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aus+uk / aus.aviation / Re: What a Bonza idea

SubjectAuthor
* What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
+- Re: What a Bonza ideaMountain Magpie
+- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
+* Re: What a Bonza ideaSylvia Else
|+* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||+* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
|||`- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||`* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
|| `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||  `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   +* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   |+* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   ||`* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   || `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   ||  `* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   ||   `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   ||    `* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   ||     `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   ||      +- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   ||      `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||   ||       `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   ||        `- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   |`* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
||   | +- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   | +* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   | |`* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
||   | | +* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||   | | |+* Re: What a Bonza ideaNews 2021
||   | | ||`- Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||   | | |`* Re: What a Bonza ideaPetzl
||   | | | `- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   | | `* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   | |  `* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
||   | |   +- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   | |   +- Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||   | |   `- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   | +- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   | `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||   |  +* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   |  |`* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   |  | `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   |  |  `- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||   |  `* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
||   |   `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||   |    `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   |     `* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
||   |      `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||   |       +- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||   |       `- Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
||   `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||    `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||     `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||      `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||       `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||        +* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||        |`* Re: What a Bonza ideaNews 2021
||        | `- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||        `* Re: What a Bonza ideaNews 2021
||         `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
||          `* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
||           +- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
||           `* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
||            `- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
|+* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
||`- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
|`* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
| +* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
| |+* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
| ||`- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
| |+* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
| ||+* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
| |||+* Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
| ||||`- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
| |||`* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
| ||| `* Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
| |||  `- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
| ||`- Re: What a Bonza ideaMountain Magpie
| |`* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
| | +* Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
| | |`* Re: What a Bonza ideakeithr0
| | | `- Re: What a Bonza ideaRod Speed
| | `- Re: What a Bonza ideaDaryl
| `- Re: What a Bonza ideaMountain Magpie
+* Re: What a Bonza ideaPetzl
|`- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison
`- Re: What a Bonza ideaPhil Allison

Pages:1234
Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: dwalf...@westpine.com.au (Daryl)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:10:13 +1100
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 by: Daryl - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:10 UTC

On 12/10/21 6:55 pm, Phil Allison the fuckwit wrote:
>
> Daryl the Cokhead wrote:
> =====================
>>>
>>>>> ** The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix " and so has not been.
>>>>> Just buried a bit deeper.
>>>>>
>>>> If they can make them fly safely without crashing then most would
>>>> consider that "fixed".
>>>
>>> ** Most who - idiots like you ?
>>
>> The huge numbers of the population that wouldn't have a clue or care
>> what type of aircraft they fly on.
>
> ** WRONG !!!!!!!!

On numerous occasions I've asked people who have just flown somewhere
what type of aircraft they flew on and 95% neither know or care, not a
scientific survey by any means but no doubt about my result.
Have you done a post flight survey??
>
>
>>>> Only time will tell if the Max turns out to be a safe aircraft and I
>>>> would think twice before flying on one.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ** Whenever Daryl goes the the races - he only lays each way bets.
>>
>> I don't go to the races and I don't lay bets, do you?
>
> ** It was a joke - Joyce.

That's a first.
>
> You just took a blatant " each way bet " - right on this NG.
>

No I didn't, I never once said that I would be happy to fly on a Max and
whether or not it ends up with an acceptable safety record has nothing
to do with what I do or say.

--
Daryl

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: dwalf...@westpine.com.au (Daryl)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:15:37 +1100
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 by: Daryl - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:15 UTC

On 12/10/21 6:56 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 12/10/2021 12:30 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> And even if they do, they will likely lease
>> them cheaper than the A320neo.
>
> What evidence do you have for that other than Boeings desperation?

Nothing other than a reasonable?
Even if the general public doesn't care what type of aircraft they fly
in you can bet that the airlines and their pilots do so its logical to
assume that Boeing will be doing whatever is necessary to sell the
things and lowering the price can be a good way of making sales.

