"But," you respond, "She isn't dead yet."

She will be if she gets to hear the last five minutes of Saturday PM.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016gw6

With echoes of The Great Jaffa Cake Debacle, it seems HMRC is going to
court to declare that flapjacks are sweets, not cakes. This could all
turn very nasty - especially if Ambridge gets involved.

<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10723537/Flapjacks-come-unstuck-tribunal-rules-treats-not-cakes.html>

Nick

Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
> "But," you respond, "She isn't dead yet."
>
> She will be if she gets to hear the last five minutes of Saturday PM.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016gw6
>
> With echoes of The Great Jaffa Cake Debacle, it seems HMRC is going to
> court to declare that flapjacks are sweets, not cakes. This could all
> turn very nasty - especially if Ambridge gets involved.
>
> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10723537/Flapjacks-come-unstuck-tribunal-rules-treats-not-cakes.html>
>
> Nick
>

This was discussed on last evening’s “PM”. It matters because of the VAT
levied, can they be made at home or not, but I still can’t see it’s can be
a sweet when it’s made as though it’s a cake. Maybe the Food Prog or
Kitchen Cabinet will elucidate.

Sincerely Chris

Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>> "But," you respond, "She isn't dead yet."
>>
>> She will be if she gets to hear the last five minutes of Saturday PM.
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016gw6
>>
>> With echoes of The Great Jaffa Cake Debacle, it seems HMRC is going to
>> court to declare that flapjacks are sweets, not cakes. This could all
>> turn very nasty - especially if Ambridge gets involved.
>>
>> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10723537/Flapjacks-come-unstuck-tribunal-rules-treats-not-cakes.html>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>
> This was discussed on last evening’s “PM”. It matters because of the VAT
> levied, can they be made at home or not, but I still can’t see it’s can be
> a sweet when it’s made as though it’s a cake. Maybe the Food Prog or
> Kitchen Cabinet will elucidate.
>
> Sincerely Chris
>
>
>
>

ISTR that the definition of a biscuit is something like: A baked item that
is crisp but goes soft when stale.

Similarly, the definition of a cake being: A baked item that is soft but
goes hard when stale.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:33:48 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
<toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> scrawled in the dust...

>Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>>> "But," you respond, "She isn't dead yet."
>>>
>>> She will be if she gets to hear the last five minutes of Saturday PM.
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016gw6
>>>
>>> With echoes of The Great Jaffa Cake Debacle, it seems HMRC is going to
>>> court to declare that flapjacks are sweets, not cakes. This could all
>>> turn very nasty - especially if Ambridge gets involved.
>>>
>>> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10723537/Flapjacks-come-unstuck-tribunal-rules-treats-not-cakes.html>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>
>> This was discussed on last evening’s “PM”. It matters because of the VAT
>> levied, can they be made at home or not, but I still can’t see it’s can be
>> a sweet when it’s made as though it’s a cake. Maybe the Food Prog or
>> Kitchen Cabinet will elucidate.
>>
>> Sincerely Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>ISTR that the definition of a biscuit is something like: A baked item that
>is crisp but goes soft when stale.
>
>Similarly, the definition of a cake being: A baked item that is soft but
>goes hard when stale.

Several things about the whole thing baffle me - and when the line is drawn
between biscuits (vatable) and cake (vat-free) - always have done. This
time they seem to have decided to call flapjacks a sweet - definitely
vatable.

IME, flapjacks can fall into either cake or biscuit class, depending upon
the baker, which recipe they use, and whether they burn them. I've never
had any long enough to go stale, even when I've singed them a bit.

The main point of bafflement is that to be vat-free, a foodstuff must fall
into the 'essential food' class. How on earth did cake get into that
category, but not biscuits/crackers/savoury snacks?

