (perhaps it is?) to
>>>>>>>> guard against
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this sort of thing, to provide resilience in case the vendor
>>>>>>>> goes bust, or
>>>>>>>> perhaps even if the vendor loses everything due to a ransomware
>>>>>>>> attack.
>>>>>>>> This incident shows how a very expensive train can suddenly
>>>>>>>> become useless.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think a supplier with that level of probity could be trusted
>>>>>>> with supplying an accurate copy of the source code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What bothers me is that UK purchasers don't learn by their own
>>>>>>> mistakes
>>>>>>> so they're definitely not going to learn from elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given the lack of big train manufacturers now due to endless
>>>>>> mergers and
>>>>>> takeovers in the last few decades its pretty much hobsons choice
>>>>>> for them
>>>>>> these days. Siemens, Alsthom, CAF or Stadler is pretty much it for
>>>>>> western
>>>>>> europe now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hitachi also has two European train factories.
>>>>
>>>> Fair point. Though would anyone risk them again after the problems
>>>> with the
>>>> 800s?
>>>
>>> What about the problems with CAF and Derby trains?  And Stadler in
>>> Liverpool?  Why did the new Stadler Glasgow Subway trains take so
>>> long to
>>> enter service?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It's easier to list the train types which have entered service
>> *without* a
>> drama of some kind, at least to the beginning of diesels (and perhaps
>> before!).
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> Bullied's Leader class??
>

I'm told Mr Bulleid was quite a gentle soul.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:17:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>>On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 20:49:40 +0000
>>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>On 12/12/2023 16:34, Tweed wrote:
>>>> I think the article is of relevance to the UK because our new trains
are
>>>> heavily software dependent. Although we hope our suppliers don’t get
up to
>>>> anything naughty it’s worth considering. Perhaps train software source
code
>>>
>>>> should be lodged with the certifying body (perhaps it is?) to guard
against
>>>> this sort of thing, to provide resilience in case the vendor goes
bust, or
>>>> perhaps even if the vendor loses everything due to a ransomware
attack.
>>>> This incident shows how a very expensive train can suddenly become
useless.
>>>
>>>I don't think a supplier with that level of probity could be trusted
>>>with supplying an accurate copy of the source code.
>>>
>>>What bothers me is that UK purchasers don't learn by their own mistakes

>>>so they're definitely not going to learn from elsewhere.
>>
>>Given the lack of big train manufacturers now due to endless mergers and
>>takeovers in the last few decades its pretty much hobsons choice for
them
>>these days. Siemens, Alsthom, CAF or Stadler is pretty much it for
western
>>europe now.

> Hitachi also has two European train factories.

And those
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vossloh_Rolling_Stock
were sold to CRRC.

Regards, ULF