--
Daryl

Re: What a Bonza idea

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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:18 UTC

Daryl the Dickhead wrote:
====================

> All correct but I've never seen or heard anything that says that a 737
> Max can't be flown manually safely with the MCAS disabled,

** What YOU have never see is irrelevant ??
If MCAS is not important to safe flying - why is it even there?
Your reasoning is completely asinine, as usual.

> Knowing what they know now plus with the additional sensors and revised
> software its highly unlikely that the situations that caused those 2
> crashes would reoccur.

** Never the issue.
MAX jets are unstable in pitch up without MCAS working properly.

> I agree that Boeing should be held criminally liable for their failures
> but that's a different issue to the state of the Max now.

** Massive straw man, no-one ever said otherwise.

...... Phil

Re: What a Bonza idea

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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:23 UTC

Daryl the Cockhead wrote:
=====================
>>
> >>>>> ** The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix " and so has not been.
> >>>>> Just buried a bit deeper.
> >>>>>
> >>>> If they can make them fly safely without crashing then most would
> >>>> consider that "fixed".
> >>>
> >>> ** Most who - idiots like you ?
> >>
> >> The huge numbers of the population that wouldn't have a clue or care
> >> what type of aircraft they fly on.
> >
> > ** WRONG !!!!!!!!
>
> On numerous occasions I've asked people who have just flown somewhere
> what type of aircraft they flew on

** TOTALLY FUCKING IRRELEVANT !!!!!!!!!!!

There are simply no MAX jets flying here for anyone to worry about.


> >>>> Only time will tell if the Max turns out to be a safe aircraft and I
> >>>> would think twice before flying on one.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ** Whenever Daryl goes the the races - he only lays each way bets.
> >>
> >> I don't go to the races and I don't lay bets, do you?
> >
> > ** It was a joke - Joyce.
> >
> > You just took a blatant " each way bet " - right on this NG.
> >
> No I didn't,

** Jesus Fucking Christ - how dumb are you you ???

1 You claim the plane is now safe and perfectly fine.
2. But you will not fly on one.

= AN EACH WAY BET - FUCKWIT !!!

........ Phil

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 02:01:19 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:01 UTC

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
> Daryl wrote

>> All correct but I've never seen or heard anything that says that a
>> 737 Max can't be flown manually safely with the MCAS disabled,

> If MCAS is not important to safe flying - why is it even there?

Its there in case something causes the angle of attack to get too far
out of line so that there is an increased risk of an unrecoverable stall.

Not because it isn't possible to fly it manually.

And the proof of that is that MCAS doesn’t intervene
at all in the absolute vast majority of flights.

>> Knowing what they know now plus with the additional sensors
>> and revised software its highly unlikely that the situations that
>> caused those 2 crashes would reoccur.

> Never the issue.

Corse it is with your stupid claim that another
crash due to MCAS is guaranteed.

> MAX jets are unstable in pitch up without MCAS working properly.

You are wrong, as always.

>> I agree that Boeing should be held criminally liable for their failures
>> but that's a different issue to the state of the Max now.

Re: What a Bonza idea

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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:10 UTC

Rod Speed wrote:
> Phil Allison <palli...@gmail.com> wrote
> > Daryl wrote
>
> >> All correct but I've never seen or heard anything that says that a
> >> 737 Max can't be flown manually safely with the MCAS disabled,
>
> > If MCAS is not important to safe flying - why is it even there?
>
> Its there in case something causes the angle of attack to get too far
> out of line

** Something = the pilot - you damn liar.
The plane over reacts to pitch up inputs.

> Not because it isn't possible to fly it manually.

** More lies, that was never said by me.

> And the proof of that is that MCAS doesn’t intervene
> at all in the absolute vast majority of flights.

** No relevance to safety at all.

> >> Knowing what they know now plus with the additional sensors
> >> and revised software its highly unlikely that the situations that
> >> caused those 2 crashes would reoccur.
>
> > Never the issue.
>
> Corse it is with your stupid claim that another
> crash due to MCAS is guaranteed.