There are, of course, other questions:
Is an American-style cookie - soft when fresh, hard when stale - a cake and
therefore vat-free?
Is it truly essential - they weren't available when I was a child?
Is a fig roll a cake?
etc.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:30:31 +0100, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:33:48 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
><toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> scrawled in the dust...
>
>>Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>>>> "But," you respond, "She isn't dead yet."
>>>>
>>>> She will be if she gets to hear the last five minutes of Saturday PM.
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016gw6
>>>>
>>>> With echoes of The Great Jaffa Cake Debacle, it seems HMRC is going to
>>>> court to declare that flapjacks are sweets, not cakes. This could all
>>>> turn very nasty - especially if Ambridge gets involved.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10723537/Flapjacks-come-unstuck-tribunal-rules-treats-not-cakes.html>
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>
>>> This was discussed on last evening’s “PM”. It matters because of the VAT
>>> levied, can they be made at home or not, but I still can’t see it’s can be
>>> a sweet when it’s made as though it’s a cake. Maybe the Food Prog or
>>> Kitchen Cabinet will elucidate.
>>>
>>> Sincerely Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>ISTR that the definition of a biscuit is something like: A baked item that
>>is crisp but goes soft when stale.
>>
>>Similarly, the definition of a cake being: A baked item that is soft but
>>goes hard when stale.
>
>Several things about the whole thing baffle me - and when the line is drawn
>between biscuits (vatable) and cake (vat-free) - always have done. This
>time they seem to have decided to call flapjacks a sweet - definitely
>vatable.
>
>IME, flapjacks can fall into either cake or biscuit class, depending upon
>the baker, which recipe they use, and whether they burn them. I've never
>had any long enough to go stale, even when I've singed them a bit.
>
>The main point of bafflement is that to be vat-free, a foodstuff must fall
>into the 'essential food' class. How on earth did cake get into that
>category, but not biscuits/crackers/savoury snacks?
>
This point was covered in the last five minutes of Saturday's PM that
Chris and I each listened to. It really was quite interesting enough
without my having to dredge up a not-very-good Jill-joke.

Back in the day, they said, cakes were considered to be things people
(for people, read, housewives) made at home in their kitchens and were
not really a significant presence in the average shop. Biscuits on the
other hand, they said, were usually made in factories. Nice things
made in factories should be taxed, they said. Nice things made at home
should not.

>There are, of course, other questions:
>Is an American-style cookie - soft when fresh, hard when stale - a cake and
>therefore vat-free?
>Is it truly essential - they weren't available when I was a child?
>Is a fig roll a cake?
>etc.

It's noted that it is a particular brand of flapjack which is under
scrutiny because of the particular way it is made (I'm sorry I can't
remember the details but you can always go back to PM) but it is quite
possible that HMRC have realised that times have changed and that this
might be the thin end of the vanilla slice in terms of revisiting the
taxation of nice things.

Nick

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:10:33 +0100, Nick Odell
<nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> scrawled in the dust...

>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:30:31 +0100, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:33:48 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
>><toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> scrawled in the dust...
>>
>>>Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>> Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>>>>> "But," you respond, "She isn't dead yet."
>>>>>
>>>>> She will be if she gets to hear the last five minutes of Saturday PM.
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016gw6
>>>>>
>>>>> With echoes of The Great Jaffa Cake Debacle, it seems HMRC is going to
>>>>> court to declare that flapjacks are sweets, not cakes. This could all
>>>>> turn very nasty - especially if Ambridge gets involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10723537/Flapjacks-come-unstuck-tribunal-rules-treats-not-cakes.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This was discussed on last evening’s “PM”. It matters because of the VAT
>>>> levied, can they be made at home or not, but I still can’t see it’s can be
>>>> a sweet when it’s made as though it’s a cake. Maybe the Food Prog or
>>>> Kitchen Cabinet will elucidate.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>ISTR that the definition of a biscuit is something like: A baked item that
>>>is crisp but goes soft when stale.
>>>
>>>Similarly, the definition of a cake being: A baked item that is soft but
>>>goes hard when stale.
>>
>>Several things about the whole thing baffle me - and when the line is drawn
>>between biscuits (vatable) and cake (vat-free) - always have done. This
>>time they seem to have decided to call flapjacks a sweet - definitely
>>vatable.
>>
>>IME, flapjacks can fall into either cake or biscuit class, depending upon
>>the baker, which recipe they use, and whether they burn them. I've never
>>had any long enough to go stale, even when I've singed them a bit.
>>
>>The main point of bafflement is that to be vat-free, a foodstuff must fall
>>into the 'essential food' class. How on earth did cake get into that
>>category, but not biscuits/crackers/savoury snacks?
>>
>This point was covered in the last five minutes of Saturday's PM that
>Chris and I each listened to. It really was quite interesting enough
>without my having to dredge up a not-very-good Jill-joke.
>
>Back in the day, they said, cakes were considered to be things people
>(for people, read, housewives) made at home in their kitchens and were
>not really a significant presence in the average shop. Biscuits on the
>other hand, they said, were usually made in factories. Nice things
>made in factories should be taxed, they said. Nice things made at home
>should not.