** Never said that either.

....... Phil

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 08:25:13 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:25 UTC

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Phil Allison <palli...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Daryl wrote

>>>> All correct but I've never seen or heard anything that says that a
>>>> 737 Max can't be flown manually safely with the MCAS disabled,

>>> If MCAS is not important to safe flying - why is it even there?

>> Its there in case something causes the
>> angle of attack to get too far out of line

> Something = the pilot

Wrong, as always. It can be some other system
like the autopilot, turbulence, etc etc etc.

> The plane over reacts to pitch up inputs.

More mindless pig ignorant bullshit.

>> Not because it isn't possible to fly it manually.

>> And the proof of that is that MCAS doesn’t intervene
>> at all in the absolute vast majority of flights.

>>>> Knowing what they know now plus with the additional sensors
>>>> and revised software its highly unlikely that the situations that
>>>> caused those 2 crashes would reoccur.

>>> Never the issue.

>> Corse it is with your stupid claim that another
>> crash due to MCAS is guaranteed.

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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:44 UTC

Phil Allison wrote:
--------------------
>
> it's not April 1, so this is for real.
> A fleet of B737 MAX jets flying main & regional routes around Australia at one class, budget prices. Just what we've all been waiting for.
>
> https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/new-lowcost-airline-bonza-preparing-for-takeoff-in-early-2022/news-story/a887feafa54a833a8c3f8330901aaedb
>
> Starting a new airline with notoriously dodgy planes at this time has to be a massive triumph of optimism over experience.
>
** News item on Channel 9.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZE4I5l7DjA

Does not inspire much confidence.
The whole idea is sitting way out on a limb and sawing off the wrong end.

Seems only three MAXs will be involved initially.
Big toe in water stuff.

...... Phil

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: new...@woa.com.au (News 2021)
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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:52:42 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: News 2021 - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:52 UTC

On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:10:13 +1100, Daryl scribed:

> On 12/10/21 6:55 pm, Phil Allison the fuckwit wrote:
>>
>> Daryl the Cokhead wrote:
>> =====================
>>>>
>>>>>> ** The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix " and so has
>>>>>> not been.
>>>>>> Just buried a bit deeper.
>>>>>>
>>>>> If they can make them fly safely without crashing then most would
>>>>> consider that "fixed".
>>>>
>>>> ** Most who - idiots like you ?
>>>
>>> The huge numbers of the population that wouldn't have a clue or care
>>> what type of aircraft they fly on.
>>
>> ** WRONG !!!!!!!!
>
> On numerous occasions I've asked people who have just flown somewhere
> what type of aircraft they flew on and 95% neither know or care, not a
> scientific survey by any means but no doubt about my result.
> Have you done a post flight survey??

When fly by wire became the norm, I just gave up flying. The pre flight
security bullshit was the last straw.

Perhaps I should never have watched Air Crash Investigations, but years
of working with electronics gave me a healthy distrust of the reliability
of a flying brick.

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: new...@woa.com.au (News 2021)
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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:54:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: News 2021 - Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:54 UTC

On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 04:23:42 -0700, Phil Allison scribed:

> Daryl the Cockhead wrote:
> =====================
>>>
>> >>>>> ** The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix " and so
>> >>>>> has not been.
>> >>>>> Just buried a bit deeper.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> If they can make them fly safely without crashing then most would
>> >>>> consider that "fixed".
>> >>>
>> >>> ** Most who - idiots like you ?
>> >>
>> >> The huge numbers of the population that wouldn't have a clue or care
>> >> what type of aircraft they fly on.
>> >
>> > ** WRONG !!!!!!!!
>>
>> On numerous occasions I've asked people who have just flown somewhere
>> what type of aircraft they flew on
>
> ** TOTALLY FUCKING IRRELEVANT !!!!!!!!!!!
>
> There are simply no MAX jets flying here for anyone to worry about.

The question was do you know what type of aircraft you have just flown
on? IME also Very few people even cared.

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: dwalf...@westpine.com.au (Daryl)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
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 by: Daryl - Wed, 13 Oct 2021 00:05 UTC

On 13/10/21 10:52 am, News 2021 wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:10:13 +1100, Daryl scribed:
>
>> On 12/10/21 6:55 pm, Phil Allison the fuckwit wrote:
>>>
>>> Daryl the Cokhead wrote:
>>> =====================
>>>>>
>>>>>>> ** The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix " and so has
>>>>>>> not been.
>>>>>>> Just buried a bit deeper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they can make them fly safely without crashing then most would
>>>>>> consider that "fixed".
>>>>>
>>>>> ** Most who - idiots like you ?
>>>>
>>>> The huge numbers of the population that wouldn't have a clue or care
>>>> what type of aircraft they fly on.
>>>
>>> ** WRONG !!!!!!!!
>>
>> On numerous occasions I've asked people who have just flown somewhere
>> what type of aircraft they flew on and 95% neither know or care, not a
>> scientific survey by any means but no doubt about my result.
>> Have you done a post flight survey??
>
> When fly by wire became the norm, I just gave up flying.

I never thought that fly by wire only was a great idea but so far
overall its proven to be reliable and safe.

The pre flight
> security bullshit was the last straw.

Know what you mean, it can be a PITA and I've had a couple of "robust"
discussions with a couple of security droids, I've also had a few laughs
with them so its not all bad.
>
> Perhaps I should never have watched Air Crash Investigations, but years
> of working with electronics gave me a healthy distrust of the reliability
> of a flying brick.
>

Don't blame you for being concerned but the reliability of aircraft
electronics is excellent, trouble is it only takes on failure that ends
in disaster for people to lose confidence.

--
Daryl

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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Wed, 13 Oct 2021 00:43 UTC

News 2021 wrote:
=================
>>
> >> >>>>> ** The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix " and so
> >> >>>>> has not been.
> >> >>>>> Just buried a bit deeper.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> If they can make them fly safely without crashing then most would
> >> >>>> consider that "fixed".
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ** Most who - idiots like you ?
> >> >>
> >> >> The huge numbers of the population that wouldn't have a clue or care
> >> >> what type of aircraft they fly on.
> >> >
> >> > ** WRONG !!!!!!!!
> >>
> >> On numerous occasions I've asked people who have just flown somewhere
> >> what type of aircraft they flew on
> >
> > ** TOTALLY FUCKING IRRELEVANT !!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > There are simply no MAX jets flying here for anyone to worry about.
>
> The question was do you know what type of aircraft you have just flown
> on? IME also Very few people even cared.

** So fucking what ? Jet aircraft all look very similar.

The public reputations of the Comet, the Lockheed Electra and the DC 10
were destroyed after a few well publicised crashes.
The mechanical flaws in each case were easily fixed and it was done.
Made no difference in the public mind.
People shied away and airlines stopped buying them.

FYI:
Boeing do not call the planes "MAX" any more for that reason.

....... Phil

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 by: Phil Allison - Wed, 13 Oct 2021 00:50 UTC

Daryl the Fuckhead wrote:
====================
> >
> > When fly by wire became the norm, I just gave up flying.
>
> I never thought that fly by wire only was a great idea but so far
> overall its proven to be reliable and safe.

** More stupid nonsense.

An absurd number of Boeing and Airbus planes have crashed, killing all on board solely due to the premature & naive use of "fly by wire" in passenger jets.

> Don't blame you for being concerned but the reliability of aircraft
> electronics is excellent, trouble is it only takes on failure that ends
> in disaster for people to lose confidence.

** FFS yet another " each way bet" from this congenital idiot.

....... Phil

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:09:59 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Wed, 13 Oct 2021 03:09 UTC

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
> Daryl wrote

>>> When fly by wire became the norm, I just gave up flying.

>> I never thought that fly by wire only was a great idea
>> but so far overall its proven to be reliable and safe.
> More stupid nonsense.

We'll see...
> An absurd number of Boeing and Airbus planes have
> crashed, killing all on board solely due to the premature
> & naive use of "fly by wire" in passenger jets.