Hm, so no vat on flour, butter, sugar and eggs, makes some sort of sense
but biscuits use the same ingredients (usually minus the egg) and we mostly
had home-made biscuits. Shop-bought Maryland Cookies were an occasional
treat (I'm sure my mother could have made a good equivalent if she'd
thought about it).

>>There are, of course, other questions:
>>Is an American-style cookie - soft when fresh, hard when stale - a cake and
>>therefore vat-free?
>>Is it truly essential - they weren't available when I was a child?
>>Is a fig roll a cake?
>>etc.
>
>It's noted that it is a particular brand of flapjack which is under
>scrutiny because of the particular way it is made (I'm sorry I can't
>remember the details but you can always go back to PM) but it is quite
>possible that HMRC have realised that times have changed and that this
>might be the thin end of the vanilla slice in terms of revisiting the
>taxation of nice things.

I don't think flapjacks made in factories were a 'thing' in my childhood -
I'm not sure they are now, in the sort of quantities of actual biscuits,
like hobnobs and digestives.

I don't understand how/why anyone would call them sweets, but I'm not going
to listen to more PM in search of enlightenment.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:30:31 +0100, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:33:48 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
>> <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> scrawled in the dust...
>>
>>> Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>> Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>>>>> "But," you respond, "She isn't dead yet."
>>>>>
>>>>> She will be if she gets to hear the last five minutes of Saturday PM.
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016gw6
>>>>>
>>>>> With echoes of The Great Jaffa Cake Debacle, it seems HMRC is going to
>>>>> court to declare that flapjacks are sweets, not cakes. This could all
>>>>> turn very nasty - especially if Ambridge gets involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10723537/Flapjacks-come-unstuck-tribunal-rules-treats-not-cakes.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This was discussed on last evening’s “PM”. It matters because of the VAT
>>>> levied, can they be made at home or not, but I still can’t see it’s can be
>>>> a sweet when it’s made as though it’s a cake. Maybe the Food Prog or
>>>> Kitchen Cabinet will elucidate.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ISTR that the definition of a biscuit is something like: A baked item that
>>> is crisp but goes soft when stale.
>>>
>>> Similarly, the definition of a cake being: A baked item that is soft but
>>> goes hard when stale.
>>
>> Several things about the whole thing baffle me - and when the line is drawn
>> between biscuits (vatable) and cake (vat-free) - always have done. This
>> time they seem to have decided to call flapjacks a sweet - definitely
>> vatable.
>>
>> IME, flapjacks can fall into either cake or biscuit class, depending upon
>> the baker, which recipe they use, and whether they burn them. I've never
>> had any long enough to go stale, even when I've singed them a bit.
>>
>> The main point of bafflement is that to be vat-free, a foodstuff must fall
>> into the 'essential food' class. How on earth did cake get into that
>> category, but not biscuits/crackers/savoury snacks?
>>
> This point was covered in the last five minutes of Saturday's PM that
> Chris and I each listened to. It really was quite interesting enough
> without my having to dredge up a not-very-good Jill-joke.
>
> Back in the day, they said, cakes were considered to be things people
> (for people, read, housewives) made at home in their kitchens and were
> not really a significant presence in the average shop. Biscuits on the
> other hand, they said, were usually made in factories. Nice things
> made in factories should be taxed, they said. Nice things made at home
> should not.
>
>> There are, of course, other questions:
>> Is an American-style cookie - soft when fresh, hard when stale - a cake and
>> therefore vat-free?
>> Is it truly essential - they weren't available when I was a child?
>> Is a fig roll a cake?
>> etc.
>
> It's noted that it is a particular brand of flapjack which is under
> scrutiny because of the particular way it is made (I'm sorry I can't
> remember the details but you can always go back to PM) but it is quite
> possible that HMRC have realised that times have changed and that this
> might be the thin end of the vanilla slice in terms of revisiting the
> taxation of nice things.
>
> Nick
>

Whispers. Reading celebrates the 200th anniversary of the beginning of
Huntley & Palmer this year.

Tiny knicker flash, my grandparents met while working at H & P. He was in
accounts and she was an ‘enrober’. Dunking the biscuits in the chocolate.
She would have begun there when she came to live in Reading in 1910 I
suppose, being 14. My grandad was younger than her, by four years, so
presumably he joined them in 1914. They were married in 1919.

Sincerely Chris