In fact both the 737 and A320 have been far
more reliable and have had a lower crash
level than the previous pre fly by wire heavys.

>> Don't blame you for being concerned but the reliability
>> of aircraft electronics is excellent, trouble is it only takes
>> on failure that ends in disaster for people to lose confidence.

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: use...@account.invalid (keithr0)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:31:47 +1000
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 by: keithr0 - Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:31 UTC

On 12/10/2021 8:03 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 12/10/21 6:54 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 12/10/2021 1:41 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Daryl wrote
>>>
>>>>>> And plenty like us who do remember which plane crashed twice
>>>>>> realise that the problem has been fixed and won't happen again.
>>>
>>>> That is not a  " realise"  that is a pious hope.
>>>
>>> Nope, there wont be any more crashes due to that issue, you watch.
>>>
>>> Neither Boeing nor the FAA are actually that stupid.
>>>
>>>> The two 737MAX crashes were the * biggest
>>>> ever scandal *  in passenger aviation history.
>>>
>>>> Clear criminal behavior by Boeing staff was at the core.
>>>
>>> Irrelevant to whether we will see anymore of the MAXs crash for that
>>> reason.
>>>
>>>>> Yes, after the shit hit the fan in such a big way I doubt that
>>>>> Boeing or
>>>>> FAA would be stupid enough to allow the Max to fly if it wasn't fixed.
>>>
>>>> The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix "
>>>
>>> More of your mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Of course its possible to
>>> fix using just a single sensor and to train the pilots in how to
>>> override
>>> the MCAS if it does fuck up again.
>>
>> The basic problem is the fucked up aerodynamics, MCAS was a
>> workaround, now there are workarounds to that workaround.
>>
>> Had Boeing not been so eager to match the Neo, they wouldn't have gone
>> cheap and built in a single point of failure, and would have included
>> MCAS in the documentation.
>>
>> I've worked on a lot of high reliability systems and the mantra has
>> always been no single points of failure *EVER*. That goes doubly or
>> more with systems where people die when there are failures.
>
> All correct but I've never seen or heard anything that says that a 737
> Max can't be flown manually safely with the MCAS disabled, the main
> reasons for the 2 crashes was faulty single senors plus the pilots
> weren't trained on MCAS and didn't know what it was let alone how to
> disable it in the event of a problem.
> Knowing what they know now plus with the additional sensors and revised
> software its highly unlikely that the situations that caused those 2
> crashes would reoccur.
> I agree that Boeing should be held criminally liable for their failures
> but that's a different issue to the state of the Max now.
>
The assessment by professional pilots that I have seen reckon that the
Max could be flown without problem without the MCAS *as long as the
pilots received training on the Maxs flying characteristic*.

The problem was that the A320NEO was so similar to the A320CEO that
pilots could transfer without special training, and Boeing were trying
to do the same thing.

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: use...@account.invalid (keithr0)
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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
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 by: keithr0 - Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:36 UTC

On 12/10/2021 6:25 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
> keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>> And even if they do, they will likely lease
>>> them cheaper than the A320neo.
>
>> What evidence do you have for that
>
> The fact that its been grounded for more than a year, stupid.
>> other than Boeings desperation?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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From: use...@account.invalid (keithr0)
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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:44:41 +1000
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 by: keithr0 - Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:44 UTC

On 13/10/2021 10:50 am, Phil Allison wrote:
> Daryl the Fuckhead wrote:
> ====================
>>>
>>> When fly by wire became the norm, I just gave up flying.
>>
>> I never thought that fly by wire only was a great idea but so far
>> overall its proven to be reliable and safe.
>
> ** More stupid nonsense.
>
> An absurd number of Boeing and Airbus planes have crashed, killing all on board solely due to the premature & naive use of "fly by wire" in passenger jets.

The Max isn't even fly by wire, it still has bits of string attached to
the controls that run to the hydraulic packs. The electronics is
essentially connected in parallel. Not a lot different to the original
1960s system, just with bells and whistles attached.

>> Don't blame you for being concerned but the reliability of aircraft
>> electronics is excellent, trouble is it only takes on failure that ends
>> in disaster for people to lose confidence.
>
> ** FFS yet another " each way bet" from this congenital idiot.

Most avionics, Boeings cheap arsed MCAS design aside is duplicated or
triplicated.

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:03:08 +1100
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 by: Rod Speed - Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:03 UTC

keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> And even if they do, they will likely lease
>>>> them cheaper than the A320neo.
>>
>>> What evidence do you have for that
>>
>> The fact that its been grounded for more than a year, stupid.
>>> other than Boeings desperation?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It isn't desperation, just basic business, fuckwit.

Re: What a Bonza idea

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Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:16 UTC

keithr0= pommy fucking idiot wrote:
==========================
>>
> >>> When fly by wire became the norm, I just gave up flying.
> >>
> >> I never thought that fly by wire only was a great idea but so far
> >> overall its proven to be reliable and safe.
> >
> > ** More stupid nonsense.
> >
> > An absurd number of Boeing and Airbus planes have crashed, killing all on board
> > solely due to the premature & naive use of "fly by wire" in passenger jets.
>
> The Max isn't even fly by wire,

** My post did not say it was - fuckhead.

> >> Don't blame you for being concerned but the reliability of aircraft
> >> electronics is excellent, trouble is it only takes one failure that ends
> >> in disaster for people to lose confidence.
> >
> > ** FFS yet another " each way bet" from this congenital idiot.
>
> Most avionics, Boeings cheap arsed MCAS design aside is duplicated or
> triplicated.

** The OP was not referring to singe point equipment failures.

Try to reading for the actual meaning sometime.

....... Phil

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: dwalf...@westpine.com.au (Daryl)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
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 by: Daryl - Thu, 14 Oct 2021 03:41 UTC

On 14/10/21 10:31 am, keithr0 wrote:
> On 12/10/2021 8:03 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 12/10/21 6:54 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 12/10/2021 1:41 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Daryl wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>> And plenty like us who do remember which plane crashed twice
>>>>>>> realise that the problem has been fixed and won't happen again.
>>>>
>>>>> That is not a  " realise"  that is a pious hope.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, there wont be any more crashes due to that issue, you watch.
>>>>
>>>> Neither Boeing nor the FAA are actually that stupid.
>>>>
>>>>> The two 737MAX crashes were the * biggest
>>>>> ever scandal *  in passenger aviation history.
>>>>
>>>>> Clear criminal behavior by Boeing staff was at the core.
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant to whether we will see anymore of the MAXs crash for that
>>>> reason.
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, after the shit hit the fan in such a big way I doubt that
>>>>>> Boeing or
>>>>>> FAA would be stupid enough to allow the Max to fly if it wasn't
>>>>>> fixed.
>>>>
>>>>> The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix "
>>>>
>>>> More of your mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Of course its possible to
>>>> fix using just a single sensor and to train the pilots in how to
>>>> override
>>>> the MCAS if it does fuck up again.
>>>
>>> The basic problem is the fucked up aerodynamics, MCAS was a
>>> workaround, now there are workarounds to that workaround.
>>>
>>> Had Boeing not been so eager to match the Neo, they wouldn't have
>>> gone cheap and built in a single point of failure, and would have
>>> included MCAS in the documentation.
>>>
>>> I've worked on a lot of high reliability systems and the mantra has
>>> always been no single points of failure *EVER*. That goes doubly or
>>> more with systems where people die when there are failures.
>>
>> All correct but I've never seen or heard anything that says that a 737
>> Max can't be flown manually safely with the MCAS disabled, the main
>> reasons for the 2 crashes was faulty single senors plus the pilots
>> weren't trained on MCAS and didn't know what it was let alone how to
>> disable it in the event of a problem.
>> Knowing what they know now plus with the additional sensors and
>> revised software its highly unlikely that the situations that caused
>> those 2 crashes would reoccur.
>> I agree that Boeing should be held criminally liable for their
>> failures but that's a different issue to the state of the Max now.
>>
> The assessment by professional pilots that I have seen reckon that the
> Max could be flown without problem without the MCAS *as long as the
> pilots received training on the Maxs flying characteristic*.

That makes sense, can't see it being allowed to fly if it couldn't be
flown manually with MCAS disabled.
>
> The problem was that the A320NEO was so similar to the A320CEO that
> pilots could transfer without special training, and Boeing were trying
> to do the same thing.
>
In the end what airlines buys will come down to cost and whether or not
they think the Max is sorted and safe.

--
Daryl

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 14 Oct 2021 04:09 UTC

Daryl has no brain at all
===============

>
> > The assessment by professional pilots that I have seen reckon that the
> > Max could be flown without problem without the MCAS *as long as the
> > pilots received training on the Maxs flying characteristic*.

** Made up, fake bullshit.

> That makes sense,

** Concocted lies are like that.


> can't see it being allowed to fly if it couldn't be
> flown manually with MCAS disabled.

** Straw man - not what was ever said.

>
> In the end what airlines buys will come down to cost and whether or not they think the MAX is sorted and safe.
>

** Then explain why that did NOT happen with the Comet, the Lockheed Electra or the DC10 ?

Hint: pax are the key.

....... Phil

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 by: keithr0 - Fri, 15 Oct 2021 06:43 UTC

On 14/10/2021 2:09 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Daryl has no brain at all
> ===============
>
>>
>>> The assessment by professional pilots that I have seen reckon that the
>>> Max could be flown without problem without the MCAS *as long as the
>>> pilots received training on the Maxs flying characteristic*.
>
> ** Made up, fake bullshit.
>
>> That makes sense,
>
> ** Concocted lies are like that.
>
>
>> can't see it being allowed to fly if it couldn't be
>> flown manually with MCAS disabled.
>
> ** Straw man - not what was ever said.
>
>>
>> In the end what airlines buys will come down to cost and whether or not they think the MAX is sorted and safe.
>>
>
> ** Then explain why that did NOT happen with the Comet, the Lockheed Electra or the DC10 ?

The Electra and the DC10 continued to fly long after the problems had
been sorted.

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: use...@account.invalid (keithr0)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:49:43 +1000
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 by: keithr0 - Fri, 15 Oct 2021 06:49 UTC

On 12/10/2021 6:21 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
> keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Daryl wrote
>
>>>>>> And plenty like us who do remember which plane crashed twice
>>>>>> realise that the problem has been fixed and won't happen again.
>>>
>>>> That is not a  " realise"  that is a pious hope.
>>>
>>> Nope, there wont be any more crashes due to that issue, you watch.
>>>
>>> Neither Boeing nor the FAA are actually that stupid.
>>>
>>>> The two 737MAX crashes were the * biggest
>>>> ever scandal *  in passenger aviation history.
>>>
>>>> Clear criminal behavior by Boeing staff was at the core.
>>>
>>> Irrelevant to whether we will see anymore of the MAXs crash for that
>>> reason.
>>>
>>>>> Yes, after the shit hit the fan in such a big way I doubt that
>>>>> Boeing or
>>>>> FAA would be stupid enough to allow the Max to fly if it wasn't fixed.
>>>
>>>> The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix "
>>>
>>> More of your mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Of course its possible to
>>> fix using just a single sensor and to train the pilots in how to
>>> override
>>> the MCAS if it does fuck up again.
>
>> The basic problem is the fucked up aerodynamics,
>
> Yep.
>
>> MCAS was a workaround,
>
> Nope, it fixed the problem when done properly.
>
>> now there are workarounds to that workaround.
>
> More of your mindless bullshit. Its now been done properly
> with more than one sensor and the pilots have been told
> about it so they can disable it if it fails, as all systems can.

It's not just the sensor, the software had more holes than a tonne of
Swiss cheese. The FAA audited it and found even more problems than just
MCAS. Boeings software seems to be shit in general, that's why they are
going to have to fly the Starliner again at their own expense ($600M+)
after NASA had such confidence in it that they did a line by line audit.

>> Had Boeing not been so eager to match the Neo, they wouldn't have gone
>> cheap and built in a single point of failure,
>
> More of your mindless bullshit. The single sensor had nothing
> to do with matching the neo, it was just another design fuckup.
>
>> and would have included MCAS in the documentation.
>
> And the training.
>
>> I've worked on a lot of high reliability systems and the mantra has
>> always been no single points of failure *EVER*.
>
> And Boeing has done it like that forever now.
>
> And just fucked up with MCAS. And haven't now, otherwise
> the FAA wouldn’t have allowed it to fly again.
>
> So its stupid to claim that its just a workaround on a workaround.
>
>> That goes doubly or more with systems where people die when there are
>> failures.
>

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: dwalf...@westpine.com.au (Daryl)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 21:18:13 +1100
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 by: Daryl - Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:18 UTC

On 15/10/21 5:43 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 14/10/2021 2:09 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
>> Daryl has no brain at all
>> ===============
>>
>>>
>>>> The assessment by professional pilots that I have seen reckon that the
>>>> Max could be flown without problem without the MCAS *as long as the
>>>> pilots received training on the Maxs flying characteristic*.
>>
>> **   Made up, fake bullshit.
>>
>>> That makes sense,
>>
>> **  Concocted lies are like that.
>>
>>> can't see it being allowed to fly if it couldn't be
>>> flown manually with MCAS disabled.
>>
>> ** Straw man -  not what was ever said.
>>
>>>
>>> In the end what airlines buys will come down to cost and whether or
>>> not they think the MAX is sorted and safe.
>>>
>>
>> ** Then explain why that did  NOT happen with the Comet, the Lockheed
>> Electra or the DC10 ?
>
> The Electra and the DC10 continued to fly long after the problems had
> been sorted.

Still some Electras flying commercially doing freight and fire bombing.

--
Daryl

Re: What a Bonza idea

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From: dwalf...@westpine.com.au (Daryl)
Newsgroups: aus.aviation
Subject: Re: What a Bonza idea
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 21:20:35 +1100
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 by: Daryl - Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:20 UTC

On 15/10/21 5:49 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 12/10/2021 6:21 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>> keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Daryl wrote
>>
>>>>>>> And plenty like us who do remember which plane crashed twice
>>>>>>> realise that the problem has been fixed and won't happen again.
>>>>
>>>>> That is not a  " realise"  that is a pious hope.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, there wont be any more crashes due to that issue, you watch.
>>>>
>>>> Neither Boeing nor the FAA are actually that stupid.
>>>>
>>>>> The two 737MAX crashes were the * biggest
>>>>> ever scandal *  in passenger aviation history.
>>>>
>>>>> Clear criminal behavior by Boeing staff was at the core.
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant to whether we will see anymore of the MAXs crash for that
>>>> reason.
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, after the shit hit the fan in such a big way I doubt that
>>>>>> Boeing or
>>>>>> FAA would be stupid enough to allow the Max to fly if it wasn't
>>>>>> fixed.
>>>>
>>>>> The basic flaw in the MAX is not possible to " fix "
>>>>
>>>> More of your mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Of course its possible to
>>>> fix using just a single sensor and to train the pilots in how to
>>>> override
>>>> the MCAS if it does fuck up again.
>>
>>> The basic problem is the fucked up aerodynamics,
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>>> MCAS was a workaround,
>>
>> Nope, it fixed the problem when done properly.
>>
>>> now there are workarounds to that workaround.
>>
>> More of your mindless bullshit. Its now been done properly
>> with more than one sensor and the pilots have been told
>> about it so they can disable it if it fails, as all systems can.
>
> It's not just the sensor, the software had more holes than a tonne of
> Swiss cheese.

That's what happens when you sub contract the software out to a company
on the sub continent and expect the job to be done quickly and cheaply.

--
Daryl

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